My guess is you're thinking of the MZR Mazda motor when it is in USF2000 trim. They are very close to 170hp where as a good zetec (or pinto for that matter) is right around or a touch over 150hp.Originally Posted by lowside67
Very nice breakdown Greg! The biggest thing with operational costs is it can always be as big as you you wish (bank account dependent of course). I have experience in both FC and FB and so far have seen little difference in costs.
American racers last about 3 weekends unless you flip them on the rims. Then maybe 4! The fronts die first.
50 hours for rebuild, freshen head after 25-30 hours.
3 gallons of fuel/session
brake pad life varies a bunch. The ones I use last a season.
Regards,
Dan
“Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty.” -Peter Egan
I usually run a set of the Hoosiers for ~10 heat cycles, and then pass them on to other racers who probably get another 5-10 cycles out of them.
I'm running a Honda that was new in 2014, and there are no signs that a rebuild will be needed anytime soon. I'll run that engine at the Runoffs this year. And plan to run it next year too. I guess at some point I will need to budget for a rebuild. But have not reached that point yet.
Fuel: we run pump gas, so your $3.50/gallon estimate is good. And we consume about 1 gallon per 10 minutes of running (so 3 gal/30 minute session)
Brake pads: I run the PFC calipers. PFC pads are expensive at $300/axle set. But one set can last all season (at least 6+ weekends)
Currently, there are no engine differences between the classes and nothing that operationally would change the economics of the engine.
On tires, see the comment on bias vs. radials in the Zetec post above since the pintos don't run on radials. As far as the S2 vs FC Pinto tire comparison, I'll def3er to someone who's run both classes. This is a case of where there are significant differences in how the cars work that might affect tire life, but on the other hand they might cancel each other out.
Others can chime in here, but a budget re-build is about $3500 - that was bearings, gaskets, rings, new pistons, and standard head re-build, plus dyno. the oil pump, sleeves, dizzy, clutch & flywheel, crank and rods - none of that pricy stuff required any undue attention, and I was able to deliver and pick up. So for most people, $4K is the bottom end. I also had a quote at $7.5K, so there's your range.
Tires - ARs are about $700 M&B, Hoosier about $1100 and Avons about $1200. I'll let others comment on the number of competitive cycles for each, but after 8 on the Hoosiers and Avons you are really looking at test/fam session rubber where ultimate performance is not the test criteria.
My experience is that AVGAS is typically about $1 more/gal than street unleaded premium. That's between half and two thirds the price of leaded track gas.
Scenario
In my scenario, I used 10 sessions per weekend, and 10 weekends per year. Several people have said that both are too high.
I have changed the on-line spreadsheet to 8 sessions per weekend (still assuming a Friday practice), and 8 weekends per year.
To update some information on Formula Vee.
Engines - while we do not have the longevity of a Honda or Mazda engine - the figure I got from Dave Carr at Autowerks is "it depends". We think 20 races between bottom end rebuilds (about 2 years) with a head cleaning maybe 4 time in there to keep the engine sharp is possible. I think and average engine rebuild of $1500 and a complete new engine at $4500 is probably accurate. Of course we are more sensitive to oil issues and many people do not run air cleaners which result in higher wear. He did mention one driver is over 60 races without a rebuild but that is an extreme.
I also found out that Majors drivers are getting from 6 to 12 heat cycles on a set of tires, so using last years tires for practice and qualifying, many FV drivers are buying only one set of tires a year but if we are standardizing on a 8 race season, 4 or 5 heat cycles per race, then theoretically starting with 2 new sets should work. Runoffs are a different animal, but if you use older tires for practice and early qualifying, even if you did ALL qualifying on a new set you are only talking 5 heat cycles.
Another aside - if two classes have the same yearly operating costs (excluding crashes) and one class costs $10K for the equipment and the other costs $30K, don't we have to amortize this somehow into the equation? Assuming the resale value is reasonable, there is a cost to restore the car to the original condition. So maybe a cost of ownership over 5 years would be another column.
ChrisZ
In my opinion, your cost structure should take into account gearbox rebuilds. There is a dramatic cost difference to this across the classes - ie this is a nil cost for most motorcycle engine classes while the cost to rebuild an FA gearbox is likely incurred more often and can be significant.
-Mark
Mark Uhlmann
Vancouver, Canada
'12 Stohr WF1
Yes, if you have a number for additional costs for a given class, please suggest it and I will put it in "Other weekend" column.
Do you have a number for FA gearbox cost and how many hours?
What class is PSL?
Engine rebuild cost for F600 would be 2500.00 (3500.00 if its a two stroke)
New car cost would be 30K
Used car cost would be around 15k
Thanks for making the spread sheet!
Psl
Ha. I was wondering when someone would notice that!
It doesn't exist. Yet.
