Merge of F600 and F500

[SEComposites]

When is the decision likely to be made public? Sooner the better!

[lancer360]

We have been told that the vote will be at the October BOD meeting.

[allof6]

http://f500.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1392&start=50

[SEComposites]

Wow, what a poisonous little forum that is! I've not heard of it before. You'd expect that kind of invective over a more emotive issue, but in club racing! I really hope non of them read this or I might get burned at the stake.

[Bill Bonow]

I really hope non of them read this or I might get burned at the stake.

Ed,

I think you're OK. Most of them are already banned from Apexspeed

[jim murphy]

And several other forums. They had to create their own forum in order to spew their poison and stay on the internet.

Jim
They hate me because I asked them to stop, they just got worse and they got booted.

[F500]

I don't see the silencing of opposition as a good thing.

Unless your historical idols have names like Vladimir, Joseph, and Adolf.

[Daryl DeArman]

I don't see the silencing of opposition as a good thing.

Unless your historical idols have names like Vladimir, Joseph, and Adolf.

I can point you to several hundred post threads on here where there is plenty of opposing views. Having an opposing viewpoint wont get you silenced from this forum, acting like a jackass apparently will.

[jim murphy]

On every internet forum that I have ever visited (except theirs) opposing views are most welcome as long as you do NOT personally attack anyone by calling them bad names, etc. We pointed this out to them but their responses kept on calling us bad names so they violated the forum rules and got booted by the adminstrators. I think that this is no way an oppressive thing to do. BTW, implying someone is a hated dictator is coming close to the edge (but did not cross over the line) so please stick to the subject not anything else.

Jim
Note: Capitalization is for emphasis not emotion.

[F500]

I've read all the history. Perhaps you could point out where I might find these personal attacks you rerfer to prior to the bans? I haven't been able to find anything I would call a personal attack prior to that point.

And after that point the biggest attacker would seem to be the one that I believ e is the driver of your car. Which would seem to be the pot calling the kettle black as it were.

In fact, I find there is far more useful information on that website in its short existence than any others I've been able to find. Especially on the rotax engines and the cvt technical side of things.

There has also been a marked increase in the number of f500 cars here at some of the races in NH over the last couple years. It was nice to see more than just one, if any at all as was the case previously.

Back at the spring race up here I personally saw one of the jackasses referred to tow his equipment and spares to a race he wasn't even entered in just to support the three f500s that were entered.

[SEComposites]

Please can we keep this thread on topic, and not get into tit for tat point scoring.

[jim murphy]

All of the offending posts were deleted by the adminstrators so you will never see one. Please don't start up a hate campaign - we are here to exchange helpful ideas.

Jim

[Brian.Novak]

I don't see the silencing of opposition as a good thing.

Unless your historical idols have names like Vladimir, Joseph, and Adolf.

Godwin in one post. Huzzah!

[Daryl DeArman]

Godwin in one post. Huzzah!

HaHa! Made me use Google, couldn't figure out how Duck Dynasty fit in this topic.

[lancer360]

HaHa! Made me use Google, couldn't figure out how Duck Dynasty fit in this topic.

LOL! I had to google it too.

[F500]

All of the offending posts were deleted by the adminstrators so you will never see one.

Question: If I point out the fact that this post is a lie, will I get banned too?

[lancer360]

I searched for the offending thread on Apexspeed and I couldn't find it.

[aims20]

Maybe I'm just an unrealistic optimist, But I'd like to believe F500 and F600 can play nice together.

Now I don't know quite all the details of the throwing everyone's toys out of the playpen saga, but I will say this:

I'm trying to get on track next year in F5/F6/F_cheap__open_wheel_race_car.
I'm straight out of college with my generation's typical student loan status. I DID do my homework and an unhealthy dose of FSAE to get a pretty decent job. I work a lot of overtime to support it. Needless to say I have a little work ethic, and the one thing that I'm willing to pay even more money for than racing is not putting up with all the senseless bickering. Too bad my tax dollars weren't enough for that either.

Please, take it to PM's, phone calls, whatever.

I Do NOT care who said what about who in the past. I don't care who is at more fault than the other. I don't care who was the bigger baby, and I don't care who started it.

Grow Up.

Believe it or not, your behavior in a public online forum IS advertising for the class, and it's not easy to attract my friends to this class if this is what they are going to see.

[SEComposites]

I could not agree more. Some people on both sides of the argument don't realize how damaging it is to the class, especially to potential newcomers.

We are looking at building a dedicated F600 car if the decision is made to allow 600's in. Fingers crossed!

[Jnovak]

Question: If I point out the fact that this post is a lie, will I get banned too?

