P3

[holmberg]

[SIZE=3]Sports racers are cool! And probably safer than open-wheel cars.


I just have a couple of problems with P1/P2. They're too fast and too expensive for me. I've seen your in-car videos, and they scare me! I'll admit it, I'm not man enough to race a P2. I've raced Club Ford, and I'm happy with that speed.


I know what you're thinking: then just go race an SRF! I'm sure racing an SRF would make me a better driver, but they're 1670 lbs and slower than FF. And not cheap, either. I think a new SRF3 is $40,000 to $45,000!


Then there's the NASA NP01. About FF speed, but also pretty heavy (1450 lbs without driver). But then there's the price: $76,000 kit. $10,000 to assemble it.


Sure, F600 is almost a sports racer, and those motorcycle engines sure sound good. Just as fast as FF, and a lot less expensive. I'm just not sure about the handling with that solid axle though. And kind of short, too. Only a couple race in my region.


I could race a formula car. FV is pretty cheap, but also kind of slow and not too sexy. FF would be good, especially since they finally got the engine and tire costs under control.


Still, what I really want is a sports racer. I want a sports racer that does FF times--could safely race in the FF group. An entry-level sports racer.[SIZE=3] Sort of a Legends car done right.[/SIZE]


There have been several lengthy discussions on apexspeed about the lack of an entry-level purpose-built class in the SCCA that could attract new drivers. These discussions have been titled "Formula D", "Open Wheel Miata", "Phoenix FS FS600", "The cheapest practical SR2", [/SIZE][SIZE=4][SIZE=3]"Entry Level Formula Car[/SIZE][SIZE=3]"[/SIZE],[/SIZE][SIZE=3] and "FS1000 Scalable to FB". The cars have been called "FD", "Formula Super 600", and "FS1000".


The one I liked the most was the light-weight (950 pounds with driver) formula car with no down-force and an 8000-rpm 1-liter motorcycle engine, to make it run FF lap-times. FF front tires all around. Kind of a scaled-down F1000. Or an FF with a motorcycle engine. Various prices have been floated--$20-25K for a kit.


I talked to a couple of people about building one of these for me. No one wants to do it. They don't believe that if they build it, we will come. At one-off production scales, a car would cost nearly twice the above target. And I don't know how to get 20 orders together (nor should I--that's not my job).


But I still want it. Except with a sports-racer body. Call it P3. FF lap times, no down-force, lightweight, low drag.


Now, I can't build it from scratch with the affordable parts as proposed (I lack the skills), but I can demonstrate the concept, maybe get other people interested.


Probably the easiest way to get there is to take a used P2, remove all the down-force, put in a 30mm inlet restrictor in a 1-liter MC engine for about 115 HP, and bolt on some 13x6 wheels with FF front tires. Change the springs and shocks to match. Sell the wings, the wheels, the expensive shocks.


So here's my question: which used P2 chassis would you recommend I start with to build a P3?


Keep in mind, I'm looking for something very light (750 lbs after removing wings, floor, and diffuser), with low drag. 63" to 70" wide, 90" to 99" wheel-base. Preferably with push-rods and in-board dampers. And not too expensive, of course--maybe $20,000 used.


Suggestions on other ways to build a P3 that runs with the FF's are welcome. There are of course more difficult ways--like starting with an F1000 or an FF.


So, what do you think--a stupid idea or exactly what's missing for entry-level road racers?
[/SIZE]

[SpacemanSpiff]

I've spent a lot of time thinking about what a P3 class could look like. Honestly, it's the class I want, as it opens up track days and such.

$20k just isn't a thing though. Maybe if you're willing to really cut down the features to something like F500, Spec with big initial buy in or using a lot of production parts from something with a lot of volume, all of these defeat the point of a P class in my opinion. I'd laid out a minimal budget, using the engine and a lot of parts out of my Miata track car and I still ended up at something like $30k. The budget for body work was also totally fantasy.

