Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 131
  1. #1
    Senior Member Stan Clayton's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.14.03
    Location
    Mooresville NC area
    Posts
    4,157
    Liked: 309

    Default The cheapest practical SR2

    Ever since the SR2 rules were published at the SCCA Convention earlier this month I have been thinking about them. Specifically, I keep thinking about the age-old question, "What is the cheapest practical competitive car in the class?" AFAIK, there was never a realistic answer to the question under the old paradigm of CSR and DSR, as no really affordable car could be made competitive. Starting about 10 years ago DSR was as expensive as CSR, or more so, to run at the pointy end.

    But if the CRB sticks to it's guns SR2 can be different, because the class is set up with spec lines to help assure many different types of cars can be competitive. At long last that gives us a chance to come up with a really cheap -- not just "relatively affordable" -- answer to the question. The benchmark-presumptive car in SR2 is the Euro Sports 2000, a $75,000 (base price) machine that is beautiful and fast...but NOT cheap, or even relatively affordable by most measures. I was chatting on the phone the other day with Wayne Felch up at Stohr when the conversation came around to the cost of cars, and Wayne said something that really struck a chord with me. He said that there are a fairly large number of folks who can afford a fifty thousand dollar car, but that when the price of a car goes over that price point the pool of buyers really drops.

    I can well believe Wayne's point. In fact, other constructors have told me much the same thing, only they cited even lower price points where sales dried up. Moreover, if that point is true it has severe implications for pinning the hopes of SR2's future growth on the Euro S2. So I asked myself if one could build a competitive SR2 car for half that price.

    The answer I came up with is to revive an old idea that never quite made it to a National class...the Sports Racer Vee. Don't laugh. Instead, think of a Formula First on steroids...and with full bodywork. Like the cars in FV and FST, SRV would rely on mandated low-cost Volkswagen components for cost containment. In the draft for a spec line in SR2, I've borrowed elements of FV, FST and Solo Vee's rules, with additional allowances to assure adequate performance in SR2. The linked pdf document contains a complete draft of the proposed rules, which if approved can be pasted into the GCR as a spec line SR2, just as are the AMACs, Stohrs, Enterprise Sports Racer and others.

    Please feel free to download, read and comment on the draft. I've even embedded some questions in the draft I'd like input on, but I plan to submit something very similar to this to the CRB for consideration fairly soon. Also, I tried to list the source of each section, sometimes down to individual lines...it should be self-explanatory.

    SRV draft rules - version 1
    Stan Clayton
    Stohr Cars

  2. #2
    Senior Member Mark_Silverberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    09.09.02
    Location
    S. E. Michigan
    Posts
    627
    Liked: 111

    Default

    I think the concept is interesting and certainly formula first has blazed the way in addressing many of the part availability issues with present FV.

    I would be somewhat concerned that the increased horsepower may bring out some interesting handling characteristics in the VW suspension. It would be easy to test this with an engine in a formula first chassis.

    Although I am a present (vintage) FV racer and the vintage Vee sports racers held some appeal - the real question I would ask is would this be a better soluntion for a low cost sports racer that evolving a F600 into a SR600 with longer wheelbase, a coil over suspension, a non restricted engine and slightly modified body work. I think both could be done at a similar price point but a SR600 could be way more sexy.
    Mark Silverberg - SE Michigan
    Lynx B FV & Royale RP3 FF
    240Z Vintage Production Car
    PCR, Kosmic CRG & Birel karts

  3. #3
    Grand Pooh Bah Purple Frog's Avatar
    Join Date
    04.03.01
    Location
    Havana, Fl, USA
    Posts
    10,768
    Liked: 3772

    Default

    I seem to remember one of these running at the Sebring 12hour back in the mid-60s. It was called a Beach. Lastest like 10 hours as i remember.

    History repeats.


  4. #4
    Contributing Member
    Join Date
    12.27.08
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    359
    Liked: 98

    Default Cheap

    Sorry Stan but I agree with Mark. Jay Novak's new Nova 600 Blade could easily be an SR2 car with add on fenders and allowances for minimum weight and width. It could even keep the F600 suspension without changing to the more expensive coil over shocks if the SR2 requirement for steel springs was changed to steel (actually should be ferrous) or elastomeric.
    I believe Jay is currently at the <$25,000 price point for a roller.
    There are also a number of F600s out there that could be dual purpose cars with minimal bodywork mods.
    Marty

  5. #5
    Senior Member Stan Clayton's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.14.03
    Location
    Mooresville NC area
    Posts
    4,157
    Liked: 309

    Default

    Hey Mark, cut-n-paste is your friend! If this thread inspires you, feel free to put together a draft set of rules for another spec line in SR2.

