Not to mention that the tracks are all relatively close together. Even Oulton Park is less than 200 miles from London. Brands Hatch, Snetterton, Silverstone, Thruxton, Donnington, Goodwood, Castle Comb are all even closer to London than that.
Not to mention that the tracks are all relatively close together. Even Oulton Park is less than 200 miles from London. Brands Hatch, Snetterton, Silverstone, Thruxton, Donnington, Goodwood, Castle Comb are all even closer to London than that.
Hmm. I never factored in the cultural part but England is the center of the universe for auto racing. It's surprising that almost every Brit that I have met knows F1. Most Americas give me a blank stare. The good is there are lot less blank stares today than 20 years ago.Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
Larry
Engine Availability
I can not put an MZR into a Citation and run the car as a FC/F2000. That engine is legal only if you run it in an RFR.
With the exception of the RFR, all the other F2000/FC chassis are running motors that are out of production and are no longer supported by the engine manufacturers because they have been out of production for over 20 years. What if the future for FC and all the other car manufacturers without engines that are factory supported?
Which begs the question: Whose responsibility is it to find an engine/manufacturer to replace the Zetec?
Peter Olivola
(polivola@gmail.com)
The problem with modern ICE engines is restricting them down to 150-160 HP. LOL
Ten years ago Quicksilver casually threw out the idea of a Fit engine with turbo. That went over like a lead balloon.
If you are an outsider looking in you might see: vintage drivers, vintage engines, vintage gearboxes... just saying.
How many readers of ApexSpeed would support introducing the MZR engine into FC for any chassis?
I would support allowing the engines in F2000/FC with the appropriate restrictor so that cars powered by the MZR engine would be as good a match as possible with the engines that are currently legal in F2000/FC. We could start by doing dyno testing to get a starting point and then move to track testing and refine the process so that the engines are as good a match on the track as possible.
I will repeat the point I made in an earlier post: FC/F2000 has engines that are out of production and do not have factory support any longer.
Fixing the engine situation might just be the trick to reenergize interest and participation in FC/F2000. There are a bunch of chassis parked in garages that might find their way back to the track if we solve the engine problem. Having a new engine option that will make older cars competitive once again is a cost effective way to get cars back on the track.
All that work has already been done withe MZR. The F2000/MZR Van Diemen that IS approved in Club Racing is the same chassis that 90% of the field is already running with a Zetec or Pinto so it's very obvious that the engine is close in performance. I can't understand why the club isn't pursuing this option given their close relationship with Mazda.
There are multiple 2.0L (or close) engines that have been produced in large numbers that could be integrated into FC with varying amounts of work. Ford Sigma, Hyundai, Mazda, etc. Heck, the Honda K20 could probably be dropped in as-is and has huge support in the aftermarket.
It's all political.
Mike Beauchamp
RF95 Prototype 2
Get your FIA rain lights here:
www.gyrodynamics.net/product/cartek-fia-rain-light/
I heard through the grapevine that Honda was planning on a kit for the FC. Then something happened and that plan went away as did their supplying of the FF kits....
Do they still produce a kit for the FA? That was a big deal in 2014. I think they dropped club racing.
To my knowledge there was only one Honda FA (true FA) and it was comprehensively wrecked at the June Sprints. I hope it gets back on the track soon.
Ford doesn't offer any support either so any new engine would need to be developed by a racer or group of racers with help of an engine builder. Nobody is willing to step up because the Club has shown that they have no interest in listening to us, as we've seen over the last several months. The MZR should've been a slam dunk and that was denied so something even further out of the box has no chance.
Again, it's political.
Mike Beauchamp
RF95 Prototype 2
Get your FIA rain lights here:
www.gyrodynamics.net/product/cartek-fia-rain-light/
The problem with the MZR is it's already out of commercial production. While Mazda Motorsports continues to support it, it's only a matter of time before they pull support and all the junkyard engines dry up and it becomes the new Zetec. However, considering the number of cars already with the engine, and the fact they are supported I think the logical first step would be to allow them as a complete engine option, not just a spec line.
With that being said, we still need to think further into the future, or we will end up having this discussion again 10 years down the road (if we make it that far). There are plenty of options that could/would be viable, if not for the resistance from the rule makers and some competitors.
