Saw this photo posted by cjahn with some for sale items. Do you have room to move the pedals forward to get down in the car?
Rollbar clearance
Saw this photo posted by cjahn with some for sale items. Do you have room to move the pedals forward to get down in the car?
HDSPORTY is making a strong point.
Having been on my head a few times... you really need to get down. It can be done. I've seen 6'2" guys fit with clearance in Reynards.
If you had been out in the pro series with Rand and I, you would have been black flagged.
I have been looking into it. I might be able to get a couple of inches out of the pedals, but then I think I might need to make something to get the lap belt forward. Last time I sat very low like that the belt was over my stomach. I didn't think that was right. If it was like a regular sedan 6 point belt I would just shrink the submarine part and call it a day. However with the formula style its not that easy. Or is it?
Belts
In a Formula car the sub belts are used keep the lap belt at the waist due to the semi reclining position.
to float or not to float?
Looking to get the correct size rotor for the front and was wondering about the benefits/drawbacks of going with a floating rotor.
Any tell tails, storys, direct experience, or hearsay would be appreciated.
Actually, they are called anti-submarine/crutch straps and are there to keep you from sliding forward. You can still have the lap belt improperly placed even if the sub straps hold it in position. There are several diagrams all over the interweb showing how the belts should be positioned. No excuses for not doing this properly.Originally Posted by hdsporty1988
"Crutch straps are designed to stop driver submarining through the harness in high ‘g’ decelerations."
From the Willans website.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
I have six point belts in my 90 Reynard. Very easy to adjust. Very important to keep you in the correct position under high G's. Be sure your lap belt comes across your pelvis and never rides above the crest and on your stomach. The pelvis can carry loads up to 5,000#, while your belly area can only withstand an 800# load before serious injury is given to your internals.
I'm adding a higher front roll hoop to mine this off season. The standard front roll hoop is lower than the top of my steering wheel.
I have SFI roll bar padding everywhere my bones can contact the bars. Makes for a tight fit. However, I prefer bruises to broken bones in a hard crash....
The car looks really strong coming out of the corners. She's making good torque and horsepower.
"An analog man living in a digital world"
Not a ton. Biggest advantage is the reduction in weight by going with an aluminum hat. First time I ran cross drilled rotors it was quiet an experience. They make noise......a lot of it.......high pitched and it took a few laps to adjust to it.
Sorry, last class was unlimited. Is it 1200# with or with out fuel (weighed after or before race)?
1200 at impound after race.
OK great! I guess I need to stop my diet then.
However, what is more important? The chassis being level or the corner weights? I spent like 15 min getting the chassis level and then 2hrs chasing 15lbs around the corners. Never getting them any closer.
Now the chassis is ok, but the shock perches are way different from side to side. (also the car has 4 different rocker arms if that matters).
I hated to change anything but I feel that the one spring perch was not tight and that corner of the car was almost on the ground, and I have had it up to here with repairing that side of the diffuser.
You need to go back to square 1! It appears you are working with a bitsa car and the parts may be suspect.
Trying to do this with different rockers is a fool's errand. Get the right parts (at least the same rockers left-to-right) and start over. Check your springs that they are the same rates/lengths. Make sure the shocks are not stuck. Run them to full soft on bump and rebound. Make sure the suspension points are not binding or sticking. Make sure the rockers are at the same angle, side-to-side.
Set the ride heights. Then check corner weights. Leave the fronts alone and adjust weights by changing the rear spring perches. It is more critical to have even weights on the fronts, allowing for variation on the rear.
You have to start with a valid platform. If one spring perch is loose and the car is almost on the ground then you probably have a spring that is too short. Get some spacers or the proper length spring.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
On these older cars where things might be a bit tweaked...
You did disconnect the ARBs before you started the setup.... right?
Aim for the front two weights to be close and ignore the rears for now.
Get the front ride height right.
Then put 5/8 to 3/4" of rake in it.
Are you racing on a track where the high G corners are mostly to the right, and the left side of the diffuser is wearing out?
Probably need to go up on either ride height or stronger rear springs.
Would help to know if the front edge of the diffuser or rear edge is what is hitting.
Rockers
Just an FYI, there are a pair of rear rockers on ebay for $500 which is a good price if you nee them http://www.ebay.com/itm/REYNARD-FORM...NZWw0Q&vxp=mtr
Like this
I can make either the rears match or the fronts match but not both at the same time. I will go back at it and make the fronts the same then and the rears will be off around 20lbs. If that is ok? Over the winter I will drop off the car at Linstrand. Till then I am going to keep what I have and maybe measure the rockers before I buy anything.
