FIA-approved rain lights required starting 1/1/2024

[John LaRue]

Just a thought Mike - why not take a photo of your light with the label and stick it in your logbook along with the receipt? Not 100% but it might get you by.

[Mike B]

Just a thought Mike - why not take a photo of your light with the label and stick it in your logbook along with the receipt? Not 100% but it might get you by.

That's a good idea if you think it will fly. Better yet, how about if you state in your rec to the BOD as part of this rule that this documentation is acceptable for all. I won't be the only one with this dilemma.
This is well & good during an annual inspection but it would not surprise me if an authoritative Tech Inspector decides to check rain light compliance in impound. I don't plan to have my logbook with me at the end of race.

[Steve Davis]

FYI,
I just sent this new letter into the CRB/SCCA system...
Tracking Number: #34816

Coming back from tennis today, I noticed a LOT of trucks and trailers with some pretty bright looking lights on the back .. in broad daylight. That reminded me of the CRB decision to REQUIRE that Open Wheel and Sports Racers MUST HAVE AN FIA certified RAIN light.. while the entire REST OF SCCA classes are perfectly fine with DOT Rear (rain and not rain) lights. Needless to say, DOT lights are WAY more prevalent (and WAY CHEAPER) on US highways .. even in the RAIN than FIA lights. It's true that almost all DOT lights installed on closed wheel racers are 'not appropriate' for OW/SR cars .. but TRUCK & TRAILER lights will work just fine .. and are readily available without having to be sourced from a foreign country.


Can someone there please tell me WHY OW/SR cars are required to have FIA lights while all other classes are acceptable with DOT lights?



That's a very simple question .. and I'd like to hear a proper answer.. other than 'Tech is overworked and understaffed'.


Thank you,
Stevan Davis 56649

This confuses me, no end!

[toolo4sno]

I have a technical question for those that run a car without generator/alternator.

When your engine dies from low battery, what Voltage does it generally do that at? It might not be that consistent, but I am curious how far below 12VDC you can go.

[Purple Frog]

Just a thought... Watching races like F1 at Spa, CrasCar at Detroit... Cars with super effective diffusers seem to put quite a bit more spray up behind the car than NAScrash cars. Could that require stronger lights to penetrate the spray?

I have watched 30+ fields of F2000 cars take the green flag in a downpour at both Lime Rock, and WGI. There is a lot of water in the air. Just saying.

YMMV

[Rick Kirchner]

Froggie, I'm sure you've driven behind semis on the highway in a hard downpour. IMHO, 'bout the same.

Since we've been talking standards here, it sure would be nice to see what the FIA did - in a traceable, controllable , repeatable, experiment, to determine just what those illumination levels and angles needed to be.

next step - just how does that situation relate to a smaller number of cars running at lower speeds with tires that don't move nearly as much water, or as efficient aero.

Or how somehow, the deadline needed to be moved up, and also somehow, one board member, making a rather weak request of a number of individuals to solve a problem that wasn't even defined enough to approach a solution, concluded that we did not possess the technical chops to do so.

[Hardingfv32]

Can someone there please tell me WHY OW/SR cars are required to have FIA lights while all other classes are acceptable with DOT lights?

I think the DOT lighted cars are all closed wheel. Just a completely different level of mist between open and closed wheel cars for rain/track conditions that are equal. Watch the '22 Runoff's GT2 race. Many cars did not have any driving lights on (brake lights always function). The tail/brake lights that are on seem to be pretty visible. Maybe the size of the OEM DOT tail light assemblies is helpful. Note the leading Audi: I would say he is using a FIA rain light in addition to the stock tail lights. The FIA light is clearly brighter but the stock light assembly seems to be keeping up satisfactorily.

So from the CRB point of view, they know that none of these OEM DOT lights are going to be used on a Formula car as they are too big. Certainly they are going to cost as much or more than the latest FIA rain light. The stand alone DOT lights are not going to meet the requirements of a DOT approved OEM tail light assembly.

To sum up, the closed wheel classes have always had pretty good tail light assemblies. The formula/sr rear lights have been generally very poor. Upgrading the formula/sr rain light was an easy, if not long over do, decision. The need to upgrade the close wheel classes is not nearly as obvious.