Imagine an FF with a motorcycle engine, weighs 950 with driver. 1-liter engine restricted to make 115 HP (probably about 7500 RPM). Use 13x6 wheels and a hard-compound FF tire (such as the American Racers). Does FF lap times. Compatible with FF both in corners and down the straights (i.e. can be grouped together safely).
Another way of looking at it is: an F1000 without wings, restrictor on the engine, and wheels and tires as above.
Optionally put on a sports racer body. In other words, a P2 MC car without down-force, restrictor on the engine, and wheels and tires as above.
This has been discussed many times on apexspeed over the years. See these threads: "Formula D", "Open Wheel Miata", "Phoenix FS FS600", "The cheapest practical SR2", "Entry Level Formula Car", and "FS1000 Scalable to FB", "P3". The cars have been called "FD", "Formula Super 600", and "FS1000".
I'm interested in the version with a sports-racer body, which I'm calling "Prototipo Super Leggero", meaning super-light prototype. 'cause, you know, Italian's always cool when it comes to race cars.
I believe it's a cost-sweat-spot, and could get more people into the sport.
I'm going to build one in order to demonstrate the concept and to get the tires, springs, shocks, engine HP, and so on figured out. I think I will start with an older DSR, like a first-gen Stohr.
Last edited by holmberg; 08.24.17 at 9:54 PM.
operational cost is directly proportional as to is paying the bill,dad national racing 20k son pro racing 200k just did finish a club racing year on take offs, for about 900
Psl
I like the concept, and I think most of us LOVE the sound of motorcycle engines. While detuning the 1 litre to 115 HP will probably increase longevity, it may not be turning an RPM to give the 'right sound'. Can the 650 motorcycle engines be sourced from recyclers at a better price? If so, I think their top HP is in the ball park you are looking for. It is a bit lighter engine package and one of those engines turning 13,000 rpm sounds great !!
Hey Jim, how the hell are you.
If you really want to scare yourself, break it done by lap. When we were doing the pro series I remember thinking it was about $100 per lap for a weekend. And that didn't include travel,food or lodging for myself.
When people see I'm boating now, they say by quitting racing and taking up boat I jumped from the frying pan into the fire.I just smile and tell them I can pay my club dues, dockage, winter inside storage, insurance, maintenance, and fuel for the year for what one weekend of racing cost me. Racing for 40 years really conditioned me to thinking nothing about another grand here or there. Spin in turn 1 at Mid Ohio, flatten a new set of tires. Oh well, mount another set up. That's why when my boat guy come to me and says," hey Mark ya need this thing and it's $1500" I look at him and say "if it needs it why are you bothering me , just do it".
I do miss racing though.
Mark
I don't generally go into rant mode here and this has been beat around thousands of times but.... please.... for the love of dog, no more new classes. We have fragmented this sport so badly that we have very few competitors in any one class and over-all the numbers are down. We tend to get fixated on the new shiny object. However, we ignore that the new shiny object can be expensive and at the end of the day, not much better (and in some cases, worse) racing than the classes we have now (or I should say had a while ago).
Read this article.... go ahead.... I will wait. http://www.racer.com/more/viewpoints...l=&limitstart=
It is every conversation about racing I have had in the last year plus. While it is about the pro ranks, the same can be said for the amateur ranks. We had a system where to go pro open wheel, you started off in FF, then F2000, then FA. The result? Lots of cars for us amateurs to race knowing we will never go that next step. And the fundamental racing was great. Now we have the USF2000 which is similar to FC/F2000 but not completely compatible, Pro Mazada which is unlike anything else, and Indy Lights. Without the used feeder cars for us to play with, we decide the old stuff is outdated and "too expensive" so we think that developing new from scratch will be better and cheaper. And is any of it any better than a no-down force low hp FF then moving up to wings, power, more brakes and tires followed by rip your eyeballs out full ground effects, holly crap hp, and tires the width of the dual wheels on a truck combined?
If I were benevolent dictator (and to be honest, I am not sure I care all that much about the benevolent part), we would have a total in the SCCA of 11 classes. Four open wheel, four sedan/GT, and three Prototype. They would range from low hp entry level (think FV, FF, GT light, B-spec/Showroom Stock and SRF) to moderate downforce and hp (think FC, GT3, and P2) to blindingly fast "I'm giving her all she's got captain" (think FA, GT1, and P1). The more classes in the low hp is intentional. As you move up, you tend to have fewer people anyhow so consolidation means more competition.
I know, some will think I am a lunatic and others a god for saying that. Such is the world with different opinions. But truth is, we have a numbers problem. Whatever the cause (kids not interested, cars going the way of the Dodo, ADHD epidemic, too many other things to do with our dollars, etc.) we have to admit that the proliferation of classes and resulting confusion and fractionalization is not helping us gain members. I mean... people are even resorting to going boating instead! (disclaimer, I have sailed and water skied in the past and think that boating is great)
Sorry for the rant but I am a bit dismayed that this sport is losing participants. While I never thought it would last forever, I would like it to last long enough to go race at least once more before my DB-1 becomes lawn art.