Chris, everyone has a right to an opinion, you included. However your best bet is to send a letter to the CRB stating your opinion. This will produce better results than trying to start an argument on this forum.

Go here: www.crbscca.com

[F500]

Jay, granted everyone has a right to an opinion. But things that are demonstrably false are not opinions.

I've been folowing F500 for a while as a place for when my daughter is out of karts. But if it ends up merged with F600, I'll probably start looking elsewhere as the cost factor will likely go up. Also, since I'm not an SCCA member yet I don't think it's my place to write any official letters to the CRB at this time.

It looks like a nice F600 you are designing though.

I searched for the offending thread on Apexspeed and I couldn't find it.

There were exactly two. And no posts were ever deleted from them.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45583

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45518

So much for Godwin's rule appying.

[Mike Devins]

I'll probably start looking elsewhere as the cost factor will likely go up.

I would think that the f6 package will be restricted below parody for some time but will still have appeal to those that like these motors. The 500 package should not cost any more that it does now. We will see.

[Jnovak]

Jay, granted everyone has a right to an opinion. But things that are demonstrably false are not opinions.

I've been folowing F500 for a while as a place for when my daughter is out of karts. But if it ends up merged with F600, I'll probably start looking elsewhere as the cost factor will likely go up. Also, since I'm not an SCCA member yet I don't think it's my place to write any official letters to the CRB at this time.

It looks like a nice F600 you are designing though.

Thanks Chris. Our new car is available with a Rotax too.
I am personally one of F500s biggest fans. I was there nearly at the beginning in 1984 and have been very involved ever since. My reason for promoting the MC engines is to make certain that the class survives in a form that will maintain F500s low cost and bring more people to the class.

Last season there were 47 different drivers entered in F500 Nationals and Majors. That means a total of 47 different drivers in the entire USA that entered Nationals and or Majors. It is my opinion that F500 is not very healthy, but I do give the F500 racers a TON OF CREDIT for what they continue to accomplish. I simply think that the class needs some new drivers coming into the class and I hope that the MC engine merger with F500 will do just that.

F500 is a great class and I want it to be here in 10 years.

I am very proud of our involvement in F500 since 1984. we have built over 20 cars for the class and 9 F600s. Our 2 biggest accomplishements were when we personally arranged for the Rotax engine to be made available to the class when the AMW engine deal went south. I personally spoke to the President of Bombardier and convinced him that Rotax should supply engines to F500.
The biggest deal for me personally was when my son won the Runoffs in 2007 with a car we designed, built and developed along with Don Hamilton and his Dad Dennis.

Keep racing your F500 and get your daughter involved when she is ready. The combined class will be waiting for her in your 2 stroke powered F500. 2 strokes and 4 strokes can co-exist in the same class.

[dc]

I don't see the silencing of opposition as a good thing.

Unless your historical idols have names like Vladimir, Joseph, and Adolf.

Wow, one post and you are taking shots at how I choose to run my forum. Welcome, and thanks for joining. I see you haven't figured out out my personal tongue-in-cheek User Description yet, so I'll help you out a little. I take great pride in how this community is maintained, since day-1, and refuse to let people looking only to cause trouble track mud through our living room. I have little or no patience for adults behaving like children, and I don't ask anyone to leave—they just mysteriously never come back.

I've read all the history. Perhaps you could point out where I might find these personal attacks you rerfer to prior to the bans? I haven't been able to find anything I would call a personal attack prior to that point.

The muddy foot prints were a mess. It took a while, but they have all been summarily removed from the public view. I have this OCD thing about keeping a clean house. ApexSpeed wasn't the only place to escort that very small group of individuals from the premises, either. If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck...

Question: If I point out the fact that this post is a lie, will I get banned too?

You (as well as everyone else here) agreed to follow some very simple forum rules here when you registered for ApexSpeed. We take that agreement very seriously. However, we are not in the habit of removing opinions or stifling the expression of ideas in our community. That's not why we built ApexSpeed over 14 years ago. We have absolutely no problem with you expressing differing opinions (I have many that most people here wouldn't agree with)—but this isn't recess, and you have to be an adult about it. Your first post comparing me to Hitler was extraordinarily rude and close to the edge. No, I don't have any tolerance for name-calling. Save the name-calling and personal attacks for elsewhere.

We take great pride in the very minuscule number of people banned here on ApexSpeed since 1999. The very few people who couldn't play nice, were escorted and not allowed back. Far less banned users here than most other forums anywhere on the internet.



There is a lot of familiarity in your tone, and anyone that heads over to the other F500 forum will see a lot more of the same. I would prefer to not exclude you from this discussion, so please do consider this your first and only warning to play nice.





dc

[steffen707]

I could not agree more. Some people on both sides of the argument don't realize how damaging it is to the class, especially to potential newcomers.

