Why are YOU not going to Sebring?

[Steve Davis]

Just curious what people are thinking these days. A couple short years ago, this was a HIGHLY attended event. Now it's a DOUBLE MAJOR and still attendance appears to be down (158 total right now) - most in CLOSED WHEEL cars...

So.. Why are you (especially those that have competed there previously) not going?

Entry fee too high? (it IS considerably higher than a couple of years ago).

Too far to go now? (still same distance as before ...)

Class groupings make you unhappy?

Focusing on Pro Series only? (if there is one)

Getting too old to race?

Other reason?

I'm planning to go at the moment but there are only 4 cars entered in my class - last time I ran in 2010, we had 13! SRF/SM are STRONG (45/26). Only TWO in FB ! (I thought you guys were going to come out IN FORCE this year ?)

Maybe we can learn something about the 'why' ?
Steve, FV80

[Gordy]

Can only make one long distance haul to race this year (2013) and planning on Texas. Really was thinking about Florida until they announced the race at COTA.

[Daryl DeArman]

Just a thought....how many other FV racers are also looking at the entry list and saying "only 4, I'm not going"? Could be 10 of you thinking the same thing.

[glenn cooper]

am planning on going - just have not entered yet.
I have to keep an eye on the weather, because after the 2010 event (admittedly a freak dip in the jet stream) that was near zero degrees, I have no desire to do that again!

[racinray]

Just curious what people are thinking these days. A couple short years ago, this was a HIGHLY attended event. Now it's a DOUBLE MAJOR and still attendance appears to be down (158 total right now) - most in CLOSED WHEEL cars...

So.. Why are you (especially those that have competed there previously) not going?

Entry fee too high? (it IS considerably higher than a couple of years ago).

Too far to go now? (still same distance as before ...)

Class groupings make you unhappy?

Focusing on Pro Series only? (if there is one)

Getting too old to race?

Other reason?

I'm planning to go at the moment but there are only 4 cars entered in my class - last time I ran in 2010, we had 13! SRF/SM are STRONG (45/26). Only TWO in FB ! (I thought you guys were going to come out IN FORCE this year ?)

Maybe we can learn something about the 'why' ?
Steve, FV80

Hi Steve,

I have raced there twice and although I'm glad I have raced there since it is such a historic track, here is why I don't plan on going back anytime soon.

1) The tow is really far for me so I paid someone to take my car and flew down but that costs more money so it isn't something that I really want to do.
2) The track is really bumpy and not all that enjoyable for me.
3) The open wheel groupings stink. I will never forget trying to learn the track in my FV on the test day and having 4 or 5 much faster cars dive bombing me in just about every corner every lap.
4) The last time I raced there it was an unusually cold winter for them and it was 36 degrees and raining in the race!
5) I'm focusing on the pro series next year with my FF.

Have fun!

Ray

[formulasuper]

am planning on going - just have not entered yet.
I have to keep an eye on the weather, because after the 2010 event (admittedly a freak dip in the jet stream) that was near zero degrees, I have no desire to do that again!

If your name was already on the entry list I'd bet a bunch more FB'rs would join in just to say they had raced with Giancarlo Di Coopola!

note: I'm not going cause I'm not invited.

[Hardingfv32]

I am not sure it is age as much as it is experience. With experience you can make more accurate decisions about the 'cost to fun' benefit of an event.

Age does effect the cost analysis. You have a much clearer view of your financial status. Nearing or actual retirements goals are simply not what they were before the recession and 'new normal'. Travel costs are much higher than ever before and probably never going down. Simply can not be as cavalier with your entertainment dollar.

On the 'fun' side of the equation, experience sharpens ones opinion on what is 'fun'. Lack of a good competitive (not large) field makes it hard to get motivated for a race. You do not tolerate 'going down the road' like you did in the past. Weather becomes a big factor. Just nothing to prove racing under bad weather conditions any more. The quality and excitement of the track comes into play. I know I have a much narrower view and tolerance for what I call 'fun'.

