So well stated, guess That's why you're still in the sport (and business) after all these years. To me it apples to more then just brakes...Originally Posted by kea
So well stated, guess That's why you're still in the sport (and business) after all these years. To me it apples to more then just brakes...
John H.
Reynard 88SF
Brakes
Wren, That funny Wilwood brakes are plenty for an $80,000 Stohr WF-1 that goes atlantic speeds, or their F1000, but not good enough for a FF. And how many of these outrageously expensive brake pedal systems do you see on FF's now? If none, then everyone must be able to brake as good as posable or as good as they are capable of as a driver already anyway? So alloy cheaper or more expensive calipers are unnessesary, to reach max performance, right. AZJC, If FF and FC have plenty of brakes to over slow them now allowing Cheap or expensive alloy calipers should have no effect on anyone, except reduce cost for new cars.
Ben, listen to this man, he is wise.Hey, facts aren't allowed here! This is a discussion forum!
Funny stuff... don't use technology and manufacturing for progress with aluminum brake calipers because it's a contained cost class, but do use it outside of the intent of the class in chassis design, where cost containment would skyrocket out of control in a heartbeat and ALL contemporary chassis will obsolete instantly.
Makes sense to me.
The stohr competitors are using Wilwoods because that is what is on their car and maybe the only thing that will fit. The FB guys that know what they are doing are abandoning the Wilwood calipers and moving over to calipers from AP or PFC. I have no doubt that the DSR guys would see similar improvements in braking if they were to switch.
The DSR guys are also concerned about weight and I have no doubt that the Wilwoods they use are substantially lighter than the better brake calipers. That is also why the Wilwoods are more flexible. The AP and PFC calipers also seem to have much better pad compound availability.
Realistic cost for the good aluminum calipers will be thousands of dollars.
Since when does sense have anything to do with opinions?
Makes sense to me.
YES on replacing 40 year old calipers
Readers
I have posted many times on this subject. Some may argue it's promote PFC calipers, some may actually find relevant information and some may just be annoyed by the whole thing
The bottom line is the LD19-LD20 cast iron calipers have been around for over 40 years and were never designed for the duty cycles of racing and certainly weren't intended for use with modern day racing slicks.
The LD19 came off of BSA motorcycles and the LD20's were on Morris Minors so if there are those who feel the performance vs. costs, justifies their use, OK.
If there are those who feel the CRB should review an update to the FC and FF classes, YES, I agree along with most of the readers based on the resent survey.
I just hope the CRB comes up with a decision soon and we move on from the argument side to the implementation stage, one way or the other.
Darrick Dong
Brakes
Wren, Your kidding right? The WF-1 Stohr cost is $80,000 and guys upgrade to Carbon body, Ti suspension, they have custom lite wt. upright upgrades, they can use any caliper they want. If they thought it needed better brakes they would be on there. There are mag calipers much liter than the Wilwood billet al. so that is a bogus argument. Alum. caliper thousands of dollars who are you kidding? There's tons available under $200. Where are the ultra expensive brake pedals your talking about? who has those? Why? Because you don't need them!
You would have a hard time convincing me that a lug mount wilwood caliper is the optimum solution for braking. I don't know much about the DSR brakes, but I have seen people in other classes swap away from the Wilwoods and be much happier. I know that Citation and Phoenix have both moved away from the Wilwood calipers and to the PFC stuff. Costs on the PFCs just for for calipers and pads is in to the thousands of dollars. I doubt that either Citation or Phoenix would have gone to the trouble of re-engineering uprights and buying new wheels if the Wilwoods were good enough. I have been corrected on the availability of pads and I now understand that pad availability is fine for some of the other Wilwood calipers.
What is hard to believe about the multi-thousand dollar pedal assemblies? Look at the tilton 77 stuff in the pegasus catalog. I haven't ever driven a car with them, but they are certainly out there and I have heard good things about them.
On another note, does anyone know what kind of aluminum caliper is available for a DB-6 that will work with panasports? No, I won't be considering Wilwoods for the car.
Wren is not kidding. Both Citations ditched the Wilwood's in favor of the PFCs. They cost considerably more, and work considerably better according to the drivers of both cars. The Wilwoods on the Stohrs may be better than the Wilwoods that were on the Citations, though. I just know that there was no comparison performance-wise between the Wilwoods we ran and the PFCs that are on now.
Schwietz's Citation has the pedal and master cylinder setup that Wren is talking about. You don't NEED it, as you say, but he sure prefers the feel it gives.
Brakes
Maybe they liked the "feel" of their pedal better. How much did the PFC calipers or the multi thousand dollar brake pedal reduce lap times? tens, hundred, or completely unmeasureable? Probably the later. If it doesn't translate into lap time reduction anyone with 1/2 a brain will keep there multi thousand dollars in their pocket. That's all I'll say, this is pretty futal.
