Road Atlanta cash grab ?

[Lotus7]

Am I interpreting motorsportreg correctly?
Load-in is at 8pm(!), but for an extra $50, they'll let us in at noon?

"This year we are offering an optional Early Load-In ($50/car - advance registration) on Wednesday, March 8 starting at noon. If you wish to participate, there is a separate registration link for it at
http://msreg.com/2023ATL-HST-ELI.
Normal paddock load in will begin at 8PM Wednesday evening. SCCA registration will be open from 11AM until 7PM, however. Load in for those not signed up for Early Load-In will not be allowed in until 8PM - All race car load in will STOP at 10PM until registration opens again at 7AM on Thursday."

[Charles Warner]

Like buying VIP Tickets to a wine tasting which allows early access and a selection of better wines. I'm surprised this hasn't happened earlier. One has to decide if getting the better paddock spots and back to the hotel while others are flailing around in the dark is worth it. YMMV,

[cory mcleod]

Another long-term SCCA racer and I were talking just the other day about how many more race weekends we used to run when we were much younger and had much less disposable income, yet feel the financial burden of racing much more now.

I guess this is just another, "thank you sir, may I have another?". After enough whacks with the paddle, your butt just gets numb. Effectively they just added $50 to my entry fee.

Load in has always been terrible at Road Atlanta, so if this helps then it's just another unnecessary $50 expense that I'm more than willing to pay.

[Hartley]

How do you guys find that info? I don’t see that RA is up yet on Motorsport Reg?

=cory mcleod;648993]Another long-term SCCA racer and I were talking just the other day about how many more race weekends we used to run when we were much younger and had much less disposable income, yet feel the financial burden of racing much more now.

I guess this is just another, "thank you sir, may I have another?". After enough whacks with the paddle, your butt just gets numb. Effectively they just added $50 to my entry fee.

Load in has always been terrible at Road Atlanta, so if this helps then it's just another unnecessary $50 expense that I'm more than willing to pay.[/QUOTE]

[Lotus7]

How do you guys find that info? I don’t see that RA is up yet on Motorsport Reg?

[.

[Lotus7]

How do you guys find that info? I don’t see that RA is up yet on Motorsport Reg?

[/QUOTE]

yes it is; just scroll

[patman]

Last year a buddy and I made the drive down for the ra super tour. Load in was a disaster. Registration was a disaster. Anything that had to do with track admin was a disaster. We both decided not to come back. Now they are charging money to make it less of a disaster?

Yeah I'll stick with my decision not to come back. This kind of crap is why tracks lose customers.

[problemchild]

Interesting perspectives. For those who visited the track pre-90, the current problems are manageable. With the Runoffs power in hand, the entire race operation, but especially paddock parking, was the most arrogant and corrupt organizing group on the planet. Well-connected locals were treated like royalty and unknown out-of-towners were completely abused. It was humiliating! Once they lost the Runoffs, the attitudes changed 180 degrees and became more tolerable, with the local southern hospitality coming into play. I find the current paddock crew to be helpful and welcoming but working within a very disorganized process.

Yes, it is a money grab. Yes it hurts the little guy the most, as $50 means more. As one of the best race tracks in the world, they can and will get away with it. Hopefully, whether intended or not, it will spread out the process and result in a more streamlined entry for many.

It does amaze me that more Regions do not study the Road America June sprints paddock entry process. It is extremely well-organized and gets a monstrous entry moved in very quickly and efficiently.

[cory mcleod]

How do you guys find that info? I don’t see that RA is up yet on Motorsport Reg?

It's on the event page at Motorpsortsreg.

[mmi16]

Interesting perspectives. For those who visited the track pre-90, the current problems are manageable. With the Runoffs power in hand, the entire race operation, but especially paddock parking, was the most arrogant and corrupt organizing group on the planet. Well-connected locals were treated like royalty and unknown out-of-towners were completely abused. It was humiliating! Once they lost the Runoffs, the attitudes changed 180 degrees and became more tolerable, with the local southern hospitality coming into play. I find the current paddock crew to be helpful and welcoming but working within a very disorganized process.