    Frog, your post prompted me to do a google search for VSR (not SRV!), and lookie what I came up with from two years ago: Vee Sports Racer.
    Stan Clayton
    Stohr Cars

  6. #6
    Grand Pooh Bah Purple Frog's Avatar
    Join Date
    04.03.01
    Location
    Havana, Fl, USA
    Posts
    10,768
    Liked: 3772

    Default

    Being a VW fan way back then, we were really cheering for it at Sebring. One problem i remember they had was the bodywork was bending down at speed and trapping the driver's toes. Simple solution... they pitted and took a jig saw and cut out openings so the driver's toes were sticking up thru the bodywork at speed.
    In the 70's EMPI was selling 88mm jugs that fit in the standard 1600 cases without machining, which made boosting cc pretty easy. We could get lots of hp with race fuel, dual port big valve heads, balanced cranks, and cams.... but keeping the head studs in the cases became a major headache.

  7. #7
    Contributing Member Rick Kirchner's Avatar
    Join Date
    02.24.02
    Location
    Tehachapi, CA
    Posts
    6,480
    Liked: 1462

    Default

    Cheap has two components:

    Acquisition cost, which is dominated by parts count (fewer is better) and parts costs (hi volume vs custom). Much of your ruleset seems to address this well - I think of the cost difference between FFs with Triumph and VW upright and brake components vs late model VanDiemens with floating rotors......

    Operating costs, which seem to be dominated by tires, crash damage, and engine rebuilds

    I could be wrong, but horizontally opposed air cooled engines are not short on parts count compared to their water-cooled bretheren and at high power levels require a lot of hand tweeking and rebuilds. the parts are cheap, and the motors will run at low ower level forever whith all kinds of worn-out crap inside, but that's not really part of this scenario. In the day, AC FSVs were a maintenance nightmare.

    it would be interesting to have a look at the higher cost of custom engines just for racing, built around a HP vs longevity point, vs the cost of maintaining a production based motor, which frequently gets a lot of racing parts but is always hamstrung by some of the production engine's design limitations and/or the lack of foresight when the rules were developed.

    If one looked at acquisition + maintenance costs for custom vs production and extrapolated that over 10 years of racing, that would be an interesting study.

    Then of course, there's the business aspect - a custom engine that requires no maintenance will cost more for no other reason than the builder isn't going to make a ton of money off re-builds and parts.

    I've been thnking about some of those Type 1 buggy motors that have individual heads/cyl, roller cams, multi-piece aluminum blocks, etc (like a scat midget engine). cost a lot to build, but at restricted power levels would last a long time and there's more precision in the parts to start with, so maybe less hand work in prepping one.

    From a production motor standpoint, what about Subaru flat 4s?

  8. #8
    Senior Member Stan Clayton's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.14.03
    Location
    Mooresville NC area
    Posts
    4,157
    Liked: 309

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Frog View Post
    In the 70's EMPI was selling 88mm jugs that fit in the standard 1600 cases without machining, which made boosting cc pretty easy. We could get lots of hp with race fuel, dual port big valve heads, balanced cranks, and cams.... but keeping the head studs in the cases became a major headache.
    EMPI still sells all that stuff, and the 92mm jugs (makes 1915cc on a 1600 crank) are an easy fit. I spoke with Jim at SRacing.com the other day. He is the one who recommended aluminum cases for a target hp above about 125, as the aluminum cases cost about the same as regular mag cases, but are far stronger and more reliable above about 125 hp. Jim also said that 140 hp would be low stress for an engine like that, and that if turning the wick up was required, all it would take (within reason) would be larger venturis.
    Stan Clayton
    Stohr Cars

  9. #9
    Senior Member Stan Clayton's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.14.03
    Location
    Mooresville NC area
    Posts
    4,157
    Liked: 309

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner View Post
    In the day, AC FSVs were a maintenance nightmare.
    ...
    From a production motor standpoint, what about Subaru flat 4s?
    According to my old GCRs, the aircooled SFVs used unrestricted 1600cc engines, versus 20% more displacement and lower stresses in this scenario.