Brian

[Rick Kirchner]

The stand alone DOT lights are not going to meet the requirements of a DOT approved OEM tail light assembly.
Brian

Uh, really? Because that's what's on the back of every Semi Trailer in this country.

[Steve Demeter]

The current standard is 2019. If in fact it gets updated every 5 years like someone speculated in an earlier post that means that we will have to buy a new expensive light for 2024 then the next year buy another one since I would expect that the powers that be would insist that we follow the latest and greatest standard. After all club racers are made of money, right,

[Hardingfv32]

Uh, really? Because that's what's on the back of every Semi Trailer in this country.

But there is a caveat.... Per the NHTSA:

"Having all DOT compliant lighting does not ensure that a vehicle is DOT compliant. Each vehicle must also have a specific configuration of lighting products to be DOT compliant.'

So in the case of the closed wheel classes, having two tail light assemblies goes a long way in helping them achieve decent rain condition visibility.

Brian

[Rick Kirchner]

But there is a caveat.... Per the NHTSA:

"Having all DOT compliant lighting does not ensure that a vehicle is DOT compliant. Each vehicle must also have a specific configuration of lighting products to be DOT compliant.'

So in the case of the closed wheel classes, having two tail light assemblies goes a long way in helping them achieve decent rain condition visibility.

Brian

Now you're just being pedantic

[pacratt]

I think the DOT lighted cars are all closed wheel. Just a completely different level of mist between open and closed wheel cars for rain/track conditions that are equal.Brian

Aren't Sports Racers "closed wheeled" ?

Glenn

[Marty Nygard]

Aren't Sports Racers "closed wheeled" ?

Glenn

Yes but, a lot of sports racers have significant ground effects that can vacuum water from the track surface making amazing rooster tails.
M

[FVRacer21]

One of my many frustrations with this rule is that there is no good way to mount the lights that allows for easy inspection to verify compliance. Because the FIA sticker is on the back, proving that it's compliant will almost always require disassembly. On my P2 it will likely mean removing the wing to remove the attenuator and a long extension to get at the two M6 nuts. It would be really great if Tech Inspectors simply recognized the compliant lights but I think we all know how that will play out.

Before mounting, take pictures of the unit and print them out with the instructions from the unit. I cannot imagine any tech inspector not being able to look at the paperwork and pictures and approve it. I do the same for any fuel cell or fire system. Belts are different as they are easy to inspect.

ChrisZ

[RussMcB]

Maybe we can post whenever we find good prices on rain lights that are on the list.

This is not a great price, but a data point ...

CK-LRS-16CM	CARTEK FiA 8874-2019 Circular Rain Light (Static/Flashing)	£114.95	1	£114.95
CK-LR-TS	CARTEK Toggle Switch for Rain Light	£16.50	1	£16.50
Delivery (DHL EXPRESS (ZONE 3))				£37.29
Grand Total (inc £0.00 VAT)				£168.74

That works out to $262 USD.

Subtract $21 if you don't need or want their toggle switch.

[Steve Davis]

Summit Racing sells the Lifeline rectangular version for $199...and free shipping.

[Steve Demeter]

Motorhead speed works sells the Car Tec round or rectangular for $149.99

[Steve Davis]

Motorhead speed works sells the Car Tec round or rectangular for $149.99

I think that should be MOREHEAD Speed Works - Lexington, SC

[Steve Demeter]

Thanks for pointing that out. I tried to remember from one screen to another and obviously got things mixed up.

[Steve Davis]

I have a technical question for those that run a car without generator/alternator.

When your engine dies from low battery, what Voltage does it generally do that at? It might not be that consistent, but I am curious how far below 12VDC you can go.

Peter,
The answer to your question is .. "it depends" ..on a number of things.
#1 What SIZE (Size DOES matter in this case) is your battery? In Amp hours.
#2 What ELSE is drawing current from your battery?

If you are using one of those super highpowered energy SPARK systems.. that draw ~3amps or more, your battery voltage will drop significantly faster .. I would expect that, if you ARE running that,, you would really HAVE to have some sort of charging system on your car already.
If you are running a 'simple' ignition system.. a 'regular' coil/points .. or even coil/Pertronix type system, you could reasonably expect to have a GOOD RUNNING engine down to around 11 volts or so... maybe even get down to mid 10's. It should start to MISFIRE, before it QUITS, but there won't be much between those 2 points. The LOWER it goes, the FASTER it goes....