Yes, it is a money grab. Yes it hurts the little guy the most, as $50 means more. As one of the best race tracks in the world, they can and will get away with it. Hopefully, whether intended or not, it will spread out the process and result in a more streamlined entry for many.

It does amaze me that more Regions do not study the Road America June sprints paddock entry process. It is extremely well-organized and gets a monstrous entry moved in very quickly and efficiently.

Only did the Runoffs once at RA - their last year in 1993, was parked in the forest down by the creek. Had issues parking in the mid-2000's as I have a open trailer that has a number of tool boxes and tires and everything others carry in enclosed trailers. Was told I couldn't park on the skid pad - pushed the trailer back 10 feet so it was on the grass. I remember!

[cory mcleod]

Supps and schedule just posted for VIR Super Tour.

Entry Fee: $745
Spot in Main Paddock: $100

Suddenly Road Atlanta seems like a bargain...

[Steve Demeter]

Things are getting stupid expensive. $100 for a paddock spot!!!!!!

And people ask why the car counts in general are down...

[Dave Harmison]

Do you feel like a member of a club or just a mark to be hustled for another buck?

[Sean Gallagher]

I'm m guessing the track feels...You have a Race Car so you have excess money to spend.

[BRONCO]

A close friend and I only plan to attend because we have a good friend whos nearby house we stay at during some Rd Atlanta events. I think after this year I'll go back to fly fishing, It'll cost much much less and is more relaxing!

[reidhazelton]

Supps and schedule just posted for VIR Super Tour.

Entry Fee: $745
Spot in Main Paddock: $100

Suddenly Road Atlanta seems like a bargain...

Wait....entry fees are now $745?!

[Hardingfv32]

Do you guys live in a bubble? Has not everything gone up 10-15% over the last year. Is there any reason not to expect the track's business model to take this into consideration?

Brian

[reidhazelton]

Do you guys live in a bubble? Has not everything gone up 10-15% over the last year. Is there any reason not to expect the track's business model to take this into consideration?

Brian

The more it costs, the less people there are who can afford it. It has zero to do with a bubble.

I stopped racing about 8 years ago. Entry fees are now double. Incomes have not doubled. Pretty sure track operating expenses have not doubled.

I contemplated racing again here and there. I have a car to race, a trailer, and a truck to pull it. I have all the upfront stuff still left from when I raced 8 years ago, but $800+ entry fees make that really, really tough. It seems like a chicken/egg scenario. Entry fees go up, less people can afford it so there are less entries, so fees have to go up to cover costs.

But yeah, go right ahead and criticize people when when they express sticker shock. Great way to grow (or keep the club from shrinking at least) participation numbers.

[FVRacer21]

The BRSCC FF championship in England is about $600.00 us$ per entry.

https://brscc.co.uk/

The SUPER CLASSIC PRE-99 FORMULA FORD CHAMPIONSHIP is about $415.00 US

Some series have an entry fee for the series.

Hmmm - I wonder if having different fees per class might bring some more drivers back....or do we need to look at a totally different business plan to get the numbers back up.....???

ChrisZ

[Hardingfv32]

Entry fees are now double. Incomes have not doubled. Pretty sure track operating expenses have not doubled.

That just how American capitalism has worked for the last 2-3 decades. You got to love it.

In Calif, two Regions own and operate their own tracks. Entry fees while maybe 10% less than what the country on average is seeing, Have been increasing at the same rate as all other US tracks.

This is not on the tracks or regions/clubs, it is simply incomes not keeping up under this wonderful thing called American capitalism. Maybe it is time to do something about it?

Brian

[hdsporty1988]

The more it costs, the less people there are who can afford it. It has zero to do with a bubble.

I stopped racing about 8 years ago. Entry fees are now double. Incomes have not doubled. Pretty sure track operating expenses have not doubled.

I contemplated racing again here and there. I have a car to race, a trailer, and a truck to pull it. I have all the upfront stuff still left from when I raced 8 years ago, but $800+ entry fees make that really, really tough. It seems like a chicken/egg scenario. Entry fees go up, less people can afford it so there are less entries, so fees have to go up to cover costs.