- Honda has a history of supporting amateur racing and has a presence in almost all major racing series around the world.
- K20C2: In the base model Civic from 2016-2024. 158 hp, 138 lb-ft. Complete engines can be found on ebay for ~$650-1000
- K20C9: The newest option from Honda, found in the 2025+ Civic. 150hp, 133 lb-ft. Because it's the 2025 MY, they aren't widely available yet, but should still be considered for the future.
- K20C1: Civic Type R engine, current F4 US engine. ~177 hp on the F4 tune. I believe it can be purchased race ready from HPD.
- K20A: There's a number of different flavors of K20A available ranging from 150-180 hp. Out of production but quite possibly has the largest aftermarket of any engine (except maybe the GM LS).
- Mazda as we all know has an unrivaled support for amateur racing and SCCA in particular.
- MZR: Obvious choice and should be added as a complete option, regardless.
- Skyactiv-G: Found in current generation MX-5 since 2019. 181 hp, 151 lb-ft. Because these are currently used in the MX-5 Cup, I don't doubt there's plenty of factory and aftermarket support.
- Toyota has a history of supporting lower level open wheel racing but to my knowledge is currently limited.
- M20A-FKS: Found in current generation 2018+ Corolla. 168 hp, 149 ft-lb.
- I think Hyundai is the most interesting prospect. They've recently invested a lot into motorsports, with highly successful WRC and TCR programs and a recently announced GTP prototype. They've also invested a lot into growing their North American market. Furthermore, Mazda is one of their primary competitors, so they may want a piece of the pie.
- Smartstream G2.0: Found in current production Elantra, Sonata, Tucson as well as a variety of Kias. 147 hp, 132 lb-ft.
- Probably more, I encourage continuing this discussion with additional ideas.
My personal opinion: Don't rely heavily on factory support when picking an option. It doesn't last forever and then its back to square one. The option that seems the most viable with this in mind is one of the K20s.
There is no shortage of options that would be viable and have good parity with simple homologation. As for who is going to develop an engine package? No one, so long as the expected outcome is "write a letter" then "Thanks for your letter, no." Maybe we can backdoor an option through FRP and do the development and homologation there, then push the complete package through to the SCCA.
motors for the future FF and FC
I have been doing a little investigation into motors recently for both FF and FC to try to find a solution going forward. SCCA needs to play ball if they want the junior OW classes to continue and thrive.
The MZR should be the new (er) motor of choice for the current crop of FCs. Yes, it's out of production, but as has been said above, it is supported by Mazdaspeed and crate motors are still available. It is the motor in the FE2 as well as specifically the VD USF2000 car allowed in Club FC. (RFR's cannot currently use it.) You can still get a Zetec built for a new chassis, but it will cost you dearly and may have a very long lead time.
FF. The Honda can still be built (note, I am building 5 of them right now), but it is also north of $20,000 to get one. There are no crate motors left other than those that have been squirreled away. Salvage motors with the correct block numbers are very hard to find. I don't believe this is a path FF should continue going forward.
The Ford Sigma 1600cc- great motor, used in the SRF Gen 3. It is also out of production, but there appears to be a good supply of salvage motors (SCCA Enterprises bought all the available crate motors from FoMCo). Kits are available or can be created to install in current and future chassis. I don't have exact costs nailed down yet, but it should be considerably cheaper than either a Kent or Honda.
I have a new Ray FF with a Sigma; it is a very clean, neat installation and FRP is in the process of equalizing it to the FIT and Kent through mapping and restrictor. The same Sigma, unrestricted and tuned could produce upwards of 150 HP according to QS (think FC). It is set for ~140hp in the SRF.
New current production motors under 2000cc appear to be what I call suitcase motors- 3 or 4 cylinder turbos that are quite small, electronically sophisticated and produce a lot of power, way more than is needed for either FF or FC.
I have a lot more detail about this topic, but it would probably bore everyone.
----------
In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
Formula Ford is healthy in England and in Australia isn't it? What motor are they using in the FF groups in those countries?
The UK is exclusively using the Kent motor for FF, I believe. Their motors are closer to stock than ours.
With the known supply of Ford parts, I don't see why we would look for another fair-weather engine supplier. The Fit engine sounded like a dream but it's quickly (relatively speaking) become difficult and more expensive to source. With Kent part availability, I don't see why would go through the pain and expense of trying to get another temporary modern engine supplier.
