Factory 48

[azjc]

It's a shame i have to work for a living, or this would be proceeding faster.

You could be like me.... spent a good part of the last week going over my car, doing those little odds & ends I never seem to have time for. Seems that as of last week I'm now part of the 10% + looking for work .

Oh well, just means I'll have to watch what I spend for awhile... but I'll still be racing .

[Purple Frog]

That wonderful happening in 2005 was a magical alignment of the planets.

This year is just racing.

I am trying to document as much as I can about the rebuild process and present it on Apexspeed, thus maybe making it easier for others to follow.

I can say at this point there is a ton of research and asking of questions to get ramped up to do a complete overhaul. Thankfully i have had Apexspeed to do a lot of the research. Even with the research, there is many times no one "right" way to do any of the processes. For instance, there is probably well over six different epoxies that one could chose to bond the floor on the rails. Which one you pick might depend on price, availability, which recommendation you like the best, etc., etc.

Many of the choices end up being compromises. But that's life.

I was going to paint the frame with DP50 (gray), then at the last minute picked a robust single stage car paint in black. Either choice has it's merits. I just decided shiny black was my choice...

On this project my goal is to end up with a presentable car, competitive in CFC, and not costing $30,000. In fact I'm trying to keep the rebuild/upgrade under $5,000. We'll see. I'm keeping all the records.

[FC63F]

Frog,

$5K is do-able but very tight goal - you will need to plan every step and expense from end to end and stay on the critical path - which is the challenge where I have generally dropped the ball. Emotion (desire) often wins out and kills my budget. Just ask Keith Averill...

Although you probably have all kinds of advice; you might consider reaching out to Steve Myers who recently did a ground up on the 89 Reynard ex Defer car to a high standard. Car was pretty trick with magnesium trans case, lightened everything and trick shocks and more...As you saw at the ARRC the car and Steve were pretty quick and nicely turned out

Finally and lastly, I look forward to reading about your choices and seeing in pictoral form the results of all those decisions

Regards

David Keep

[Purple Frog]

I tried to take frame pictures last night, but all the shop clutter in the background made it hard to actually see the frame. You couldn't see the forest for the trees.

So... down in the swamp we have plenty of FEMA tarps at the ready. I arrived home from work this evening, saw the tarp on a bottom shelf in the shop, recruited Mrs. Frog... and we have a picture.

Today the shift linkage was delivered to my local machinist to try to build bushings to tighten up some of the loose connections. Ardie will never forget that one shift I missed going under the bridge in 2008. Trying to fix that issue.

If one gets even one little thing done each day, there is a sense of moving forward.

Welding, media blasting, painting... $420. The new look... priceless.

Now Nathan can actually see a radically modified Reynard.

For Reynard afficiandos out there, you might be wondering what happened to the "pyramid" roll hoops. A previous owner was 6'4". He had the complete rollhoop structure reconstructed in Colorado so he could fit under it. The shoulder bars were 24" apart (inside to inside). I had them cut out and replaced, now they are only 20" apart, but even that is wider than the standard bodywork. To describe this car as "roomy" is a understatement. I laugh when I'm in it, it's the only formula car that I look like a little kid when I'm sitting in it. The broomstick test is no issue, by about 5 inches.

[rickb99]

Glad you clarified that. I immediately noticed the roll bar dealy.

But, I'm getting jealous. Our frame has been sitting striped down for (oh, my) almost a year and nothing has been done. You are INSPIREing me though. Keep going!

Hmm, wonder if that frame will fit in the trunk of the Lincoln to go to blasting

[Purple Frog]

Rick,
It's been 32 days since I trailered the wreck home. I thought I was taking too long.

I'm so used to watching the great pro teams in the F2000 Championship Series take a big wreck under their tent and have it on the track the next day.

Geterdun!

I'd like to take a tested car to the Road Atlanta National, March 20, 2010. The begining of the road to Wisconsin. Still "do able" at this point. (I'd try for Sebring in January, but it's history of being a crashfest makes it less attractive. And, the holidays will probably put a damper on my spending.)