But yeah, go right ahead and criticize people when when they express sticker shock. Great way to grow (or keep the club from shrinking at least) participation numbers.

Reid, come out and race with Midwestern Council. Right in your backyard and the cost isn't anywhere close to those entry fees.

[teamfun]

It's been awhile since Econ class but shouldn't a drop in demand be followed by a drop in price? It seems like it's always the opposite in racing. More racers staying home seems to require the remaining ones to make up for the difference. Seems like a death spiral to me...

[Peter Olivola]

It's been awhile since Econ class but shouldn't a drop in demand be followed by a drop in price? It seems like it's always the opposite in racing. More racers staying home seems to require the remaining ones to make up for the difference. Seems like a death spiral to me...

How do you suggest the Region make up the revenue loss?

[teamfun]

There are more factors involved than price but Econ 101 says: Lower the price, attract more cars.
There are other steps to take; marketing, improving the product...
Take a look at the competition, if NASA is running an event for $150 less why would racers choose the more expensive option?

Last year Cal Club lowered their rates; this year they moved all their races to the club owned track; at least they are trying to break the death spiral.

[Jayeff]

I can only say the % increase in the entry fees FAR exceeds the % increase in my wages. And Midwest Council racing, is a lot of bang for the buck.

[Peter Olivola]

There are more factors involved than price but Econ 101 says: Lower the price, attract more cars.
There are other steps to take; marketing, improving the product...
Take a look at the competition, if NASA is running an event for $150 less why would racers choose the more expensive option?

Last year Cal Club lowered their rates; this year they moved all their races to the club owned track; at least they are trying to break the death spiral.

How is NASA able to run an event at the same track for $150 less?

What percentage of a racing budget is entry fees? How much difference would it make to an overall racing budget to lower entry fees by $150 when the majority of SCCA competitors enter only about two events per year?

How would you improve the product?

How would you market the product?

Does Econ 101 account for the difference in insurance coverage?

[Bob Wright]

ECON 101...
Until the tracks start seeing empty weekends, they don't need to lower prices or negotiate. AFAIK, virtually all the (good) tracks are full every weekend and many have a waiting list. It's not just race series; add Chin Track Day events (65 days in 2022), Hooked on driving, Porsche Club, BMW Club, racing schools, etc, etc. There are new tracks being built, but many, if not most are private membership tracks with limited access by the public. We'll see if that changes over time.

Other factors....Cost of wreckers, ambulances, EMTs, corner workers, insurance- it all adds up. Did you know the cost to rent the "Pro Paddock" at Road Atlanta is $10,000 or more?

Now, you all complain about a $745 entry. Porsche Sprint cup- $3,900. F4/FR- $2.500. Radical Cup- $3.290. Trans Am, IMSA, etc...And there is no shortage of entries in any of these series. There is money out there to be spent, it's a question of where. At $745, there is no shortage of SRF or SM entries at any of the Super tour races.

[teamfun]

Jayeff - 100% agree on both counts. We'll be at Blackhawk with MCSCC in April. As prices increase, we're going to search the best use of our budget as well.

[teamfun]

How is NASA able to run an event at the same track for $150 less?

What percentage of a racing budget is entry fees? How much difference would it make to an overall racing budget to lower entry fees by $150 when the majority of SCCA competitors enter only about two events per year?

How would you improve the product?

How would you market the product?

Does Econ 101 account for the difference in insurance coverage?

All great questions and all things the Regions with support from National should be looking at.
We ran 5 races last year, 3 with the SCCA. We're planning on running 8 this year.

[Peter Olivola]

All great questions and all things the Regions with support from National should be looking at.
We ran 5 races last year, 3 with the SCCA. We're planning on running 8 this year.

Are you assuming the Regions and National aren't already looking at them?

[FVRacer21]

We are getting a little off topic.

Small NASCAR tracks run their own events and thereby need to keep car counts high in order to attract spectators.

SCCA (and most Road Course Models) The track sets a price and we take it or leave it. The region has to guess how many cars are going to show up and set the entry fee so they don't lose money.

