Open Wheel Miata

[SEComposites]

This topic has been discussed in a round about way before, but I'm curious (and a little bit bored at home) why spec Miata is so popular.

Is it purely the closed wheel nature of the cars from a safety point of view? Is it the cost of the car to start racing? How much $ is a good car these days? Is it the spec nature of the series? Why is there not not an open wheel equivalent? Has the prefect recipe not been found in open wheel or is it just a fundamental lack of interest in open wheel cars here? Are there too many open wheel classes?

I guess that leads into what an equivalent single seater would be like. There is a thread on here about a perfect entry level Formula, but I'm not sure if any conclusion was reached. Although I'm set on a Club/Vintage Ford it has got me thinking. If I look at the classes out there non of them tick all the boxes which has me wondering what my perfect open wheel car would be. Am I alone in this? Is everyone happy with their chosen formula?

[Spengo]

I think a lot of people just prefer sports cars as they are closer to what we drive every day on the street. Having the promise of a big pack to race in is also very attractive. It seems to cost more than the cheaper open wheel from my conversations with spec miata racers, certainly more than fvee or vintage club ford.

[Daryl DeArman]

Entry numbers, cost of a mid pack effort, perceived safety.

More SM entrants at last seasons' majors than FV, FF, FC and FM COMBINED.

When numbers even start to approach that kind of participation level the value of the race experience is much better than the performance.

[iamuwere]

Admittedly, the racing is a lot of fun in these cars. Very close packs. Difficult to win. Very simple to work on, if any work needs to be done a all between sessions. There isn't much other than adding fuel to do. Way easier than any of the formula cars I have ever had. I did have a transmission go out and they had it swapped in under 25 minutes. I was able to make the next test day session.

[racerdad2]

Spec Miatas are a hoot to drive. The wife prefers it to the Reynard as you are fully enclosed. You can buy a used SM for $10k and have fun. A top level car runs +$30 k. Spec Tires at a Spec cost helps.

I'm believing the new F4 is the right entry level car for open wheel. Carbon Fiber. Flappy Paddles. Leased Engine. Spec Tires. Spec Costs. I'd like to try one on for size. The future is here.

I love the Reynard. Mastering the 4 speed Hewland no clutch downshifts makes it more challenging and keeps me focused. Something about open wheel racing simply can't be reproduced in tin tops. Of course, racing motorcycles is the ultimate rush. Just not as much fun in your "Golden Years" when you high side into the asphalt.

I'm building my own SM for the joy of building. Much cheaper and faster to just buy one already sorted but what fun is that ?

Hoping the race groups will allow me to race both cars on race weekends. Race SM. Take a break. Race Open Wheel. Much easier to do when you're at the track to be racing and not consumed with only winning.

[formulasuper]

Sorry, but I just want to go fast and a Miata ain't gonna cut it.

[Steve Demeter]

The general population thinks open wheel drivers are crazy in that we accept the perceived risks associated with open wheels.

SM can lean on each other and get away pretty much unscathed.

When asked about it I tell people that a closed wheel driver will go for a gap 2 inches less wide than their car and a normal open wheel driver won't go for the gap if it is less than a foot wider than their car. For the most part anyway.

People don't understand that we respect the open wheels and that I would chance a guess that there is lots less car to car contact vs closed wheel cars.

A properly prepared formula car, IMHO requires no more work between sessions (unless something goes wrong) than any closed wheel car.

[dsmithwc04]

This topic has been discussed in a round about way before, but I'm curious (and a little bit bored at home) why spec Miata is so popular.

Is it purely the closed wheel nature of the cars from a safety point of view? Is it the cost of the car to start racing? How much $ is a good car these days? Is it the spec nature of the series? Why is there not not an open wheel equivalent? Has the prefect recipe not been found in open wheel or is it just a fundamental lack of interest in open wheel cars here? Are there too many open wheel classes?

I guess that leads into what an equivalent single seater would be like. There is a thread on here about a perfect entry level Formula, but I'm not sure if any conclusion was reached. Although I'm set on a Club/Vintage Ford it has got me thinking. If I look at the classes out there non of them tick all the boxes which has me wondering what my perfect open wheel car would be. Am I alone in this? Is everyone happy with their chosen formula?

Out of curiousity, what check boxes are left unchecked when you consider FE? Good participation if your in the midwest, but just about every open wheel class has it's share of participation issues in club racing.

