Originally Posted by fvracer27
That is NOT what Greg implied,Im at the back and just as commited as you or anyone else,Im just slow at the moment.And if I wanted to be anything else ie:"Dead serious" I would be in Formula Ford but I chose the Club Racing/cameraderie/cheaper/ class of FV/F1200 because thats what the class was developed for..EXACTLY that.
I guess someone has to define commitment. Commitment to win? or just to race? In FST we are Regional , we wanted to race competitively and have fun. (half of our fun is between sessions at the track.) Most of us have families, make house payments, and a lot of other "commitments." Racing is 3rd or 4th etc. on our commitment lists. "
I would be "committed" if I wanted to make it to F1. I don't, I ain't.
Guys, while there is a little Walter Mitty in all of us.. this is nothing but an expensive bowling league.
You get some trophies and maybe a mention in SportsCar. Great fun, and I think overall worth it.. But "committedIf you looked at what we put into racing even at the "un-commited" levels, we probably should be committed. (to mental wards)
FV racers that want to go FST racing should go FST racing. Jason did. Doug did. etc. Some like the class but are not ready to wait around for it.
The time has passed to evolve FV into FST. One of the reasons, among many, is that the FST is a complete package that combines solutions to virtually all of the negatives of FV. What it does NOT do, is provide a way around the front-loaded cost or obsoletion of over-priced FV-specific components. This of course, is the biggest obstacle, of which there is no solution.
Partial conversion just is not feasible. Going to disc brakes without changing beams and wheels costs too much. Changing beams without changing brakes costs too much. In both cases, you end up with a more expensive way, to get less of a solution. The sum of the parts is what makes the FST package.
Those, that love the FST, should find like-minded people in their area and buy/convert cars. Exactly like Scott is doing!
The FV community has committed to the status quo. Those that want it to grow into FST, should just go FST, because pushing for evolution of FV will just speed up the demise of the FV class.
Lets concentrate on making FV cheaper and more accessable.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
Retirement Sale NOW, Everything must go!
Greg,
Well said....... and in only 283 posts
I do have an actual idea for FV that might help. I have been told by a long time VW mechanic that the 1600 piston, cylinders, and rods can be used in conjunction with the 1200 crank, 1200 heads, and 1200 manifold. 1600 pistons are cheap. 1600 "H" beam rods, like FST uses are cheap, and with a little machine work to the cylinders and heads everything will fit. Of course you will have around a 1580cc engine now but everyone can still use their same heads, manifolds, and cranks that they have put a lot of money and time into. Seems like a good idea to me.
Maybe a "prominent" engine builder can verify if this will work.
Scott
I am going to have to agree with others, this thread has gotten off topic. It is supposed to be about the future of Vee, not the conversion to FST. ( No knock against FST) Like Greg mentioned, those who want to move, the door is open.
Everyone has an idea on what will work, so is it not time to quantify the ideas and figure out if they are valid and how to implement them?
Many points have been raised, break them down, start a thread on each, and come to a conclusion. Personal opinion plays a big role, but not everyone will agree with it.
Minimum Weight - How Much, Why
Spec Tire - Yes, No, Radial, Slick, Manufacturer
Marketing - Who, Why and When..
Reduce Overall Costs - How
Growing the Series -
A big issue, I don't see anyone ready to take the "bull by the horns" at put this together, present it and implement it. The FST guys seem to have a pretty load voice on the FV forum (their marketing plan is working)
By the number of posts it looks like everyone want change, but no one is agreeing on how.
I guess we are lucky in the Ontario Region, that we can get together table an idea, and reach a descision, based on vote. One person controls the meetings.
I fell the support for Vee is great, Companies like Noble, Autowerks, SR, Vallis Motor Sports, and many others. They are all here to support the group, North America wide (many from our region support these US companies). Crap you can still get a new vee built, albeit from many used parts.
There is a tremendous amount of teams running multiple vees at events, people have a lot invested in cars, parts, developement. (Diamond Formula Cars just came out with a new off set shock mount) So the support is there.