Bob's examples are the reality from the overall demand side. If a track wants $100,000. to host a race weekend and the region decides they cannot take a risk, then the guy who will pay $70,000 for a private party will get it since the track can send 90% of their workers home.....

I would like to know for the SCCA owned track, what the payoff for the land and building the facilities is? 20 years? 30 years? The mortgage has to be included in the entry fee. Right now the supply of available track time is down, due to the number of car clubs and other events competing for track time. Yet our demand is also down, the number of cars competing is too low for many regions to take chances. If we had 300 cars at a National like Lime Rock in the late 70's and 80's, then tracks would be more interested in hosting races since the spectator turnout would be potentially high. Numbers of 20 thousand spectators at Lime Rock for the Cannon Nationals were not unreasonable. Today tracks are happier NOT to host spectator events as they put themselves at risk if weather goes bad...)

So the tracks are setting prices based on their costs and potential clientele. Most have little interest in the working of the organizations... How does our model adapt to the current conditions? Less but bigger races? Do we need to get sponsors to reduce entry fee? Focus on a specific track rather than a larger region?

ChrisZ

[Robins Ken]

The more it costs, the less people there are who can afford it. It has zero to do with a bubble.

I stopped racing about 8 years ago. Entry fees are now double. Incomes have not doubled. Pretty sure track operating expenses have not doubled.

I contemplated racing again here and there. I have a car to race, a trailer, and a truck to pull it. I have all the upfront stuff still left from when I raced 8 years ago, but $800+ entry fees make that really, really tough. It seems like a chicken/egg scenario. Entry fees go up, less people can afford it so there are less entries, so fees have to go up to cover costs.

But yeah, go right ahead and criticize people when when they express sticker shock. Great way to grow (or keep the club from shrinking at least) participation numbers.

Hi Reid . There must be hundreds of racers like you with the 'kit' in hand but nowhere to justifiably go and race. As in, hey honey, I am going to piddle away $2k this w/e because......????... So, The Lucky Dog concept, to name just one, is where it is at for track time. OK not a real race but a viable option. In the blue collar world most of us live in.

[Craig71188]

I think the "ECON101" message is this: the tracks are selling all their weekends to events and can get the money they are asking. The issue is SCCA isn't getting the entrants, they are going to "other" events that offer lower entry fees because they have higher car counts.

Gridlife: sold out most of their events in minutes when registration opened this year
Note the rise in the number of "track day" companies (more wouldn't be opening and staying if they couldn't make money)
NASA, Champcar, LeMons, Luck Dog, AER all vying for weekends - and often selling out events

New tracks opening - because there seems to be enough demand to support them, but SCCA isn't seeing the demand. I really wanted to like the new SCCA enduro series. Very good rules set, lots of talk about lowering barriers to get some of the "crapcan" series racers to come run...then the "final revision" of rules are announced. Must be an SCCA member and must have a physical to get a license ($250+) vs. Champcar $50 a year an no physical (for instance). Yes, as I get older I appreciate the SCCA's insurance and so on, but for the younger crowd, too many other on track options are the "easy" button.

[Peter Olivola]

I think the "ECON101" message is this: the tracks are selling all their weekends to events and can get the money they are asking. The issue is SCCA isn't getting the entrants, they are going to "other" events that offer lower entry fees because they have higher car counts.

Gridlife: sold out most of their events in minutes when registration opened this year
Note the rise in the number of "track day" companies (more wouldn't be opening and staying if they couldn't make money)
NASA, Champcar, LeMons, Luck Dog, AER all vying for weekends - and often selling out events

New tracks opening - because there seems to be enough demand to support them, but SCCA isn't seeing the demand. I really wanted to like the new SCCA enduro series. Very good rules set, lots of talk about lowering barriers to get some of the "crapcan" series racers to come run...then the "final revision" of rules are announced. Must be an SCCA member and must have a physical to get a license ($250+) vs. Champcar $50 a year an no physical (for instance). Yes, as I get older I appreciate the SCCA's insurance and so on, but for the younger crowd, too many other on track options are the "easy" button.