Eric Little
Most of what you are saying is correct. But the Indy Lights reference is not. There is no SCCA class even close to an Indy Lights car. The closest was F5000. Indy Lights in all of its forms has been a class for 400 hp formula cars.
Decades ago SCCA made a good move by rewriting the rules for FC so the dominant car was the F2000. That market was just too good to leave alone so we now have F2000, USF2000, FM, FE, ProMazda and who know what else all going after the same basic market and now F4. Bottom line, no one is really doing all that well.
We used to laugh at ALMS for having 24 cars in 26 classes...
Exactly. I was not clear enough on that point. But that category will have a difficult time being an amateur level class but that is where it went. Mazda is using the feeder as a place to showcase their motor lineup. Good for them but questionable for the sport. Manufacturers need to make new things to gain market share. In my opinion racing needs stability to keep it reasonably affordable.
Eric Little
looks like a cool concept. thanks for putting this sheet together. One thing you should add to your sheet is an average for knocking a wheel off, crash repair etc.. some of the buy ins look interesting but then repairing them could be another story.
Anthony Carbone Jr.
SCCA SRF Gen3 #16
05 Porsche 997
Anthony:
The concept for a bike powered FF type car actually has been fairly well developed. Jay Novak and I batted this idea around for several years. We were both to the point where we could start cutting metal. By using 1000 cc bike engines, the cars would qualify as FB. Our idea was to build two cars, one of my design and one his and show up at some selected Majors races to demonstrate what is possible.
We had many ideas to really reduce the cost of building and maintaining a car. For the design I choose, I estimated the cost of a upright, caliper, rotor and wheel assembly, that would be common for all four corners, at about $500 each. Rims would be about $50.
We even got to the point of writing an outline for the rules for such a car.
The goal of the car was to put the cost, both purchase price and operating costs relative to medium income back to what is was in the mid 1970s when we were increasing the stock of FFs by 100 cars a year for many years and guys/gals making a modest income could afford to go racing.
I pulled the plug on the project after USAC took over sponsorship of the FRP program. FRP is the cream of SCCA formula car racing in the eastern half of the country. If SCCA did not care enough to fight to keep that sponsorship, then I figured that SCCA was not the partner I needed to justify the investment I would have to make in doing a new concept car.
As a side note: I also took the bike powered car and substituted a Honda Fit engine in the rear. The idea here was to expand the market for basic car. Many of the cost saving ideas in the bike powered car would carry over to a FF. It would have been possible to run the car with the bike engine on Saturday and by Sunday be ready to run as a FF. The engine and rear end assemblies attach to the rear of the roll bar with 8 bolts. Change wheels and tires and off we go. And still have time for a beer or 2 Saturday evening.
Last edited by S Lathrop; 09.03.17 at 6:37 PM.
OK, it appears that all the discussions in all the communities have died out, so you can find the results in the spreadsheet.
What your spreadsheet actually shows in one instance, is the costs for one class being inflated by the comments from a competing class that minimized their own costs.
Apex Speed is not the 'go to' web forum of all classes and your results are skewed as a result.
Could you be more specific? Which classes are referring to exactly?
FYI, I did not only visit communities on apexspeed. I also visited Spec Boxster (986forum.com and rennlist.com), Spec Miata at mazdaracers.com, SRF3 at specracer.com, S2000 at tapatalk.com, Spec E46 at e46fanatics.com (no response), NP01 at nasaforums.com, Thunder Roadster at nasaforums.com.
I admit that I did not visit the Spec911 community, although I have personally researched this class in the past, and have talked to the members about their cars. It's a norcal group, which is where I live, so I've seen those guys at the track.
So, in my opinion, every community (with maybe one exception) had an opportunity to provide data. Conversely, I did not use data about classes not on apexspeed from apexspeed people. I researched the non-apexspeed classes as best I could on their communities, and I gave them an opportunity to correct me.
So I'm not sure where you got your ideas about skewed results. It seems like you made an assumption without information.
I made every effort to be fair and I did not let people provide data about classes they have not raced in.
If you have constructive suggestions for how to improve the survey, please let me know.
Greg
Last edited by holmberg; 09.12.17 at 5:09 PM.
Being a participant in the class I know what I am talking about and I know about the smoke you have been fed from 'the opposition'.
It's the Russians interfering again !
Again, what the heck are you referring to?
If you can't figure it out yourself, you don't deserve me telling you.
He appears to be a zealot on one side of the F500/F600 rift based on his posting history.