Garey Guzman
FF #4 (Former Cal Club member, current Atlanta Region member)
https://redroadracing.com/ (includes Zink and Citation Registry)
https://www.thekentlives.com/ (includes information on the FF Kent engine, chassis and history)
In my opinion where FF and FC missed the boat years ago was having a common engine between the two.
In a perfect world if a common engine were to be used then you could have different engine mapping for each class. That or add a restrictor to run FF and run FC unrestricted.
It would be great for both classes if you could add or remove wings, switch shocks and remap the ECU to switch between FF and FC.
That would create a ladder system where you could buy one car and naturally progress from FF to FC with minimal further investment.
-Brian
Yes, in a heartbeat.
Van Diemen RF99 FC
Its in way better shape than the US. Interestingly, today I just had a text conversation with a long time FF racer in the UK;
They have 6 FF series in the UK, all the series use the same tires and all use the Kent motors. They are experimenting with other tires to get costs down, Toyos and Hoosiers but likely will stick with Avon. He said that the US Hoosier VFF was too hard and they couldn't get it to work in 20 deg C temps but are getting a softer compound Hoosier VFF tire to try. I would think that they would have even a bigger problem with the Toyos but surprisingly they are not publicly complaining about them being too hard.
Larry
With the fact that 13” tires are unheard of in today’s performance market, is there any willingness to consider an alternate size wheel/tire combination in future?
Is the cost of a FF engine conversion an impediment for owners of Kent powered cars? No matter the resulting running costs?
Last - is there a performance advantage of new transmissions over the mk 9? Cost?
ChrisZ
Motors for FF
New blocks are available for Formula Ford. Today almost/all FF motor parts are available in a after-market form.
It does seem working with products from large corporations like Honda, Mazda and Toyo doesn't end well in the long run because our demands are a speck on their marketing radar. This applies to Mazda also. FF and FC might be better off working with smaller specialty businesses like Ivey, ARE, Hoosier, etc that rely on selling products to keep their doors open.
Sharing components between FC and FF would also create more business for the FC/FF supply chain. A long term engine plan for FC could be based on the new 1.6L Formula Ford block but the availability of 2L Ford motors is not a FC growth bottleneck, as there are countless numbers of them available. Keeping the engine simple and maintainable is key. We should also be wary of specialty items like computers, sensors, wiring that will eventually become obsolete.
Disclaimer: New guy.
That would be my thought, but retrofitting a new design engine with a carb and distributor is not economically feasible, if it can be done at all. The fact that many new engines have things like variable valve timing add to the complexity.
The benefits are they can be electronically regulated, so an engine could meet multiple class needs. It seems like the short term is to focus on existing engine combinations, while looking for a longer term solution.
ChrisZ
This is already being worked on by QS with the Sigma motor. Bob made mention of this in his post. The Sigma fits both the FF and FC chassis. It's basically a plug and play motor with a restrictor and a tune and you have a motor for both classes.
I would take it a bit further and spec out wheel sizes and tires and a similar diffuser for both cars. Then all you would have to do is tune your car, remove the wings and you could essentially run in two classes. Not only that you literally doubled your pool of people to sell when that time comes.
Brian
How to get FF costs under control
Team, as a bassline for my opinion, please note the previous comments the last few days over the health of FF in the UK/Australia. Having just watched the 2024 FF Festival and Walter Hayes trophy on YouTube, their rules package provides great tight racing and lively cars, even with less grip and HP.
Opinion: It was a mistake for the SCCA to start wandering away from common rules with the UK. I believe this started in the 70's.
As noted in a recent post, their allowing less modification of the Kent which means lower cost of entry a well as longer lasting.
Steel wheels and less sophisticated shocks save dollars yet provide great racing.
The tire selection saves money and is a good match to their Hp, so the grip to Hp ratio is fun to drive and watch.
Plus, common rules mean more sales of common parts and complete cars which means lower cost due to higher production volume.
Backing the boat up now would be painful for Hoosier, but no one else (well, except a few of us Honda owners). I'm sure that if a few hundred of us banded together and requested to change our rules to be common with the UK, that the SCCA would agree. But if only a handful of people asked it wouldn't (and shouldn't) happen.
