Formula Mazdas for sale?

[Slowfrc]

I am highly considering purchasing a race ready formula mazda to club race, but that would require me to sell my corvette z06 that I love to track, so I am just trying to get an extremely detailed idea of what kind of world I am getting myself into.

I used to race karts and am very familiar with that world. I was also considering buying a spec miata or camaro mustang challenge car, but the prices people want for a spec miata is outrageous, and you can only race a camaro mustang challenge car in NASA. FM also apeals to me because SCCA looks like they take racing more seriously. My z06 is too nice to race wheel to wheel, and club racing a corvette will be just as expensive if not more expensive to race than a FM, in my opinion, considering a 335/30/18 Hoosier A7 is $375. Then if you put a full cage in a street car its unsafe to drive on the street anyways.

I would like to get a season or two of racing in before any major overhauls were needed (engine, transmission, differential). While I'm on the subject, how difficult is it to overhaul the driveline? I am pretty mechanically inclined, and have done this task multiple times in multiple street cars, I would assume a formula mazda would be even easier to work on. How difficult are gear swaps at the track? Is it a sealed type differential making gear swaps easy?

If you want to sell one or are considering it, drop a picture, price and some information about it.Or if anyone cares to share their story of a first time purchase (how much you got it for, what maintenance was needed, what actually needed work to be race ready) that would be great too.

Also, anybody reading this consistently race FM in the midwest region? Mid Ohio is my home track.

[FrankRizzo]

Here's some info for you:

http://www.mikeism.com/?page_id=367

[daericks]

I have a few questions for you...
1) Are there other FM's that run in your area?
2) Are you wanting to run the SPEC FM or just a FM car in whatever class you would like?
3) What is your experience in open wheel driving? Part 2: How much experience do you have with a dogbox trans?
4) How mechanical are you?

All of these questions (and others I'm sure) will help us better assist you. For example, if you are wanting to run the Spec FM car rules (must run the 470 Goodyear tire, rev limiter, specific Borla exhaust, etc.) you may get some negative feedback from guys like me. The one thing you will find is that everyone that has the car really loves it. It is a dying class as it is but that doesn't take away from the fun you will have in the car. Bang for your buck, you can't really do better in a formula car--and no, a Formula Ford is not a formula car =)

Dan

[marshall9]

--and no, a Formula Ford is not a formula car =)

Dan[/QUOTE]


Then what is it, in your opinion ?

[Slowfrc]

I have a few questions for you...
1) Are there other FM's that run in your area?
2) Are you wanting to run the SPEC FM or just a FM car in whatever class you would like?
3) What is your experience in open wheel driving? Part 2: How much experience do you have with a dogbox trans?
4) How mechanical are you?

All of these questions (and others I'm sure) will help us better assist you. For example, if you are wanting to run the Spec FM car rules (must run the 470 Goodyear tire, rev limiter, specific Borla exhaust, etc.) you may get some negative feedback from guys like me. The one thing you will find is that everyone that has the car really loves it. It is a dying class as it is but that doesn't take away from the fun you will have in the car. Bang for your buck, you can't really do better in a formula car--and no, a Formula Ford is not a formula car =)

Dan

1) I was hoping to find out more about that here. Its kind of difficult to find last years SCCA regional car counts per race. If anyone has a link or any personal records to share that would be awesome.

2) I am wanting to run in the FM class preferebly. I am willing to travel as well. I am also wanting to find a class that has a lot of people closer to my age (23yo), I see on the west coast theres a lot of up and coming racers to race with that were formerly racing karts. I can't find much in the midwest and east coast, except I did see some recent races at Road Atlanta.

3) Zero experience in an open wheel car. My driving experience consists of racing karts from 8-12 years old, 18-23 a lot of autocrossing and hpde track days, and racing my shifter kart from time to time. This year I just plan on getting signed off for time trials with NASA. I will wait to do a competition school with SCCA until I have decided what to race.

4) I am a mechanic by trade. In my short life, I have been a mechanic for 5 years. My past personal feats include basically rebuilding the whole driveline and suspension on my camaro and z06, as well as necessary track prep modifications. The only things I haven't done yet are rebuild a transmission and rebuild the lowers of an engine.

