Cost of Majors

[Brian C in Az]

We usually have 20 plus cars (Formula Fords) each race in the Phoenix area. The last race was held at Chuckwalla and only 14 showed up. Chuckwalla was only a 3 hour drive; 200 miles away from Phoenix. Everyone that normally raced but didn't that weekend mentioned the extra hotel cost, long drive, and needing to take off from work as the primary reasons for not going. This shows how missing a day from work, adding a few hours driving, and adding the cost of an extra night in a hotel do in fact affect entries.

If a relatively short tow and a single extra day off work combined with the cost of an extra night at a hotel shrunk our group by 33%, doesn't it make sense that the higher costs and extra days of the Majors does negatively affect the number of entries?

It is very obvious looking at it from an objective viewpoint.

This debate about the cost affecting entries is very similar to the debate that we had about racing a spec tire (the Toyo RA888) vs the open tire rules and how the cost affects entries.

[Jnovak]

The issue there is that the guys who bought into FE and FM did so because they didn't want to have to change the cars every time a new widget comes out in order to be competitive. Spec classes are intentionally managed differently from open-rule classes. If they can't live on their own, fine - but once you try to mix spec cars, their basic reason for existence has been destroyed. I'd also suggest that there is no way to ever make FE or FM equivalent to FC track-to-track unless you open up spring, wing and gearing options - and that's a big can of worms. In the end, mashing those cars together wouldn't change the number of run groups (nor would FF/F500/F600), so I don't think it helps solve the scheduling and track time issues.

Imagine, for example, that you let an open-rules car in to combine with SRF in a single class - would that be OK?

The question I would ask regarding spec cars is this: If the two largest classes are a spec sedan (Miata) and a spec sports racer (SRF), why have neither FE nor FM achieved the numbers they should? The cost/performance is definitely there in comparison to open classes, but they just can't seem to get enough traction to generate numbers like FF or FC.....? What have we missed?

Marshall, I was not suggesting that FE and FM remain spec classes. I am suggesting that they have some limited changes that allow them to be competitive with FC and it would not take much as the best FE car are about 1 second from the best FC cars when the FE is in spec trim.
For example:
Allow any springs - very minimal cost
Allow for any wing adjustment or removal of elements - no cost
Allow for alternative wing flaps or wickers - very minimal to no cost
Allow for the Penske shocks to be modified to double adjustables, this can be done for a modest cost. About $1000 for conversion of all 4 shocks.
You spend way more than the total above for tires and you do not need to do it at one time.

Now the above are just my thoughts based on racing FE for a couple of seasons. I am sure that the current crop of FE racers have even better ideas.

You are right about people joining spec classes so they do not have to make changes. The problems is that there are a dozen spec open wheel classes and the 2 in club racing are quickly dying. Without a place to race your really nice spec race car is nothing but a pile of parts. That time is getting closer, look at where FE is in open wheel entries, LAST PLACE. And FM is ia very close 2ND LAST PLACE. These are simply facts and cannot be disputed.

I suggest that you come up with an idea that will help FE grow as a spec class. I bet that if FE was opened up the entries would double because most racers want to learn how to tune their cars. I also bet that the racing at the front will be MUCH MUCH CLOSER with some allowed adjustments and minor changes.

[JohnPaul]

Marshall, I was not suggesting that FE and FM remain spec classes. I am suggesting that they have some limited changes that allow them to be competitive with FC and it would not take much as the best FE car are about 1 second from the best FC cars when the FE is in spec trim.
For example:
Allow any springs - very minimal cost
Allow for any wing adjustment or removal of elements - no cost
Allow for alternative wing flaps or wickers - very minimal to no cost
Allow for the Penske shocks to be modified to double adjustables, this can be done for a modest cost. About $1000 for conversion of all 4 shocks.
You spend way more than the total above for tires and you do not need to do it at one time.

Now the above are just my thoughts based on racing FE for a couple of seasons. I am sure that the current crop of FE racers have even better ideas.

