What Does FV need for the future?"

[Matt King]

I didn't say I wanted them, but you made the offer so answer the question.

And same to you!

[Amon]

That's original!



Mark

[Bill Bonow]

Guys,

I am very aware this topic in general is a source for trouble. Apex welcomes any discussion (heated is OK), but once it starts to turn personal, all bets are off.

We've gotten through 5 pages of very good discussion, lets keep it civil.

If not, Doug will end it real quick.

Let's see this thread get back to to the topic at hand.

[Amon]

Thanks Bill! I agree 100% with your post!

[Rick Kirchner]

[QUOTE"You want to attract the youth, make the cars look more like a modern race car, fatter tires, disk brakes, wings and more HP..." [/QUOTE]

I wasn't going to comment on this thread until I read that line. This will teach me to type after two scotches and a beer....

Maybe it's every generation, but nothing describes the current generation like that statement. My lovely daughter - teach her the basics and she honestly BELIEVES she has mastered the subject. Not interested in the nuances, the sacrifice necessary, as well as the smack upside the head to the ego that takes place when it takes time to become proficient. What the hell, let's just climb in a winged car where some of the physics are counter-intuitive to a street machine - after all, I have "wings" on my Mitsu EVO, I'll be fine! (and I resemble that remark - I needed to stay in non-winged cars much longer before I got the FC)

I know there are exceptions, but I have more than 20 kids in my 130 person engineering group, and half believe they can lead significant development efforts with less than 5 years of experience. The smart guys understand what it takes. The teachable will learn. The rest simply don't matter. There are 6000 people where I work, 27,000 in the valley. Think of that for a minute - 20% of the population directly engaged in the engineering and the support of highly technical work. Yet only 4 have road raced, and 3 more rally/solo. That's .02%. An increase to .04% would be significant.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I've watched the FF and FC struggles for years, was a region chief of tech in the 80s, have watched all these new classes pop up and dilute the old ones because people wouldn't change, and watched the SCCA destroy the entry level formula classes with SR/SRF, FM, FE and even SM, while the sponsored indulged in a new set of tires every weekend, incredibly expensive shocks, killer motors, the list goes on and on, while car counts drop we fiddle - while our hobby burns (I know I'll take flak but what the hell - old navy adage - when you are taking flak you are usually right over the target).

IMHO Daryl has it right, FST+FV=future. Consider that none of the FST mods amount to a hill of beans when considering the cost of tow gas for a season. Don't want to pay that freight? vintage vee awaits with open arms. Unfortunately, there's no real effective governance structure for any class except spec classes, so the chances of doing something constructive, other than nothing, are a total crap shoot.

I race a pinto FC in vintage, but I'm a technologist at work. GROW OR DIE works everywhere else but the rarified air of club racing.....I suppose the only argument is the proper way to "grow". I suggest picking a direction - any direction is better than none. If you are right, the class grows. Wrong - well, there are lots of Vees out there, and lots of clubs other than the SCCA, so there will always be a place to race unless your goal in life is to be crowned "National Champion".

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice" - RUSH

[nbrigido]

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice" - RUSH[/quote]

Now Rush's Freewill just made everything better! (at least for me eh?) Thank you

[dc]

bill made the warning, consider it the last one to everyone. if you can't play y the simple apex speed forum rules, you simply won't play here.

again, first warning, last warning.

[jpetillo]

My daughter who used to help me at the track setting up the bike (a modern bike - in another lifetime) had no problem at all jumping in a Vee. She helped me look for one and drove for a few years. College is taking most of her time right now, but she's not put off one bit by the car's looks or antiquity. As an engineer, she works with advanced vehicle systems that would put many modern cars to shame technologically. She loves working on the Vee and preparing it. The systems she works on have to be prepped for missions. Some of that is the computers that run them and the other part of it is the nuts & bolts and gaskets, etc., the latter not a lot different from preparing any racing machine. She does find that many of her engineering collegemates are turned off by the mechanical part of maintaining and preparing the system, so I can see that youth does indeed have an aversion to that part of it. I don't think there's anything we can do about that.