[gcoffin]

I'm not an FM guy but I think the motors are sealed so rebuild are done by Drummond, hewland trans axels are best left to the shops that have the expertise to get them right if they need a rebuild.

The FM s are pretty robust so several seasons should not be any issue. Gears can be changed in about 45 minutes or less. Basically a great way to go racing, my second choice.

I went with FC as the cars are a bit more advanced suspension wise and I really believe they are the fastest cars for the money, if you get a mid to late 90's pinto powered car.

Check out the GLC series

[daericks]

--and no, a Formula Ford is not a formula car =)

Dan

Then what is it, in your opinion ?[/QUOTE]

IMO, a true formula car has wings and ways to produce meaningful downforce. The old FF's have virtually no downforce. The latest model certainly has SOME but it fails in comparison to any of the winged cars. A FF is an OPEN WHEEL car, but by no means a formula car in my book. As a starter car they are very good due to their cost and ease to maintain. Driving a FM is night and day compared to a FF.

[AGMelv]

IMO, a true formula car has wings and ways to produce meaningful downforce. The old FF's have virtually no downforce. The latest model certainly has SOME but it fails in comparison to any of the winged cars. A FF is an OPEN WHEEL car, but by no means a formula car in my book. As a starter car they are very good due to their cost and ease to maintain. Driving a FM is night and day compared to a FF.

Sorry to go off topic here but didn't Formula One set the precedent of what formula racing is? Didn't Formula One run for decades before any sort of downforce and certainly wings were introduced?

[Spengo]

IMO, a true formula car has wings and ways to produce meaningful downforce. The old FF's have virtually no downforce. The latest model certainly has SOME but it fails in comparison to any of the winged cars. A FF is an OPEN WHEEL car, but by no means a formula car in my book. As a starter car they are very good due to their cost and ease to maintain. Driving a FM is night and day compared to a FF.

I always thought "formula" was more about the sort of rules the classes came from back in the early days of motorsport. Building a car specifically for racing from the ground up that fits in a box and within certain other parameters (as in, a formula) rather than re-purposing a street vehicle. These days it's become somewhat muddled since there are a lot of other vehicles like this but remember that originally what we call "stock cars" today would have been an actual factory street car back a long time ago. Many of the words like this have their roots a long time ago. I don't know when it started to specifically mean open wheel but I imagine it was just to differentiate these particular types of cars from other kinds of purpose-built race cars.

Is this not a formula car?

[Slowfrc]

I didn't expect to see FC cars around the same price as FM cars. So how are FC cars in terms of engine competiveness and reliability? Cars counts in FC vs FM? Open wheel/ formula cars appeal to me because every kart racer wants to race an indycar or formula 1 car, and like many others I always thought open wheel cars were way out of my price range. It seems the initial cost of an used FM or FC is in my ballpark.

[Spengo]

1) I was hoping to find out more about that here. Its kind of difficult to find last years SCCA regional car counts per race. If anyone has a link or any personal records to share that would be awesome.

2) I am wanting to run in the FM class preferebly. I am willing to travel as well. I am also wanting to find a class that has a lot of people closer to my age (23yo), I see on the west coast theres a lot of up and coming racers to race with that were formerly racing karts. I can't find much in the midwest and east coast, except I did see some recent races at Road Atlanta.

3) Zero experience in an open wheel car. My driving experience consists of racing karts from 8-12 years old, 18-23 a lot of autocrossing and hpde track days, and racing my shifter kart from time to time. This year I just plan on getting signed off for time trials with NASA. I will wait to do a competition school with SCCA until I have decided what to race.

4) I am a mechanic by trade. In my short life, I have been a mechanic for 5 years. My past personal feats include basically rebuilding the whole driveline and suspension on my camaro and z06, as well as necessary track prep modifications. The only things I haven't done yet are rebuild a transmission and rebuild the lowers of an engine.

I am in a similar place, go kart racer going to buy a car. The question I always focus on is "how many people in the area are there to race against?" In the Northwest, FC seems to be the big one so that's what I plan to drive (even though FM or FE would likely be more appropriate for my level of skill at keeping engines running). I'd rather finish 10th place in a starting grid of 18 than 1st in a grid of 3, still means I beat more people after all. I have no idea what cars are popular around Ohio so I can't help you there but that's where I'd start in choosing what to race. Choosing the popular class has the added benefit of a big helpful community of fellow racers, my experience is that this is more valuable in the long run than anything else when it comes to the cost of racing and your ability to finish the most amount of races.