You are right about people joining spec classes so they do not have to make changes. The problems is that there are a dozen spec open wheel classes and the 2 in club racing are quickly dying. Without a place to race your really nice spec race car is nothing but a pile of parts. That time is getting closer, look at where FE is in open wheel entries, LAST PLACE. And FM is ia very close 2ND LAST PLACE. These are simply facts and cannot be disputed.

I suggest that you come up with an idea that will help FE grow as a spec class. I bet that if FE was opened up the entries would double because most racers want to learn how to tune their cars. I also bet that the racing at the front will be MUCH MUCH CLOSER with some allowed adjustments and minor changes.

How about a difusser. Gyrodynamics (Mike B) makes a great one for that car for $600

[Jnovak]

How about a difusser. Gyrodynamics (Mike B) makes a great one for that car for $600

Thanks JP. Great thought.

[dick patullo]

Here's a "modest proposal" for divisionals that would allow a LOT more track time:

6 run groups:

Open large (wings)
Open small (wingless)
Prototype Large
Prototype Small (including SRF)
Sedan Large
Sedan Small (including Spec Miata)

This would level-load the track time and reduce the total number of sessions per segment - thus you can have either more sessions or run them longer. Yes, we would all have to drive clean and learn to play nice.

So based on the participation for the first 6 Majors this year that would give us race groups averaging:
FV/FF/F5 19 cars, Fast formula 15 cars, P1/2 8 cars, SRF/SRF3 32 cars and 2 sedan groups with 55 cars in each.
Without SRF the open wheel and prototypes made up 23% or the entries. Hard to see where spreading those cars over half the race groups will work out.

[Marshall Mauney]

So based on the participation for the first 6 Majors this year that would give us race groups averaging:
FV/FF/F5 19 cars, Fast formula 15 cars, P1/2 8 cars, SRF/SRF3 32 cars and 2 sedan groups with 55 cars in each.
Without SRF the open wheel and prototypes made up 23% or the entries. Hard to see where spreading those cars over half the race groups will work out.

Those first 6 don't include CenDiv, where we have more open-wheel teams. The first Majors event is the first weekend of May, so we're just now getting a look at their numbers. Current entries for the Blackhawk Major show the largest class as SRF (15), followed by Spec Miata (11) and FE (7 - tied with STL and FProd). The single largest run group is big open wheel (16), followed by SRF (15). I know we'll get a couple more formula car entries, and assume that will be in proportion across the other groups, as well.

Now lets look at the undersubscribed classes:

GTL - 1 car
T1 - 1 car
T3 - 1 car
H Prod - 1 car
GT3 - 2 cars
T2 - 2 cars
T4 - 2 cars

Now granted it's still 2 weeks away from the race, but this would seem to indicate that the class proliferation problem isn't the formula cars - at least not in CenDiv. Heck, we've got more FEs than all of the Touring classes combined.

[Daryl DeArman]

I have no problem with a merge of f500/600 with FF. I cannot image that the FF guys would go for that and I do not blame them. There is one issue here and that is that if you combined FF with F500/600 you would be combining the 4th most popular class with the 9th most popular class probably creating the 3rd most popular class. The biggest issue is that you would have $80k car getting beat by $25k cars, (sometimes).

....and then combine a couple of others to make the 5th most popular class, and the 6th, and so on. Until you have maybe a dozen healthy classes.

As to the 80K v. 25K car scenario, the more often that happens the more the value of those cars heads toward the median. Not good for the guy with the "80K car" and not good for the guy that wanted in the class, competitively for 25K.

[Marshall Mauney]

Marshall, I was not suggesting that FE and FM remain spec classes.

Well, there's the rub.

[quote] I am suggesting that they have some limited changes [...]
For example:
Allow any springs - very minimal cost
Allow for any wing adjustment or removal of elements - no cost
Allow for alternative wing flaps or wickers - very minimal to no cost
Allow for the Penske shocks to be modified to double adjustables, this can be done for a modest cost. About $1000 for conversion of all 4 shocks.

Springs - yeah. I'd vote for a different set than we have today, but I'd still support a single spec set.
Wings - we could allow that and stay spec, and we already have wickers as an option.
Shocks - sign me up today.

None of those have to change the "spec" nature of the class, and would definitely improve the handling.