Time to plan for tomorrow and the future....
Just to clarify my post above regarding using 1600 pistons and rods was intended to be a replacement for the 1200 pistons which are in short supply and much more costly, thus, helping to lower the cost and provide future supply for FV, not FST.
Scott
It's been 10 years and how many cars are there in how many regions? I'm asking because I don't know before someone snaps at me.A big issue, I don't see anyone ready to take the "bull by the horns" at put this together, present it and implement it. The FST guys seem to have a pretty load voice on the FV forum (their marketing plan is working)
Mark Filip
Mike,
To answer your question, I think they're strong in the Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois
and Wisconsin area, but sporadic in other area's. They've done a good job with the
rules stability, especially with the tires etc. I sold my FST and went back to FV because many of my friends who were going to convert, either quit racing, moved
or elected to stay with FV. So unless I wanted to travel with the FST traveling
Championship group to various tracks, there was no one to race with and I didn't want to travel that time, since I have three tracks within 90 miles of my home. I do plan to buy a FST in the next several years or vintage vee because both programs are of interest to me, and I'm not going to continue to spend an ever increasing part of my budget on tires!
Thanks!
Mark
92' Protoform P-2/05'
Last edited by Amon; 01.21.12 at 3:41 PM.
Mark,
Here is a list:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...67&postcount=1
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
This may be a silly question, but I only ask out of ignorance.
I know SCCA is the "club" but does each region have it's own association, president? IS there a chain of command for Vee's? (Nationally or Regionally)
You have hit on the strength and weakness of the SCCA.This may be a silly question, but I only ask out of ignorance.
I know SCCA is the "club" but does each region have it's own association, president? IS there a chain of command for Vee's? (Nationally or Regionally)
There is the National Organization with its rules and regulations, Divisions and then Regions.
To a certain extent, Regions have the power to modify the rules; however they have to watch out for the overlap between Regions and Divisions. New England Region can have its rules for FV, New York Region it's rules and NNJ it's own rules. So when you have a race at Lime Rock you can have 4 or 5 different rules for the same class.
One year we have people running for the following Championships:
NYSSRC
NARRC
NER
NJJ
NYR
Now in theory you could have 15 cars show up with 3 in each class!
On the other hand, if you trailer 3000 miles from Maine to California and show up at a race, you can be pretty sure that there will be no problems in tech with your car.
It is different if you have a group like EMRA or FCCA who set their own rules like is done in Canada. In the SCCA you are always fighting the politics of a National Organization (and Race Directors hate too many classes as trophies become expensive)
Mike Rand's organization may be the model for the future as mini race series open up tapping into the SCCA's cars and drivers.
And to be more specific with your question, there is no head of FV anywhere. We are just a class like the 47 other (or more) classes the are overseen by the SCCA Competition Board.
How we get anything done is amazing
ChrisZ
FV
SPEC TIRES so they are cheaper, Make them grooved so both vintage and non-vintage can run them
On the topic of treaded tires:
If they are vintage tires such as the Dunlop, they are $1028+shipping from Sasco. I typically would get about 3 double weekends out of them before they were DONE (about $85/heat cycle).
If you are talking about allowing a DOT-R type compound the ones that will provide an advantage are more expensive than the current selection of slicks AND aren't as fast for as many heat cycles. Currently the Hankook's seem to be at the fast end of the DOT-R compounds and are comparable in price to slicks (around $600/set) but don't seem to last as long---4 to 6 heat cycles before they lose significant time seems to be the norm. (about $100-$150/heat cycle)
If they are going to be DOT treaded tires they really should be a non-R type compound where they are designed to last MANY heat cycles without a change in performance---realizing folks will shave them if the compound overheats easily and their useful life will be dictated by remaning rubber and not heat cycles.
Daryl,
Yep, the Dunlops are expensive, soft and go away quickly. Hoosier's vintage FV tire is hard as a brick and wear is measured in "seasons".