Nothing SCCA can do change much of this.

Brian

[Steve Davis]

...
Nothing SCCA can do change much of this.

Brian

au contraire - SCCA has a great new plan called MAJORS .. and Sebring happens to BE one.
Hmmm... maybe it's not working all that well ... yet ?

I do agree that the COTA event will be affecting a lot of people this year - it's SUCH a long tow, but SUCH an enticing venue. I'm dying to get some details about what might happen after one gets there - especially with the likely LARGE fields and therefore GROUPINGS .. but NO real information seems to be available, since almost no one has ever been there ( to participate with a race car ). ZERO info on paddock space, access, camping, etc, though I do seem to recall something about "locking the gates" at 10 PM.

Steve, FV80

[Hardingfv32]

au contraire - SCCA has a great new plan called MAJORS .. and Sebring happens to BE one.
Hmmm... maybe it's not working all that well ... yet ?

Again... experience. Is all the extra traveling and expense worth a 'conference championship'? I assume that that is all that comes with a Majors championship. Your are very lucky to still be motivated to winning a championship with your level of racing history.

Again experience plays against the whole Majors program. Most winning competitors know the winning 'feeling'. Is all the extra travel worth a conference title? The Majors program is all about who has the time and money for the travel required.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

ZERO info on paddock space, access, camping, etc,

All very dicey if you consider that COTA has no experience with club events. The facility layout looks like there was absolutely no though given to having club like events. COTA is for pro events only. Amateur events are going to be just a set of headaches. What are the chances that the track management is going to be very cooperative... I am thinking Barber.

Brian

[Purple Frog]

Steve, I am rocking on the fence.
Pros:
The tow is not much longer than Road Atlanta.
Already 7 FCs entered.
I never have raced against Bill Jordan. That's on the bucket list.
On a 3.7 mile track, it (5) is a good run group.
Its a long time between the ARRC (Nov) and Atlanta (March)
The Grandkids have that week off.
Maybe Jim Morgan will show.
Group 5 is a great hour to race if weather is cold.
Historic. I first attended in 1962. A nostalgia thing.
The car is mostly ready.
I have a set of stickers and a set of scuffs.
It won't be friggin' hot.
Don't plan on running COTA until it has 20 years of "history".
The Reynard doesn't realize the track is rough.
Would like to support the "Major" initiative.

Cons:
Taking a clapped out Reynard to a Majors is sort of a Travesty.
Just got back from 8 days on St. Thomas. $$
The expected cost of Christmas. A grandkid thing.
That week has traditionally been a big party week at our lake cottage.
Turn 1 lap 1... stupidity.
$500 entry fee is an eye-opener to reality. Not a bad thing, just reality.

[Brett Lane]

Yeah- experience, time and money. I am going to PBIR, and will probably miss Sebring this year because I can't get both weekends off and don't have the money to do two double Nationals in one month. I probably will never get to the runoffs at this point in my life, but that circumstance could change. That being said, I am not looking for an invite there. If I had a choice I would prefer to make the Sebring event, but I don't. My employer decides that for me.

As far as the weather is concerned, it is probably more predictable in the fall at Road America than in January in Florida. BUT the chances are of getting another kick ass front like in 2010 is pretty slim. You could get one, but not as severe. So anyone who is considering not going because of that should think again....

[Steve Davis]

...
$500 entry fee is an eye-opener to reality. Not a bad thing, just reality.

Actually it *IS* a 'bad thing'. Doesn't seem to be much we can do about it, but it certainly affects ME to a large degree.

I guess it seems that food/lodging/fuel are things that the club simply CANNOT control .. however ENTRY FEES are a different matter. The problem is that no region can afford to take a gamble to FIND OUT if a lower entry fee would help attendance... instead they have to RAISE entry fees based on the premise that few will show up... and that exactly what happens, at least partially because of the entry fee ... or so it seems to me.