Perhaps I should ask her what she likes/dislikes about FV or thinks other young people would think about it. One of my sons loves racing, watches races on TV (puts it on before I get there), but has no interest in racing a car - don't know why. Carts are another thing.

[craigs]

Actually if all the new crop of drivers were mechs and craftsman and had pride in restoration (like you and me ) , FV would be viable as it is. The fact is though, most new potential entrants just want to drive.

Some people here have bascially indicated then "scrue" them. That IS a valid position, but it doesn't grow the class. (and I thought that was what this was all about.)

Even if the new drivers want to simply drive, FV is still cheaper than any other national class. We should be getting that out there. We should be promoting the positive aspects of FV.

When FV is compared to all other classes we really do have a cost advantage even for the non tinkerers (if that's a word).

The class was built by guys who liked to scrounge around look around for old parts. But today even for the people who don't like to get dirty it's cheaper than FF, FC, etc... and the fields are deeper.

We should be comparing current day FV costs to current day costs of other national classes, not what FV was in the old days. The old days of finding parts at the junkyard are gone, but we still are driving in the most cost effective national class.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Well, speaking of choices I have made a choice. My choice is to convert my FV to a FST this winter. Additionally, I will continue designing and constructing an all new FST that I have been working on for a couple of years. I see no real future, or opportunities, in FV. Will there be an opportunity in FST? well maybe, maybe not. I hope to sell a couple of car kits to help pay for my design and mold cost. I am a guy that likes to build things so my reasons for converting are probably slightly different then others.

The reasons that I am leaving FV are, in order of importance to me:

1. Minimum weight limit (Can't make 1025 and don't want to buy a Citation)
2. New parts availability and pricing.
3. Sex appeal
4. Lack of national spec tire rule.
5. Rules package that allows a bit more design freedom.
6. Safety (specifically, side impact protection)
7. Wheel base limit ( I am tall and have trouble building a low car that I can fit into) .
8. Rules committee that seems to understand what to do for the best interest of the class.
9. Future potential of the class.

[craigs]

Scott:

Sorry to see you go. Got any backing plates for sale?

Good luck in FST.

Craig

[blackhole]

The reasons that I am leaving FV are, in order of importance to me:

1. Minimum weight limit (Can't make 1025 and don't want to buy a Citation) PEOPLE SHOULDN'T BE SO SENSITIVE ABOUT WEIGHT INCREASING. ITS MUCH EASIER TO PUT WEIGHT ON THAN TO TAKE IF OFF!
2. New parts availability and pricing. THIS IS A BIG ISSUE WHICH WILL ONLY ESCALATE WITH EVERY YEAR THAT GOES BY.
3. Sex appeal I AGREE BUT THAT IS FORMULA VEE YES THE FORDS ARE SEXY BUT THEY ARE NOT VEES.
4. Lack of national spec tire rule. SPEC TIRES ARE THE BEST THING THAT COULD HAPPEN TO THE CLASS. I HAVE RACED IN MANY DIFFERENT CLASSES AND AS SOON AS THE SERIES WENT TO SPEC TIRES THE VAST MAJORITY WERE HAPPY. GOING TO A DOT SPEC TIRE THAT WILL LAST 2 SEASONS OR LONGER. I KNOW SOME PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED WITH LOOSING THE "RACEY FEEL" IF ANYTHING THE DOT TIRE GIVES YOU A MUCH MORE OF A RACY SENSATION. I RACED ON REAL SLICKS MY WHOLE LIFE IN KARTS AND THEY WERE IDIOT PROOF YOU TURN AND THEY STICK. THE DOT TIRES YOU TURN THEY PUSH THAN ONE SPLIT SECOND OF PERFECTION AND THAN YOU GO INTO OVERSTEER AWESOME FEELING!!!
5. Rules package that allows a bit more design freedom. NO COMMENT
6. Safety (specifically, side impact protection) I COMPLETLY AGREE ALOT OF THE VEES THAT I HAVE SEEN HAVE VERY LITTLE SIDE PROTECTION I AM SURPRISED THAT THE GOVERNING BODIES HAVE NOT ADRESSED THIS ISSUE
7. Wheel base limit ( I am tall and have trouble building a low car that I can fit into) .
8. Rules committee that seems to understand what to do for the best interest of the class.
9. Future potential of the class. IF WE KEEP GOING THE WAY WE ARE GOING I DONT SEE US LASTING ANOTHER 50 YEARS. THE REASON I JOINED THIS CLASS 2 YEARS AGO WAS BECAUSE OF HOW LONG IT HAS BEEN AROUND AND I FELT THAT THERE WAS A FUTURE IN THIS CLASS. I LEFT 20 YEARS OF KARTING BEHIND BECAUSE THE CLASS WAS GETTING OUT OF HAND WITH COSTS AND THE POLITICS SURROUNDING RULE CHANGES. THE SAME THING HAPPENED IN KARTING WE USED TO GET 60-80 KARTS PER CLASS (8 CLASSES) BUT EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WANTED TO RUN THERE OWN TYPE OF ENGINE AND TIRES THAN PEOPLE MADE UP THERE OWN CLASSES NOW THE KARTING COMMUNITY HAS SHRUNK BY ALMOST 50%. OTHER THAN THE EXCEPTION OF ONE KART CLUB IN ONTARIO ALL THE OTHER CLUBS FEEL LIKE A GHOST TOWN COMPARED TO WHAT THEY USED TO BE. I BELIEVE THIS IS WHERE WE ARE HEADED IN VEES SOON. [/quote]