[Jnovak]

I have driven both kinds of cars both open and closed. About 45 years ago I was a very competitive sedan racer and won a lot of races. A buddy of mine asked me if I wanted to drive his FV. What the hell I thought, they are slow so it can't be much fun but I gave it a try. When I got out of the Vee I was laughing and smiling so hard it was crazy. I never turned a wheel in a closed car again.

Now I would love it if there was a semi spec open wheel class with low cost production car parts that was fast enough to get your blood boiling but there are already way to many open wheel classes IMO.

We should start a winters break brainstorming group.

[Jnovak]

Out of curiousity, what check boxes are left unchecked when you consider FE? Good participation if your in the midwest, but just about every open wheel class has it's share of participation issues in club racing.

Brian and I tried it because it has most of the good stuff going for it. It is way too much of a total spec car for my blood and when we were in FE the many problems had not been sorted out and we had them all.

IMO a true low cost open wheel car MUST BE something that you can build yourself. Now FV and FST are just that but not nearly enough power. Just my old man opinion.

[SEComposites]

Nothing really, this was more an exercise in thinking about a formula that might attract more support. An entry level car shouldn't have wings or slicks I my opinion. I was just thinking what would attract more people into open wheel cars and wondering if there's anything that could be learnt from the Miata crowd.

[iamuwere]

The difference that is being overlooked is cost.

The DC Region has it figured out. The SSM class (very limited class upgrade wise, sealed motors that are cheap, limited suspension changes) takes SM back to where it was intended to start before the SM costs got crazy.

You can easily buy a good, very competitive car for well under $10k. Tires go faster over time, not slower up to the point they cord, or so they say.

Build a car with parts you can get at any local store for under $10k you have a winner. 35-50 car classes are a good thing.

[SEComposites]

Thanks Jay. I guess that's the path I was looking at - somewhat spec and using production car parts. Even using the engine/gearbox set up of the Spec Racer Ford. A robust, rugged, reliable and cheap open wheel car that can be used and abused week in week out. Obviously I don't know how to do it but can you get a new open wheel car on the grid for less than $20k. Perhaps a rolling chassis kit that you can the buy an old Miata (or something similar) and transfer a lot of parts over. Just thinking aloud.

[Pi_guy]

My 2 cents the cost of ownership is lower.
The amount of work in preparation is less, sometimes close to non existent.
With the numbers in the race field there is always somebody to race, and your not in a procession.
The amount of adjustibility is no where close to a formula car, where you say I can not adjust it where on the formula car you can find some way. So it is easier to run a car if there are not so many adjustments to lead you astray. Plus racing is a high percentage mental operation and just having less to adjust and do gives you a quicker positive feeling. There is nothing like making a dozen setup changes many hours of pre race prep time and being 6 seconds off the pace to ruin that days outlook.
Plus guys in formula cars are a bit more devoted to the craft of racing, how many run karts so they can stay in tune for formula cars. I see the cockroach class a few times a year several of the drivers would not fit in a formula car, and I am not talking height here.

[Jnovak]

Thanks Jay. I guess that's the path I was looking at - somewhat spec and using production car parts. Even using the engine/gearbox set up of the Spec Racer Ford. A robust, rugged, reliable and cheap open wheel car that can be used and abused week in week out. Obviously I don't know how to do it but can you get a new open wheel car on the grid for less than $20k. Perhaps a rolling chassis kit that you can the buy an old Miata (or something similar) and transfer a lot of parts over. Just thinking aloud.

I have given this idea some serious thought in the past. IMO there are several doner cars that might be suitable. It would be best to make sure that there are multiple years of high production quantity cars that can be used as doner cars for the parts. A chassis/body kit could be done for about $10K. Buy a doner car and start assembling. Sounds easy but is not as there is so much planning to do. Still very doable if there is a dedicated team.

[HazelNut]

Lack of time I'd say. As we all know, formula cars are a huge time commitment between races requiring lost of repairs, upgrades, prep, setup etc.

SM I hear is a hell of a lot less for your average mid pack ****s and giggles racer.

[dsmithwc04]

I have driven both kinds of cars both open and closed. About 45 years ago I was a very competitive sedan racer and won a lot of races. A buddy of mine asked me if I wanted to drive his FV. What the hell I thought, they are slow so it can't be much fun but I gave it a try. When I got out of the Vee I was laughing and smiling so hard it was crazy. I never turned a wheel in a closed car again.

Now I would love it if there was a semi spec open wheel class with low cost production car parts that was fast enough to get your blood boiling but there are already way to many open wheel classes IMO.

We should start a winters break brainstorming group.