I wonder if .... Say .. what about offering an EARLY ENTRY FEE - say 2 or 3 months in advance at, oh... $150 off ?? Now THAT's an idea worth consideration ... or is it?

I can hardly wait to see the actual final entry fee for COTA...
Steve, FV80

[Hardingfv32]

I can hardly wait to see the actual final entry fee for COTA...

The rumor is $700 for a DBL and I can see the possibility of $500 for the test day. Track fee is said to be $50K per day! So a bunch of fancy painted runoff area's is worth $700? The days are short in March, what are the chances you are going to get your money's worth at a first, for the Texas region, race at a new track? I have been to a number of first events and it is not a smooth process.

Brian

[Purple Frog]

Fuel prices have dropped about $.40 since i hauled to the ARRC in November. Usually, my towing fuel is the biggest cost of the weekend, so dropping street fuel prices helps.

I understand the costs of staging an event. I understand the costs of racing. They are what they are. I also know what my income is. I haven't raised my rates in 4 years, so it's like being on a fixed income. I have less descretionary income than years ago. It is what it is.

I believe the Sebring Major should be a great kickoff event for the 2013 Majors concept.

[Tiago Santos]

Again experience plays against the whole Majors program. Most winning competitors know the winning 'feeling'. Is all the extra travel worth a conference title?

I have hardly ever won anything in my short life, so I'm not terribly addicted to the feeling. But the impression I get from most WINNERS is that they love winning and it never really gets old.

I might have missed something, but have you won so much in the last few years that you grew bored of it? Cause if I'm just gonna get bored and jaded after I finally become successful, I may not bother, so please let me know if I should just cut my path to boredom short and stop racing

[budawe]

I keep saying the gorilla in the room is the economy. Like Steve said, there's not much anybody, including the club, can do about it. The tracks seem to be holding all the cards right now and charge a lot of money for rentals. Track rental is quickly becoming 50% of entry costs. Brian is right, COTA is $50k a day and there is a 3 day minimum. Infinieon is up to $28k a day. Very few tracks are less than $10k a day. One bright side is that SCCA has agressively pursued our insurance costs and have achieved great savings for 2013. Regions are going to enjoy weekend cost reductions of $1000 to $2000 on insurance alone. Folks are going to have to choose where to run and spend their money. Regions are going to have to compete for entries and we racers stand to benefit from it.

The club has recognized the impact that travel has on racing costs. Virtually all weekends have become doubles to reduce travel. In 2014, national racing will go away and there will be two paths to the Runoffs. One that envolves traveling to Majors weekends and one where folks can stay close to home and run local events. In 2013 there is an advantage to running Majors events since it takes only 3 Majors weekends to qualify for the Runoffs and points are not an issue.

2013 marks the 50th aniversary of the Runoffs. If you have ever considered going to the Runoffs, this is the year to do it. There are special things planned and I will not be surprised to see many famous former SCCA champions coming back for a reunion. The club has extended an open invitation to all former champions to come back and compete. Can you imagine Michael Andretti and Bob Loberberg competing in Fords again? Whoa, I can only hope. This event will be epic and I suggest that everyone put it on their bucket list.

It's tough out there, but I'd like to wish everyone a successful and safe 2013 season.

[FVEE56]

We were looking at taking 3 cars to the Quad National. That plan went away now because the SCCA tells us you only need to run 3 Majors to qualify for the Runoffs. Why toe that far and spend the money and vacation time? Looks like the SCCA wants less cars running races throughout the year!

[Amon]

Steve:

1.) Too Far!

2.) Gas is too expensive for distance required!

3.) FV is currently in parts for "off season" tear-down.

4.) I hate to see the Visa after my wife's Christmas Shopping!

5.) Heading to Florida in late March anyhow!

Thanks!