If you have a LOT of other stuff 'hanging off that battery' (e.g. - Radio, Data System, HORN? :-), CAMERA and/or whatever else can draw current (other electric instruments .. OP, OT, etc), the voltage drop will be FASTER per lap - certainly almost unique for each car. Testing with a voltage monitor would be the only way to know for sure.

Batteries ON A CHARGER will "charge up" to something around 13.7 volts (unless Lithium), but as soon as the charger is removed, the voltage will 'float down' to something more like 12.6 volts (varies with battery age). Then as soon as a load (CRANKING an engine, running car) is added, that voltage will drop again down to .. something more like 12.1 volts. It will then stay around that number for 'a while' (depending on the size of battery, it's age and the actual 'draw' on the battery). At some point, it will start to drop again - more rapidly as time passes.
Steve

[problemchild]

I know this has been said already but I wanted to be the #500 poster on the worst thread ever on Apexspeed. Damn, I missed it.

This is an artificial crisis that will not save lives or have any significant effect on reducing crash damage. All it will do is fatten vendors wallets, at the expense of our community which was already in palliative care.

[John Nesbitt]

I know this has been said already but I wanted to be the #500 poster on the worst thread ever on Apexspeed. Damn, I missed it.

...

Still, you are the 500th reply. So there is that.

[tige00]

wow this thread finally stopped

[CheckeredFlag]

wow this thread finally stopped

That probably means everyone is at the 5th stage of grief: Acceptance.

[924RACR]

Or, consider this: it took nearly 500 angry posts and dozens of letters to finally get a board member to explain in adequate detail the process and considerations behind the decision.

But only in a semi-private forum, and not exactly officially.

[Terry Hanushek]

Without commenting on the adoption process or costs associated with this new generation of rain lights, I have a first hand observation. This morning at the Last Chance Major at Thompson the morning qualifying was conducted in intermediate rain. In the Wings and Things session, two of the cars, a P1 and an FC, had LED rainlights (assuming FIA 2019, but not sure). There was a dramatic difference between these two lights and all others in the session. Lights of this type are / will be a significant safety feature for racing in the rain. It appears that this will be a big step forward in 2024.

[tgaluardi]

I was working Station 9 at the Thompson Majors. It was raining and I asked the other two on station with me to observe the
rain lights. The lights did vary in there brightness, but they were all quite visible. One P-1 might have had the new light as it was
much brighter. However, ALL were visible in the rain as they exited our corner.

[Fred Michael]

I was working Station 9 at the Thompson Majors. It was raining and I asked the other two on station with me to observe the
rain lights. The lights did vary in there brightness, but they were all quite visible. One P-1 might have had the new light as it was
much brighter. However, ALL were visible in the rain as they exited our corner.

Visibility from outside the car is completely different from visisbilty from inside a following car

[Hardingfv32]

However, ALL were visible in the rain as they exited our corner.

And if there had been a great level of rain, at some point the old lights would have been obscured leaving only the new lights visible.

Finally with enough rain even the new lights are obscured.

What is the point of such a judgement? The simple fact is that the brighter light is always going to be better as conditions deteriorate.

Brian

[Rick Kirchner]

. What is the point of such a judgement? Brian

From what I gathered, that's pretty much what the FIA did to validate the light levels required, which was why I asked a loaded question on the several posts back.

[EACIII]

I was working Station 9 at the Thompson Majors. It was raining and I asked the other two on station with me to observe the
rain lights. The lights did vary in there brightness, but they were all quite visible. One P-1 might have had the new light as it was
much brighter. However, ALL were visible in the rain as they exited our corner.

One of the P1s did had then new FIA rain light. He told me his existing one broke so figure he may as well buy the FIA light

I was trying to pass a V with a very poor light on the front straight. And he completely disappeared when we hit the crossing water. But it was a tiny little light you could barely see even when there was no spray.

[kea]

I've read a number of the responses here.
I do not have a dog in this fight.

