I have no idea how that post that was here appeared here.
I have no idea how that post that was here appeared here.
Last edited by HayesCages; 03.18.17 at 2:38 PM.
Lawrence Hayes
Hayes Cages, LLC
Sagle, ID.
The Reynards that had the kill switch in that location had a wire pull that went to the outside of the body so the corner worker could pull the grab handle outside and it would turn the handle behind your shoulder.
To get a "y" for the cooling system you must buy two Mandrel bent 90 degree aluminum tubes. Then cut them and weld together. Like I said before; "if it was easy, everybody would be doing it."
I never needed a pump to get fuel in a Reynard.A dump can with a long plastic tube seemed to work well for 15 years.
I did use the Horid Fright pump to pump all the oil out of the oil tank during my occasional oil changes.
Last edited by Purple Frog; 02.26.17 at 11:00 PM.
Originally Posted by Fred Michael
I got one there too.
What do you guys use to clasp together the cowl and the engine covers?
A combination of Toggle latches and Ruba Guy fasteners. ( I was able to get a batch of new Ruba Guys from England) I could have just used O rings but like the Ruba Guys.
OK used the horror freight one tonight and it leaked all over. I would be better off just sticking with the way I was fueling my last car (like PF). Dont get me wrong I like Pegasus, but they dont mandate prices. Its the masses with the belief of "I can out spend more than my competitor to win" that do. There is got to be something in the middle...... Also I too can reach down past the body work and unscrew the fuel cap
A brief visit to the ground as I bleed and fill things. Yup weird pods, but I like em. Deal with it
I have a decent amount of wet/color sanding and buffing to do before I place my needed stickers. In the mean time I am getting the very select vinyl artwork finished to get to... yes you guessed it a reasonable priced vendor. And no I am not. My last name is Tracy.
I think this is a lot like comparing a Protege (general use) to a FC (purpose built). There's a vast array of options inbetween; say a more expensive hand pump or a cheaper crank pump. If you are looking to buy something racing specific, it's going to cost more.
Also, a $200 fuel transfer pump isn't preventing anyone from getting their car to the track (formula or otherwise). Racers at the front end of the pack are going through three sets of $1,200 Hoosiers per weekend. And let's not even mention engine rebuild costs. Just wait until you start look at telemetry systems, or replacing the fuel cell.
I used an electric pump setup. Total investment about $50.
I use one of these:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-12s/overview/
with some clear hose and a trigger switch:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/anm-cp7853
all mounted in a plastic toolbox:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/The-Home-...1512/202021300
One end in the gas can, the other in the filler neck with a clamp holding it.
Pull the trigger and watch. Less than 10min to fill and empty tank with NO spills....
Everything goes back into the toolbox (except battery)....
You'll grow to adjust to life with Pegasus. They do provide the most comprehensive source for our style of racing. Remember, many of the things they sell have a very low volume and sit on the shelf a long time waiting on a buyer.
I have accounts with Summit, Jegs, Aircraft Spruce, BAT, McMaster Carr, as well as Pegasus. With my current project I have found Pegasus to sometimes be the only source for some weird do-dad. As you stay in the sport you will build a list of many suppliers. The great thing about Apexspeed is the members readily share their sources for hard to find pieces.
On the fuel deal. The top teams are very anal about fuel use numbers and weight. They are setting up their cars to cross the scales in impound at 2 to 5 pounds over minimum. To achieve that level of exactitude they pump their fuel cells dry after every session to measure usage/lap. By recording how much they started with against what is left they build a knowledge of fuel usage for that track in that weather. Then they start the race with a calculated volume. To do all this measuring, most use an outboard electric fuel pump to drain the cell into an empty bottle. After years in the paddock I have observed most teams fill the car with a dump can and long spout.
Then there are us "clubbies" that just start each race with a full cell and don't fret the small stuff.
Well everything went together fine. Starts easy and idles great. However when I went to move the car it sounds like the clutch is not disengaging. On the low stands I was able to work through the gears just fine. But when on the ground I try and put in gear and it lurches and dies Like I dont have the clutch pressed down.
So I tightened up the arm thingy as much as possible. Now the pedal is very tight (hard to push). Still nothing. Then I removed the pedal stop and was able to get a ton more movement (all the way to the frame) and still nothing. The clutch bleed out fine.
Is there such a thing as going to far? maybe I was supposed to go less. I ran out of time to try and see if there was a "sweet spot". I mean why else would there be a pedal stop. Now I am off to work and can only wonder.
All thats left is for vinyl work and making the seat. I really would hate to have and take the motor out again.
I assume the clutch is hydraulic? If not there are other possibilities beyond what I mentioned below.Well everything went together fine. Starts easy and idles great. However when I went to move the car it sounds like the clutch is not disengaging. On the low stands I was able to work through the gears just fine. But when on the ground I try and put in gear and it lurches and dies Like I dont have the clutch pressed down.