Interesting, so how many tin top racers could be brought over to the light if they were just given an opportunity to try an entry formula car?

[iamuwere]

I don't think it would be a huge number, honestly. Someone prove me wrong, please!

[Jnovak]

Interesting, so how many tin top racers could be brought over to the light if they were just given an opportunity to try an entry formula car?

I don't think it would be a huge number, honestly. Someone prove me wrong, please!

Requires a reasonably fast low cost open wheel race car. Does not exist right now.
Build it and they will come.

[dsmithwc04]

:

Requires a reasonably fast low cost open wheel race car. Does not exist right now.

What is reasonably fast? What is low cost?

[Jnovak]

Interesting, so how many tin top racers could be brought over to the light if they were just given an opportunity to try an entry formula car?

What is reasonably fast? What is low cost?

Close to an FF from a lap time perspective, say plus 3 to 5 seconds/lap. Less than $20k to buy a kit and a doner car. You assemble it yourself.

This can be done if there are required parts to build the car. That means that anyone can build the frame to a set of prints or buy the kit from a registered builder. The same goes for the body which can be purchased from a couple of suppliers.

[dleblanc]

I race a SM and a vintage FB car here in Portland, OR. I got the Miata because I can't afford to run the formula car more than 2-3 times/year, and I need more seat time if I'm ever going to get to get better. There are dollars, square dollars and cubic dollars. The FB car is definitely square dollars compared to the Miata. The engine rebuild in the FB car costs as much as buying a SM car. There there are (nearly) a squared # of entries in SM compared to vintage formula grids.

Having someone to race against is 80%+ of the fun of racing. There is always someone to run with in SM. Not so much in my vintage FB car. On the other hand, the power/weight ratio of the formula car can mask a lot of sloppy driving, but driving it well is very, very highly rewarding. If you screw up in SM, the competition will motor away and you can wave goodbye.

I like racing my Miata. I love racing my vintage FB car.

Darrell

#31 1991 Spec Miata
#60 1969 Winkelmann WDB-2
http://www.woodstockmotorsports.com

[dsmithwc04]

Close to an FF from a lap time perspective, say plus 3 to 5 seconds/lap. Less than $20k to buy a kit and a doner car. You assemble it yourself.

This can be done if there are required parts to build the car. That means that anyone can build the frame to a set of prints or buy the kit from a registered builder. The same goes for the body which can be purchased from a couple of suppliers.

Isnt F500/F600 $20k or less and only 5 sec or so slower than FF

[phantomjock]

Now I would love it if there was a semi spec open wheel class with low cost production car parts that was fast enough to get your blood boiling but there are already way to many open wheel classes IMO.

We should start a winters break brainstorming group.

Thanks Jay. I guess that's the path I was looking at - somewhat spec and using production car parts. Even using the engine/gearbox set up of the Spec Racer Ford. A robust, rugged, reliable and cheap open wheel car that can be used and abused week in week out. Obviously I don't know how to do it but can you get a new open wheel car on the grid for less than $20k. Perhaps a rolling chassis kit that you can the buy an old Miata (or something similar) and transfer a lot of parts over. Just thinking aloud.

Isn't removing the body from a SRF a bit of a reverse step to the Formula (fill in here) to Sports Racer? There are some areas to overcome, like the SRF radiator box would take some effort to look right - and the HUGE side pods would need some integrating into the open wheel body, and the full body pan, and keeping both eligible to race in each class could be accomplished. [As long as it doesn't look UGLY!]

A big advantage to the SRF is the use of "spec'd" FWD engines in a mid-engine chassis. That approach saves heaps on expensive gearboxes and gear changing combinations - and a relatively simple setup. A weak point on the Gen1s was using the Renault Alliance front wheel drive hubs all-around. No real spindle up front. Another challenge - Renault (AMC) bailed after a few years.

This is something I have been simmering on the back burner (dark recesses of mind). For "stock components," I'd be liking Corvette C5/6 uprights front and rear, simple coil-overs (belay the pushrods), and engine/tranny from a 2009+ Ford Focus (or Honda B18C+) - get that 200HP easy and 8000RPM!. This could be a use for those that don't choose to upgrade a GenII to Gen3. There are also a few Spec Racer Renaults floating around that are loosing participation and could be "resurected."

But I am away from mine and can't be of much help - but cheer the effort on!

Open wheel is a real kick! And for me just now, the Spec Racer Outlaw will be a close second. The 'vette will be closed cockpit madness when done.