[DanW]

Greg,

Have you considered a vintage sports racer? A Lotus 23 of course is out of the question, I have seen some interesting cars near your budget from time to time.

[OneWayOut]

Aren't you describing a FE? The sports racer bodywork is literally a bolt on package.

[holmberg]

I've spent a lot of time thinking about what a P3 class could look like. Honestly, it's the class I want, as it opens up track days and such.

$20k just isn't a thing though. Maybe if you're willing to really cut down the features to something like F500, Spec with big initial buy in or using a lot of production parts from something with a lot of volume, all of these defeat the point of a P class in my opinion. I'd laid out a minimal budget, using the engine and a lot of parts out of my Miata track car and I still ended up at something like $30k. The budget for body work was also totally fantasy.

I agree. As a one-off I've been quoted a new FS600 roller (assembled) for $47,000 and a kit for $37,000. The $20,000 target would require economies of scale for at least 20 cars, and significant off-the-shelf parts. The builders believe they can do it, but just don't have the 20 orders. To me, this does not defeat the point of a P class. I'm not sure why using production parts bothers you.

As for buying a used P2 car and removing some parts (my plan), I've seen some nice cars for 20 to 25.

• 2003 Stohr for $19,000.
• Stohr with a 20' trailer for $24,000.
• 2004 Stohr for $25,000.
• 2004 Speads for $18,500.

And, of course, I can sell the wings, under-tray, diffuser, triple-adjustable shocks, and wheels. So I think I can do it for 20 to 25.

The question is: which chassis is going to be 750 lbs or less after removing wings, etc.? And has a modern track, wheel-base, and inboard shocks?

[holmberg]

Aren't you describing a FE? The sports racer bodywork is literally a bolt on package.

Too fast, too much down-force, and too much money.

I'm looking for FF lap times, with no down-force, for about $20,000.

[holmberg]

Greg,

Have you considered a vintage sports racer? A Lotus 23 of course is out of the question, I have seen some interesting cars near your budget from time to time.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but my impression of vintage cars is that they're expensive to maintain and fix. Especially the engines. I'm done with those Ford Kent engines!

[Lotus7]

My apologies if I missed it in the above posts, but say you find this unicorn, where will you race it and against whom?

[RobLav]

This sounds like the old Toyota WSR.

[holmberg]

This sounds like the old Toyota WSR.

1450 lbs without driver. I'm looking for half that with a motorcycle engine.

[holmberg]

My apologies if I missed it in the above posts, but say you find this unicorn, where will you race it and against whom?

I'm not so sure it's a unicorn. I posted links above to four P2 cars in that price range that would work.

But, yes, where to race it is a question. If it was a formula car I could race it in the regional-only FS catch-all class. But nothing like that exists for sports racers.

It would technically meet the P2 requirements. But there would be no one to race with of course, 'cause it would be a lot slower than a P2. In my region, there's usually one race group for FA, FB, FM, FS, FE, S2, P1, P2. It might be pretty scary just being on track with those cars.

Another group in my region is for FF, CF, FV, F5, FST, FC. This is where this car belongs. I would hope to eventually convince the region to create a regional-only P3 class and put it in this group. That would be perfect, since the car will have its restrictor adjusted until it runs FF lap times. I think they'll see reason, since it's a safety issue.

Until then, I'll have to race against myself in the P2 class.

[Lotus7]

I'm not so sure it's a unicorn. I posted links above to four P2 cars in that price range that would work..

noted, my ref to the unicorn was in light of your plan to downgrade such a car into a one-of-one-so-far

nothing says you cant race a slow car in a fast group, happens every event somewhere....
trick is to not do anything unexpected

[formulasuper]

A Sports Racer (ASR) has same rules as Formula S (FS) except it's closed wheel.

I'm not so sure it's a unicorn. I posted links above to four P2 cars in that price range that would work.
But, yes, where to race it is a question. If it was a formula car I could race it in the regional-only FS catch-all class. But nothing like that exists for sports racers...............