[FC63F]

Frog,

I have a similar roll hoop design on my 90. The prior owner (Canadian) said that many Canadian cars received revised roll hoops in that the original pyramid structrure was considered an aero device and therefore illegal. Not entirely sure that is more than a good story.

One of the prior owners was 6'3" and had fit problems and hacked off the cage to better fit him - only problem was that that he moved the cage to the rear of the car a few inches and actually reduced head room. When Keith Averill began the process of fitting me to the car, we had alot of problems as he needed to move me forward to fit the pedals. We made it work but we came close to cutting the cage and doing an original pyramid structure.

David Keep

[nulrich]

Now Nathan can actually see a radically modified Reynard.

That's the only Reynard frame I've seen, so I can't tell how it's different!

Nice job so far, looks good.

It's always hard to second guess the work of another designer. That said, it looks to me like the idea of this frame is to use the lower section of the chassis (from the middle frame rails down) to transfer loads between the front and rear of the car. That may be why that area is almost perfectly triangulated, while there are some obvious "gaps" in the upper section.

It disturbs me a little that the main roll hoop doesn't extend all the way to the floor, but it's probably well supported. I'm assuming you actually sit back a bit inside the main roll hoop? Is there a stressed skin bulkhead of some sort there? Or just a backrest panel?

It actually looks like a fairly safe design. Much better than a couple of others I've seen!

Nathan

P.S. Do your shoulders end up level with the top cockpit side bars? Is that what you call the "shoulder bars?" If you find 20" comfortable, then I guess I'm being pretty conservative with our cockpit dimensions...I allowed for about 21.5" of shoulder width. That's what I get for using my body as the ergonomic model...some of these young kids may need booster seats .

[Purple Frog]

Nathan,

There is no rear bulkhead sort of speak. No strong heavily riveted firewall acting as a vertical diaphram. The fuel cell is enclosed in an aluminum box that the driver lays on. Aluminum box is riveted to bottom frame rails. The box, and an aluminum panel extending up to the shoulder harness bar make up the "firewall". That's it.

What is somewhat scary compared to modern cars... What I am calling the "shoulder bar" (the bar that runs from the roll hoop up to the dash hoop) in the 0riginal cars was just a single bar. The trianglation you see in the photo, I added. Having been T-boned one time, i thought a little more strength above the squarish middle rail might be a good thing. OBTW, that "shoulder bar" is about chin high when i'm seated in the car.

In the original cars the squarish rail that one's elbows might rest on was the top rail of the chassis. eek!

I welded 18 gauge steel onto the floor of the foot box, instead of riveting .063 aluminum.

There is a "extension" of a smaller tube from under where the main roll hoop is welded on to the top of that middle rail down to the bottom rail.

The bar crossing L to R across the floor half way beteen the lap belt mounts and the steering wheel bulkhead, I added. Something about watching the sod pass by last month with no floor... I plan to rivet a small "subfloor" as a saddle on top of those two rails... just cause...

I figure the engine bay is probably the most flexible part of the chassis.

I'll look through my files for pix of an original 87-89 Reynard that has not been bastardized. The original "pyramid" dual rollbars make more sense as far as passing the load to the bottom rail.

This thing look real vintage compared to my previous "98 Tatuus.

[rickb99]

.... I'm assuming you actually sit back a bit inside the main roll hoop? Is there a stressed skin bulkhead of some sort there? Or just a backrest panel? .

1st Question:
Yes your head and shoulders end up sorta back inside the hoop due to the angle of the 'back rest' which is actually the fuel cell enclosure.

2nd Question:
Your the 2nd person that has asked that upon seeing an 87 to 92 Reynard FC frame. The answer is no, no stressed panel. Just the fuel cell enclosure which is not stressed in any way.