Naturally, before we made this proposal, we'd have to confirm with Ford that engine blocks, cranks, and heads etc. would be supplied indefinitely. Maybe the UK already has this agreement in hand, but maybe not.
Lastly, please note that a SRF kit is around $55K now, and a professionally assembled car is $75K. So very, very close to a typical new FF cost (and more than the incoming Ray with the Kent at $60Kish). Also note, a good SM engine is $25K which is more than a new Kent or Honda, so a fresh built SM is about the same cost as a new FF. And a competitive B-Spec motor is $15K, plus the car is around $35K which is about the same as a great used FF. In my opinion, none of these options are as fun to drive as the thread the needle precision of a FF. Nor are they as economical to keep alive especially if you consider the crash/bodywork damage history of those classes.
Post positive, post productive,
Tony Stefanelli
Another thought, maybe a dumb one.
I was very involved in the F1000 in the beginning. My cars finished 1sf and 2nd at the Road America runoffs in the first appearance for the class. An F1000 is a lot less costly to build than a F1600 or a F2000. The main reason is that the engine and transmission are way less expensive than a automotive engine and a racing transmission. The final drive unit for a motor cycle powered car is about the same price as a cast bell housing used with an automotive engine.
If one was to take a 600 cc bike engine and install it in a FF legal chassis, you would have a car that was between $30,000 and $40,000 build. Such a car would perform very close to a F1600 if not slightly better. In short it would be a F600 power plant in a FF chassis. Because of the increased weight of the F1600 type chassis, the car would not be as fast as a current F600. But my bet it that it would be a lot of fun to drive.
It might be a thought to have a spec engine for such a class. Suzuki comes to mind.
It would be possible to buy a FF or F2000 rolling chassis and sell the transmission and bell housing and have enough money to largely cover the cost of installing a bike engine.
Just a dumb thought.
I don't think its a dumb thought. It's novel for sure, but not dumb.
Thinking deeper as type, the main issue becomes what to do with the hundreds of existing cars?
Post positive, post productive,
Tony Stefanelli
Existing cars would be the chassis of choice for F600. The chassis and body work rules would be the same as F1600.
Sure create another class that ought to do wonders to help bolster entries for FF/ FC
That mentality is big part of the problem. Learn from the past. Don’t make the same mistakes. F1000 did nothing but hurt existing classes.
Cheers
Len
Porsche River Oaks. Houston
they are, its called an FE2
Ian Macpherson
Savannah, GA
Race prep, support, and engineering.
F600 is already a SCCA class.
It seems to me that exploring long-term solutions — even if for new classes that could prove better and cheaper than what’s already here, and poorly supported — is infinitely smarter than being separatist.
Formula 1000 was a fabulous concept, the most-exciting class in decades, and a real loss when compared to the dying Atlantic class so few can afford. How’s that working out?
Personally, if a lightweight, stock motorcycle-engined, gearboxed, and inducted class came along on common, slow-wearing street tires, springs, and shocks — even if using one mandated chassis — I might just jump in and think I’m not alone.
Once we think we’ve mastered something, it’s over
https://ericwunrow.photoshelter.com/index
yes but you stated to put a 600cc bike engine into FF
Cheers
Len
Porsche River Oaks. Houston
What I am proposing is a class that would have new chassis and would pickup existing chassis. There are a bunch of older cars that could be converted for a lot less than new cars.
Just as a show piece, I have an old Zink Z10 chassis that could be turned into a decent F600 as I am suggesting.
That is an option. Performance wise, the 600 cc bike power and a good Kent powered F1600 would be a very close match. Power wise the 2 engines are close.
DIY Formula Car
Have you all seen this? Uses Miata uprights, brakes and a motorcycle engine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZHRWE7y1FI
Early FF were all made this way. The Zink Z10 used a bunch of VW parts. Like front upright assemblies and the rear upright was filled with VW parts. The current rear uprights I make for Z10 and Z16 use VW parts that are available at the local VW dealer today. My latest parts for the new rear suspension use VW parts.
This is exactly how F1000 developed. The thought was that older FCs would be converted and new chassis developed, which is exactly what happened. Unfortunately the new chassis made the converted Reynards and RF90s woefully uncompetitive. Your old Zink would never stand a chance against a new Piper or Citation or some other new builder (think JDR).
