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  1. #1
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    Default Phoenix FS FS600

    Just thought I would start a thread regarding the the Phoenix FS car
    Waiting very impatiently for more details!

    And how about a name and some structure for the class. ( I know not a class)
    If everyone gets on board now things will become much easier if and when other manufacturers want to jump in. So

    Engine rules per SCCA f600
    Spec shocks, brakes ,wheels, ( whatever Phoenix is using)
    Any rear end
    Hard tire such as Toyo 888 or AR

    I see this as a self governing class that can be set up on a regional level. I would also like to see an A and B class similar to CF and CFC

    A for new cars or newer converted cars
    B for anything with outboard suspension, rockers, pull rods.

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    Contributing Member Mike Devins's Avatar
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    FF rules with f600 engine rules!

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    Contributing Member RussMcB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Devins View Post
    FF rules with f600 engine rules!
    That sounds great if they can also include rules to limit costs. That chassis/engine combo would be a blast.

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    Contributing Member Mike Devins's Avatar
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    Russ - what would you suggest to reduce costs.

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    Default f600

    Just out of curiosity, what's wrong with the existing (new), f600 class?

  8. #6
    Contributing Member RussMcB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Devins View Post
    Russ - what would you suggest to reduce costs.
    All the stuff mentioned in other threads (shocks, wheels, tires, etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by reset1 View Post
    Just out of curiosity, what's wrong with the existing (new), f600 class?
    Size, perceived lack of suspension.

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    Contributing Member Mike Devins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reset1 View Post
    Just out of curiosity, what's wrong with the existing (new), f600 class?
    There is nothing at all wrong with the current F600 class rules

    This would just be something that could be done for regional only racing that would allow older FF's and FC to be converted, Speeds would end up in the FF range, I have thought for a long time that this would make a great car for someone to learn in. Not a lot of aero to deal with, inexpensive motors but with shocks and the suspension tuning that goes along with it.

    Would not need a new class since you can enter under FS rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Devins View Post
    There is nothing at all wrong with the current F600 class rules

    This would just be something that could be done for regional only racing that would allow older FF's and FC to be converted, Speeds would end up in the FF range, I have thought for a long time that this would make a great car for someone to learn in. Not a lot of aero to deal with, inexpensive motors but with shocks and the suspension tuning that goes along with it.

    Would not need a new class since you can enter under FS rules.
    Working.
    Thanks ... Jay Novak
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    On my 54th year as an SCCA member
    with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)

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    Quote Originally Posted by djones View Post
    Just thought I would start a thread regarding the the Phoenix FS car
    Waiting very impatiently for more details!

    And how about a name and some structure for the class. ( I know not a class)
    If everyone gets on board now things will become much easier if and when other manufacturers want to jump in. So

    Engine rules per SCCA f600
    Spec shocks, brakes ,wheels, ( whatever Phoenix is using)
    Any rear end
    Hard tire such as Toyo 888 or AR

    I see this as a self governing class that can be set up on a regional level. I would also like to see an A and B class similar to CF and CFC

    A for new cars or newer converted cars
    B for anything with outboard suspension, rockers, pull rods.

    Jay Novak and I have been working on what has been referred to as a Super 600. We started discussing this project a year ago.

    Jay is about to cut metal and plans to get to the track this summer. My project is a little bit behind his in that I have to clear my shop of another project before I start my version of the S600.

    I am working on the rear drive assembly for both cars as I write this. The challenge is to build the rear chain drive system and keep the cost under $1,000.

    My drawings are in a fairly advanced stage and I have done a little work on the frame for my car as well. The body work is well under way, The frame I have drawn will also be the basis for a new FF as the project moves forward.

    The idea for the S600 is to build a few cars to a common set of rules and see what we can come up with. Then people can make their own judgments.

    If this comes to nothing, my fall back position is to have a new FF that can be built for way less than what I offer now. From what is on paper, and as a FF, I think this new FF will easily be a match for what I have turned out recently. And the S600 is not a rehash of my F1000. It is all new design for both classes.

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    Contributing Member Mike Devins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S Lathrop View Post
    I am working on the rear drive assembly for both cars as I write this. The challenge is to build the rear chain drive system and keep the cost under $1,000.

    If you are willing to use either a locked rear end or an open dif it can be done, maybe no LSD's is part of the formula.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Devins View Post
    If you are willing to use either a locked rear end or an open dif it can be done, maybe no LSD's is part of the formula.
    I am working on an open diff. The ICP diff that I used in the Citation F1000, even in the open diff configuration, is just too expensive for this project. I am trying to duplicate that type setup but at a much lower cost. Open diff will be the only option and I am working from production car parts.

    As an aside, we used an open diff as we developed the Citation F1000.