[holmberg]

A Sports Racer (ASR) has same rules as Formula S (FS) except it's closed wheel.

Oh yeah, forgot about ASR. That works. I'll still be in the fast group though. Getting run over by those FA's and FB's.

ASR only requires 750 lbs without driver and 6" wide wheels. Perfect.

I could also race it as a P2, except it might be a bit light. I think it would have to be 1000 lbs with driver. I might need 50 lbs of ballast!

[SteveG]

Oh yeah, forgot about ASR. That works. I'll still be in the fast group though. Getting run over by those FA's and FB's.

If you use last weekend at Thunderhill as an example, not so much. 6 finishers with the fastest lap of 1:45 in an ASR and the slowest at a 2:04 in a FM. No FA's or FB's.

Steve

[phantomjock]

Did somebody put you up to this - just to get me going on this idea? [I'll add I've been in South East Asia and for the past 5 months been preping our sailboat for an Indian Ocean Passage - not tending my cars. This break is much appreciated]

I note you never said you were interested in standing on the podium, but want some speed, more safety, and contain costs? Why not keep it as simple as possible - start with an available purpose built race chassis, and modify.

1. Get a used Gen1 or Gen2 SRF. It is not a tin-top Mazda. It has center seating formula-style, unlike many of the 2 seat Sports Racers.
2. Purpose built, dated, but well-known technology.
3. Available; I see them listed as low as $5-6K for Gen1 Renaults, $12K for good Gen2s and $20+K for excellent Gen2s. These are going cheap as guys are leaving rather than convert and retire.
4. Pull the engine/tranny - replace with a --------- (you fill in the blank) under 2.5L -- No turbo/supercharger (I'd Suggest to use auto engines - not bikes) I like and am leaning to a TRD/2ZZ 190HP-ish or Honda equivalent. With these engines you could have the speed - just choose not to use it - keep to FF speed.
5. Nearly anything goes aero, wings, etc, Carbon Fiber body - different body entirely - your pick. You pick who builds your engine, transmission, sells you brake pads, etc. Autozone/eBay - you choose. You choose whose and which tires you want to run.
6. Reg as a SPU - yes it is a regional only class, but if there was effort and some constraints, it could be another (oh-no- not another class!) I should look at the national class count for P2 & P1, but SRF is about 900 cars.

As a buy now, race some, build project, you could distribute the costs over several years.

If somebody wanted to write a classification guide, they could set the minimum weight at an unrealistic 1200#. The SRF body and chassis is heavy - but solidly built. There could use a NASA-like formula for points/discrimination between builds/cars. Track days and AX/hill-climbs all available, and if clever depending on state - could be street legal - that's a scary thought. With a change of body work, it could re-materialize as a Formula-S, but again, perhaps with a weight a penalty.

In SEDiv SPU often is classed in the same run group as the SRFs. The car I've outlined could run at the head of the "Spec-Class."

Thanks for getting me off the "boat" for a few minutes.

Cheers - Jim

[Dog Licked Racing]

[SIZE=4]GCR 9.1.8.A (1.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1][SIZE=1][SIZE=4]Sports Racers Cars except SRF homologated prior to 1-1-2014 are eligible to compete as P1 or P2 as long as they meet applicable class rules, no re-homologation is required. During competition, cars are subject to the minimum speed/lap time required for that competition event. Cars built after 1-1-2014 must conform to Homologation requirements as specified in 9.2.2.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]
[/SIZE][SIZE=4]Effective 1/1/97, those cars formerly known as Sports Renault and/or Spec Racers or any variants of this chassis/drive train/bodywork combination will not be allowed to compete in ASR in any SCCA sanctioned event.