So I tightened up the arm thingy as much as possible. Now the pedal is very tight (hard to push). Still nothing. Then I removed the pedal stop and was able to get a ton more movement (all the way to the frame) and still nothing. The clutch bleed out fine.
Is there such a thing as going to far? maybe I was supposed to go less. I ran out of time to try and see if there was a "sweet spot". I mean why else would there be a pedal stop. Now I am off to work and can only wonder.
All thats left is for vinyl work and making the seat. I really would hate to have to take the motor out again.
You definitely need a pedal stop. If you over-stroke the diaphragm (Belleville) spring you will yield and ruin it. You could also over-stroke the slave piston to the point that it will come out of its bore or the o-ring won't seal.
If it's hard to push, you may be using the wrong TO bearing and engaging the fingers too far from center. The TO bearing should engage the fingers as close to the center as possible w/o slipping off.
Any chance the disk or PP are warped (not unusual). If so that may hinder operation/disengagement.
It's also possible that the input shaft guide bearing in the FW is binding. Or that the disk is binding on the input shaft or stuck somehow to the PP or FW.
Last edited by DaveW; 03.13.17 at 11:17 AM.
Dave Weitzenhof
If you have a racing type clutch you can go too far.
Edit: 2 minutes too late :-)
Last edited by HayesCages; 03.13.17 at 11:23 AM.
Lawrence Hayes
Hayes Cages, LLC
Sagle, ID.
Questions:
Was the clutch pedal stop already installed and set at that position or did you remove it and install it at some time?
Are the clutch parts, TO bearing, crank bearing, slave cylinder new/rebuilt or just installed as you got the car.
IMO, anytime the car is split - if using a stock Ford clutch, the clutch disk should be replaced, along with the TO bearing. Cheap insurance. If using a racing clutch, i.e. AP, then at least measure the disk thickness(es) and replace if below .100". Its also not a bad idea to replace the seals in the slave cylinder if the age is unknown.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
Man I guess I have to split the car again. The clutch, disc, and flywheel all seemed in pretty bad shape. I just thought the little use the clutch gets used, and the fact that it was in first place condition when last run I just slapped it back into the car with a new TO bearing and a fresh cylindrical slave rebuild.
Guess I will get fast at pulling the motor.
Re the fuel transfer pump, I have the Pegasus one and it works really well. Fits onto a 5 gallon jug properly, no spills, no mess, delivers fuel accurately. That 6 dollar pump doesn't even look worth 6 dollars.
I would not split it yet.
It may be that you just need to bleed the clutch again.
With a helper. And the car on the floor not running. Put it in gear. Then with the helper leaning on the car slowly push the clutch pedal in. If the slave is working at some point the car will start rolling free. If so... you are almost there.
You need to reset the stop to a point where the car rolls free.
Now in your case, if you could drive it and get it warm the parts may free up. If i was on the grid i would elect to start last for the session. Warm up the engine so it will start easy. Shut the engine off. Put it in first gear. Flip the ignition switch on. Then with afore-mentioned helper pushing on the rear of the car, hit the starter, and drive off. Drive the session and see if the splines, etc. loosened up.
I've seen cars run a rain race and then a few days later the disk won't disengage from the flywheel because of rust. The above trick frees it up.
I once did a double race weekend with no working clutch. Just saying.
****
I usually put a tiny amount of lub on the splines of the input shaft. Then wipe it off. Then practice moving the disc back and forth on the shaft to make sure it slides freely before the final install.
I fear you have fallen into a very common newbie mistake. When installing the engine, sometimes when newbies have it very close, they then use the bellhousing bolts to pull the assembly together. If the splines aren't quite right, or there is a bit of mis-alignment, then they bend the clutch disk to the point that it is warped and won't disengage.
Hoping that didn't happen.
Another possibility...I'm assuming it is a 7 1/2" racing disk. Could you have put it in backwards?
Just thought of this too: If, when you installed the disc, it was off center by a micron and got clamped under the cover it would do this. Don't ask me how I know.
Lawrence Hayes
Hayes Cages, LLC
Sagle, ID.
There are too many indicators suggesting the car be split and all parts be examined carefully and replaced where needed. Also, be very careful about the order in which things are assembled and the techniques used. Froggie mentioned the all-too-common technique of pulling the assembly together with the bell housing bolts. Bad form!
If the gearbox does not smoothly slide into place (if the alignment is right) then there is something wrong. Pull it back, lube the splines a bit, re-center the clutch disks (you are using a proper tool, yes?) and try again. If it still won't go, then try removing/re-installing the clutch to verify the disks are in properly and the pressure plate is not warped. (Assuming a racing clutch.) And, make sure you torque the clutch mounting bolts evenly. If you simply crank down on them then you will have different forces around the disks.