3rd:
If you look at the upper cockpit side rails you'll notice a bow outward just after they come off the rear roll hoop. THAT is where the additional shoulder width is gained. On the 'standard' frame those tubes come straight off the hoop and run straight to the front hoop (with a slight 'kink' inward as they reach the front hoop.

[Richard Learned]

For those interested, here is a pic of my '88 bare frame to compare to Mike's I took during rebuild in 2006 after blasting. I believe it to be in the "original" configuration.

Richard L

[SWMyers]

Here's a link to some photos from my rebuild last winter.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/album.php?albumid=71

My car has a welded floor (courtesy of a prior owner) and additional bracing (1) between the upper rails in the front, (2) between the upper and lower rails on each side of the cockpit, and (3) between the roll hoops to provide proper shoulder belt mount points for a HANS.

[nulrich]

Interesting. Looking at the original frame design tells me a bit more, as I can see how they were trying to transfer loads over the top of the foot box.

I think the triangulation you added is a good idea. It might have made sense to add two more tubes between the forward ends of the ones you added running down to the intersection of the front roll hoop and the middle rail, but I'm assuming there was a good reason you didn't--shift linkage or something?

A stressed skin main roll hoop bulkhead is an advantage, but I don't see any way of adding one to this design without a complete rework of that area. My biggest concern would be side impact and "squishing" in the cockpit area. There's a substantial dash bulkhead, which helps, but a good main roll hoop bulkhead would be nice. Here you are relying on the bending strength of the middle frame rails and top frame tube.

Steve Myers did a nice job on his rebuild, there are some good ideas there. His firewall looks especially well executed, but maybe that's the standard Reynard design.

What does the car use for side penetration resistance? I see the lower cockpit sides have the radiator and what looks like an aluminum panel, does that satisfy the GCR requirements? Is the upper bodywork Kevlar reinforced? Pretty important safety feature, in my opinion. Adding a few layers of Kevlar to the inside of your bodywork might be worth considering. (Kevlar works best in tension, so adding it to the inside turns out to be structurally ideal...and convenient.)

That front casting looks massive! Do they ever crack? Must be expensive to replace.

Nathan

[azjc]

Nathan,

There is no rear bulkhead sort of speak. No strong heavily riveted firewall acting as a vertical diaphram. The fuel cell is enclosed in an aluminum box that the driver lays on. Aluminum box is riveted to bottom frame rails. The box, and an aluminum panel extending up to the shoulder harness bar make up the "firewall". That's it.

On my '88 the fuel cell "container" doesn't mount to the frame - it mounts to the belly pan on the back & both sides. The front sloping cover mounts to the belly pan at the bottom & to the frame at the very top. There are braces below the cell that support the "floor" of the cell "container".

[rickb99]

.....That front casting looks massive! Do they ever crack? Must be expensive to replace. Nathan

The front and rear castings on the 87-92 Reynards (rear includes the transaxle) are an inhouse design and they are UN-replacable short of buying another car.

I'm sure somewhere in Endland in a foundry the casting molds are sitting on a shelf and a guy in his 60's or 70's knows exactly where they are. Someone once mentioned that he had found some small quantity of the castings sitting somewhere over there. But, the machining drawings have vanished

Yes, the rear especially is subject to cracking (both the aluminum and magnesium versions). Not unusual to find them with WELL executed repairs. We have 2 of them one repair free and one that has 2 NON-stress area hairline cracks right in the oil reservoir! JB-Weld works good to keep the inside the turn stations

EVERYTHING attached to them is via sheer plates or sheer brackets and that helps to save them.

[Larry]

I have a used one on the shelf!

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products
703-759-0567

[Tom Valet]

Mike, best of luck on your "Factory 48" project. When you're done and are finally ready to build the Factory 5 Cobra, let me know, I'll share some stories with you. More than a few people here on Apex have built one. Scott Woodruff and Mike Scanlan have built the newer Mark IIIs with the 4.6, I have a Mk II that I built with the boys about 5 years ago, with a 450 hp small block. It is by far the craziest and most fun street car I have ever driven. A few pics to whet your appetite:







Take care.