[provamo]

--and no, a Formula Ford is not a formula car =)

Dan

Then what is it, in your opinion ?[/QUOTE]


formula car is a car built to a formula

there are many formulas

some have wings some do not some are electric some are wankle some are typical ICE

[AGMelv]

I didn't expect to see FC cars around the same price as FM cars. So how are FC cars in terms of engine competiveness and reliability? Cars counts in FC vs FM? Open wheel/ formula cars appeal to me because every kart racer wants to race an indycar or formula 1 car, and like many others I always thought open wheel cars were way out of my price range. It seems the initial cost of an used FM or FC is in my ballpark.

I cannot speak to reliability of all classes but if you'd like to compare class sizes and competitiveness within and across classes, here is a small sample size of the lap times from our Majors at Hallett last month. Times taken from Sunday grids:

FF (x4) 1:19.3 to 1:19.7
FC (x2) 1:13.1 to 1:13.3
FM (x10) 1:14.4 to 1:21.7

Entire weekend of times here: http://www.scca.com/events/1981162-m...racing-circuit

[Slowfrc]

I am in a similar place, go kart racer going to buy a car. The question I always focus on is "how many people in the area are there to race against?" In the Northwest, FC seems to be the big one so that's what I plan to drive (even though FM or FE would likely be more appropriate for my level of skill at keeping engines running). I'd rather finish 10th place in a starting grid of 18 than 1st in a grid of 3, still means I beat more people after all. I have no idea what cars are popular around Ohio so I can't help you there but that's where I'd start in choosing what to race. Choosing the popular class has the added benefit of a big helpful community of fellow racers, my experience is that this is more valuable in the long run than anything else when it comes to the cost of racing and your ability to finish the most amount of races.

Right, that is my next obstacle. The problem is on the SCCA website I can only find cars counts for the whole season and they dont seem to make finding car counts per each event very easy.

[Slowfrc]

I cannot speak to reliability of all classes but if you'd like to compare class sizes and competitiveness within and across classes, here is a small sample size of the lap times from our Majors at Hallett last month. Times taken from Sunday grids:

FF (x4) 1:19.3 to 1:19.7
FC (x2) 1:13.1 to 1:13.3
FM (x10) 1:14.4 to 1:21.7

Entire weekend of times here: http://www.scca.com/events/1981162-m...racing-circuit

Thanks for the link, I am now reviewing car counts.

[Slowfrc]

So zero FM in the recent races in my area, but some FC and FE in there. Another thing I didn't think of is if I crash my street car on the street insurance replaces it. Crash while racing and its on me.
As they say if you can't afford to write a car off in a crash, don't race it. I can afford to lose one, but maybe not buy another after that. Maybe I should just buy a spec miata...

[Spengo]

So zero FM in the recent races in my area, but some FC and FE in there. Another thing I didn't think of is if I crash my street car on the street insurance replaces it. Crash while racing and its on me.
As they say if you can't afford to write a car off in a crash, don't race it. I can afford to lose one, but maybe not buy another after that. Maybe I should just buy a spec miata...

I wouldn't finance a racecar if that's what you're thinking about doing, that would be... very silly. A big wreck that wads up a whole car would take me out for a season or more but it's not the end of the world. I'll probably always be racing go karts too after all. I don't own cars for the street I can't afford to eat the cost of either, not a fan of high insurance premiums when that money could be spent on race fuel and slicks.

Spec miatas aren't really any cheaper to buy or total than an older pinto-powered FC. Running costs are cheaper though, they're a lot more rugged and reliable, there are more places to race them, and you sure as hell won't be lacking for racing competition or community. Definitely a lot of appealing things about them. I raced a loaner last weekend and it was pretty fun, they're a pleasure to drive. I've just got too many stars in my eyes for cars with no roof and big wings that go super fast.

[Slowfrc]

I wouldn't finance a racecar if that's what you're thinking about doing, that would be... very silly. A big wreck that wads up a whole car would take me out for a season or more but it's not the end of the world. I'll probably always be racing go karts too after all. I don't own cars for the street I can't afford to eat the cost of either, not a fan of high insurance premiums when that money could be spent on race fuel and slicks.