What i would like so see is an evolution over a period of 5 years. introducing everything at once is could be fatal.



1.Engine to 1600 (Personally I think this is the fundamental issue to save costs) If formula ford can switch to a honda engine. i think we can add 400cc and 2 more ports.

2.Disc brakes (it becomes more of a race car)

3.Steering rack (it becomes more of a race car)

4.Ball joint front. (less maintenance)

[craigs]

Not intended as a jab at anyone - just for my personal knowledge...How long has the min weight been at 1025? Has it changed in the past? Was it lower or higher?

[sracing]

Yes it was upped to 1025 about ~10? years ago when they added the requirement for Kevlar or Aluminum side protection. It was actually a bit of help to the heavier guys, since the Kevlar didn't add that much weight.

[SwanTechEnt]

I have been reading this thread like everyone else for the past couple of days and finally decided to input my $.02, so here it goes...

With the debate about attracting new blood and/or younger drivers, they are out there and have found a way into the class. I myself being one out of 3 in the San Fran region and a couple more down south. Bruce is right though as my father has helped me out a lot to get me onto the track along with the other young drivers I race with, which leads me to my first point:
* All of us have had family who have been in racing for a long time before us, and we have been apart of their addiction since we could run around the paddock. So it was only natural that we would develop the same addiction. Most youth of today don't have this seed planted in their heads to get the "itch" to go motor racing. When I was in high school (yes I know it was that long ago ) I brought my dad's vee to the school car show, and it had a lot of wow factor, but almost no one asked me how they could get into one or what it would take to be able to start racing in any class! I believe finding that special tick or motive to get younger people interested is key to bringing in the youth

For those that were slightly interested, the cost and effort factor deterred the rest away. Unfortunately as was posted earlier, most are interested in video games and don't have any idea how to do simple maintenance on their cars. For a couple hundred bucks and 15 minutes (if that) of setting up a game console and having hours on end of entertainment is way more worth it to many kids than dumping every penny you possibly have and spending hours on end getting a race car ready to get out onto the track for maybe 2 hours worth of track time? Sadly that is the mentality, or at least what I saw from everyone at school. Finding a way to show them how much it is worth it will also help. Maybe setting up a racing simulator event, pay $50 and the winner gets a free rental ride through a drivers school event and then go from there.