Tom

[RacerDave51]

PF, hope the thread "high-jacking" hasn't discouraged you from posting your project...

See you in March at Atlanta??

[Purple Frog]

Dave,

I'm still on it. Had a bit of a hassle when the first piece of Aluminum showed up by wagon train and was not 6061. Had to wait on another wagon train, and you know it got cold down hear (50 degrees) so the wagon master was afraid of the bridges freezing, so the train was even slower.

Then, bam!, i got some kind of bug and lost 8 days of my life.

Just as I was ready to put the floor on i found a crack... so it was back to welding.

But, the new floor is on! I feel like i've turned a major corner.

Thanks to Tom Johnson, Glen Phillips, Sean O'Connell, Richard Pare, and others for all the advice. You know, with me, it takes a village.

My machinist built all new shift linkage bushings. That should solve one of the biggest agravactions I had in the past. Just ask Ardie Greenamyer.

While the chassis is still upside down, i'm redesigning the whole skid plate system, especially the old "V" aluminum bar design at the front. I'm thinking of a quick change jabrock system that might save some more weight.

There are sooo many pieces that need cleaning and repainting. Whew! and i do all my painting outside, so temperture has become an issue.

Last night I tried patching the fuel cell. That will get tested soon. Then it will a redesign of the fuel cell box...

I won't make the Winter Nationals. But maybe the first Atlanta race.

or... eBay.

[Mike B]

...Whew! and i do all my painting outside, ...

Uh-oh, I hope Al Gore doesn't show up in this thread, too.

[RacerDave51]

Oh, we use flux-capacitors down south to get rid of all that old 'bad stuff'...

Keep up the good work Mike...

[Purple Frog]

Things are getting bolted back on. Slowly. If it weren't for the PRI show, FC Registry, my wonderful customers that are paying for this insanity, and about 10 straight days of rain (remember the outside spray booth), i'd be farther along.

Currently the big slow down is that i have to build a new fuel cell surround. The old one was a dangerous POS. Must make sure that the new one allows for those pesky coolant lines. Of course, the new box, will eliminate any chance that I can reuse my 3 year old foam seat insert...

Amazing thing is that the parts that I unbolted don't seem to just bolt back on. They have to be cleaned, plated, polished, repaired, filed, coated, massaged, rebuilt, rubbed, or prayed over, before they go back on the car. Hard to believe the car raced 100s of times without all this attention.

[ric baribeault]

mike, can you say hondaaaaaah? buy a ford....ric

[Purple Frog]

OK, for those that care, we are making progress. I have finished a new fuel cell surround. Built out of .063 AL. Sort of a PIA. I have the bladder in, and all the aluminum pieces in the cockpit redesigned. I am a bit proud of the bladder box. i built it so that the only rivets exposed to the bladder are the few heads holding the 'floor" to the top of the chassis. And those heads I covered with HD helicopter tape.

Of course, now my bead seat won't fit the new cockpit. But, it does look like i can sit about 2" lower. So, now i need to pour a new seat. (more scope creep)

OBTW, the old "firewall" did not meet GCR regs, even though it was signed off for 20 years. The new one is .063 T6 6061.

I reinstalled the dash and started on the wiring. It never ends... The wire from the ignition switch to the coil had 4 splices in it! Can i put it back in the chassis? Not.

The scope to the project just keeps creeping up. So now I'm rewiring things that three months ago I didn't even know were a problem.

One must realize that he has to run the water temp sensor before the fuel cell box is installed. And that has to be installed AFTER the shifter linkage. And, for heavens sake, don't install the pedals before the front ARB...

The flywheel is off to be lightened. The shocks are off being inspected. The oil lines that got torn off, are now off being rebuilt.