Spec miatas aren't really any cheaper to buy or total than an older pinto-powered FC. Running costs are cheaper though, they're a lot more rugged and reliable, there are more places to race them, and you sure as hell won't be lacking for racing competition or community. Definitely a lot of appealing things about them. I raced a loaner last weekend and it was pretty fun, they're a pleasure to drive. I've just got too many stars in my eyes for cars with no roof and big wings that go super fast.

Okay, reading that re assures me a bit. I would be in the same boat, a crash could be a season ender but not the end of the world. I also forgot I can race my kart if the car gets damaged.

Also, after browsing the forums classifieds, Ive come across a huge range on prices for FC. Some people want $35k for a race ready car, others want $20k for one that needs extensive work. Then I see a 91 Citation for $11k which is REALLY in my price range (granted after 5 mins of research is a short track as opposed to wide track). Another (forget the model) was about $16k which is also more in my price range as opposed to $20k. Would rather have funds left over for consumables.

I TOO have a thing for open wheel open cock pit cars with wings, thats what has brought me to write this thread and ask lol.

[gcoffin]

Contact KEA about the GLC it is a pinto only series that the 96 VD was running in. Engine rebuilds depend on the engine. 5k for a complete overhaul good for 50 hours.

[Slowfrc]

So is an FC or a CFC basically an older F2000? What is the actual difference between a FC, CFC, and F2000?

[ccoffin]

So is an FC or a CFC basically an older F2000? What is the actual difference between a FC, CFC, and F2000?

TL;DR: FC and F2000 pretty much the same. CFC is at least pre-1994 cars, otherwise the same.

A bunch of FC's are cars that raced in the F2000 series throughout the years. Current f2000 (pro series) rules allow for a slightly different applications of specific parts (like brakes) than FC does, but most of the f2000 rules trickle to SCCA's definition of FC and vice-versa. So FC and F2000 are pretty much the same, and you shouldn't have to worry about legality of an FC coming from F2000 unless you are planning on spending over 60k for a car (the price range of the car where the guy who owned it is looking to spend money in any way they can in order to run up front) and even then it is probably legal in FC or can be made legal with an afternoon of work. F2000 series cars currently have a spec tire that they run (where as FC has open tire rules within a specific size), so most high end modifications that are legal in F2000 but may not be in FC probably don't help you out anyway in FC.

CFC is Club FC. Rules differ depending on which part of the country you are in as they are determined by the local club, but I believe in your area the rule is all rules are the same as FC, but cars must be built in 1994 or earlier (our rule in the northwest is similar, but cars must be built before 1990)

PS: My advise to pretty much anybody who asks is spend between 12-20k on a well taken care of mid-to-late 90's pinto Van Dieman F2000(FC) that is currently being raced by someone, or has been within the last year, with as fresh an engine as possible. You can find "deals" on either side of this spectrum. but it's hard to miss in this window. As a second option, buy an 8-11k late 80's/early 90's reynard, newer the better with same conditions as the aforementioned VD. I don't know that any body has ever said they regretted the purchase of either of those.

Or buy an FM if the car counts are there, but seems like they are not in your region.

[Slowfrc]

Great, thank you!

[LarryWinkelman]

There will be a decent field of FMs (7 currently registered) at the Mid-Ohio Majors, along with a lot of FCs and a lot of everything else as well. Come to the event, talk to the drivers, and figure out what works for you. Most will be pretty honest about complexity of maintenance, cost, etc.

I raced an FM in the 90s, and although the car has changed some (but not a lot!), it was - at the time - a great bang for the buck. In GLDiv & Northern Conference, counts are way down, most Majors last year were 0 ~ 2, although Mid-Ohio and June Sprints usually draw some. When I got back into racing and weighed FM vs SRF, I chose the SRF for big (sometimes huge) fields and lots of at-track support.

You might also want to check out the GLDiv FC/CFC Challenge (search on ApexSpeed... there's at least one car for rent). They have bigger fields than FM, and I think the purchase cost for an eligible FC (and certainly a CFC) are reasonable.
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...462#post506462

Good luck.