    Yeah, you could propose any reasonable engine...Subaru, MZR, etc. I just decided to stick with VW for my proposal.
    Stan Clayton
    Stohr Cars

  10. #10
    Contributing Member Rick Kirchner's Avatar
    Join Date
    02.24.02
    Location
    Tehachapi, CA
    Posts
    6,480
    Liked: 1462

    Default

    We could talk for hours on the stupidity of the FV to FSV and type 1 to Type 4 FSV transitions.....

    the aluminum case thing was one of the things I was alluding to in my previous post - as was Froggie's reference to the case studs (and $$$ modifications to add studs to the existing case and head designs)

    Raby Aircooled Technology is a place (as well as FAT) to see what a fully developed VW based motor will do... Fat's not doing much AC stuff anymore.

  11. #11
    Grand Pooh Bah Purple Frog's Avatar
    Join Date
    04.03.01
    Location
    Havana, Fl, USA
    Posts
    10,768
    Liked: 3772

    Default

    Stan,
    What if one was to use a '69 or later air-cooled transaxle. Would they be allowed to use the CV joints and have IRS instead of swing axle?

    The reason i ask is my experience with higher hp ac engines and swing axles was not happy. Maybe now 40 years later, using real stiff springs and limiting wheel movement, swing axles could be better. But, way back then we ended up with extreme droop limited rears. And.... I wonder if zero-roll is a good plan for a full bodied car with downforce.

    I say go for it.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Stan Clayton's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.14.03
    Location
    Mooresville NC area
    Posts
    4,157
    Liked: 309

    Default

    Funny you mention that, Frog. At one point I had both the swing axle and VW IRS as choices under rear suspension. Then I went back to swing axle as the only choice for cost and performance reasons.

    Before the VSR lightbulb went off in my head I was thinking of building a FST car, and talked at some length with Bill Bonow (Godfather of FST) about the why's and wherefores of that class' rules. Anyway, Bill said that they stuck with the FV rule (swing axle and one arm only) for cost considerations. I ultimately went with that plan, as well, but am open to suggestions.

    VW IRS with an additional 25 lbs?

    What other considerations come up? Gears? Number and style of locating arms?
    Stan Clayton
    Stohr Cars

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    01.11.05
    Location
    Zionsville, Indiana
    Posts
    3,169
    Liked: 1395

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Frog View Post
    I seem to remember one of these running at the Sebring 12hour back in the mid-60s. It was called a Beach. Lastest like 10 hours as i remember.

    History repeats.
    Ed Zink did the same thing, build a SR based on a FV chassis. He used a nearly stock 1600 Bug engine. I did not know that Beach had done a sports racer.

    Bill Scott, Harry Ingle and Bill Greer did the driving in the 12 Hour. I have heard the car is still around in your country.

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    03.24.12
    Location
    H-Town, Texas
    Posts
    241
    Liked: 2

    Default

    How inexpensive is this class supposed to be? Also, how fast? What is the cost of an SRF and how does these proposals discussed in this thread relate to the cost and speed of an SRF? Isn't this class supposed to be somewhere in between the speeds of an SRF and the current fast guys in DSR/CSR?

    I ask a lot of questions...
    Ken

  15. #15
    Senior Member Stan Clayton's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.14.03
    Location
    Mooresville NC area
    Posts
    4,157
    Liked: 309

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S Lathrop View Post
    Ed Zink did the same thing, build a SR based on a FV chassis. He used a nearly stock 1600 Bug engine. I did not know that Beach had done a sports racer.
    You can read a short bit about the Zink Z-8 VSR here.

    There is a nice article about the Crusader VSR here. Chuck made several of them, and I've seen one that resides here in the SF area. Very nice car.

    Beach made a few, as did Royale and probably a few others. Maybe a dozen cars in all.
    Stan Clayton
    Stohr Cars

  16. #16
    Grand Pooh Bah Purple Frog's Avatar
    Join Date
    04.03.01
    Location
    Havana, Fl, USA
    Posts
    10,768
    Liked: 3772

    Default

    Steve,
    I always thought the car at Sebring was a Beach, but obviously it might have been the Zink i remember. I also thought that for Sebring they were using a roller bearing crank, which was beyond our wildest dreams of affordability.