Cheers - Jim

[SEComposites]

I think you might of miss understood my reference to the SRF car. I was simply referring to the power train set up as a useful option in an open wheeler. Not taking its clothes off and calling it an open wheel car.

Many years ago there was a series in the UK called Formula First. It used a transverse rear mounted engine and gearbox from a FWD car. It was very successful for a number of years.


As you say there are some good powerful stock motors out there that could be ideal in this application. Same with road car based upright components.

This car would be an open wheel car with Miata running costs and maintenance/set up time.

Basic spec would be road car engine/gearbox (wet sump) out board or rocket arm suspension, steel wheels and the Toyo R888 all weather tire. No wings either.

[TimH]

Um, Club Ford?

[SEComposites]

Somewhat, but with a bullet proof modern engine, no racing transmission and a bit more in the way of safety. Perhaps I'm looking at a modern take on the early FFs that used more road car parts. A Club Ford still requires a reasonable amount of maintenance to keep running. I'm not necessarily looking at attracting existing open wheel drivers with their pre-conceived notions of what a formula car should be. I include myself in that group.

I hasten to add this is just meant to be an off season discussion not a 'too many classes already' ear bashing.

[Lotus7]

.... Many years ago there was a series in the UK called Formula First. It used a transverse rear mounted engine and gearbox from a FWD car. It was very successful for a number of years...

I remember those, (and weren't they even properly British with left hand shifters?).

But, in line with your original query then, any idea why they were briefly so popular and then suddenly gone?

[SEComposites]

It was a series that popped up as part of a group of race cars commissioned by BHL (Brands Hatch Leasure). There was Formula First and a slicks and wings car called Formula Forward and a sports racer based on the First car. They were promoted by BHL but they withered away when that support dried up. There were at that time a plethora of other junior open wheel cars that diluted the market. You still the these cars in catch all classes every now and then.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eVqELAPsz34

[formulasuper]

Requires a reasonably fast low cost open wheel race car. Does not exist right now.

Well, maybe one. But you're correct, it's not for sale.

[RussMcB]

I get what you're saying, Ben. It would be great to have a very reliable, low cost (but not low tech) car, highly populated for fun, exciting racing. I know several cars/classes seem to fit the bill, but none have been enough to really draw and sustain huge fields.

As I've gotten older I want to keep racing, but with less effort and cost. The Fit FF was attractive to me, but, it wasn't really low cost. Even my low-budget DB-3 conversion was ~$20k. That may not sound like a big investment (probably lower than average here in ApexSpeed), but to many people that's a lot of money for a hobby investment (that can be wiped out in an instant).

Next I did Spec Miata for 2 years. It had a lot of attractions, including a huge community. It has some good rules to keep costs low, such as spec suspension and minimum wheel weights. It's never hard coming up with replacement parts or help with problems, and you're usually rewarded with fun racing against many competitors. It rewards both raw talent and old-guy experience. Over the years it has been tuned, so it has become reliable. Of course, it is far from perfect. I'd guess most of the front runners have $40k cars (which is ridiculous).

Many of us in the OW world are accustomed to very high quality racing components, and that makes it tougher for us to lower our standards and race lower tech cars. Somewhat based on that, I think your ideal formula car racing class might be based on motorcycle engines because they are high tech, reliable and include a transmission. I still think F1000 is very attractive - lots of bang for the buck, but (IMO), got out of hand when they let engine performance change along with new yearly models.

Sometimes I think an FF chassis with 600cc motorcycle engines would be fun and popular, especially if they had rules that helped keep costs down (shocks, wheel weights, long lasting tires, etc.).

[glenn cooper]

Jay and I had this discussion a few years ago on the way to Sebring from Atlanta.
It started out with "How do we save the country", and after about 2 minutes of our diametrically opposed viewpoints and 10 minutes of silence , Jay says "OK, How do we save SCCA?"
The ideas that started pouring out of both our heads and mouths were many, and as you can guess COST was the main point.
We thought a total cost of $19,995, which could be split by a pair of people, would be a realistic cost point, and the vehicle, btw an open wheel car w/ no wings, should be powered by a real workhorse of a very available bike motor - a 1300cc 'Busa.
As happens with things like this, life gets in the way, and the project was back burnered after a bit.

[Jim Nash]

Um, Club Ford?

This would be true expect that there will never be another club ford built. The newest one you can get is probably more than 35 years old.

Set some rules up that I could build a new one to and maybe we have something. As it is, Club Ford is a Regional Class that is not competitive at a Major in FF and has no possibility for growth. Not close to a formula version of SM.