We are looking at building a dedicated F600 car if the decision is made to allow 600's in. Fingers crossed!

I am a potential newcomer. Can you explain why this merger wouldn't be in my interest?

I'm a long time F1 fan (I've Been to Monza, Canadian GP and the COTA race last year). I know "the sound" doesn't matter, and I have no problems with 2 strokes buzzing or their smell, but to have a 6 speed sequential gearbox (like the pros) and that high revving F1 like sound would be fantastic.

I had a friend that raced F500 for years, and his stories got me interested in the series. F600 sounds like the progression to me. If I were to go out and start racing and had the choice between F500 and F600, I would choose F600, because the next step would probably be F1000, and so on. If you choose F500 and want to progress, is there a 1000cc snowmobile class out there?

I will say I do not have any SCCA road racing experience and my comments can be taken with a grain of salt, but..... as a newcomer F600 sounds like an awesome place to start.

[dc]

For the record, the username "F500" was discovered to be Wayne Dixon, again. He just can't keep from calling people names and picking fights with everyone who will engage him. It was a nice touch to call me names, too, as a fictitious puppet account, then run away to never respond. He can go back to his cesspool website of poison and vitriol and call me more names from far away, because that's what people like him and Foamy (George Muggee) do.

[F five hunj]

[jim murphy]

Hooray for the club. The devil will be in the details, however.

Jim

[Stan Clayton]

This is terrific news IMO, so congrats to the Board and the F500/600 community for their decision. I really, REALLY hope this can stimulate some growth for what should be a much more popular class.

[f500racer]

Old timer here.

I think this was the right call. I saw a number of the 600's at Mid Ohio lat week and they all looked well prepared and sounded great. I had the chance to talk to a number of them, many were old friends and the enthusiasm for the class has only increased. It will all work out in the end and I think the competition will only increase to the levels seen in the early 2000's when we had 15-20 guys going for ten spots to gets to the runoffs. It made me a better driver and was ton of fun.

The great things is that is told most people that I would be back in a two stoke car as that is what I know and all were for it. We'll see you at Mid Ohio in 2016 for the runoffs as I will be there.

For the sport,

Jeremy Swank

[allof6]

Hooray for the club. The devil will be in the details, however.

Jim

So what are the details Jim or Jay?

[Jnovak]

No details yet. For sure we will be running restrictors at a heavier weight than any of the 2 strokes. There may also be a limitation on which engines can be used but I really know no more than anyone else.

This is great news IMO as I think it will help the new class grow.

[jim murphy]

So what are the details Jim or Jay?

Leave the rules like they are now and maybe only allow drivetrains older than 2 years, thus the current production drivetrain has to wait 2 years for the next generation (new every two years). What this does is to allow us to check them out to see if there is any unusual advantage. These four bike makers are constantly looking for some small advantage as they all race against each other.

Jim

[allof6]

Leave the rules like they are now and maybe only allow drivetrains older than 2 years, thus the current production drivetrain has to wait 2 years for the next generation (new every two years). What this does is to allow us to check them out to see if there is any unusual advantage. These four bike makers are constantly looking for some small advantage as they all race against each other.

Jim

I don't see any "DEVIL" in that. You made it sound that there was going to be some off the wall engine changes or something. If that's what they do than its not a bad thing and they are least doing some rules definition the beginning.

Thanks

[jim murphy]

I don't see any "DEVIL" in that. You made it sound that there was going to be some off the wall engine changes or something. If that's what they do than its not a bad thing and they are least doing some rules definition the beginning.

Thanks

This is what I am hoping for - the Devil is the unknown at this time.

Jim

[allof6]

When will we know?

[lancer360]

November Fast track will be the updated rules.

[chris huskamp]

http://www.scca.com/clubracing/news.cfm?cid=51653

Now let's focus on racing.

Huskamp

[allof6]

Thanks Chris!

[P. Howarth]

I sure hope the designers for this class don't optimize for a heavy car. I hate to see weight strapped to a car to equalize them down to some old car that is down on power. I understand it, but I just think a light car is so much more fun to drive. In other words, there will be a time when the 494 and older engines are not around much like the 440's, but the 600s (two and four stroke) will still be lugging around led, but when people say let's drop the weight we can't because a good designer would have built the weight into the car in the best way possible. I know we put a thick steel pan on our karts and cars, so that is easy to drop. I hope others do the same. Us short people have long since gotten used to adding weight to our rides.
Congrats to all and I hope to join you all in 3-5 years with a 600(four).