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    Contributing Member Mike Devins's Avatar
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    If you use an OEM VW dif and then use the rebuilt drive shafts from the autoparts store for cv joints you are in the ball park

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Devins View Post
    If you use an OEM VW dif and then use the rebuilt drive shafts from the autoparts store for cv joints you are in the ball park
    Not if you have to make the output flanges as we do for the Vairloc diff. Only the gear sets are production parts in the Variloc chain drive diff.

    I have a lot of experience with VW parts. For the Z16, we used VW parts from the back of the wheel to the output flange from the MK 9 Hewland. We did the same thing for the Z10, Z11 and Z14 as well.

    At the moment, I am stuck on trying to make Honda parts work.

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    Default Honda stuff

    Steve.
    If you don't mind me asking which Honda parts are you working with? Motor, brakes etc.
    Have you and Jay ( and perhaps Phoenix I hope) come to some common ground as to what off the shelf parts will be used.
    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by djones View Post
    Steve.
    If you don't mind me asking which Honda parts are you working with? Motor, brakes etc.
    Have you and Jay ( and perhaps Phoenix I hope) come to some common ground as to what off the shelf parts will be used.
    Thanks
    Spindles, wheel bearing, axels and various differentials. That is everything between the 2 rear wheels.

    We are still exploring the options. The criteria are for parts that are available both as new and used. That is keeping the search starting in the 2000 to current model years.

    Ideally, who ever builds a car, there will be a very high percentage of parts that are interchangeable between various car makes. We won't get to the point that FV is in common parts but the more we do, the lower the cost of the common parts will be.

    As an small example, Swift and Citation FFs starting with the Z16 had a lot of interchangeable parts. Over time that served both manufacturers well in keeping parts costs down and as improved parts came along, the parts would fit both cars.

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    Default Fs600

    Is this car going to be a spec chassis or can you convert a older Formula Ford?

    Thanks

    Rick

  20. #17
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    Default Fs600

    Any SCCA compliant car could be converted. All of these cars, new or converted will run in the FS class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Eskola View Post
    Is this car going to be a spec chassis or can you convert a older Formula Ford?

    Thanks

    Rick
    As I envision this class, it will be an open class just like FV and FF but with rules that make sense in today's circumstances. The construction rules for the chassis and roll cage are already in the GCR. Converting an existing FF would be possible even practical.

    The only caveat is that you might be required to use parts from some production car vs. parts built specifically for a particular race car.

  22. #19
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    Brilliant idea!!! Nice to see all the talent developing it, also.

  23. #20
    Senior Member Wright D's Avatar
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    Default Low Cost and Growable

    Gary and I have been thrashing through all the details of our new offering, trying to get the most performance per $ spent.

    We have selected a bunch of "off the shelf" or "production car parts" to couple with the existing Phoenix F1000 body and chassis design. The goal here is to supply a package that could fit the needs outlined in the open wheel miata thread. This car is also an idea gray and i have been working on for a long time, before the tread even started.

    I am getting very aggressive pricing from foundries for the uprights and a few of the other parts.

    As of now, the Kit specs would look something like....

    13" wheels with 4x100mm bolt pattern (all four wheels the same width)
    Prodction car wheel hubs, studs, bearings, seals, half shafts, tripods, and boots)
    Same upright all four corners
    Same calipers all four corners (production car units)
    Same rotors all four corners (production car units)
    In board Bilstein shocks (custom valved, non adjustable)
    Same basic suspension geometry as the F1000, but round tube A-arms, push rods, and toe links.
    Chain drive Open diff (guts from a production car but in a phoenix casting)
    600-1000cc bike engine (GSXR)
    Mild steel Header, ceramic coated
    Same water cooler as the Phoenix F1000
    Same oil cooler as the Phoenix F1000
    Mig welded Mild steel Chassis (Same basic design as the F1000)
    Fiberglass body with gel-coat color
    Harm Racing FIA FT-3 approved fuel cell. (not roto molded plastic and the same cell used in our F1000)

    We have tried to keep as much of the Phoenix F1000 intact as possible while proving a solution to keep cost super low. This also means that development cost for fixtures, jigs, molds, and other tooling is virtually zero. This is reflected in the cost of the car as well.

    Your feed back is welcome.
    Dustin Wright
    Phoenix Race Works L.L.C.
    www.phoenixraceworks.com
    623.297.4821

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    Dustin;

    Jay and I have chosen 2000 to 2010 Honda as the source of production car parts.

    I have 2 different Honda differentials, one a mid 90 vintage and the other a mid 2000. So far I can use either diff with minimal modifications and the only thing I have had to change from my F1000 design is that the bearings supporting the diff are a bit closer together than with the ICP/Vairloc I used with the Citation FB. I could easily substitute the modified Honda setup for the Vairloc chain drive diff.