Thanks for the education. Maybe one day I will be able to put together a car capable of running at the front. I'm sorry if I offended you by offering a differing opinion of the Wilwood calipers.Maybe they liked the "feel" of their pedal better. How much did the PFC calipers or the multi thousand dollar brake pedal reduce lap times? tens, hundred, or completely unmeasureable? Probably the later. If it doesn't translate into lap time reduction anyone with 1/2 a brain will keep there multi thousand dollars in their pocket. That's all I'll say, this is pretty futal.
AP makes an aluminum copy of an LD19. It's a CP3696.
Crossle 32F, Piper DF5 Honda
Exactly.
Careful, there's another thread where multi-thousands are being spent all while claiming no performance advantage........I know, I know it is for safety and to prevent an oil down and/or costly fire.
I'm guilty of over simplifying things from time to time. IMO brakes capable of generating enough force to lock up a tire are adequate if we are talking about generating enough force to exceed tire grip....However, consistency, ability to modulate, and feel are very important to driver confidence which doesn't often hurt lap times.
Brake Scatter
Readers
High efficiency pedal assemblies along with stiff responsive low drag calipers minimize the magnitude of "brake scatter". Brake scatter is when the brake balance migrates due to poor symmetry in force distribution during engagement or slow, erratic response at release. Typical in the small formula cars is 5-6% bias migration. See jpeg.
Bias migration affects grip and has huge effect at upsetting smooth transient weight transfer by making it erratic along with erratic brake response.
Bottom line, there is laptime improvements because of consistency. So yes, the driver reports better feel because there's better efficiency. Yes there's better control at threshold braking because of quicker release. And NO, improved laptime isn't always realized because of more stopping power, its usually achieved because the car is less upset during the braking event and carries more speed at mid-corner exit with smooth braking.....And that is why the readers of this site is fortunate. We all do a pretty good review of what's out there and make an informed decision. Doesn't hurt to win either.
Its never one thing in the details, its everything.
Darrick
Last edited by Brakeguy1; 09.30.13 at 4:41 PM.
letters to BOD@scca.org
dialog and debate are wonderful to see; letters to the BOD at BOD@scca.org are the only thing that can prevent the train wreck:
the BOD is urged to vote NO on aluminum calipers in Ff. there is NO brake caliper problem in Ff; there are multiple viable sources available !! NO case for change has been made by the proposal's unnamed advocates. requiring all competitors in Ff to replace the working existing caliper base from the past 40+ years to remain competitive amounts to a competition tax on a class showing signs of returning to the top of the formula car National participation list
name, member number
Art
artesmith@earthlink.net
There is a plentiful supply of LD19s?
There are multiple sources available?
It will require everyone to convert to remain competitive?
There are a lot of bold, unsupported statements there for a proposed chain letter to the BoD. Sounds a lot like the Kent arguments from a few years ago, yet Ford decided to start production again because there was no supply of blocks and Honda brought another alternative engine source to the class.
Broad, sweeping statements with a wide brush, Art. Not real big picture thinking, and no quantitative support from someone who fancies himself as an analytical data junkie. "Forty years of history" is a terrible argument to make to suffocate the technical advancement of any class.
Forty years of history really only matters to guys who have been doing it the same way for forty years. As a FV racer, the fact that many of my fellow competitors have 30-plus years of experience adjusting drum brakes does not make me wish I could have disc brakes any less!
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
Doug-
AP and ICP are both making Ff compliant cast iron calipers; part numbers are vendor specific. I have ICP's on my cars because I think they're a better design and they're made here in the US. repairs and new builds having to buy cast iron calipers seems to me like a much better "big picture" decision for the class than everyone having to buy calipers (and everything needed to install them) to remain competitive. taxing a class showing signs of increased participation after the 40th doesn't impress me as enlightened stewardship by the sanctioning body.
the relative performance of an aluminum four piston differential bore caliper with larger pads versus a two piston cast iron caliper should speak for itself...........
Art
artesmith@earthlink.net
Last edited by Art Smith; 10.08.10 at 5:14 PM.
No on performance brakes
Sorry Doug, but Ford making new blocks had nothing to do with Honda. The demand from many directions, racing included, plus the effort of guys like J.Ivey, is why it was done.
And I have a bridge in New York to sell you, too.
Bridge
Cool, a bridge.
FF Brakes
I have to appologize, I spoke to a few people who are much more in the 'know' about brakes, and the latest brake products, than I. And also did some pad testing on our karts at Beaverun last weekend. Brake pads can definitely make a difference in lap times, even with being able to lock wheels with either pad. After talking to somone else that has tested car calipers, they told me there is some calipers that are very very expensive that can significantly reduce lap times (.2-.3 on a short course). With that info I would appose allowing any of the new expensive calipers. Sorry for the bad argument, I've been out of the car stuff for a few years. I will be jumping back into cars in 2011 with my son driving Honda power in the new F1600 series. My arguments where sound if I had made them 5-6 years ago. So Sorry guys, I was wrong on this one!
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