Is that really necessary? We are all here to try to share information and while I am not sure what the point of this whole exercise is, it hardly appears that holmberg cares either way on your disagreement.
-Mark
Mark Uhlmann
Vancouver, Canada
'12 Stohr WF1
Might be too late for additional information, but I just had my engine professionally rebuilt for the Runoffs, so this is a real number.
F500
Engine: Rotax 593
Cost: $2,100
Includes: Pistons, top end overbore, crank, RAVE valves, one used reed case, gaskets, some new hardware (for a 2-cycle engine this is a complete rebuild)
Does not include: shipping ($100 each way), dyno time
Cory
Good! I added it to the spreadsheet.
How many hours before it's no longer producing competitive power?
I would give you an answer on that if I had a good one. This engine had approx 3 weekends plus the 2015 Runoffs. My last race was at VIR in April. I did a personal best lap time and top speed, so the engine was still making "competitive" power, but I could not get the RPMs I wanted and didn't want to go to the Runoffs with any questions about the engine.
My previous rebuild was due to a broken crank after 4 weekends. I set personal bests and won both races at Road Atlanta the weekend that the crank broke, so that engine was also still making "competitive power".
Cory
As someone coming from a Spec Miata and looking into getting into a Formula Ford or Formula Mazda, I thank you for putting this together. It's no trivial task!
I have to say that your Spec Miata numbers are quite a bit inflated. They may be accurate for the serious business Runoffs-bound top drivers, but for the other 90+% of Spec Miata drivers, those numbers are way too high. Mid-pack SMs can be found from $7,500-$13,000. Engines and transmissions can last a long time (at least several seasons) and still be competitive at the regional level. I had a buddy who did very well with, literally, a junkyard lump of an engine in his 1.6L SM. He told everyone his engine builder was some guy in Japan.
SMs are very reliable on the track. Unless you want to be uber competitive, tires can be competitive at the regional level for several racing weekends.
Most importantly for Spec Miata, fenders and doors are cheap!
what region do you race in? Curious as to why you are changing from SM to FF. I have the itch for an open wheeler as well, trying to see which one.As someone coming from a Spec Miata and looking into getting into a Formula Ford or Formula Mazda, I thank you for putting this together. It's no trivial task!
I have to say that your Spec Miata numbers are quite a bit inflated. They may be accurate for the serious business Runoffs-bound top drivers, but for the other 90+% of Spec Miata drivers, those numbers are way too high. Mid-pack SMs can be found from $7,500-$13,000. Engines and transmissions can last a long time (at least several seasons) and still be competitive at the regional level. I had a buddy who did very well with, literally, a junkyard lump of an engine in his 1.6L SM. He told everyone his engine builder was some guy in Japan.
SMs are very reliable on the track. Unless you want to be uber competitive, tires can be competitive at the regional level for several racing weekends.
Most importantly for Spec Miata, fenders and doors are cheap!
Anthony Carbone Jr.
SCCA SRF Gen3 #16
05 Porsche 997
SoCal (SCCA Cal Club).
I just want to try something different and I've always thought open-wheel cars are cool.
If you are in SoCal and interested in FF you should run The Series.
Thanks so much for completing this MASSISVE effort. This has great value to all of us in the ow racing community.
Thanks again Greg!
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
I have no doubt about this.As someone coming from a Spec Miata and looking into getting into a Formula Ford or Formula Mazda, I thank you for putting this together. It's no trivial task!
I have to say that your Spec Miata numbers are quite a bit inflated. They may be accurate for the serious business Runoffs-bound top drivers, but for the other 90+% of Spec Miata drivers, those numbers are way too high. Mid-pack SMs can be found from $7,500-$13,000. Engines and transmissions can last a long time (at least several seasons) and still be competitive at the regional level. I had a buddy who did very well with, literally, a junkyard lump of an engine in his 1.6L SM. He told everyone his engine builder was some guy in Japan.
SMs are very reliable on the track. Unless you want to be uber competitive, tires can be competitive at the regional level for several racing weekends.
Most importantly for Spec Miata, fenders and doors are cheap!
In order to compare apples to apples, I had to level every class' cost to that of a national level effort. Some classes are always at that level (Formula Enterprises), so to be fair I had to ask for the same level from all classes. There are certainly some classes that can be run at the regional level for a lot less money and still have a lot of fun. Spec Miata is one of those.
Greg
thanks Cory, what does a crank add to the rebuild costs? I assume no labor and just the cost of the crank snd a few minor bits.
What is the cost of replacing the case when a crank breaks?
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
What a tremendous effort Holmberg has gifted competitors with here!
I have equal parts respect for anyone providing such an effort, and disdain for those calling things out like the effort was somehow a disservice.
Then we wonder why unpaid efforts of passion are so rare. Get real.
Regardless, Kudos!
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