If i could get the fronts even, 20 lbs across the rear would not be a deal breaker.
If the course has a lot of serious right turns, I might even add about 5 lb bias to the right front.
Watching your video you don't seem to be just wanking around the course.
So... i think the car is rolling over on you. Probably too softly sprung.
I base line Reynards with about 750# in the front, and 650# in the rear. (Yes, i have gone more extreme.)
Averill sold a variety of front ARB choices. I went stiff.
Also, could the diffuser attachment be flexing under force? At 100mph that sucker is putting well over 100lbs of downforce on the area of the diffuser where the "kickup begins (up near the front of the diffuser).
You have progressed so far in this project. Are you sure you want to turn it over to a prep shop? If you stick to it, and keep learning, you will gain knowledge that will last a lifetime, no matter what class you progress to. There is a lot of joy in fixing the problem yourself, then driving the sucker around to a checker flag knowing you fixed it.
If you go the prep shop route. The learning trail stops. As always... YMMV
OBTW, my prediction. You'll progress in the Reynard, get addicted to the thrill. Reach the limits of the Reynard and buy a more modern chassis within 3 years. What you learn now about setups now will be invaluable when you move up.
FYI My cars (DB-1 and DB-3) use a similar rocker type suspension that your Reynard does. Finding suspension parts when you bend something can be a challenge. Notice I said "when" not "if" you bend something!! I am not gonna say the A-Arms are easy to find, but they can be located easier than rockers can. If these rockers on eBay are the right part for your car, you should get them. Just as a cost comparison, I was lucky and found a rocker for each corner of my car a year or so ago. The purchase price with shipping was right around $1600. So, figure $400 per rocker.
I am gonna assume the Reynard rocker mounts similar to how the Swift does. Where the rocker connects to the sheer plates, there is a bearing on each side of rocker and a shaft through the center. These bearings are wear items. Any time the rocker is off my car, and has been in service for over a year, that bearing gets replaced. I have had these fail at the track. The car is unusable if one of these bearings has failed. So, replace them regularly, and keep a spare with you.
When I looked at this car in MI the rear rockers were not the same. They have different motion ratios. You need to have the car symmetric to start with unless you're going circle track racing. I don't remember the front, but you should start by measuring them all.
Pat Prince probably has all the Reynard rocker jigs. He sure did enough for me.
I think i sold Bob Pagel in Appleton WI, a complete spare set in 2014....
Measure wheel rate and suspension rate. A good place to start is motion ratio squared. Should get you within 50 lbs of spring rate.
[COLOR=#800080][B]
You have progressed so far in this project. Are you sure you want to turn it over to a prep shop? If you stick to it, and keep learning, you will gain knowledge that will last a lifetime, no matter what class you progress to. There is a lot of joy in fixing the problem yourself, then driving the sucker around to a checker flag knowing you fixed it.
Purple raises a very good point; learn to fish rather than having a fish given to you. However using Lindstrand, or any prep shop that will provide information, could be viewed as a learning opportunity since they will provide a set-up sheet when they are done so a person who is new to the class has a good baseline starting point to learn from. They will probably also have recommendations regarding things that need to be corrected and what those corrections might be - such as the mismatched rock arms. All of this is knowledge that will serve a person throughout their racing career.
xmazdatracy you have been very open with the members of this forum and hopefully this information has been shared with you buy the Carroll Smith books look for them at your local used book store or from here : http://www.carrollsmith.com/books/
I've witnessed you progress quite a ways since you've come to this forum and there is not enough younger guys like yourself interested in the sport with the hunger for knowledge you've displayed.
Sure taking your car to a prep may help may help you but you are getting closer and closer each time I read this particular thread. Keep posting to this thread and this community will help you get over any mental or technical blockers you reach. There are multiple National champions sharing information that was hard won Dave W, Brian T just to name a couple and to be able to query their minds to get you pointed in the correct direction is invaluable.
If you already have the books then crack a beer and read "prepare to win", then tune to win, and engineer to win dog ear the sections that effect your current situation and digest the contents. 1 beer per book lol or you may not remember anything.
I sold my Atlantic about five years ago and the Northwest Formula Continental guys put the fire back in my belly so I bought another car F2000 to go racing again, my first FC was a 1990 Reynard back in "93 after 4 years of running a Reynard FF.
Good luck and don't give up. I'm not implying you're giving up by the way.
Last edited by Rick Brannon; 07.25.17 at 5:40 PM. Reason: Fat fingered
As many have said, the RF and LF suspension need to be the same and the RR and LR also need to be the same.