The OP mentions the "pretty bad shape" of the flywheel and clutch. One has to wonder why they were re-used. If it was a case of saving money, that is false economy. FRAM!
And, the very distinct possibility of over-stressing the clutch splines (possibly terminal) exists. Until the need for a pedal stop is understood and one installed there is no need to go further. The technique of having a friend try to rotate the tires with the car in gear while the clutch is pushed is a good way to determine the release point of the system.
If you are not totally familiar with putting the car back together then invite someone over who is. Or, if that is not possible, take the car to a shop and have them do it - while you watch and learn. That is a good use of funds. Also, check for diagrams, instructions, videos available. Do not just "slap things" together.
Yes, you can drive it without an operative clutch - something you should be able to do IF it happens at the track.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
Whelp, as I was going to warm the car up after a "last chance bleed" to see if I could rock the disc free the oil filter o ring popped again. I thought the first time must have been a fluke or the wrong size filter.
But no. Now its a second time and both times the oil pressure is way over 100psi. Well so much for the free oil that came with the car. I am hoping that it is just a stuck oil pressure relief valve that I will adjust/rebuild when the motor is out and getting the clutch (possibly flywheel) sorted.
Lame paragraph no need to read;
One of my first jobs was working for Bo at Elite Autosports. In fact I couldn't even help in the pit lane because of my age. But one huge lesson I learned from Bo and has helped me in so many ways of my life is to "hurry up and wait". I know I have a little more than two months before my first HPDE/Race. But I fully expect the unexpected. I would love for this all to be done and to be just waiting on stickers and a seat, but well... look stuff like this comes up. Especially when you are caring for 9-13 SRFs something would always be found in between sessions. And if found early, then you had time to fix it. And I am extremely thank full that you all have been helping me with your experience and knowledge. I will sleep better when the car is fully sorted, and I can hope that I make it through Saturday and race Sunday.
There was a thread a while back on too much cold oil pressure. I can't find that thread at the moment. But the bottom line was too high oil viscosity. Using a 5W30 synthetic racing oil solved it, IIRC.
Found the thread - the relevant part starts at post # 8.
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...hlight=spewing
Last edited by DaveW; 03.15.17 at 1:12 PM. Reason: found the thread
Dave Weitzenhof
Ok that does make sense. I will get some race 5w30 oil for when it comes back together. I still want to open up the pressure adjustment since there was a lot of black stuff in the oil system. It was like finding the "thing" from the movie of the same name.
However I feel the oil pressure gauge is broke too. The gauge (even when not hooked up during the rebuild) never read below 20. Now it sits at 40, However the warning light would come on and I knew to look back at the exon valdez spill. Guess I will try to see if there is a way to re-calibrate it, otherwise that's not a welcome expense to replace it.
Can I ask where you guys get your oil????
You will find a bazillion opinions on that in these pages. Basically, any quality oil at a viscosity that maintains hot oil pressure at 10psi/1000 RPM up to the relief valve setting is OK. If it has a decent amount of ZDDP in it that's better.
I find the Mobil 1 4T oil has decent amounts of ZDDP and is readily available. Dave's a Valvoline fan, you'll find people here that swear by Redline products, and some that go for the Brad Penn/Joe Gibbs specialty oils.
Oil is heavy and costly to ship, so I tend to go with what I can get from a local retailer.
I get Valvoline VR1 10W30 synthetic (Valvoline part # 679083) at NAPA or Amazon ($8-10 per qt). Amazon has free shipping over $35. Note that VR1 is available in non-synthetic. If the price is much less than $8 per qt it is likely not synthetic.
Last edited by DaveW; 03.16.17 at 11:48 AM. Reason: added part #
Dave Weitzenhof
Over-pressure on a mechanical gauge will yield the Bourdon tube, which flexes to move the needle. The more it yields, the higher the needle will sit at zero. If it's just a little, you can reposition the needle. But for 40 when it should be zero, it's probably toast.
Dave Weitzenhof
ok, Ill bite. Why the recommendation for synthetic?
Synthetics are by nature more temperature stable. So they do not need as many/much Viscosity-Index additives and are more shear-stable. So as you use them, they will last longer and hold oil pressure better at high temperatures over 200F.
The VR1 synthetic also is high in ZDDP, so wear is minimized.
Dave Weitzenhof
Also, since they burn at a higher temperature they don't self-dirty as much, nor do they need as much detergent, which also burns and dirties the oil.
Not to mention easier starting on those mornings early in the season...
Tracy - you don't have to change oil on these often. IF you were to average 100 mph, typical FC Pinto life will come in at 2500 miles. That synthetic oil is only 1/4 of its way through life, and if you are like most of us, you've probably added twice as much or more to burn-off and puke than the car actually holds, so the oil that comes out isn't even related much to the oil that went in.