As for the look of the cars and that interest factor, Veefan's son is right. Fatter tires, more hp, modern looks all really helpful when you are trying to get that initial draw factor. Not to say that modern vees don't have that cool factor but it doesn't help when generate interest when they ask what parts does it use and you say "these cars run off early to mid '60s beetle parts... no they are pretty much stock cept for a few tricks here and there... the usual horsepower range is about 55hp... yep only about 55" even when you throw in the comment about how much cheaper it is compared to other classes. Maybe my problem is telling them they are beetle parts, and I should instead say they are special racing components from porsche or something . A creative solution to get younger people to see past the old vw stuff and view it as a race car is yet another key thing to find out. Providing a direct and easy as possible direction for anyone to go through to get into a Vee or FST I believe would help out a lot.
For example: Make an event of some sort at a H/S or college where one or two students get a no hassle day of racing a car of their choice (Vee or FST) for the day, just show up and drive. If they are interested then you can point them in the right direction to get them into racing more. If they are not interested, then send them on their way. I understand that the logistics of throwing a teenager into a car with no prior experience would be sketchy, but with the right approach maybe it could work out? just a thought.

That's all I got, hope my point of view helps out. I will duck and cover now

[Bruce Livermore]

Per my 1994 FCS, the minimum weight was changed to 1025 by then. My next reference going back is a 1980 GCR when it was still at 1000, it's initial minimum weight with driver. The original minimum weight was 825 without driver (per the 1965 GCR).

When they first started to weigh cars with driver (as a field leveler in all classes to minimize the weight advantage of lighter drivers), the assumed average weight for a driver was 175, thus the 1000 with driver. As Jim says, the 25# was added when SCCA required some additional side protection in FV's. Somewhere along the way the roll bar specs were also changed which added a bit of weight as well.

The average "Joe" (driver) weighs a fair bit more than 175# today. Adding another 25# to the minimum weight is a no brainer to me, just to account for the increased average weight of Joe. But that's just my personal opinion and I've been known to fight windmills in the past... BTW, I've never weighed over 175 (even as I approach my 60th this year). I can and do make weight when I work at it. But I see no reason to penalize guys who are just naturally bigger than I am.

Time flies doesn't it Jim!

Bruce

[smsazzy]

How much does a front roll hoop weight? Take that off the 175, and that is the real expected weight of the driver.

[problemchild]

Even if the new drivers want to simply drive, FV is still cheaper than any other national class. We should be getting that out there. We should be promoting the positive aspects of FV.

When FV is compared to all other classes we really do have a cost advantage even for the non tinkerers (if that's a word).

The class was built by guys who liked to scrounge around look around for old parts. But today even for the people who don't like to get dirty it's cheaper than FF, FC, etc... and the fields are deeper.

We should be comparing current day FV costs to current day costs of other national classes, not what FV was in the old days. The old days of finding parts at the junkyard are gone, but we still are driving in the most cost effective national class.

This may be true to be a Runoff contender but I do not believe this is to be true of the regular National racer. The gap between costs in FV and costs in other classes has certainly shrunk. In much of the country, where a few FVs are running in the Formula Alphabet group, they may have similiar costs to cars running 15-20 secs per lap faster. There is little romance in running FV in Formula Alphabet, so we damn well need to make sure it is cheaper!

[craigs]

I could see that - like I said before - up here when the snow melts we have 15-25 regional car FV only fields (and one F500 that we see a few times per race) so my view is biased. Cost/competition combo FV can't be beat in New England.

And with the rules changes aren't all national racers runoffs contenders now?

[problemchild]

How much does a front roll hoop weight? Take that off the 175, and that is the real expected weight of the driver.

There has been a gradual creep in weights of safety equipment and components. Fire systems, fuel bladder boxes, front hoops, taller rear hoops, nose boxes, side protection .... even seemingly trivial items like arm restraints, HNR devices, and modern head rests, are all adding weight. Some people think radios are safety equip .... which have some weight. All these items are new in 25 yrs, some since the last weight increase.

Beams, drums, and certainly wheels, have all gotten heavier as non-German manufacturing became routine.

One of the best qualities of FV, the 2 X 4 ladder chassis became "the thing" in the 80s and 90s, and certainly made cars heavier. Safety and crashability was much improved in these heavier cars, which now struggle to be competitive with larger drivers,carrying all the goodies that we expect today. It was not necassary to have a 60-70 lb frame as many large drivers are needing today. When you crashed those ladder-frame cars, you changed a beam or axle, and were racing next day (or next session). Some of these light-frame cars, deemed required to be competitive by bigger guys, need frame repair or frame reconstruction after minor accidents. After two scarey crashes in cars with 80lb frames, I stopped trying to build cars with those light frames. I personally would not drive a Vortech for that reason. It was great to see a Mysterian (2 X 4 chassis) win the Runoffs, although with a smaller driver.