So basically no SRF in any fashion in P1 or P2 and not in ASR. Unless you get one built after 1-1-2014 and get it through Homologation. This was probably written specially to preserve the Enterprise business model and to put a end to special private SRF development.[/SIZE]


[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Stan Clayton]

I'm working with Jay Novak (of F600 fame) to design and produce a new car that will combine the performance of a P2 at the price of an SRF...for the P2 class. We plan to have a roller on display at the Indy Runoffs. But since you live here in the Bay Area, come by our shop at Vacaville later this summer to see it. Formal announcement soon.

[2BWise]

Another group in my region is for FF, CF, FV, F5, FST, FC. This is where this car belongs. I would hope to eventually convince the region to create a regional-only P3 class and put it in this group. That would be perfect, since the car will have its restrictor adjusted until it runs FF lap times. I think they'll see reason, since it's a safety issue.

Why not just buy an F600? They have sports car noses and look very sports-racer-esque. Plus it already exists, there's people to race against, and meets the majority of your requirements.

Not to poke at you here, but aren't these kind of thoughts the reason we already have too many classes? It's how FB came about, FST came about, FE came about. All these classes we've created because there was a small group that wanted them and it pulled competitors away from the other classes that already existed.

The market is so packed right now and prices so low that trying to wedge in a new class into a market that already appears saturated doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Used prices appear to be at an all time low. Pick the class that best fits your criteria and spend your 20k to buy one of those.

[Dog Licked Racing]

I too want a new P3 class but not for this reason... Split the M/C engine P2 cars from the auto engine cars and allow both to develop.

[Jeff Read]

A converted S2 with motorcycle power


http://dsrforum.yuku.com/topic/11212...-P2-conversion

[Stan Clayton]

I too want a new P3 class but not for this reason... Split the M/C engine P2 cars from the auto engine cars and allow both to develop.

We used to have three P-classes...CSR, DSR, and Sports 2000 (auto-engined). Problem was there were not enough cars for all three classes to survive, so they were consolidated into two classes; P1 & P2. I do agree that P2 needs fixed, though. IMO it is too close in speed and lap time to P1 (the age-old DSR-CSR problem), and the fix is the same...slow down P2.

If I were King I would make several changes to P2 to 1) slow it down relative to P1, and 2) make it more competitive. To accomplish those goals I would:

Eliminate m/c engines larger than 1 liter from P2; restrict diffusers to forward of the front axle and aft of the rear axle; raise m/c powered P2 cars' minimum weight to 1100 lbs; roll the power back on m/c powered cars a bit to put them on closer par with the converted S2 cars (if recent changes don't accomplish that).

That would create a class very close to OP's original request without creating an additional class, AND address persistent concerns about the P1-P2 split. But $20,000 for a NEW car? Ain't happening...

[holmberg]

If you use last weekend at Thunderhill as an example, not so much. 6 finishers with the fastest lap of 1:45 in an ASR and the slowest at a 2:04 in a FM. No FA's or FB's.

Steve

Yes, FF does about 1:55 at Thunderhill, and I think this car will too. P2 record is 1:42 and P1 record is 1:36. So those would come up on me pretty fast. But I should be fine if I watch my mirrors carefully. Not unlike FC on track with FF and FV, I suppose. Which is how we do it in this region.

Hard to imagine an FM doing 2:04 (record is 1:49), but we're all coming up the learning curve, I suppose.

Not many FB's in the San Francisco region--just two all last year. Not sure why. No ASR's last year. Three FS's. Three P2's and 11 P1's. That race group is a bit sparse. Just six cars last weekend. The Miata group had 41 cars, and the SRF group had 27.

I think P1/P2 speed is not for everyone. It's certainly too fast for me.

[holmberg]

Jim, an SRF with 190 HP--sounds like a fun project for you. Me, I lack the skills for that. I'm just going to take a P2, rip off the wings and restrict the engine. That much I can handle.

Your SRF would have a little better weight/power ratio than an FF (8.8 vs. 9.7), but it would be slower in the corners and then take off down the straight. Kinda frustrating for the FF driver.

I want to be compatible with the FF cars.