    The inboard tripod outer race places the tripod easily where it is with what I use now and the short side drive shaft might work right off the car. In short, I could use the Honda parts in place of what I am using now.

    I think there is some benefit if everyone working on these cars stay with similar parts sources.

  25. #22
    Senior Member Wright D's Avatar
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    Default

    Feel free to share part numbers if you'd like to keep us using the same parts. heck, even a cad model or two

    I selected hub through diff internals that all fit together. Early 90's stuff.
    Dustin Wright
    Phoenix Race Works L.L.C.
    www.phoenixraceworks.com
    623.297.4821

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    Default parts

    Would like to see part numbers listed here as well. How about some info on the Bilsteins and wheels as well.
    Nice work getting together on this!

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    Default

    If this thing goes anywhere, I'm interested. Feel free to contact me.

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    Here is what I have so far.

    The diff in this drawing is a quick drawing from a mid 2000 Honda Civic DX with a 5 speed tranny. I also have a diff from a 90s something Civic DX 5 speed. They are a bit different and to duplicate what is in this drawing, the thickness of the spacers between the diff body and the bearings will be slightly different and the dimensions of the sprocket flange where it mates to the diff body will be slightly different.

    The center of the diff to the face of the sprocket flange, where the sprocket bolts is the same as several chain drive differentials on the market today. The bearing spacing is not the same. It is about 3/8 to 1/2 inch narrower than the ICP/Variloc diff used on the Citation F1000.

    The 90 vintage diff is a little over 1/2 pound lighter than the later model but otherwise they are almost interchangeable.

    Bottom line, this approach is not very expensive to do. For sure it is way less than a purpose built setup. Down side it is heavier than an all aluminum setup. The stock diffs are just under 8 lbs. for the newer one. I did machine off the ring gear flange so the installed part is closer to 7 lbs.

    The trick from here is to mount this so that it runs in some oil.

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  30. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by S Lathrop View Post
    Here is what I have so far.

    ....................

    The trick from here is to mount this so that it runs in some oil.
    Assuming this is an open dif we have made covers and run them in grease and they have held up fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Devins View Post
    Assuming this is an open dif we have made covers and run them in grease and they have held up fine.
    I do have a solution to the problem. At this point I am making the bearing mounting blocks also part of a container to hold fluid.

    You being a composite guy, can you make a container? The side of the diff that needs the container does not have a good surface at the ring gear flange to seal a container. But maybe I need to spend more time on that subject.

    Bottom line is I am trying to stay well under $1000 for rear drive assembly, between the wheel hubs.

  32. #28
    Contributing Member Mike Devins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S Lathrop View Post

    You being a composite guy, can you make a container? The side of the diff that needs the container does not have a good surface at the ring gear flange to seal a container. But maybe I need to spend more time on that subject.
    Can you post a sketch of what you have in mind?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Devins View Post
    Can you post a sketch of what you have in mind?
    That is the problem. I don't have a good idea.

    What I came up with was a large diameter tube clamped between the two bearing mounting blocks to house the fluid. The mounting blocks are then mounted to the chassis. The down side of this design is that I am relying on the seals and the press fit of the bearings to seal the container. Sealing the tripod joints is the same as it in the car,

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    Default F4 Canada

    I like what I am reading on this thread.

    Those of you who live close to the Ontario Canada border, could also come run with our F4 class.
    Been around since the late 1960s.
    Running 750cc motorcycle engines.
    Wings, diffusers, shocks, etc.

    Big mix of old (early 70s) chassis, to new ones.

    New ones turn 1:24s at Mosport--sorry, that's Canadian Tire Motorsports Park. (Faster than a FF, slower that a F2000).

    The last couple of years, our club has been talking about changing the weight rules to allow cars to run 600cc as a lower weight than the 750s. The GSX-R 750 is the only competitive motor still around.
    Current minimum weight with car and driver is 830lbs.

    Feel free to email me to ask for pics of diffs, brakes, suspension, etc.

    cheers,
    Devin

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  36. #31
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    Default Spool?

    What if you just ran a spool? Definitely would keep the cost down but still allow the IRS set up. How much would you loose in performance?

    Everything here is what I hoped the F600's would be. 13" wheels, real but limited (cheaper) suspension, limited aero. Something a guy in a kart could step in to learn suspension and aero setups. Preloading delron bushings with torque settings as was going on in the F500, while interesting, is not transferrable to anything else.

    The problem with the DSR's is that they became too refined and priced out of the hands of many. The ground effects for the CSR/DSR were abused from "if in doubt don't" to run as much as you can get away with and let's shift the rule set. Again, beautiful and fast cars, just not for the masses.

    I'm all for the guy who can build a chassis that can start off in FS600 or FF, replace with an upgrade and run FB/FC. Allows one to learn and have a platform to use as they pick up their craft.