[jhenn4716]

7. Can't we do something to slow down Mike Varacins? The guy is 6'3, makes minimum weight, can run a set of Hoosier in three Nationals and win them all, and still manages to be a nice guy. It's just not fair.

Here's how we solve the problem of FV. Just add 50lbs to Mike's car. Make only him run a spec tire, and he has to start at the back of the back. That just might, if we're lucky, slow him down. Otherwise we might as well all sell our cars.

[jsteeb]

After a year of searching for a car, a couple of years of building the car, a few years racing the car, and then a couple of years trying to modify the car to make it lighter, more comfortable, and cool better... I left FV for the following reasons (in importance to me):

1. Sex Appeal
2. 1600 Dual port is widely available, and half the price of a National 1200
3. Club Formula Ford Tires (and the look/durability that comes with them).
4. The mission statement of my new class: "Limit the effects of spending."
5. Steering rack and disc brakes for a more race car look and feel.
6. Ball Joint beam. Easier to work on and align.
7. Large guy friendly rules (wheelbase and weight) Which also leaves room for increased side protection.

I'm not trying to promote one concept over another. Just offering up some insight on why I made the decision to bail. By the way...I'm 32. Been an SCCA member since I was 8 years old (thanks dad), and started racing when I was 16 in an HP Bug-Eye (thanks again dad). The bling of "it," got me to look away, but the cost and the rules are what convinced me it was the right decision for me.

Good luck to all of us in the future! I just hope it's not amateur road racing, in general, with the problem.

Cheers!
Jason

[Mark Filip]

After a year of searching for a car, a couple of years of building the car, a few years racing the car, and then a couple of years trying to modify the car to make it lighter, more comfortable, and cool better... I left FV for the following reasons (in importance to me):

1. Sex Appeal
2. 1600 Dual port is widely available, and half the price of a National 1200
3. Club Formula Ford Tires (and the look/durability that comes with them).
4. The mission statement of my new class: "Limit the effects of spending."
5. Steering rack and disc brakes for a more race car look and feel.
6. Ball Joint beam. Easier to work on and align.
7. Large guy friendly rules (wheelbase and weight) Which also leaves room for increased side protection.

I'm not trying to promote one concept or another. Just offering up some insight on why I bailed.

Good luck to all of us in the future!

Jason

We understand why all you FST guys bailed on FV

"what does FV need for the future" ?

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

1. Sex Appeal
2. 1600 Dual port is widely available, and half the price of a National 1200
3. Club Formula Ford Tires (and the look/durability that comes with them).
4. The mission statement of my new class: "Limit the effects of spending."
5. Steering rack and disc brakes for a more race car look and feel.
6. Ball Joint beam. Easier to work on and align.
7. Large guy friendly rules (wheelbase and weight) Which also leaves room for increased side protection.

We understand why all you FST guys bailed on FV

"what does FV need for the future" ?

See #1-#7 above for your answer

[blackhole]

We understand why all you FST guys bailed on FV

"what does FV need for the future" ?

jsteeb said what fv needs for the future.

Stop feeding the dead horse, and conform to FST rules and than we can still call it Formula Vee!

I don't understand what is so difficult about this concept!

We only have one option and that is a 1600 engine. Why do we need to have 222 replies on this topic and beat it to death.

Why don't vee people want to convert to fst? Is it pride thing?

I bought my vee as an FST and converted it to F1200 rules(Canada) never in my life have I thrown a 1600cc for a 1200cc, disk brakes to drums and cut out the rack for a steering box that has the steering accuracy as a 1944 farm tractor.



It's time to change!!!

[jsteeb]

Sorry Mark. No doubt I'm a FST guy, and I was afraid the post would come off like that. I've given up trying to compare the two classes. That's one of those things where people will have to form their own opinion.