Mark

92' Protoform P-1

[Steve Bamford]

We will be there so add us to the list, just haven't gotten around to filling out the entry forms as of yet. No complaints on the groupings & spacing of them from me as it works in our favor.

Long haul but not many other options if we want to actually race in Jan as the Rand group is hibernating for the entire winter. Having back to back weekends helps offset some of the transport expense to track time.

[Steve Davis]

...That plan went away now because the SCCA tells us you only need to run 3 Majors to qualify for the Runoffs.

You MIGHT have misread what they said ... or *I* might have. I recall them saying you could make the Runoffs in only 3 MAJORS *WEEKENDS* - i.e. SIX completed events - not 3 majors .. but 6 since all are doubles.

I could be wrong, but don't think so...
Maybe that's what you meant anyway, but wanted to clarify it just in case.
Steve, FV80

[Hardingfv32]

Regions are going to enjoy weekend cost reductions of $1000 to $2000 on insurance alone.

How does that equate on a per entrant level with say a 200 entrant size event?

Brian

[Tiago Santos]

consider "a" the expected savings per entrant:

1000/200 < a < 2000/200

In reality, since I imagine most entry fees these days are set to break even for expected fields considerably smaller than 200, the savings per entrant might even be bigger. Whether or not they'll be passed on to us is a different matter.

[Hardingfv32]

They said three separate Majors 'events'. So what is an event... two races?

Brian

[Steve Davis]

From the Runoffs participation requirements ...

Through the U.S. Majors Tour, any driver participating in three different Majors events in the same class (turning a wheel in an official session) will earn an invitation in that class.

Hmmm - I think you're right. It does say 'turn a wheel' during a Majors event - so .. if you TURN A WHEEL in any session for the weekend - despite that all weekends are doubles, it would appear that you qualify for 1 of the 3 required.

I wonder if they intended it that way. Probably so ....
Anyone on the CRB care to comment ??

Steve, FV80

[DonArm]

am planning on going - just have not entered yet.
I have to keep an eye on the weather, because after the 2010 event (admittedly a freak dip in the jet stream) that was near zero degrees, I have no desire to do that again!

Do this weather dance and you will be guaranteed to ward off that bad weather

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xi4O1yi6b0

[mikey]

actually, I read that a little different.. what's the definition of a session? an official practice, qualifying and race session sounds like 3 sessions to me! surely they don't intend for it to be that easy to get to the runoffs, but they don't specify TYPE of official session in that language so by literal interpretation....

then I read it again and see it differently.. what's the definition of an event? I think a double is intended to count as two events, so a double and a single would do it.. then you could stretch the "session" participation rule and turn a wheel in practice or qualifying in two different classes, never actually race, and still go to the runoffs.

since participation is deemed met by "turning a wheel in an official session", a DNF wouldn't matter.

[Tiago Santos]

And also since these all seem to be copied from press release type documents, the wording has probably been simplified and emphasized for dramatic purposes. Wait for the boring but verbose Fasttrack postings, I guess!

[Peter Olivola]

You're working this too hard:

1.2.3. Interpreting and Applying the GCR
A. Interpreting the GCR shall not be strained or tortured and applying
the GCR shall be logical, remembering that the GCR cannot specifically
cover all possible situations. Words such as “shall” or “shall
not”, “will” or “will not”, “can not”, “may not”, “are” or “must” are
mandatory; and words such as “may” and “should” are permissive.

If you look closely enough you'll find wording that clearly states this means participation in three separate Majors weekends with participation being defined the same way cars are counted for class participation, i.e.,timing and scoring records you on track sometime during the weekend.

None of which is to say the BoD won't change things, but as of this writing that's the way it's going to work.

actually, I read that a little different.. what's the definition of a session? an official practice, qualifying and race session sounds like 3 sessions to me! surely they don't intend for it to be that easy to get to the runoffs, but they don't specify TYPE of official session in that language so by literal interpretation....

then I read it again and see it differently.. what's the definition of an event? I think a double is intended to count as two events, so a double and a single would do it.. then you could stretch the "session" participation rule and turn a wheel in practice or qualifying in two different classes, never actually race, and still go to the runoffs.

since participation is deemed met by "turning a wheel in an official session", a DNF wouldn't matter.