I'll never understand why people were against a class that had near-FA performance for near-F600 cost with fewer headaches than FF or FC, other than being separatist.
Mike Beauchamp
RF95 Prototype 2
Get your FIA rain lights here:
www.gyrodynamics.net/product/cartek-fia-rain-light/
I'm thinking you answered your own question. It was supposed to revamp older cars but ended up being a totally new car to buy.
Then the engine was supposed to be "ebay" engines but ended up being blue print motors from select builders. Again, to be competitive.
The savings "appeared to vanish". (<- oxymoron?)
Most of us "think we want" but don't need FA performance.
Sure I'd like to 'go faster' but, with my abilities I'd have to buy a lot of stain remover.
And how is this different than FF or FC other than a Fit or Zetec costs way more and you still have to deal with a fragile gearbox?
You're right, it appeared to vanish. It didn't though.
Mike Beauchamp
RF95 Prototype 2
Get your FIA rain lights here:
www.gyrodynamics.net/product/cartek-fia-rain-light/
Bike power
Bike powered race cars make a lot of sense when you compare cost to performance level.
You can buy a new motor cycle and keep the engine and part out the rest of the bike and almost brake even with the parts you need for a race car. The bike power train is a fraction of the cost for a automotive3 engine, a bell housing and a racing transmission.
n the 1970's when we were adding 50 to 100 new FF per year to the inventory, a new FF was the equivalent to 50% of medium income. Today an new FF is 100% or more of medium income. When I first raced F1600, a set of tires might make it a whole year. That got down to 1 race weekend per set. Now it is better but I don't think we are back to a season on a set of tires.
Add to the increase in the cost of the toys, the race car, the increase in the cost of everything else has gone up proportionately. The number of people who can afford to go racing has declines a bunch.
This last year I have spent a lot of time putting one of the Zink Z12 FV back on the track. It will be fun to see how that car performs in today's FV class. One thing became apparent that if we did not have the VW parts to start with, that project would have been a big expense.
DIY Formula Car
I forgot all about that. I was thinking that since there were Miata parts, this might be a sufficient reason for SCCA to support formula cars.
No disagreement that a 600cc bike engine in an FF would make a fun car. I also believe an unrestricted Honda in an FF with FC 6 & 8” wheels would make for an awesome car as well. Think older FB cars. While I think there is likely a few people who would agree I don’t think starting another class for this is a good idea for existing classes
For a new class to be healthy you need to build 350-500 cars minimally. If you don’t have that many clients ready to purchase your new car please don’t introduce any other new classes
no one who in currently competing in FF or FC is jumping ship for a new class. This is wholly evident with F600 and F1000. Very few serious competitors jumped ship. Sure a hand full of in and out guys did. And then it attracted a few newbs but clearly neither class took over small bore formula car racing. What it did do is take away from FF/ FC as if those classes didn’t exist there is a good chance those who choose to enter F1000 or F600 would have chosen FF or FC.
With a very limited number of people interested in open wheel racing any new classes will just divide the existing numbers of players into different groups
To grow either class there has to be a way to contain costs. As a guy who wants back in this is a major part of why I’m on the sidelines wishing , wanting and hoping for a return to more than likely FF.
If fields are thin and costs are high please explain to me why anyone new would join in. Certainly a chicken and egg scenario but I know I’m not the only one side lined due to escalating costs. Fix it and they will come.. ignore it and small bore formula racing will continue its slow demise
Cheers
Len
Porsche River Oaks. Houston
You may be right but I don't think this is true. There's a significant difference between a 13,000 rpm engine with paddle shifting and a 7,000 rpm commuter car engine with an H-pattern. New drivers want to feel like they're in F1 and I suspect they would've gone to F4 or something similar if FC was their only choice. Maybe they would've settled for FC if that was their only choice.
Totally agree and this is where the club falls on its face. We absolutely suck at bringing in new drivers.
Add in the constant threats of class consolidation or elimination and moving target of participation requirements. Why would anyone want to invest tens of thousands of discretionary income on something that could be rendered useless by yet another misguided edict? We really are gluttons for punishment.
Mike Beauchamp
RF95 Prototype 2
Get your FIA rain lights here:
www.gyrodynamics.net/product/cartek-fia-rain-light/
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