    But, Stan proved to me there was a Beach at Sebring in 68.
    It was like 1962 at the Miami Beach Auto Show when i first saw a Beach FV.
    Last edited by Purple Frog; 03.28.13 at 8:26 PM.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Stan Clayton's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.14.03
    Location
    Mooresville NC area
    Posts
    4,157
    Liked: 309

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KenT View Post
    How inexpensive is this class supposed to be? Also, how fast? What is the cost of an SRF and how does these proposals discussed in this thread relate to the cost and speed of an SRF? Isn't this class supposed to be somewhere in between the speeds of an SRF and the current fast guys in DSR/CSR?
    The cost of SR2, as well as the speed, was pegged as "between SRF and SR1"

    A new assembled SRF on a fresh set of tires is $33,100 (per Enterprises' website).

    A new Stohr WF1 SR1 starts at about $60k for a roller. Add $10k to $30K or more for a turnkey car. (Wayne, correct me if I have the prices wrong.)

    A Euro Sports 2000 (the baseline car in SR2) costs about $65,000 for a turnkey new car, plus another $5k or so to get it here.

    Used VdeV/CN cars in Europe are being advertised at about the same cost as a new ES2.

    Used Enterprise Sports Racers (which will be in SR2) run about $35k and up. New they are $54,200 (website).

    Will it be as fast as an SRF? No, it'll be way faster...

    The SRF record at Thunderhill is a 2:02. The FV record is 1:59 and the FST record is a 2:00. Add 50+ more hp to an FST and I think it's safe to say that they'll be way faster than an SRF.

    I think it's also safe to say a VSR will cost no more than an SRF.
    Stan Clayton
    Stohr Cars

  18. #18
    Senior Member Stan Clayton's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.14.03
    Location
    Mooresville NC area
    Posts
    4,157
    Liked: 309

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Frog View Post
    Steve,
    I always thought the car at Sebring was a Beach, but obviously it might have been the Zink i remember. I also thought that for Sebring they were using a roller bearing crank, which was beyond our wildest dreams of affordability.
    It was like 1962 at the Miami Beach Auto Show when i first saw a Beach FV.
    You can read about the Beach VSR here.
    Stan Clayton
    Stohr Cars

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    01.11.05
    Location
    Zionsville, Indiana
    Posts
    3,169
    Liked: 1395

    Default

    Stan;

    Given your expertise, what would it cost to produce just the body work?

    I did a design study several years ago. The challenge was to see what it would cost to produce a complete upright with wheel and brake. I estimated that it could be done for $500 for a FF type car. Your project might raise that cost to $600. I got as far as the front corner. The rear might be about the same, excluding the drive joints and axels. I took my inspiration from the stock car guys and designed stuff for FF type car. This would not be as cheep as using VW type stuff but the VW parts will have a limited availability in the future.

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    12.07.02
    Location
    Brown Deer, WI
    Posts
    589
    Liked: 47

    Default

    Why don't you base it around the new beetle and use the transverse setup. The new beetle (1st gen) production spans well over a decade. Use stock components for uprights, brakes, driveshafts, wheels, etc. Some engines offered in the new beetle were offerred in the Golf and the Jetta so engine/trans supply shouldn't be a problem. Manufactures can sell kits allowing racers to go out and fill in the rest with a junk or running new beetle.

    Ian
    Ian Lenhart
    Level 11 Creative
    www.level11creative.com
    lenhart06@yahoo.com

  21. #21
    Contributing Member farrout's Avatar
    Join Date
    08.19.05
    Location
    Sanibel, FL
    Posts
    362
    Liked: 41

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KenT View Post
    How inexpensive is this class supposed to be? Also, how fast? What is the cost of an SRF and how does these proposals discussed in this thread relate to the cost and speed of an SRF? Isn't this class supposed to be somewhere in between the speeds of an SRF and the current fast guys in DSR/CSR?

    I ask a lot of questions...
    The Spec Line A cars (AMAC, Cheetah, LeGrand, etc) can be had for ~$20K or less. About the cost of a used SRF but definitely quicker. SPec line A cars are probably 8-10 seconds a lap slower than a National Stohr and 3-5 seconds slower than a early Stohr. They still run quite well, enough so that they will probably be normalized with an IIR depending on the MC engine used. A stock engine should be less restricted than a built engine so there is some cost avoidance potential. Regretably, there is a limited supply of them around so they are not the future of the class. But whether or not they are competitive in SR2 remains to be seen.
    Craig Farr
    2006 Stohr WF1 P2
    FARROUT Racing

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    10.31.07
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    2,524
    Liked: 1426

    Default

    Interesting idea, and practical.