Do they have higher car counts?

Does anyone besides vintage (with higher entry fees than SCCA) get more entries than the June Sprints?

What are NASA's numbers, (which include HPDE sessions)?

I think you're under the mistaken impression than only SCCA has seen an entry decline.

[problemchild]

As customers, it is totally fair for racers to complain about rising costs, and wonder WTF is SCCA doing or not doing to keep the rising costs to a minimum.

As race organizers, it is totally fair to explain all the challenges of coping with the rising costs. We have to appreciate Atlanta Region people who have politely explained the costs and rationale behind the parking surcharge and general costs of the event. Likewise, Bob Wright has shared insight into the challenges he is facing as a race organizer.

Considering that there is virtually no transparency from SCCA management regarding any of these matters, it is fair game to want answers, and I know that I appreciate efforts from SCCA people to share any relevant info. I would suggest that those representing SCCA should refrain from challenging and insulting customers, and instead, provide information and insight that will help customers understand the challenges involved and how SCCA is managing those challenges.

[Craig71188]

Do they have higher car counts?

Does anyone besides vintage (with higher entry fees than SCCA) get more entries than the June Sprints?

What are NASA's numbers, (which include HPDE sessions)?

I think you're under the mistaken impression than only SCCA has seen an entry decline.

To answer your questions:
1) I don't have all the car counts. Also, several are a different business model (endurance racing) rather than mutliple (and multiples) of classes
2) Trotting out one SCCA event does not prove much of anything - take the market as a whole
3) Other groups saw a decline during Covid. The fact that many went from non-existant to the counts they have today while SCCA was stagnant at best should be telling to anyone.

Let's look at it this way. If the market has expanded enough to support ALL of these other entities and SCCA was on it's game, they should have seen significant growth as well. The fact that ALL of these other track use entities exist would seem to be because SCCA was not filling a need in the marketplace. And as it relates to the point of the thread, more demand for track use allows for the tracks to bill for more / at higher rates.

As I fast approach my 45th anniversary with SCCA, I do see some positive movement, but in any business, it's easier to keep competition out rather than displace them once they get in and get established.

[CheckeredFlag]

<snip>...would seem to be because SCCA was not filling a need in the marketplace.</snip>

This is my thought on the matter, too.

[Peter Olivola]

To answer your questions:
1) I don't have all the car counts. Also, several are a different business model (endurance racing) rather than mutliple (and multiples) of classes
2) Trotting out one SCCA event does not prove much of anything - take the market as a whole
3) Other groups saw a decline during Covid. The fact that many went from non-existant to the counts they have today while SCCA was stagnant at best should be telling to anyone.

Let's look at it this way. If the market has expanded enough to support ALL of these other entities and SCCA was on it's game, they should have seen significant growth as well. The fact that ALL of these other track use entities exist would seem to be because SCCA was not filling a need in the marketplace. And as it relates to the point of the thread, more demand for track use allows for the tracks to bill for more / at higher rates.

As I fast approach my 45th anniversary with SCCA, I do see some positive movement, but in any business, it's easier to keep competition out rather than displace them once they get in and get established.

I'll repeat my overall question: What would you do differently?

[teamfun]

As an update to this discussion... Cal Club's entry fees for 2 days of racing at Buttonwillow at the end of the month- $225. That's what they are trying.

[Robins Ken]

As an update to this discussion... Cal Club's entry fees for 2 days of racing at Buttonwillow at the end of the month- $225. That's what they are trying.

As a related comment the track, still MOSPORT to us luddites, has offered a Regional Friday test day for years. 1/2 day, per day or a season 'package'. (5) 1/2 hour sessions. Open wheel and a few radicals. The late session is usually traffic free. Entering the Regional is optional.

Caveat. Please check this years offering. I have not looked yet.

Drivers from the N/E may want to consider a bucket list visit to a legend of a track that is in good shape. The $ exchange rate is in your favour is about 20%. Border crossing. You may want to check. Be up front. Have a printed schedule and a bit of car ownership paperwork. Shut your engine off at the booth.

KR.