My intent was more in the spirit of market research... IMHO, the adhoc committee should be answering this question by figuring out: 1) how to market to their chosen target demographic(s) for new blood. 2) Better understand why people are leaving FV, and/or garaging their cars - taking multiple summers off (this would help retain current blood). What makes a guy jump ship and race SM, IT?, or FST.

I'm certainly no marketing guy, but that seems like the right way to go about rule changes like this. If they had enough lists similar to Scott's or mine, maybe some trends would start to show up, and the rules could be adjusted to address any challenges. I don't know... like I said - I'm not marketing dude. It would be tough to pull off within the confines of the SCCA tho.

See you guys at the track.

Jason

[jhenn4716]

jsteeb said what fv needs for the future.

Stop feeding the dead horse, and conform to FST rules and than we can still call it Formula Vee!

I don't understand what is so difficult about this concept!

We only have one option and that is a 1600 engine. Why do we need to have 222 replies on this topic and beat it to death.

Why don't vee people want to convert to fst? Is it pride thing?

I bought my vee as an FST and converted it to F1200 rules(Canada) never in my life have I thrown a 1600cc for a 1200cc, disk brakes to drums and cut out the rack for a steering box that has the steering accuracy as a 1944 farm tractor.



It's time to change!!!

The topic of this thread was started to find "ways to improve FV". It was not, "ways to make FV's into FST's. Or even "ways to build the FST grid". We are all looking for constructive input, not bashing each other over which is better FV or FST. I race an FV because I want to, I didn't buy an FST. For the rest of those that race FV's, this post is for them. I would ask that the FST evangelists lay off. We have enough trouble with a weak economy, rising gas prices, and higher entry fees. We don't need an FV versus FST debate.

[Mark Filip]

The topic of this thread was started to find "ways to improve FV". It was not, "ways to make FV's into FST's. Or even "ways to build the FST grid". We are all looking for constructive input, not bashing each other over which is better FV or FST. I race an FV because I want to, I didn't buy an FST. For the rest of those that race FV's, this post is for them. I would ask that the FST evangelists lay off. We have enough trouble with a weak economy, rising gas prices, and higher entry fees. We don't need an FV versus FST debate.

Exactly!

We all know how great and how much sense FST we have heard it a million times. We need to help our class FV so we can continue to race the cars we currently have. No one is going to change my mind about what class I race until I have cars to race against and I'm sure there are many other racers that feel that way this is why there is this topic to improve our FV not to make us switch.

I think almost every FST driver has been in the FV forum saying "FST this and FST that" WHY?

Out of all the people that posted on the thread what is the ratio of FST and FV members?

I thought FST had there own Forum on Apex to post about how happy everyone is?

Now everyone in FST you don't need to get all pissed I'm not saying I hate FST because I'm not I just want to improve our FV class not yours. If someday it comes to the point I race a FST them I will want to improve FST (if that is possible it seems like it's perfect now )

[Bill Bonow]

I agree. I have attempted to not talk about "it" just for the reasons listed. My only interjection has been to make corrections to keep things as factual as possible.

To take off my "it" hat for a moment, think about the many, many views of FV driver/owners and it seems the community has to come to some conclusions on its own."It" people posting, no matter how good the intension, only adds to the level of tension/frustration that exists currently within the FV community.

I do see the point attempted by the "it" crowd. They mean well as most of us still have a strong bond to FV (32 years for myself). I also know that after 10+ years of suggesting "ways to improve FV", many if not all suggestions made, falls on def ears.

I'm just thankful to Doug Carter for giving each class a place to discuss our passion.

Remember boys, just keep it non-personal and the discussion can go on forever

[Steve Bamford]

jsteeb said what fv needs for the future.

Stop feeding the dead horse, and conform to FST rules and than we can still call it Formula Vee!

I don't understand what is so difficult about this concept!

We only have one option and that is a 1600 engine. Why do we need to have 222 replies on this topic and beat it to death.

Why don't vee people want to convert to fst? Is it pride thing?

I bought my vee as an FST and converted it to F1200 rules(Canada) never in my life have I thrown a 1600cc for a 1200cc, disk brakes to drums and cut out the rack for a steering box that has the steering accuracy as a 1944 farm tractor.