You spend way more than the total above for tires and you do not need to do it at one time.

Agreed, and I don't know why those items haven't already been addressed.

Now the above are just my thoughts based on racing FE for a couple of seasons. I am sure that the current crop of FE racers have even better ideas.

Here's one - closed-loop engine control. It's not overly cheap, but it would remove the fiddling with fuel pressure.

Flat-shift capability with paddles would also increase the attraction for new entries - but that's probably not inexpensive with the current gearbox.

You are right about people joining spec classes so they do not have to make changes. The problems is that there are a dozen spec open wheel classes and the 2 in club racing are quickly dying.

So why is that? In all seriousness, our two largest classes are SM and SRF - clearly the "spec"
drivers are a big portion of the total audience. What are we doing wrong? It ain't cost - neither FE nor FM out-price FC. Heck, I think they're cheaper to run than a top-tier FF...

I suggest that you come up with an idea that will help FE grow as a spec class. [...] I also bet that the racing at the front will be MUCH MUCH CLOSER with some allowed adjustments and minor changes.

Well, I think you just answered your own question.

[Jnovak]

....and then combine a couple of others to make the 5th most popular class, and the 6th, and so on. Until you have maybe a dozen healthy classes.

As to the 80K v. 25K car scenario, the more often that happens the more the value of those cars heads toward the median. Not good for the guy with the "80K car" and not good for the guy that wanted in the class, competitively for 25K.

I do not want to merge FF with F500. The question was asked so I answered, I am not bothered by it. I would prefer that f500/600 grow and that may happen because you can't go faster for less $$$. You never know what might be happening.

Some classes simply are not mergible. I doubt you could merge FF and FC.

[Jnovak]

You are part of FE Marshall. Make those changes happen. Then you would be turning the same lap times as FC and wouldn't it be more fun to race with 20 cars as opposed to the 5-8 FE has now in the Northern Conference?

[dick patullo]

Those first 6 don't include CenDiv, where we have more open-wheel teams. The first Majors event is the first weekend of May, so we're just now getting a look at their numbers. Current entries for the Blackhawk Major show the largest class as SRF (15), followed by Spec Miata (11) and FE (7 - tied with STL and FProd). The single largest run group is big open wheel (16), followed by SRF (15). I know we'll get a couple more formula car entries, and assume that will be in proportion across the other groups, as well.

Now lets look at the undersubscribed classes:

GTL - 1 car
T1 - 1 car
T3 - 1 car
H Prod - 1 car
GT3 - 2 cars
T2 - 2 cars
T4 - 2 cars

Now granted it's still 2 weeks away from the race, but this would seem to indicate that the class proliferation problem isn't the formula cars - at least not in CenDiv. Heck, we've got more FEs than all of the Touring classes combined.

That is fair, i grabbed the first data i thought of. why don't you look at the participation data for 2014.

also beware that the class discussion and the run group discussion are subtly different,

[Marshall Mauney]

That is fair, i grabbed the first data i thought of. why don't you look at the participation data for 2014.

I would suggest that the 2014 data by itself isn't something we should make decisions on. A lot of the Majors participation decisions are made based on whether or not someone was going to the Runoffs. Since the Runoffs was held on the West Coast for the first time most of us can remember and thus cost a lot more than usual for a lot of our teams, many people from the East simply stayed home to save resources for next year. I was one, and I know there are others. Better to look at 2- or 3-year trends.

also beware that the class discussion and the run group discussion are subtly different,

Agreed.

[JohnPaul]

It would a fun project to tune an FE and see how it compares to an FC.

[Jnovak]

It would a fun project to tune an FE and see how it compares to an FC.

A great idea JP. i think it would be easy.

[Marshall Mauney]

A great idea JP. i think it would be easy.

It's already been fooled with, as I understand it. The FE can absolutely be as fast as FC, and faster at most tracks - the 2.3 is a potentially very strong mill, so it can overcome the aero deficit.

There are a number of reasons why we might want to open up the FE a bit, but I don't think anyone in the class sees it as an attempt to turn it into another FC option, but rather a way to make it more attractive as a spec option - more speed for the $$$.