Within the class. research, test and find the tire that meets the spec (low cost per heat cycle?). Once found, then you can work to get that tire to be the approved spec.
Let someone else (SCCA, tire manufacture(s), ect) choose a tire for the class based on a bid spec and you will get a crappy result.
My .02
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
Falcons
Sorry, I know this thread is titled FV needs for the the future but since the tire discussion has come up & speaking of $'s for a spec tire...
The tires we run North of the boarder are in the $4 - $5 hundred per set & will last for 2 plus seasons. I guess I shouldn't be posting that because if there becomes demand for them possibly the price could go up on us.
So for $250.00 per season we end up using them for 18 races, 6 qualifying sessions, 6 practice sessions on race day, 30 plus test sessions on test days. Not a bad deal, $4.17 per session for a set of tires or possibly a "heat cycle" if you want to call it that.
Matt Damon said in Good Will Hunting "How 'bout them apples?"
Steve Bamford
I certainly agree that there are tires that would fit the bill, I was commenting that I think a rule that says "vintage treaded tires" or one that says "DOT approved tires" wouldn't work.
I raced in a series on spec hoosiers back in '92-93. Hoosier contributed to our point fund and the tires were CHEAP for everybody ($240/set in '92-'93 dollars)
I believe in and worked for the acceptance of the AR in VARA FV1 class. I believe it's a great option. Not because it lasted longer but because it was cheaper.
I really like the idea of DOT tires but the buy in could be severe. I know the guys in Canada have done it but they didn't have hundreds of cars to convert. Just think about the adjustments that will be required to be competitive on drastically new tires. Shocks, springs, roll resistence and testing. The serious guys will do the homework, and what will change about the balance of the class? Not arguing, just thinking. Maybe Craig should chime in and say what it takes to convert. He's done both.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views and opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR. thanks, Brian McCarthy, BOD area 9.
No big deal!
I go back on forth between 14" street radials and slicks without changing very much, sometimes nothing. It's the same basic concept ..... get the front end to work the best you can by messing with stiction, then, balance the car with rear camber and mostly rear droop. Anybody who currently has a good-handling car can put either tire on and go race, probably making fine adjustments in droop limiting.
The radials will not allow the car to be driven very aggressively (like a modern FV with front droop limiters and sticky new slicks) so you just don't even try. I tend to leave the front end higher and limit the front shocks less.
As I've suggested before, the racing tire companies could easily make a one-size tire for the class that would perform just like the Falkens but would fit on the 15" wheel with performance similiar to modern FV tires that are 5-6 sessions old.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
Retirement Sale NOW, Everything must go!
If you allow any DOT tire your tire bill will be more expensive and not last as long as sticky Hoosier/Goodyear slicks.
The best DOT spec tire is something like the Toyo RA-1--relatively hard but very long-lasting and amazingly consistent from the first through last heat cycle right down to the cords. Anything else will put you right back into a tire war.
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
The RA-1, formally known as the spec tire for SM.
And still the spec tire for a bunch of NASA tintop classes! Toyo actually brought it back into production after the dismal performance of the R888.
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
I'm not real enthusiastic about a treaded tire but I'd be willing to try it over
our current situation if it prevents a tire war, and gives us longer tire wear
aka $$ savings.
Mark
Maybe I am missing something, but we run the Falken 615K in Ontario. I purchased a new set at the start of the season for $350 (set of 4, not each). So far they have.
6 test days 40+ 30min Sessions
6 Race Weekends 18 Races (20min)
practice, qualifing 10+
The tires will still go another season.
I am not only speaking for myself, I can say that the entire series in Ontario F1200, experienced basically the same outcome.
I don't understand how that can be more expensive.
Last edited by nbrigido; 01.31.12 at 5:53 PM.
I think what he's saying is that there are certain DOT-type race-use-only tires that would not produce the outcome most proponents of a spec tire are looking for. An example would be the Hoosier R6. In other words, you would want to carefully select the most appropriate DOT-type tire, not simply allow "any" DOT tire to be used.