It's time to change!!!

Kevin, you had to do this because here in Ontario Canada we don't have any FST series to run in. You could have bought many FV's that are available for sale so I don't really understand your post. If you wanted to race the car as is you could have run Formula Libre in the Formula alphabet class.

If we were to decide to change the F1200 series here in Canada I believe we would lose drivers/cars & the class would fall apart.

There still is lots of room for FV to continue on & people will always be moving from one class to another. I moved to FF to race because I wanted to go faster however I find the racing in our F1200 series much closer & cars more equilized so I am fortunate enough to race both. That being said if I wasnt able to race in two classes on the same weekends I would have choosen FF over FV. Reasons vary for this but I have the ability to race both classes & love that.

Many people move on from FV & many people come back to FV. There is great racing & it is a great class with a lower budget then any other road racing class I know of.

[Bill Bonow]

I 100% agree with Steve. The F1200 series is a fantastic program. Half the trick to a good program is local support and the guys up in Ontario have strong local 1200 support. The tire program ain't half bad either

I'm sure the reverse conversion was a pain, but just like Mark posted, race a class you can afford, have local support and where you have competition. In Ontario, that is F1200

[veefan]

Lets be realistic we are all going to be a little bias one way or the other based on what we drive.

Both groups have become the Hatfield and the McCoys !!! IT's CRAZY...

The discussion is "What Does FV need for the future?"

Well that discussion in my opinion was had about ten years ago BY FV guys and FST was formed.

I think the FST guys are adding constructive information that is useful since they in fact had this discussion about 5-10 years ago and what they did is working for that class.

Every bright idea for change that I've seen discussed on the thread - Weight... Parts availability .... Spec tire.... seems to have been already addressed by them. I'm I missing something????

[Matt Clark]

I agree with Mark that it is a tough call to make the move to FST when the NorthEast is still pretty decent with FV turnouts.

That said, I honestly think that FST is the way to improve FV, and I think that is why so many FST boys are in this thread. They seem to have address almost all the issues FV complains about. Thats why they did it. Not everyone will agree 100% with what they did, but that's expected and normal. The cars are slightly sexier/aggressive looking, slightly faster & slightly cheaper. That is a majority of the issue my 20-30 year old friends that would get involved have.

Do it over a 5 year or a 10 year plan, as many have proposed before. Ideally, the full conversion happens at once to avoid a magical hybrid combo that proves way better (like certain tracks reward a 1600 with the shortbox or something) I think some of the transition may have to happen at the same time though. That's asking a lot, I know. Wouldn't the larger wheels need the larger engine to push them along? And couldn't the brakes and beam can be incremental?

I am not a National driver yet, but would love to be able to run with the National FV names up here. I know that won't happen with a FST, but 10 car grids at Regionals would be ok enough by me. If we could get a FST movement in the northeast, I would be all over it. If I'm way off base, let me know. I'm just throwing out what the younger opinions are.

[jhenn4716]

Well that discussion in my opinion was had about ten years ago BY FV guys and FST was formed.

I haven't been racing long enough to know how things were when FST was first formed. From reading previous threads on here and talking to others, I can see that FST was what some thought the answer was. That's fine, I would never disagree that for them "it" worked.

When you were a kid, if you had a Rubic's cube, did you solve it the first time you played with it? Maybe like me you got frustrated, put it down, and came back to try it again. That's the same thing that's happening here. Yes the issues were addressed before, but some of us including newbies like myself, want another crack at those issues. Maybe it's a matter of enough time has passed that people are finally ready for change. I completed my survey and will wait to see what the final results will be. Personally I believe that there is a future for FV, but it does not include making all the cars into FST.

[Amon]

I don't know if this has been discussed yet, but has anyone considered a
Club FV (CFV)similiar in concept to the Club Fords. It might bring out those
old D-13's and lynx's etc. that are sitting in the garages collecting dust due
to the owners "PERCEPTION" that they're uncompetitive in National/Regional
competition. Just a thought?