IMO, we need a spec open-wheel car. One. Not two or three, but one. Why? because car counts in SM and SRF show that spec cars can pull in a large field. I think, though, that having both FE and FM works against us, both by diluting the field and by leaving potential new entrants with the impression that we don't have a clear strategy.

I also think, though, that speeding FE up might be going the wrong direction for a spec car. I notice that both SRF and Spec Miata are relatively slow among other sedans and sports racers. Is this perhaps because the guys who really are capable of driving the fastest cars want tuning options to tweak to the limit, while the guys looking for large-field competition just want to get out there and drive without worrying as much about the details of the car? How many guys doing an arrive-and-drive want to spend their time figuring out which spring set or gearing gets the last 0.1s vs. just wanting to get in and drive in a pack of other cars?

[Daryl DeArman]

I notice that both SRF and Spec Miata are relatively slow among other sedans and sports racers. Is this perhaps because the guys who really are capable of driving the fastest cars want tuning options to tweak to the limit, while the guys looking for large-field competition just want to get out there and drive without worrying as much about the details of the car?

I certainly don't think so. The folks who choose SRF or SM are doing so for the competition vs. cost instead of the speed vs. cost. It has nothing to do with their abilities.

Those guys in those "spec" classes are spending a lot of time and money looking for that last little incremental tenth as well.

[dsmithwc04]

I certainly don't think so. The folks who choose SRF or SM are doing so for the competition vs. cost instead of the speed vs. cost. It has nothing to do with their abilities.

Those guys in those "spec" classes are spending a lot of time and money looking for that last little incremental tenth as well.

Yes, such as spending $6000 for a stock 1.8L motor.... with 140bhp. This is why I got out of SM and into FE. I should be able to drive this year in FE for about the exact same money as SM. SM has more competition but it is also hard to call it a "spec" class. Look at what the top 5 guys are doing to those cars and tell me they are "spec". Personally, I'm not going to fork over $30k + for a damn 15 year old miata. I paid way less than that for an open wheel car that has the same capabilities as the top guys in its class. Hard to beat IMO.

I would be all for a little modification to the aero (wings, diffuser, etc) and more adjustability on the shocks just to help learn to do a set up better.

[JohnPaul]

The single most important thing to consider when putting a group together is lap times. Every serious crash I've had was coming up on lap traffic going 10+ seconds per lap slower. That is just crazy. Coming into a turn you just can't judge the close in difference. Even after over slowing the car to begin with. It's scary as sh*t and super dangerous. At Nola last month I came up lap traffic, 3 cars zig zagging and sure enough I end up 4 wheels through the air. Thank god chief steward was at that turn and told me see saw the whole thing and it wasn't my fault. Honestly I didn't think it was anyone fault, it's just a dangerous pairing of classes.
I also think they need to enforce the 110% qualifying rule. Its the majors. Regional are there to get people up to speed.

[budawe]

Another short fall for using just laps times for grouping and class consolidation is that different cars get their times differently. A FF turning FV times can be a real challenge. FFst and FV, while sometimes close, get their time differently as well.

[Jnovak]

It's already been fooled with, as I understand it. The FE can absolutely be as fast as FC, and faster at most tracks - the 2.3 is a potentially very strong mill, so it can overcome the aero deficit.

There are a number of reasons why we might want to open up the FE a bit, but I don't think anyone in the class sees it as an attempt to turn it into another FC option, but rather a way to make it more attractive as a spec option - more speed for the $$$.

IMO, we need a spec open-wheel car. One. Not two or three, but one. Why? because car counts in SM and SRF show that spec cars can pull in a large field. I think, though, that having both FE and FM works against us, both by diluting the field and by leaving potential new entrants with the impression that we don't have a clear strategy.

I also think, though, that speeding FE up might be going the wrong direction for a spec car. I notice that both SRF and Spec Miata are relatively slow among other sedans and sports racers. Is this perhaps because the guys who really are capable of driving the fastest cars want tuning options to tweak to the limit, while the guys looking for large-field competition just want to get out there and drive without worrying as much about the details of the car? How many guys doing an arrive-and-drive want to spend their time figuring out which spring set or gearing gets the last 0.1s vs. just wanting to get in and drive in a pack of other cars?