    I skimmed the rules draft, and came to one question. How is anything at 1100lbs and 140+-hp, that is based off of a VW Beetle suspension going to be competitive with a purpose built, full racing suspension SR2 car? Or is SRV separate from SR2?
    Last edited by reidhazelton; 03.28.13 at 10:33 PM.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Stan Clayton's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.14.03
    Location
    Mooresville NC area
    Posts
    4,157
    Liked: 309

    Default

    Steve, I don't know the cost of bodywork yet because I don't know if the final rules will prohibit mechanical bits being visible from the front, as well as the sides and from above in the traditional DSR and CSR rules. (I have asked the CRB to revert to the old wording.)

    In any case, if we can slightly modify our P2007d bodywork to fit a VSR frame it will be much lower cost than if we have to go through the whole CAD/CAM routine, as we have written off the P2007d tooling. I know that's scant consolation to those without our facilities or collection of extant tooling, but that's the best answer I can give you right now.
    Stan Clayton
    Stohr Cars

  24. #24
    Senior Member Stan Clayton's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.14.03
    Location
    Mooresville NC area
    Posts
    4,157
    Liked: 309

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Lenhart View Post
    Why don't you base it around the new beetle and use the transverse setup.
    I based my proposal on the aircooled components because they are known entities with a long history in SCCA, and for their built-in technology, and hence cost cap. That's not to say one can't do the same with Rabbit/Golf parts, but they aren't as well known.

    Quote Originally Posted by farrout View Post
    The Spec Line A cars (AMAC, Cheetah, LeGrand, etc) can be had for ~$20K or less. About the cost of a used SRF but definitely quicker. SPec line A cars are probably 8-10 seconds a lap slower than a National Stohr and 3-5 seconds slower than a early Stohr. They still run quite well, enough so that they will probably be normalized with an IIR depending on the MC engine used. A stock engine should be less restricted than a built engine so there is some cost avoidance potential. Regretably, there is a limited supply of them around so they are not the future of the class. But whether or not they are competitive in SR2 remains to be seen.
    Are you referring to aircooled bug parts, Chris? Because if you are I need to clear this up. VW are still making new parts in Brazil and Mexico for the millions of Type 1 & 2 cars still on the roads worldwide. Moreover, every single part number is also made by the aftermarket, often to higher quality than the VW parts. IOW, parts availability will not be an issue for decades to come.

    Quote Originally Posted by reidhazelton View Post
    Interesting idea, and practical.

    I skimmed the rules draft, and came to one question. How is anything at 1100lbs and 140+-hp, that is based off of a VW Beetle suspension going to be competitive with a purpose built, full racing suspension SR2 car? Or is SRV separate from SR2?
    The short answer is that we don't yet know. OTOH, it will be up against an S2 with (currently) 140-ish hp at 1300+ lbs. That 200 lbs is the offset the VSR gets for having a crappy suspension. Moreover, if the weight offset is not enough, the CRB can give the cars a bigger venturi so they can make more power as needed to make them competitive.
    Stan Clayton
    Stohr Cars

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    10.31.07
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    2,524
    Liked: 1426

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan Clayton View Post

    The short answer is that we don't yet know. OTOH, it will be up against an S2 with (currently) 140-ish hp at 1300+ lbs. That 200 lbs is the offset the VSR gets for having a crappy suspension. Moreover, if the weight offset is not enough, the CRB can give the cars a bigger venturi so they can make more power as needed to make them competitive.
    Gotcha, thanks!

    Good luck, I like it. The more cars out there with the new class structure the better for everybody.

  26. #26
    Contributing Member marshall9's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.15.02
    Location
    Glendale, Arizona
    Posts
    2,204
    Liked: 501

    Default

    A new assembled SRF on a fresh set of tires is $33,100 (per Enterprises' website).

    Wow !

  27. #27
    Senior Member SOseth's Avatar
    Join Date
    09.08.02
    Location
    Hendersonville, TN
    Posts
    287
    Liked: 7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S Lathrop View Post
    Ed Zink did the same thing, build a SR based on a FV chassis. He used a nearly stock 1600 Bug engine. I did not know that Beach had done a sports racer.