Amazing that you have done so well in a car that still has some issues that you have inherited from the previous owner.
Stick with it and you will be better off in the long run.
Kieth makes rocker arms for the front of Reynards. He can also obtain rears.
Last edited by rickb99; 07.28.17 at 3:38 PM.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
Also, did you disconnect the droop limiter when you were doing that setup? Just asking.
Don't panic without measuring. Many Reynards have rockers that appear to be different, but they are the same ratio.
Different shops use different reinforcement designs, especially on the rears, so they look different.
A quick check will tell you. Just measure from the centerline of the pivot points out to the attachment on the rocker, and centerline to attachment of the damper. Compare the two rockers that way. That will tell you a lot. i'm guessing they are the same.
It is possible for a rocker to be bent. A little harder to check for. Rare. If it happens there is usually an obvious kink in the metal. That could explain a radical difference in how the spring perches look on the two shocks. Just saying.
As a quick baseline... I set up Reynards to have very little wheel movement. In that setup "sweet spot" the motion ratio of the suspension is about .5. In other words if the wheel moves up 1" the damper compresses about 1/2". Therein lies the reason old rocker cars can't compete with modern push rod cars. Push rod cars get motion ratios of 1:1 or even higher. So, the pistons in their dampers move more and can better use the valving. In out old Reynards the pistons just "flutter". Sometimes we get better damping just running on the bump rubbers. LOL
Also, one inch of wheel travel only compresses the spring 1/2". With a 750# spring on a front corner, that one inch of movement is only resisted by 375# of resistance. So. though it seems like we are running heavy springs... not so much.
That said don't compare rocker car setups to some fast guy in a pushrod car.
Calculating corner spring rate on many fast reynards is sort of hard. We will run so stiff a spring that the flex in the rockers actually is the spring. That and the spring rate of the tire (pressure dependent). I one time thought that I could get the weight down by just replacing the dampers with adjustable rods. Much like the time I ran 1200# fronts and 1000# rears.
Reynards don't have to be crazy stiff to go fast. You are correct though in that you shouldn't compare a more modern car setup to a Reynard. They require different setup strategies to go fast. The newer cars are run way stiffer than you could run a Reynard.
That said don't compare rocker car setups to some fast guy in a pushrod car.
Calculating corner spring rate on many fast reynards is sort of hard. We will run so stiff a spring that the flex in the rockers actually is the spring. That and the spring rate of the tire (pressure dependent). I one time thought that I could get the weight down by just replacing the dampers with adjustable rods. Much like the time I ran 1200# fronts and 1000# rears.
Corner weights. Start by setting the rears, get them within 10lbs. Move to the front and do the same. Check the rears make sure they are still within 10 lbs. Adjust as needed to get front and rear within the 10 lbs. Job done, go race. Spending all day to get it exactly is not worth your time.
My current car, 1991 VD FC, it is a bit lower on the right side than the left (1 mm) when the corner weights are within 10 lbs. Should expect that on a chassis that is as old as mine and yours. Both are still great cars that are a TON of fun to drive!
Aaron
OK, DONE! I really appreciate all the help and the encouraging words too! I needed that. I felt that this was getting over my head but I did some more apexspeed searching and a phone call to Averill to get some finite numbers and shes done. I admit she sits way higher now. The car had no rake it it at all. And the car was 3/4" lower on the left front side, and who knows in the rear I couldn't even get under there to measure. I did measure all the rocker arms and they are indeed the same size. But most definitely not the same shape. Front has a slimmer arm and a boxier arm. Rear has a normal looking one and a reinforced one. Still from side to side the shock perches have 7 threads different in the rear and 10 in the front.
Any who last week I leveled her out, and could not get the corners to match and stopped, Tried it again a week later with a bit more knowledge and confidence and got the corners to match (within 2lbs) and then put a 1/2" rake in it (I cant get the front down as much as Averill told me to, so I don't want to go to high in the rear) and rechecked the corners. With everything set I then moved on to the alignment. Made my self some fancy alignment sticks and I got everything the way I want it. Rechecked the corners and all great! Not bad for $80 in scales $5 in hardwood (all I have laying around), and what ever I sucked down from the keg.
Also, I am now 2 1/2" below the broomstick test. But boy am I crammed in there! I hope I don't get a leg crampLets hope I can put this stuff away.
Thanks again for all the help and support guys. Three days of work and then a night time commute to the track for my next race on Sunday!
Sunday
See you Sunday!
Reynard
Best of Luck this weekend !
Shorty...