[steve kramer]

One comment for anyone on the fence for any event: I was talking with a race chairperson that cancelled an event due to lack of registrations, the comment was that 5 days or so from the event the region would have lost >15K due to the lack of entries. After the cancellation was announced, there were a lot of "I was planning to enter, just hadn't gotten around to it yet" comments. Don't put the race chairs in a vise - if you're going, register, early as you know. The race you save may be your own.
And COTA will be epic. The track is epic, being on it will be.

[Steve Davis]

... if you're going, register, early as you know. The race you save may be your own.
And COTA will be epic. The track is epic, being on it will be.

Regardless of how "EPIC" COTA may be, *I* will not be there unless I get a LOT more answers than I currently have .. and I won't make that decision at the last moment. So... if the race chair wants entries, they better start coming up with ANSWERS. I have sent approximately 10 questions to the Race Chair and I have yet to get an answer to a single one of them... I did get a response .. just no ANSWERS.

Maybe that is the plan ... to control the possible high number of entries ?? I wouldn't expect that there would be very many that can decide to make a long tow without at least 2 months notice. Yep .. 2 months isn't here yet, but I sure would like to know NOW .. or at least before Christmas .... Once I make a decision to go the January Nationals in Florida, it will affect my possibility of going to COTA.

Steve, FV80

[Purple Frog]

Maybe Butch is lurking...

Since Sebring has two sanction numbers, and the Atlanta Major will have two sanction numbers, I'm thinking if you turn a wheel in at least a practice for each of those four sanction numbers, you are accepted at the Runoffs.

Interesting.... one could qualify for the Runoffs with an old Reynard and not even buy tires.

[budawe]

As I understand it in 2013, if you turn a wheel in 3 different Majors weekends, you qualify.

[problemchild]

To the question, and Steve's concerns about getting information. That has always been a problem for people travelling long distances and requiring long term planning to determine viability. Many of the SEDIV race info is very late forthcoming. I am sure that the Homestead/PBIR shuffle has hurt attendance at Sebring. I know people who rearranged or cancelled plans, then reactivated plans, etc. I am sure some just gave up.

[JohnPaul]

Anyone look to see how pathetic the PBIR entry list is?? 11 in wings and things. Regionals usually get more. $695 entry for for nationals and sarrc for PBIR?? I want to support my region but if it wasn't 45 minutes from my house I'd never go.

[Steve Bamford]

Low entrant numberss equal higher costs...higher entrance costs means fewer entrances...seems like a viscous circle. That being said, not many other options if you want to race in Jan that I am aware of.

[Evl]

Anyone look to see how pathetic the PBIR entry list is?? 11 in wings and things. Regionals usually get more. $695 entry for for nationals and sarrc for PBIR?? I want to support my region but if it wasn't 45 minutes from my house I'd never go.

Entry list?? Registration is open?? Where? I'll add one more to wings and things when I can find it...

[Brett Lane]

Anyone look to see how pathetic the PBIR entry list is?? 11 in wings and things. Regionals usually get more. $695 entry for for nationals and sarrc for PBIR?? I want to support my region but if it wasn't 45 minutes from my house I'd never go.

At a regional, Groups 2 and 3 would be combined which brings that number close to the average, but I have to agree it is pretty pathetic.

Registration is on DLB racing.

[Steve Davis]

It's on DLB, but you need to select 'ALL' (event types) at the top of the page. They've screwed up something and it doesn't show up under 'Club Race'. Possibly having a significant impact on how many are registered...

Steve, FV80

[jimh3063]

My car has been made illegal by the SCCA powers that be.
**** it, I'm going anyway.

Jimmy