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
I'm sure whatever tire gets picked, there will be people spending a TON of money on tires, that's just the nature of the beast. If they can afford it, they will spend it. Exactly like spec miata - the front runners still run brand new shaved tires every weekend. But the advantage they get from that is definitely not measured in the multiple seconds as a brand new set of slicks would be. If they're in a field of 30 cars and they feel they need the extra few tenths, whatever. But at least the sane ones won't be 2 seconds off the pace (well, not entirely due to tires, anyway).
Matt's got it. "ANY" in the context I used it could be interpreted either way. (1) as in "whichever want they want" or (2) "no matter which one".
The R6 is one example. The newer Hankook appears to be a faster tire than both the R6 and the Kumho 710, a bit less expensive per tire but doesn't last as long as either one. About $150 in tires per heat cycle isn't saving anybody anything over sticky slicks. No reason to go there.
Well we can't cure stupid, but IF the chosen tire is $400-$600 a set and is less than .5/sec per lap off on heat cycle 40 as it was on heat cycle 1 there won't be any logical reason to. If it loses 1 second after 10 heat cycles but only cost $400/set we are still better of tire-budget-wise than the current situation.
My apologies, I took it as "any" "no matter which one".
At this point I would agree.
Nbrigido,
If that's the true lifespan of the tires, then count me in as a convert!
Mark
This is the truth! Here is the thread we started a couple of month ago about the same thing and gauging everyone's reaction.
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48955
Remember no rain tires required
Again, tires wars (That has A&E all over it
Didn't mean to doubt you but down here it's hard to believe that any tire last's
that long after experiencing our slicks, which are competitive for 5-6 heat cycles
at a National and maybe 10-12 for a regional. At least it would put more money in
my wallet to use for additional entry fee's during a season!
Thanks!
Mark
I am not going to say it is the best solution, but like you said, we as a group feel the extra money is allowing racers to keep racing. Yes, drivers play with pressures..etc. If you want to run a new set every race, so be it. The radials seem to get faster with age. As Greg mentioned in a previous post. I don't think anyone has a lost tire to failure, accidents yes.
For us, this is part of "future" plan. To keep the series, cost effective and everyone on the same playing field.
If allowed, I bet that a handful of racers in our series would use slicks and would use "stickers" where possible. But let's face it, atleast 90% of everyone who is interested in any type of racing always asks "how much". It is nice to have the upper hand.
No worries. I should have chosen different wording to clarify my stance.
All of Noel's comments are 100% accurate on the performance of the Falken radial, we virtually had the same performance with the Kumho Victoracer as well.
I can also assure that he does not have a "tire deal" with falken, none of us do.
Andrew McMurray
London ON
aandrewwmc at hotmail dot com
Forcing the FV community onto a street tire is major departure and fundamental change in the class. Although not many have spoke up on here, there are many who would be very strongly opposed to it.
Putting a street tire on a purpose built race car is about the fastest way I can think of to make it completely un-cool. If you're trying to attract new and younger people into the class, that is not the way to do it. Just people even thinking it's a good idea makes me sad and frustrated.
Street tires in FV sure makes FST more appealing though.
Exactly.
On this I have to agree. (allthough the apparent success of CAN and Vintage seem to offset this). One of the problems with FV is that it would appear to be a cheap way to race. (Which it is comparibly.) But, racing even with tires that lasted the life of the car won't do much overall to make racing affordable for most people. Trying to bring the full cost of racing down by MAYBE 10% at the risk of slowing cars down, making them unatractive to newbies, and the risk of another type of tire war, IMO won't do much for the class. Again, IMO, it will possibly allow a few guys to feel they are more competitive and maybe do another race a year. I think for saving the class though this is not the right tree to bark at.
Street tires ain't even the right hydrant to pee on imho.
So get a good slick manufactured then that will last...just do something rather then bitch & make no change.
Steve Bamford
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