Sorry Marshall, but where are your large FE fields?

Ps no changes needed to the motor to run with the FC cars.

[Marshall Mauney]

Sorry Marshall, but where are your large FE fields?

That's the point- why isn't spec open wheel doing as well as the other two spec categories? FM has dwindled, as well.

Ps no changes needed to the motor to run with the FC cars.

Agreed. I didn't say that very well - what I meant was that the 2.3 has enough power and torque that the car doesn't need to full aero capability of a top FC to be competitive. Anyone who has set up a FE knows the setup trade-offs that we have to make to overcome some inherent problems - and I fully agree that it can be fixed at a low cost.

[cooleyjb]

I also think they need to enforce the 110% qualifying rule. Its the majors. Regional are there to get people up to speed.

They usually do. 110% is a LONG ways back. I can't think of a class I've been in where everyone wasn't within the 110%

[cooleyjb]

Another short fall for using just laps times for grouping and class consolidation is that different cars get their times differently. A FF turning FV times can be a real challenge. FFst and FV, while sometimes close, get their time differently as well.

That's ideally what every single professional organization wants though. A bunch of different cars that do it differently so there is actually racing. You do it the same everywhere and you get a parade.

[Keith Carter]

Yeah, I'm not sure that the speed increase in FE would be detrimental to participation. It could be something that the "spec guys" aspire to if anything. If there is class consolidation to "match" the FE to other cars, I can guarantee that it will depreciate the FE and flood the market with them. People didn't buy the car for any other reason than it's a spec car and taking that away will cause that part of the open wheel class to collapse. Consolidation won't be a fix except for driving racers out of the class altogether and reduce car count. I can show video footage of my car running down an FC at Road America only to pop out to pass and slam into an aero disadvantage only to have to pull back in behind the slower car. Any other track, the "matched" FE would kill that car if it's equalizing factor is HP and is given more than is currently allowed, but on an aero track like Road America, where FCs run the low slung rear wing and streamline aero package, there's no chance. Just ask any of the guys who ran FE in the pro F2000 series and see how excited they would be about "matching" cars. The SCCA Ent. guys know what needs to be done to grow the FE class to make it popular, but they've got their hands tied with the new gen SRF upgrade in full swing. The silly season is almost over guys, only a few more weeks to go before this can go away until next November.

[Keith Carter]

That's ideally what every single professional organization wants though. A bunch of different cars that do it differently so there is actually racing. You do it the same everywhere and you get a parade.

That would be true if Bernie was running the SCCA and concerned about making a show for the fans.

[JohnPaul]

They usually do. 110% is a LONG ways back. I can't think of a class I've been in where everyone wasn't within the 110%

I'm talking about group not class. What's the use of class when it's the whole group you run with?

[cooleyjb]

I'm talking about group not class. What's the use of class when it's the whole group you run with?

That's not a rule in SCCA though.

[cooleyjb]

That would be true if Bernie was running the SCCA and concerned about making a show for the fans.

The most popular group in SCCA outside of spec is partly based on the idea of same lap times accomplished differently. IT has been pretty popular using that idea.

[JohnPaul]

That's not a rule in SCCA though.

Lol oh yeah.... well it should be. Seriously

[budawe]

Did a survey with SM drivers over a few months and asked them why they didn't chose an open wheel class. Maybe one that was cost effective like FV. Virtually all the drivers said they thought open wheel is too dangerous. Some said closed fendered cars was the only way they could get their wives to agree. They also said they would prefer not to work on the car alot. SM & SRF are true arrive and drive cars and many are prepped by shops for drivers who don't want to spend a lot of time doing anything except driving on track.

[dsmithwc04]

That would be true if Bernie was running the SCCA and concerned about making a show for the fans.

Bernie gets blame for anything wrong no matter his fault or not. I've seen a few people say how bad Bernie is for some of the things that are wrong with F1 but the fact is he is against a some of them too. It appears he is given a little too much credit in his power over rules and the overall direction of F1...