[Stan Clayton]

Jim, an SRF with 190 HP--sounds like a fun project for you. Me, I lack the skills for that. I'm just going to take a P2, rip off the wings and restrict the engine. That much I can handle.

Your SRF would have a little better weight/power ratio than an FF (8.8 vs. 9.7), but it would be slower in the corners and then take off down the straight. Kinda frustrating for the FF driver. I want to be compatible with the FF cars.

Why take the wings off? The car will be more difficult to drive without them.

[holmberg]

I'm working with Jay Novak (of F600 fame) to design and produce a new car that will combine the performance of a P2 at the price of an SRF...for the P2 class. We plan to have a roller on display at the Indy Runoffs. But since you live here in the Bay Area, come by our shop at Vacaville later this summer to see it. Formal announcement soon.

Stan--

Awesome. That might be the car for me. But maybe too fast for me--not sure. 1:42 around Thunderhill looks a little scary. It's certainly not a car for beginners.

Does your car look like this?



That's an image from http://piontekengineering.com labeled "NovaRace DSR".

I think it's the "Nostendo 2" P2 by Jay Novak and Preform Resources. Or maybe a predecessor.

[Spengo]

It's a bit expensive and I dunno what you'd have to do to get it homologated for a racing class (or make it competitive in that class) but the Palatov D4 fits your description pretty well. You're probably stuck in the $50k+ price range when it comes to brand new cars no matter what though they might be able to build you one for a little less if you cheap out on things and find a used bike engine for a power plant. Very safe cars and very lightweight. Power and aero is whatever you want to spend.

[holmberg]

Why not just buy an F600? They have sports car noses and look very sports-racer-esque. Plus it already exists, there's people to race against, and meets the majority of your requirements.

Not to poke at you here, but aren't these kind of thoughts the reason we already have too many classes? It's how FB came about, FST came about, FE came about. All these classes we've created because there was a small group that wanted them and it pulled competitors away from the other classes that already existed.

The market is so packed right now and prices so low that trying to wedge in a new class into a market that already appears saturated doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Used prices appear to be at an all time low. Pick the class that best fits your criteria and spend your 20k to buy one of those.

Yes, an F600 is close. I am worried about the handling with the solid axle and the very short wheelbase.

Basically, I want an FF with a motorcycle engine. Then add the sports-racer body.

You make a good point about too many classes. Certainly, if you think the size of the pie is fixed, then more slices means smaller slices.

However, I feel that the pie can be grown, and the reason it hasn't in recent years is that the new classes hit a price/performance/safety point that already existed. FB is a cheap FA. FM, FE, and FC hit the same point. FV and FST are close to each other. These are redundant classes whose creators failed to analyze the market.

FF used to sell hundreds of cars per year in the mid 70's. Adjusted for inflation, those cars sold for $21,000 to $26,000 in today's dollars. Today a new FF costs $60,000. Something changed. FF got too sophisticated.

I want that $26,000 FF-like car. No down-force, real suspension. Sports-racer body for safety.

I think that that price/performance/safety point doesn't exist today, but if it did, we could grow the pie. The target customer goes to track days now, but could be converted to a racer.

I did a little market research. There's a Facebook group call "Bay Area Track Junkies". There's a lot of disposable income floating around northern California, and these guys spend a lot of money enhancing their street cars for track days. BMW's, Porsche's, etc. This group has 1338 members. I posted poll to them about what it would take to convert them to racers. Here are the results.





So, these guys are already spending a lot on their cars and track days, but they perceive that racing is too expensive. Note, not many (13%) said they weren't interested in racing.

With the right car (not too fast, not too slow) at the right price, that they perceive as safe, some of these guys could be converted to racers.

That car doesn't exist today, in my opinion.

[holmberg]

Why take the wings off? The car will be more difficult to drive without them.

Stan--

I'm shooting for FF handling, performance, lap-times.

Are FF's difficult to drive? Mine wasn't.