Mark

92' Protoform P-2/05

[gbmetcalf]

I have been reading this thread with great interest as I have invested quite alot of time and money in formula V (I now own the Lazer project) and want it to flourish. I also am doing a complete re-design for the new MKIII chassis and body which will fit both the FV and FST requirements.
I agree with many for formula V to continue the class needs to adapt and grow. There has been many very very good ideas here but bouncing them around here does nothing but add to the frustration of the drivers that want to help the class improve. Draft a proposal, take it to the powers to be and push it hard. My experience with the SCCA is that if you don't make it painful for the powers to be, nothing gets done.

I remember one of my history teachers telling my class that change is inevitable in everything we do, it is how we handle that change is important. I feel that in order for Formula V to survive there has to be change, nothing major but change just the same.

If you do what you've always done.....you get what you always got.

Just my $.02

G.

[problemchild]

FV racers that want to go FST racing should go FST racing. Jason did. Doug did. etc. Some like the class but are not ready to wait around for it.

The time has passed to evolve FV into FST. One of the reasons, among many, is that the FST is a complete package that combines solutions to virtually all of the negatives of FV. What it does NOT do, is provide a way around the front-loaded cost or obsoletion of over-priced FV-specific components. This of course, is the biggest obstacle, of which there is no solution.

Partial conversion just is not feasible. Going to disc brakes without changing beams and wheels costs too much. Changing beams without changing brakes costs too much. In both cases, you end up with a more expensive way, to get less of a solution. The sum of the parts is what makes the FST package.

Those, that love the FST, should find like-minded people in their area and buy/convert cars. Exactly like Scott is doing!

The FV community has committed to the status quo. Those that want it to grow into FST, should just go FST, because pushing for evolution of FV will just speed up the demise of the FV class.

Lets concentrate on making FV cheaper and more accessable.

My personal observations, having raced both.
1) I don't think wheelbase is worth the trouble to change, but would have no effect. Considering the handling challenges of FST, I believe the shortest wheelbase is most desirable (from performance viewpoint).
2) The one part of the FST package that can stand alone, is the steering rack. Considering that I think it is a severe handicap with the H-beam suspension, I would allow it for those that think steering boxes are old and stupid. I believe that using a steering rack would be less desirable than a steering box.
3) While some don't like used parts, being able to use wrecking yard parts is a definite cost-saving attraction to me and works in either class. My FST car was mostly wrecking yard parts. $50 bugs ... one from Ebay, and one from Craigslist. The engine cases in both of Jason's engines, now 4 championships later, came from those initial purchases.

[problemchild]

I don't know if this has been discussed yet, but has anyone considered a
Club FV (CFV)similiar in concept to the Club Fords. It might bring out those
old D-13's and lynx's etc. that are sitting in the garages collecting dust due
to the owners "PERCEPTION" that they're uncompetitive in National/Regional
competition. Just a thought?


Mark

92' Protoform P-2/05

Excellent idea!
If nothing else, it protects the run group (FV, FST, CFV).

[gbmetcalf]

Excellent idea!
If nothing else, it protects the run group (FV, FST, CFV).

I agree! Excellent idea!

Dosn't NER or Mohud have a club FV class? "z" bar and all?

[Speed Sport Engineering]

All the FST talk is getting annoying, with the most annoying part being the notion that FST is so much cheaper.

All classes start out with the intent of being cheap. It's the competition that starts to raise the expense. Of course FST is cheaper now - there isn't much competiton. What do you think will happen when reputable engine builders start making FST engines? Or how about when there is a Runoffs field of 30? We'll be right back here again complaining about how expensive it is.

What I find ironic is those pushing the FST are doing so with a major selling point being the cost....yet the more they lure into the class, the more expensive it will become.

If that didn't piss some people off this part will...Racing isn't easy. Nor is it cheap. Simply put its not a sport for everybody. We should not be dumbing down the class with things like added weight so average joe can feel competitive. Why should those who go through the effort of staying in shape, lightening things as much as possible, ect., be penalized for those not wanting to work for something? It's like kids soccer games not keeping score so there is no winner or looser. We should be finding more competitive people willing to put effort into a racing program then trying to attract the "average joe". I would rather race with 10 seriously committed drivers then 30 average joes.