If, from the lack of response (public), this FIA standard is so important to SCCA, then it must be an all or nothing rule. Such as rules for helmets, seat belts, fire extinguishers, roll bar structure,
Either all classes must have one or the real need for this particular type of indicator is not that important. It should be removed from 2024 implementation..
If it's being pushed by members who have never raced or have only driven enclosed cars, well, they have never understood us who have raced "without fenders" anyway.
Thanks, that's my personal thought.

[Steve Demeter]

Keith I second those ideas. You hit it right on the head!!!

[CheckeredFlag]

September Fastrack has the FE loophole closed per letter by Robey Clark at Enterprises. I guess the FE and FE2's gotta run it, too.

The SRF's on the other hand get their own, special light: "Super Bright LEDs Inc. P/N PT-STRB-R24". It costs $22!!!! WTF??!!

[problemchild]

September Fastrack has the FE loophole closed per letter by Robey Clark at Enterprises. I guess the FE and FE2's gotta run it, too.

The SRF's on the other hand get their own, special light: "Super Bright LEDs Inc. P/N PT-STRB-R24". It costs $22!!!! WTF??!!

This sounds like the perfect alternate solution for everyone!
I think I will order one to use now. Certainly not putting a $200+ target on the rear of my cars unless made mandatory.

But is anybody listening ...................
After 515 posts, why would common sense come into play?

By listing several alternates, like this light, and older afterburner models, we can appease those with too much money who consider this a legitimate safety concern, and the rest of us who find this humorous, offensive, and nonsensical.

[rockbeau25]

Of course Larry's letter, which was probably the best alternative solution suggested, was quickly dismissed.

[LarryWinkelman]

The SRF's on the other hand get their own, special light: "Super Bright LEDs Inc. P/N PT-STRB-R24". It costs $22!!!! WTF??!!

$29.66 with shipping and tax, but at least that's not FIA-level pricing.
It also requires a new harness pigtail, $25 from Enterprises.

Still holding out some hope the BoD will step in, but not much.

[rockbeau25]

$29.66 with shipping and tax, but at least that's not FIA-level pricing.

Still holding out some hope the BoD will step in, but not much.

I wouldn’t hold my breath. Mandating SRF have a $29 trailer light while repeatedly ignoring dozens of letters from F/SR drivers is a big middle finger to us. It also completely delegitimizes the safety, lawsuits, needing one standard, etc arguments that were used to justify all of this. If there was ever a class that actually needed FIA lights it’d be SRF with the massive fields they draw and the spray that creates in the rain.

[Matt Clark]

I wouldn’t hold my breath. Mandating SRF have a $29 trailer light while repeatedly ignoring dozens of letters from F/SR drivers is a big middle finger to us. It also completely delegitimizes the safety, lawsuits, needing one standard, etc arguments that were used to justify all of this. If there was ever a class that actually needed FIA lights it’d be SRF with the massive fields they draw and the spray that creates in the rain.

Yea, it's actually insulting that one of the biggest & wildest classes gets away with something 1/5 (or less) the price the rest of us have to get. I guess the board didn't want that many people with money complaining... obviously the handful of the rest of us that do have to comply are manageable.
I was kinda getting on board with it, while not really happy with it, but now I am back to be pretty ticked off at it.


As I mentioned in previous replies, I did get the round Cartek 2019 FIA light & hook it up. This past weekend at Summit Point was dry, but I did play with it & show a couple guys... at dusk & full dark. 2 of the 3 guys were blinded & saw spots from 50 feet away, 1 of them said it is unsafe to follow in low-light scenarios (ie: Thompson Night Race). 2 other people came trotting over to see what the emergency was.

[CheckeredFlag]

I wouldn’t hold my breath. Mandating SRF have a $29 trailer light while repeatedly ignoring dozens of letters from F/SR drivers is a big middle finger to us. It also completely delegitimizes the safety, lawsuits, needing one standard, etc arguments that were used to justify all of this. If there was ever a class that actually needed FIA lights it’d be SRF with the massive fields they draw and the spray that creates in the rain.

The SRF3 light is indeed a "big middle finger to us". They get to use a single DOT trailer light, so why can't we use a single DOT trailer light. Everything John LaRue and Dayle Frame have said in this thread is now complete and utter hogwash. (I'm being nice.)