    Bill Scott, Harry Ingle and Bill Greer did the driving in the 12 Hour. I have heard the car is still around in your country.
    Add Steve Pieper to the drivers list at the Daytona race. I think the car finished 2nd overall due to retirements but I may be wrong about that. After nearly rusting away the car was restored by Bob Houston in Vienna, Virginia and has been on track at some vintage races. An accident last fall is requiring a new frame.

    SteveO

  28. #28
    Senior Member Stan Clayton's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.14.03
    Location
    Mooresville NC area
    Posts
    4,157
    Liked: 309

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KenT View Post
    Also, how fast? ... Isn't this class supposed to be somewhere in between the speeds of an SRF and the current fast guys in DSR/CSR?
    I got a question off line about top speeds of a VSR, so I thought I'd post some numbers.

    For reference the trap speeds of current S2 at the Road America Runoffs are about 130-135. Trap speeds for FV are about 110-115.

    Trans/4th gear ratio/CWP ratio/MPH @ 6500/MPH @7000/all on 21" tire
    T1 .89 4.375 104 112
    T1 .89 4.125 111 119
    T3 .88 3.875 119 128

    On 22" tire...
    T1 short 109 118
    T1 long 116 125
    T3 long 125 134

    Questions?
    Stan Clayton
    Stohr Cars

  29. #29
    DJM Dennis McCarthy's Avatar
    Join Date
    10.30.02
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    743
    Liked: 120

    Default

    Stan,

    Having run FV for a number of years, I think with increased weight and performance

    you may run into some parts reliability issues unless most of the parts are aftermarket

    instead of the the current FV standards, I haven't read thru the suggested rules set.

    I applaud your out of the box thinking but still I wonder why not simply just run SRF.

    There is already a pretty good amount of cars running nationwide with a support group of dealers in place.

    They are proven, beefy chassis that are fairly easy to repair by any competent welder

    and mechanic.

    Erik has made many improvements to the car in his tenure at Enterprises.

    He is currently doing a new engine package that looks to give the car
    significant more oomph at a reasonable price and it sounds much better.

    There are usually decent cars to be had for less than 20K, and brand new cars are available for 33K which puts them in the market for less money the demographic you describe.

    Given your expertise it would be great to see you guys collaborate with him on a new body......

  30. #30
    Senior Member JohnPaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.20.10
    Location
    Coral Springs, florida
    Posts
    1,404
    Liked: 84

    Default

    damn, I like the idea of an F600 Sportracer with an unrestricted stock 600cc m/c engine with tons of downforce (ala tunnels). $30k +/- range brand new

  31. #31
    Contributing Member sracing's Avatar
    Join Date
    06.03.01
    Location
    Lexington KY
    Posts
    1,000
    Liked: 50

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis McCarthy View Post
    Stan,

    you may run into some parts reliability issues unless most of the parts are aftermarket

    instead of the the current FV standards, I haven't read thru the suggested rules set....
    Yep, but read his paper. It allows for most all of the aftermarket parts. A current 120+hp ACVW doesn't have a single VW part in it. (Maybe the case) It LOOKS like a VW, but with the exception of the distributor drive gear it's all aftermarket. I suspect this proposal would put you there.
    The good thing is most all of those parts are better and many/most cheaper when you consider the prep work that the stock stuff would require. We just built a 185 HP ACVW that is used for beating up on Mustangs in the 1/8 mile. Reliability seems good.
    Jim
    859-252-2349 or
    859-339-7425
    http://www.sracing.com

  32. #32
    DJM Dennis McCarthy's Avatar
    Join Date
    10.30.02
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    743
    Liked: 120

    Default

    The other questions I would pose is why not strengthen an existing class instead of embarking on a whole new venture? For many years in SCCA the number of classes was a source of contention and would consolidating even more be beneficial in the long term?

  33. #33
    Senior Member Stan Clayton's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.14.03
    Location
    Mooresville NC area
    Posts
    4,157
    Liked: 309

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis McCarthy View Post
    I applaud your out of the box thinking but still I wonder why not simply just run SRF.
    ...
    Given your expertise it would be great to see you guys collaborate with him on a new body......
    SR2 is for S2 cars and older CSR & DSR cars that can't be competitive in SR1 (plus new cars of course!), but it is still going to be a fair bit quicker than SRF. At the end of the day they're just two different answers to the racing question.