[daericks]

I cannot speak to reliability of all classes but if you'd like to compare class sizes and competitiveness within and across classes, here is a small sample size of the lap times from our Majors at Hallett last month. Times taken from Sunday grids:

FF (x4) 1:19.3 to 1:19.7
FC (x2) 1:13.1 to 1:13.3
FM (x10) 1:14.4 to 1:21.7

Entire weekend of times here: http://www.scca.com/events/1981162-m...racing-circuit

Sorry guys, I was away for a bit so I'm behind on responses here... I know what you guys are going through, we have all done it... First, both the FM and FC classes are seeing less and less numbers at SCCA events. There are many theories for this but one that I think is universally agreed upon is that there are too damn many open wheel classes to choose from. FA, FB, FC, FM, FF, F4, etc. Then you can throw in Pro Mazda, and other semi-pro classes to muddy the water even more.

The FM class will pull from zero to 8 cars and that number is primarily dependent on if Moses Smith and his guys show up to a race. Another option is if Formula Car Challenge (FCC) runs an event with SCCA. A new tire rule (switching from ANY tire to now a Goodyear 470 compound aka: The Widowmaker) makes the car 2-3 seconds slower per lap than the GY 255 or Hoosier. This tire problem was further amplified when GY ceased to have an outlet for their tires on the east coast--which I think is now rectified.

Most first timers ultimately end up with choosing between FC and FM so I'll focus there. I will also state that I am not a self proclaimed expert but will give my $.02 on my personal experiences... One of the biggest differences between FC and FM is the transmission. If you like to shift with an H pattern you want the FM. FC is sequential. One reason the prices differ so much on FC is that there are many options from engine, body work, chassis, etc. and you have really only one option with the FM that I can think of.. Tall man chassis or "regular". The FM class is highly governed when it comes to rules and thus creates a very level playing field. Sealed motor, Hewland gearbox, Spec tire, Spec rims, Spec carb, limited on what you can do with the carb, etc.

I can only speak for myself and my team in this paragraph. Many will have disagreements with me and many of their comments are probably warranted but here goes... There are five of us on our team here in Arizona. We have FM 8 cars on the team. We all started with the FM anywhere from 1 to 4 years ago. We have all had extensive racing experience and range from 40 years old to 74 (yes, 74!). We have all pulled our cars from the Spec FM class and are doing things to make them FS cars. This is a regional only class, not national so we cannot race in Major's events. Why did we do that? Well, the tire rule is #1. To most of us, the tire is complete garbage and unsafe. Many will claim it is fine but no one will argue it is slower under normal conditions. Second reason is that the car is antiquated. Someone above mentioned driving the car 20 years ago and it hasn't changed much and he is correct. In fact, the parts on the car are more expensive, less reliable, less safe, and slower than other off the shelf options that fit. Spec legal mufflers are close to $500 for this car and they last you 3-4 weekends in most cases and those prices seem to go up every year!! Another major problem--and is also a huge asset--is the sealed motor requirement. When buying a car, you should always ask how many hours are on it. Expect 300 hours of lifetime. If you have one that is on its way out, you can expect to pay upwards of $10,000 to get your motor re-sealed from Drummond. He is your only option to be Spec legal. Many FM's currently sit in garages because the motors are low on HP but their owners can't afford to wait 2-4 months and pay $10k to get it back up to snuff. FS allows you to run any motor you want and there are many people that can inspect it and build it for you for $3000 or less. Make no mistake that 5-10 HP is HUGE in our class so if you have a tired motor you won't be competitive. Another problem with the FM is that the body work is extremely dated. There are a few people out there working on solving this problem as well but the new body work will not be FM legal at the national level either.

I can't speak too much on FC as I have never owned one. I can tell you that the FC guys I talked to told me equipment is key. You can spend yourself into a high placing car. An older car will not be competitive no matter who is driving from what I understand. Cost to maintain is also higher because it is NOT a sealed motor and nowhere near as reliable. They are faster than the FM, however.

I also agree with the person that commented that running a race by yourself is no fun so make sure you are aware of what the competition is. Also know the various race organizations out there and what they have. For example, SCCA and ProAutosports in AZ have a class for FM but NASA does not. It is also nice to know that you have some competitors out there that have spare parts if you happen to break something.

I hope this helps some of you. If you have specific questions feel free to message me directly.

Dan

[gcoffin]

FC cars are a standard H pattern 4 speed.

[daericks]

FC cars are a standard H pattern 4 speed.