Jim

[SEComposites]

Thanks chaps.
I think we're on the same page. An issue with bike engined cars is the chain drive (there are options to eliminate this) and the perceived reliability issue (real or not) This car would have to do a minimum of two full seasons on a motor. Perhaps a rev limited bigger capacity bike engine like the Hayabusa.
Perhaps I should just do it?

[Jnovak]

Jay and I had this discussion a few years ago on the way to Sebring from Atlanta.
It started out with "How do we save the country", and after about 2 minutes of our diametrically opposed viewpoints and 10 minutes of silence , Jay says "OK, How do we save SCCA?"
The ideas that started pouring out of both our heads and mouths were many, and as you can guess COST was the main point.
We thought a total cost of $19,995, which could be split by a pair of people, would be a realistic cost point, and the vehicle, btw an open wheel car w/ no wings, should be powered by a real workhorse of a very available bike motor - a 1300cc 'Busa.
As happens with things like this, life gets in the way, and the project was back burnered after a bit.

As you know Coop, I love the idea of a bike motor and I truly know how to get the cost down. My only prob with the bike motor is limited availability over a long time period. A car like this simply cannot be limited by an engine that has small sales numbers. If there was some way to allow multiple motors into a class and keep performance very close it might be a go. A future for an idea like this depends on a huge supply of engines.

A great idea and Coop and I were going to do it. However the Blade F600 got in the way.

[budawe]

I honestly don't think there's a large market for open wheel racing. I interviewed dozens of Miata drivers regarding open wheel and the majority said safety was an issue. Many said cost and having to work on them more were negatives. I noticed that SCCA's two most popular classes have a significant arrive and drive component and that underscores the fact that people just don't like to work on cars anymore.

Entry car costs are lower when there is a large used car population since building anything new costs about $20k. A class like FV that has a lot of used cars around but is shrinking and the field sizes are not as inviting as they used to be.

There are several car based small engines like the Chev Spark and Ford 3cyl ecotech that would be effective low cost power plants but short product life cycles similar to those found in the motorcycle engines, are likely to render them obsolete in just a few years.

The reality is that simple and fast just don't go together otherwise an updated vee could be viable.

[Daryl DeArman]

I have a friend that I started racing "tin tops" with after 5 seasons of karts and open wheel roundy-round stuff.

After another 5 seasons of "tin tops" I tried, unsuccessfully for years to get him in an open wheel car. I told him once he drove one, he'd never go back.

Production based tin-tops don't take as much wrench time but they sure are a much bigger pain in the ass to work on. Transporting and storage is bit more demanding as well. That friend has 3 SM/Super Miatas now....he absolutely loves them.

I don't believe the too common, real race car comments help the open wheel cause.

I think a FST with a non-turbo 2.5L Subaru motor would be the hot entry level car.

While we are at it put a YZ426F motor in a FV and end up with a few less ponies (58 HP) , a close ratio 5sp dry sump motor and save over 200#. That's a good basic entry level car and will be faster/sexier than a current FV.

[Spengo]

An issue with bike engined cars is the chain drive

Pardon my ignorance, but what's wrong with chain drive? Seems to work well enough for F1000, all the bike-engined P1 and P2 cars, and even things like the Palatov D4. Just remember to lube it up before you go out and you should be good to go.

A nice side benefit of chain drive is you could have a spec gearbox while maintaining the ability to change the gear ratios. Super easy and quick to swap out sprockets.

[SEComposites]

Pardon my ignorance, but what's wrong with chain drive? Seems to work well enough for F1000, all the bike-engined P1 and P2 cars, and even things like the Palatov D4. Just remember to lube it up before you go out and you should be good to go.

A nice side benefit of chain drive is you could have a spec gearbox while maintaining the ability to change the gear ratios. Super easy and quick to swap out sprockets.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a chain drive. I just think it might be perceived as a weak link, less desirable than a convential transaxle and requiring more maintenance. I'm not saying that's the case, just the perception.

[RSS]

The main issue I see is to many classes in all the regions all the openwheel guys need to pick one class for the region and everyone race in it. To help it would be a class that is older so there is a vintage lower entry car cost for those that require it. That way you increase the field and with more guys to race with it increases the appeal of the group. Best classes for this would be FV,FF and FC as they all have older car and a wide price range that can be accessible to a larger crowd.

This has worked so far for us in the NW with FC it seams to be working down in the arizona area with CF out east you have pro series as well as th GLC series eastern Canada has F1200 an F1600.