Some people only 'change' the oil during a rebuild on the Pinto. Usually at 2,500 to 3,000 miles.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
oh! Wow. I was changing my last cars oil @ 250-350mi.
http://tiltonracing.com/wp-content/u...lic-Clutch.pdf
Here is the plate and flywheel. In my last car I would resurface both, However I used my clutch a lot. In this car I think the only time you need the clutch is to get going and if you miss a gear so I am not so sure if I really need to do anything.
I got a new clutch pilot tool, however it not that much tighter than the last one I had. I guess I will try and be a bit more careful and will go back to the radius TO bearing. If you guys think the plate and flywheel are ok and the disc is indeed less than .008 warped I will try this again.
Last edited by xmazdatracy; 03.18.17 at 9:41 AM.
put a straightedge across both the flywheel and pressure plate and see if any light gets underneath....
And if there's more than 0.015" gap, it can cause issues. If it's more than 0.030", it WILL cause issues.
The wear limit total for all components is 0.030". If it is worn that much and the surfaces are flat, it can cause slippage. If things are worn in a conical shape, it can cause disengagement issues.
Related thread:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...%27t+disengage
Dave Weitzenhof
I think you are going down the road of false economy. You say you got a new clutch tool but it isn't any tighter than the previous one. Do you think that maybe the splines are worn on the discs? And, with worn splines, worn bolts, used washers, badly scored flywheel and pressure plate, and minimum thickness discs, could this be your issue? Also, have you checked the gearbox-to-adaptor-to-engine mating surfaces are square and smooth/clean? The engine should be fine but, in older, well used cars, it is common to find these aluminum surfaces have been dinged and crushed, especially between the adaptor and gearbox. You may need to have the surfaces trued to insure the alignment of the gearbox is proper. If it isn't you will have a myriad of problems, all of them leading to more expense.
That clutch is obviously beyond its sell-by date. Flywheel and bolts as well. Just because you don't think you'll use the clutch very much while driving, don't think you can "get by" with shoddy equipment. Whether you espouse shifting with the clutch or not, as you learn to drive this car you will use it - and it should be in proper working order.
Another thing to think about - you measure something and it is within limits, but at the lower end of those limits - replace it while you are there.
You can find good usable used clutch sets for under half of what a new one costs. Verify the splines and I might have one I'll let you have quite reasonable.
This road to false economy will only lead to frustration and heartache down the road, including spending money going to a race and getting one or two laps in and having something fail that can not be replaced at the track. It has happened to all of us. It ain't no fun realizing you spent over $1000 a lap for a race weekend.
Or, as I am wont to say - FRAM!
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
clutch
The best and ultimately the cheapest cure is to replace the floater, pressure plate, discs and check the flywheel for straightness. Check alignment and concentricity of the pack. If you do this and don't use the clutch like you might in a street car slipping it everywhere it will last reliably for a long time. The 2 plate Quartermaster geardrive clutch in my March/ BMW V12 lasted for 6 seasons and it has a lot of torque. Compared to the other costs of racing this is plain and simple good economy!
I don't think anyone runs more than a single plate clutch in a FF, mostly to save on the weight. If you don't slip it a lot driving through the paddock, they last for a long time except for disk cracking at the slots.
Dave Weitzenhof
I believe this is a 2 liter, but same point. A single disc racing clutch, properly installed, even if you use if to shift up/and/or down will last several seasons.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
I'd recommend everyone to take a small Dremel type stone and smooth the inside radius of those little punched holes. Chances of cracking will be measurably less.
Lawrence Hayes
Hayes Cages, LLC
Sagle, ID.
Theoretically, that should help. However, the couple of times I tried it, they still cracked. So I quit doing it. Been quite a few years, though. Maybe I'll try that again next time I'm in there.
Dave Weitzenhof
Luckily Reynards of his era don't have adapters frammed in between the engine and bellhousing.
Are you using a quality oil filter such as Wix or Napa Gold?
WIX - Oil Filter
Line: WIX | Part # 51348
narrow enough that it does not hit the starter and short enough to fit inside the frame of the car. The first one that leaked was a mobile 1 m1-102 of the same size.
Not sure its the oil filters fault the pressure is high. I mean the pump pumps it through the filter and into the oil galley, and that is where I get my oil pressure reading from. So its way over 100 past the oil filter. Its just that the oil filter cant take the high psi. But I wonder why the oil psi is getting so high going through the motor in the first place. I would like to get the car up to temp first and see what happens to the oil pressure/volume after the fact.
Also there was much less than .010 gap on both flywheel and plate. I got some things to go through. I will let you guys know. Thanks again for all the info and ideas!
Last edited by xmazdatracy; 03.19.17 at 8:07 AM.
What is the oil?
I've lost track if you mentioned it before - what is the viscosity and type of oil in the engine during these high oil pressure events?
Dave Weitzenhof
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