You might be right on that. I was thinking FE. Oh hell, I completely left that out of my previous post... sorry about the confusion.

[rsaca]

Excuse my ignorance but what are FA, FB and FC's?

Also, coming from a karting background, there is no more amazing feeling than blasting through the first corner after the straight with a Formula Mazda and doing some overtakes. Also, mastering the hewlland dogbox is an achievement in itself!

[Spengo]

FA is Atlantics, the fastest SCCA open wheel class. They are pretty open with what kind of chassis and engine you can run (except no carbon fiber) and most have ended up being aluminum tub with a 4-cylinder engine of some sort from what I've gathered. Lots of power, big fat tires, and big fat wings.

FB is the second fastest SCCA open wheel class, currently it's Formula 1000. Steel spaceframe chassis, engines and transmissions from 1000cc motorcycles, relatively open for aero development, and relatively open for engine choice and development except that it has to be a liter bike engine. The cars are also incredibly lightweight, only 1000lbs, makes a nice round number and the 1000 mean two things at once!

FC is Continentals, basically a Formula Ford with wings and a bigger engine. 2.0L engines that have to be either ford pinto or ford zetec, transmission must be 4-speed h-shifter, chassis must be steel spaceframe, and aero is fairly limited. They are also known as Formula 2000 in the FRP series (not to be confused with USF2000 which is a slightly different thing with mazda mzr engines and sequential gearboxes).

These are all different from Formula Mazda and Formula Enterprise in that they are not spec classes. There are many different chassis makes to choose from and you can even fabricate your own parts if you have the expertise and equipment to do so.

[captdigi]

Funny how much is written about FMs in Arizona with 8- car fields (ehh...). If you was to race a REAL race car, with a REAL racing suspension, check out Formula Ford. In Arizona, we a get car counts in the 12-25 car range on an every event basis. There are various catagories, based on year and configuration, and the competition is great! The new trend using the Toyo tires, makes the racing very affordable, and levels the playing field, allowing older cars to remain competitive against the more modern cars. Then there is the issue of cost. Formula Fords are a great deal less than a FM, and the "spec-tire" is $600.00/ set, and maintain consistant grip from new, through 5-6 race weekends later.
Do your homework and research the car counts, and costs. A Formula Ford is surely no go kart. It is a Formula car in its purest form.
Cheers!

[Joseph Burton-Harris]

I have a full race ready runoff winning car available, almost all Formula Mazda's for sale require work and a lot of money to make them not only race ready but able to win races/the runoffs.. My car that won the runoffs at daytona last year is not only race ready but will give you the best opportunity to win the Indianapolis runoffs in 2017 as Daytona and Indy are very similar

here is the thread http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75515

[bill gillespie]

FA is Atlantics, the fastest SCCA open wheel class. They are pretty open with what kind of chassis and engine you can run (except no carbon fiber) and most have ended up being aluminum tub with a 4-cylinder engine of some sort from what I've gathered. Lots of power, big fat tires, and big fat wings.

FB is the second fastest SCCA open wheel class, currently it's Formula 1000. Steel spaceframe chassis, engines and transmissions from 1000cc motorcycles, relatively open for aero development, and relatively open for engine choice and development except that it has to be a liter bike engine. The cars are also incredibly lightweight, only 1000lbs, makes a nice round number and the 1000 mean two things at once!

FC is Continentals, basically a Formula Ford with wings and a bigger engine. 2.0L engines that have to be either ford pinto or ford zetec, transmission must be 4-speed h-shifter, chassis must be steel spaceframe, and aero is fairly limited. They are also known as Formula 2000 in the FRP series (not to be confused with USF2000 which is a slightly different thing with mazda mzr engines and sequential gearboxes).

These are all different from Formula Mazda and Formula Enterprise in that they are not spec classes. There are many different chassis makes to choose from and you can even fabricate your own parts if you have the expertise and equipment to do so.

Correction : FA is Almost entirely carbon tub now...

[Cruzebabuze]

Excuse my ignorance but what are FA, FB and FC's?

Also, coming from a karting background, there is no more amazing feeling than blasting through the first corner after the straight with a Formula Mazda and doing some overtakes. Also, mastering the hewlland dogbox is an achievement in itself!

For me when I did fm, the hill and toe from 4th to 1st was always my fav moment