I'm not convinced you need down-force to make a car handle.

This is a beginner's car I'm proposing. Wings complicate set up. Also add expense. They tend to get ripped off with just a little contact.

I think a P2 with no down-force and 115 HP, 950 lbs with driver would handle pretty well.

But then, you have infinite more knowledge of sports racers and race cars in general than I do, so maybe I'm wrong.

Would putting a sports-racer body (no wings) on an FF make it difficult to drive? I don't know, you tell me.

[holmberg]

That would create a class very close to OP's original request without creating an additional class, AND address persistent concerns about the P1-P2 split. But $20,000 for a NEW car? Ain't happening...

Stan--

No, I know a complete new car can't be built (and sold with profit) for $20,000.

But it was just a little over a year ago (Jan 2016) that Phoenix said they could produce a roller FS600 for $20,000, or $25,000 with a GSXR600 (data acquisition not included). They said they could do it if they got orders for 20 cars. I know they got a number of interested parties, but apparently not 20. Of course, they've done little to no marketing either, so that's not a surprise.

Steve Lathrop has said he could deliver an FS600 kit for $20,000, in sufficient quantity. I'm not sure exactly what the kit would include for that price.

Perhaps I can convince you and Jay to produce a P3 kit, similar to FS600 but with a sports-racer body, for a similar price?

I can assemble, I just can't weld or fabricate. I need a finished frame and the other custom parts.

I'm sure that starting with a $20,000 kit, assembling it myself, I would end up at $30,000 before I got it on the track. I'm aware.

But since I can't create this car myself, the next best thing is to take a used P2 car and downgrade it to what I want.

[Stan Clayton]

Stan--

Awesome. That might be the car for me. But maybe too fast for me--not sure. 1:42 around Thunderhill looks a little scary. It's certainly not a car for beginners.

Does your car look like this?



That's an image from http://piontekengineering.com

I think it's the "Nostendo 2" by Jay Novak and Preform Resources.

Similar in concept, though not in detail. Longer wheelbase and wider to meet the P2 rules. And I wouldn't write off the F600 without having drive one. Jay and others have put an enormous amount of time into assuring the solid rear axle drives very well, and that the car is not in any way "nervous". He was also selling roller kits for $17k, IIRC. Not "thinking about it", "planning to do so", or other vaporware. He was doing it.

[Marty Nygard]

Actually, there is a P2 spec line for converted F5 cars that allow a narrower minimum width. Nowhere does it say the converted car has to ever have race as an F5.
Marty

[Stan Clayton]

Actually, there is a P2 spec line for converted F5 cars that allow a narrower minimum width. Nowhere does it say the converted car has to ever have race as an F5.
Marty

I checked with the Club about that and was told that to be an F5 the car must have been homologated as an F5. It is not enough to merely submit an F5-derived design. Rather than go through all that subterfuge we decided to widen the chassis to the minimum P2 width of 63".

[Marty Nygard]

Interesting Stan, mainly because they don't homologate cars these days.
I love subterfuge!
M

[holmberg]

Similar in concept, though not in detail. Longer wheelbase and wider to meet the P2 rules. And I wouldn't write off the F600 without having drive one. Jay and others have put an enormous amount of time into assuring the solid rear axle drives very well, and that the car is not in any way "nervous". He was also selling roller kits for $17k, IIRC. Not "thinking about it", "planning to do so", or other vaporware. He was doing it.

Jay's F600 is very nice, and quite close to what I want.

Didn't Jay announce last October his retirement and selling of his business? Can one still purchase a car or car kit from him?

[Stan Clayton]

Interesting Stan, mainly because they don't homologate cars these days.
I love subterfuge!
M

Interesting...but that's the very word they used.

[holmberg]

Similar in concept, though not in detail. Longer wheelbase and wider to meet the P2 rules. And I wouldn't write off the F600 without having drive one.

Stan--

Isn't that a P2 in the photo?