    We would love to do a new SRF body, but as a spec series Enterprises needs to maintain competitive continuity with the 800+ cars they've already built. We shall see, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis McCarthy View Post
    The other questions I would pose is why not strengthen an existing class instead of embarking on a whole new venture? For many years in SCCA the number of classes was a source of contention and would consolidating even more be beneficial in the long term?
    The class IS part of SCCA's class consolidation program. Remember, the Club is taking three classes...S2, DSR and CSR, and making two classes out of them: SR1 and SR2. VSR would just be a spec line in SR2, like S2, Radicals, small m/c powered cars, etc. It wouldn't be a new class.
    Stan Clayton
    Stohr Cars

  34. #34
    Contributing Member problemchild's Avatar
    Join Date
    10.22.02
    Location
    Ransomville, NY
    Posts
    5,718
    Liked: 4303

    Default

    The cheapect practical SR2 would be a used SRF
    ........... and you have 800 other racers to race with.

    It is not alot of fun being the slowest class in a race group and I struggle to see the sales potential in this VSR concept. If trying to grow SR2, why not a bolt-on mod to a legal SRF (tires, ECU, ?) that would encourage double-dipping entries of SRFs, much like the way SMs can run other classes.
    Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
    F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
    2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
    2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.

  35. #35
    Contributing Member Rick Kirchner's Avatar
    Join Date
    02.24.02
    Location
    Tehachapi, CA
    Posts
    6,480
    Liked: 1462

    Default

    As a step up from SRF, there was the Toyota WSR. Talk about a tank! There's easily 100lb that could come out of those things, and a swoopier body - but the chassis had a lot of low-cost parts in it. Used the 1600 corolla drivetrain in the back. From what I've seen, the big tires and weight had a negative effect on clutches. Front rockers looked like swift parts on steroids, sway bars were 1" tubular!

    Seemed to be around 175hp, about as fast as a FF in the right hands.

  36. #36
    DJM Dennis McCarthy's Avatar
    Join Date
    10.30.02
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    743
    Liked: 120

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by problemchild View Post
    The cheapect practical SR2 would be a used SRF
    ........... and you have 800 other racers to race with.

    It is not alot of fun being the slowest class in a race group and I struggle to see the sales potential in this VSR concept. If trying to grow SR2, why not a bolt-on mod to a legal SRF (tires, ECU, ?) that would encourage double-dipping entries of SRFs, much like the way SMs can run other classes.
    A tweaked ECU on the new engine on a SRF with a kick ass Dauntless body

    A video of the new Gen 3 engine package:

    http://vimeo.com/62300862

  37. #37
    Senior Member Jim Nash's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.14.02
    Location
    Bloomington, MN
    Posts
    402
    Liked: 65

    Default

    The cheapect practical SR2 would be a used SRF
    ........... and you have 800 other racers to race with.

    It is not alot of fun being the slowest class in a race group and I struggle to see the sales potential in this VSR concept. If trying to grow SR2, why not a bolt-on mod to a legal SRF (tires, ECU, ?) that would encourage double-dipping entries of SRFs, much like the way SMs can run other classes.
    This really makes sense to me. Update the bodywork to make a splash (or make it open) and away you go. The engine is no longer "spec" but so what? Set some rules...

    Jim

  38. #38
    Member pahillclimber's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.24.05
    Location
    Quakertown ,PA
    Posts
    81
    Liked: 13

    Default


    So, this is going to be the model for the new class? Ball joint front end, swing arm rear, LeGrand nose.

    Rich Sweigart

  39. #39
    Member pahillclimber's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.24.05
    Location
    Quakertown ,PA
    Posts
    81
    Liked: 13

    Default


    or we can have this little number, a standard bug with an aluminum body.

  40. #40
    Senior Member Stan Clayton's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.14.03
    Location
    Mooresville NC area
    Posts
    4,157
    Liked: 309

    Default

    I had something more modern in mind...

    Stan Clayton
    Stohr Cars

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  




About Us
Since 2000, ApexSpeed.com has been the go-to place for amateur road racing enthusiasts, bringing together a friendly community of racers, fans, and industry professionals. We're all about creating a space where people can connect, share knowledge, and exchange parts and vehicles, with a focus on specific race cars, classes, series, and events. Our community includes all major purpose-built road racing classes, like the Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) and various pro series across North America and beyond. At ApexSpeed, we're passionate about amateur motorsports and are dedicated to helping our community have fun and grow while creating lasting memories on and off the track.
Social