Everytime I hear "This is Bernies fault that...." I think of the crazy number of times I hear "Obama is ruining this country because..." and then they point to a policy that has been in place since Reagan. LoL (I don't care for Obama BTW just making a point)

Now what were we talking about again? Oh yeah, cost of majors.....

[dsmithwc04]

Did a survey with SM drivers over a few months and asked them why they didn't chose an open wheel class. Maybe one that was cost effective like FV. Virtually all the drivers said they thought open wheel is too dangerous. Some said closed fendered cars was the only way they could get their wives to agree. They also said they would prefer not to work on the car alot. SM & SRF are true arrive and drive cars and many are prepped by shops for drivers who don't want to spend a lot of time doing anything except driving on track.

Interesting that none of them mentioned the fact there are more competitors in SM in which to race with on any given track.

I had an SM and now have an FE. I don't think I work on the FE any more than the SM to be honest. Of course, I haven't yet put the FE on the track but I did go over the whole car throughout the winter and find it actually easier to work on than the SM because of how accessible everything is. Add in the fact that FE is about as SPEC as you can actually get and couple that with the fact Spec Miata is not as "spec" as it first appears and you now know why I switched over when the opportunity came around. Plus the FE looks so much cooler...

Speaking of open wheel being more "dangerous" I must admit, the wife was a little hesitant on me getting into open wheel racing. She probably remembers how bummed I was when Dan Whelden died and that it happened in an open wheel racecar. Never mind the fact he was in an Indy car going nearly 200 mph on an oval where I don't believe open wheel cars belong but that's a whole other rant in itself. Personally, I say let Nascar be king of left turns and keep open wheel on the road courses....

[butch deer]

I"ve been an open wheel guy for over 50 years. I have spent very minimal time on body and paint work. Practically every I know with a spec Miata has had lots of body and paint work. Most of them can't do it themselves either.

[dsmithwc04]

I"ve been an open wheel guy for over 50 years. I have spent very minimal time on body and paint work. Practically every I know with a spec Miata has had lots of body and paint work. Most of them can't do it themselves either.

The SM guys follow the old saying: "Rubbin' is Racing!". Try that in an open wheel and your likely to turn into an airplane..... temporarily of course.

[cooleyjb]

Go look at the nose cones of the front of the f1600 pack and tell me they aren't rubbing.....

[Brian C in Az]

Go look at the nose cones of the front of the f1600 pack and tell me they aren't rubbing.....

Not rubbing, drafting.

[Modo]

I think the three day weekend can eliminate many younger as well as others, due to the necessity of taking a day off ........ (the flip side is, it is nice, to try and make it a bigger type of event) ........don't know how i did it back in the seventies, but many were midnight excursions to the northeast from the DC-Balt area Friday evening, in a couple cases after the 11:30 news plus time back to the house ...... a rotating schedlue at a CBS affiliate in Baltimore made it difficult, glad I wasn't in B-More yesterday, LOL ..... am down the drink near DC

[budawe]

The way 3 day events are scheduled allows folks to drop Friday if they wish. Generally, there's a practice and one qualifier. On Sat. there is another qualifier and a sprint race which also acts as a qualifier for the Sunday race.

Back in the 70's we didn't have double weekends and that allowed time for practice and qualifying on sat then another quali on sunday morning with the race in the afternoon.

Three days and doubles didn't come until AZ region did the January double at PIR in the late 90's. Now almost every event is a double with less track time and fewer days.

[Modo]

Thanks Bud, ...... it's funny but what kind-a gets me in a knot (actually more power to-em'), is that many people are doing the friday track rentals (the way to go of course but a lot of tire n engine), then the first session out, at even a regional, first 15 minute practice which is for "remember what it's like in the cockpit", session, they are tearing up the place when half the field is in hobby-getting up to speed mode, ready to put in a time at the end-o-session, or the afternoon session.......... ok with it of course, jes more bucks if u do it, or some would say in certain classes, u have to do it .... how many years have days off gone to additional day or two for the weekend racing and not for vacation ......... a lot!!!

[Steve Demeter]

Budawe,

I am not sure which Majors you are going to but in GLDIV the only qually is 2 sessions on Friday.

Race on Saturday and race on Sunday.