Sorry I wasn't following this until today. It helps that I am very short in a big car... Hope to be there Saturday. Dad will be crewing on Sunday....
Cj aka Corky aka Cjahn (Black Stohr 71 FA; Hope to have more FAs this weekend!)
I thought I saw your dad signed up for the race with us? I hope he is doing well. I have spent many many laps with your dad and feet very safe to get up close racing with him (you can tell in my videos). I hope soon I can get faster and share the same with you. I unfortunately work today so I wont get to the track till tonight Please excuse any stupid thing I do as I am still learning to shift and find the best line for the Reynard. Hope nick lasts the whole race so you have someone to play with.
Oh yes, i remember those regional racing days, passing just about everything on the track, and imagining that the next phone call will be from Chip or Roger.
Only thing bad about it; is that you lose the practice of needing your own mirrors. Enter a Major and you'll feel like the duck in the shooting gallery. But enjoy for now!
For sure, you have to feel great. Well deserved. i say. Look how far you have come since the start of this thread. Many congratulations!!!!
You have done good. You have proved again how much fun a CFC car can be.
Oh, and OBTW, Since you aren't wanking around, i may have to change my prediction about you moving up to a modern chassis.
OBTW, saw the bike shop decals... I have a 1986 Torpado Super Strada (all Campy) hanging in my shop.
Probably has more than 40,000 miles on the frame. Just did a full restore on it.
Too many bike nerds here. You may have 40,000 miles but have you been hit by cars 4 times? I just set my fourth yesterday. Apparently signaling to turn left here in Cali (land of the idiot drivers) is really a signal for the car to pass me on my left in oncoming traffic. Fortunately this one did not cause any damage (I cannot say the same for all of them).
OBTW, saw the bike shop decals... I have a 1986 Torpado Super Strada (all Campy) hanging in my shop.
Probably has more than 40,000 miles on the frame. Just did a full restore on it.
Okay, on to racing. Two questions:
1) Is it normal for the exhaust to be that close to the bottom element of the rear wing? Seems like it would disturb air flow there. I know it is a low pressure area and so eases exhaust but there are other areas that have that trait as well. I know nothing since I drive FF and have no aero aids.
2) what is the collar on the steering rack that has a mind of its own and moves even when there is no apparent steering input? I was totally mesmerized by it for a while.
Eric Little
The white nylon bushing keeps one from turning the steering so far that it would run the rack off the pinion. A steering stop.
I too think the exhaust is too high, probably disturbing the airflow on the underside of the wing. Not a huge deal at this point in his career. Later when he's looking for hundredths of a second he can fix it. (upper element makes more downforce than the lower one) Its so obvious because he's running a muffler. We never ran mufflers, kept the pipe closer to the top of the diffuser.
I always thought car racing was way safer than riding a bike on roads shared with cars.
Nylon (or metal) stops on a steering rack are normally there to keep a wheel/tire from running into the lower a-arm, if turned too far.
The lower wing adds balance at those low to mid range speeds. While important for added rear grip, not as much as the uppers when it comes to higher speeds.
Blackhawk Farms... What a neat track. Loved it every time I managed to venture that far from home.
Congratulations!!!!!!
40,000Mi!!! Wow... I may have worked on 40,000 bikes, lol. And yes PF it is way way safer to race cars than it is to ride bikes. The day I moved back form college is the day my road bike went on sale. DeKalb and surrounding COUNTRY roads were much much safer. I remember I could spin out a quick 25Mi and see ten cars at most. Here I have customers weakly bringing in bikes after being hit by cars, and more popular... people. The "on your left" means nothing. We sell air horns and very loud digital horns. They are the only thing that works. Sadly. Its very rude but, some of my best customers are a bit older and for them to get into a incident means a great deal of down time. %90 of my riding is single track. I ride during the week. I see no one. 12-30 miles of pure apexing. Trees are a greater teacher than gravel traps.
PF is right. I am out there still learning. 100ths of a second or 10ths of a second means nothing to me. Right now I am trying to master the MK9. And all the while just having fun. I have proven all I want in the last car I owned. I have nothing left in me that says my plastic trophy needs to me 1/2 inch higher than anyone else's plastic trophy (heck, I don't even bother getting it). I do however plan on removing the muffler when I get the back body work price from Averill. Till then It is keeping my neighbors happy.
One question is (and you can see in the video) it normal to wear grooves in the rear inner tires? Should I camber them out? All the rest of the tires are at the same wear, but the inner rear tires the wear marks are gone! They seem to be heat cycled out so I am not sure it this is just they way bias Hoosiers work.
There are currently 30 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 30 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