    Keep up the pursuit of this great idea!

    Gregg Matocha

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRMatocha View Post
    What if you just ran a spool? Definitely would keep the cost down but still allow the IRS set up. How much would you loose in performance?

    Everything here is what I hoped the F600's would be. 13" wheels, real but limited (cheaper) suspension, limited aero. Something a guy in a kart could step in to learn suspension and aero setups. Preloading delron bushings with torque settings as was going on in the F500, while interesting, is not transferrable to anything else.

    The problem with the DSR's is that they became too refined and priced out of the hands of many. The ground effects for the CSR/DSR were abused from "if in doubt don't" to run as much as you can get away with and let's shift the rule set. Again, beautiful and fast cars, just not for the masses.

    I'm all for the guy who can build a chassis that can start off in FS600 or FF, replace with an upgrade and run FB/FC. Allows one to learn and have a platform to use as they pick up their craft.

    Keep up the pursuit of this great idea!

    Gregg Matocha

    I have done enough work on this question that I think the cost of a differential compared to a spool would be way less than $1,000. I think that I can do a differential setup similar to the Vairloc chain drive diff for under a $1000, that would be all the parts between the output drive joints. A spool would be less but not a lot less.

    The handling improvement would be very significant over a spool.

    I have tested spools to differentials on formula cars. So I can speak from experience.

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    Default Phoenix FS 600

    I'm very interested in this concept.

    If I were to convert a FF or F2000 chassis (less the wings) with a 600cc bike motor, "unrestricted" would there be any issues with the weight of a FF/F2000 chassis on the drivetrain? (I like the 600cc concept to keep speeds down)

    Questions:

    Would a spool have an affect on the drivetrain with a wide track?

    Would there be a year limit on what chassis you could convert? ( To be cost effective).

    What low cost shocks do you guys have in mind?

    Wheel sizes? (FF skinny's would be nice) maybe R45's

    Thanks

    Rick

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Eskola View Post
    I'm very interested in this concept.

    If I were to convert a FF or F2000 chassis (less the wings) with a 600cc bike motor, "unrestricted" would there be any issues with the weight of a FF/F2000 chassis on the drivetrain? (I like the 600cc concept to keep speeds down)

    Questions:

    Would a spool have an affect on the drivetrain with a wide track?

    Would there be a year limit on what chassis you could convert? ( To be cost effective).

    What low cost shocks do you guys have in mind?

    Wheel sizes? (FF skinny's would be nice) maybe R45's

    Thanks

    Rick
    I don't like the spool for several reasons. With wide track and limited horse power the car will not handle all that well. When you get down to F600 and kart size it is not that big an issue.

    Once you decide to go with an IRS rear suspension system, vs. a solid axel, you have very little cost savings with a spool. But you sure complicate the handling package working around the problems a spool causes. Now having said that, I know of 2 occasions where road races were won running a spool. Both cases involved Formula Atlantics and they were on street courses.

    Converting an existing FF would be cost effective because you should be able to sell much of the existing drive train to offset the cost of converting a car. Good transmissions will bring $3000 for a MK9, LD200 or Staffs. The bell housings should have good value as well. The only cars that would be attractive for a conversion would be cars without value as vintage cars.

    The bottom line when we were working on the rules and doing design work on the cars was to build something that would run with a current Honda powered FF heads up. Close enough in performance so that it was fun to race against the other class.

    For tires, I went with the spec FF front tire on all 4 corners. The lower weight, especially at the rear of the car makes this possible and still compete heads up with a FF.

    You darn sure don't want the conflict that exists in a field of FC, FM and FE. No one likes racing with the other classes.

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    Default F4 Canada diff

    Here is what the F4 Canada guys do -- a diff out of a Suzuki Swift / Pontiac Firefly.

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    Here is a chain diff setup using Honda Civic parts. This design allows the diff to be mounted in the center of the chassis. It also used Honda tripod joints.

    When I did this design I planned to use all Honda parts from wheel flange to wheel flange.

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  46. #39
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    What's happening with Formula Super 600? I haven't heard anything in a long time.

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    We are in the "put up stage'.

    There is a very high probability that 2 different cars will hit the track this summer. Both will be built to a common formula that is being written as we go.

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Since 2000, ApexSpeed.com has been the go-to place for amateur road racing enthusiasts, bringing together a friendly community of racers, fans, and industry professionals. We're all about creating a space where people can connect, share knowledge, and exchange parts and vehicles, with a focus on specific race cars, classes, series, and events. Our community includes all major purpose-built road racing classes, like the Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) and various pro series across North America and beyond. At ApexSpeed, we're passionate about amateur motorsports and are dedicated to helping our community have fun and grow while creating lasting memories on and off the track.
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