I tried to get the paint off the old side panels. After a gallon of liquid stripper didn't seem to budge the layers of paint, I started waving the white flag of surrender. I gave in and sent the two old panels off with a new piece of T6 6061 for new sides to be to be plasma cut. I had bought a expensive air shear to try to cut the .063". That was a joke, after the blade snapped in 8". So I cut out the whole fuel cell surround with aircraft snips. Popeye forearms, I have. No way i was going to cut out those long side panels by hand. The King o' Cheap gave in. I can't believe I'm actually paying a shop to carve them out. The travesty of it all...

All the fiberglass pieces are off somewhere trying to be repaired. That shop has not called me in a month, so i'm surely afraid to call them. OBTW, fiberglass repair means new paint... more scope creep... paint was not in the budget.

I keep wondering... why I didn't just put the POS back together the way it came apart?
Barrett-Jackson is constantly running on Speed Channel. Hundreds of cars are rolling across the stage selling for thousands less than it cost to restore them. Yes! i can relate! I'm building a Reynard, that if I was charging a customer my hourly rate, would be way over priced. And, i haven't even started paying Keith for the really expensive pieces that got 'runt' in the accident.

But, my arse will never again be tickled by 100 mph sod. Gotta love it.

[jim morgan]

Frog,
With all due love and respect,well skip the respect, will it be any faster? If not, why spend any more than than is needed to go out and run again unless you want it to be a vintage queen.
I know another old FC that finished higher with duct tape than $.

[Purple Frog]

Jim,

U Dog, u r killing me. Rub it in, y don't cha. The damn thing will probably end up heavier. Besides, I haven't even got to replaceing all the bushings Chinky told me to replace. I'll have so much time into it, i won't want to toss it around hard. Oh, that's right... i never have tossed it around. (beat you to it JR2)

If this was a DB6 I was restoring, it would be a good thing. A Reynard?

OBTW, i was thinking... I've never had a red car... Since the wheels are powdercoated yellow, I got to thinking... red and yellow. It would look like the older sister of that baby blue car you used to drive.

Rand says race cars are supposed to be RED.
What does Rand know?

[formulasuper]

Jim,

U Dog, u r killing me. Rub it in, y don't cha. The damn thing will probably end up heavier. Besides, I haven't even got to replaceing all the bushings Chinky told me to replace. I'll have so much time into it, i won't want to toss it around hard. Oh, that's right... i never have tossed it around. (beat you to it JR2)

If this was a DB6 I was restoring, it would be a good thing. A Reynard?

OBTW, i was thinking... I've never had a red car... Since the wheels are powdercoated yellow, I got to thinking... red and yellow. It would look like the older sister of that baby blue car you used to drive.

Rand says race cars are supposed to be RED.
What does Rand know?

Hey Froggy, you know you don't want a red car with yellow wheels.

[azjc]

Frog,
With all due love and respect,well skip the respect, will it be any faster? If not, why spend any more than than is needed to go out and run again unless you want it to be a vintage queen.
I know another old FC that finished higher with duct tape than $.

How about the pride and satisfaction in a job well done? Piece of mind that all is well and if something happens you'll not only know how to fix it you'll be able to.

Besides if Frog wanted to go out & set the FC world on fire he'd have done it years ago and wouldn't still be driving an old Reynard . I do agree that you can at times go a bit too far, but if you have it apart that far why not do it right?

BTW - I use a electric jig saw to cut my heavy aluminum sheet metal .

[formulasuper]

"BTW - I use a electric jig saw to cut my heavy aluminum sheet metal . "

Or a high speed thin cut-off wheel.

[Brian]

The best tool I have found to cut 14 gauge 6061-T6 sheet is a Beverly shear. Mine will cut up to .125 mild steel, but it's the biggest size. It can cut straight or pretty complex curves. The other tool that does a good job is a plain old wood bandsaw. They are noisy but they eat aluminium like nobody's business. With a new blade I can cut up to 2" thick 6061-T6.

Brian

[azjc]

The best tool I have found to cut 14 gauge 6061-T6 sheet is a Beverly shear. Mine will cut up to .125 mild steel, but it's the biggest size. It can cut straight or pretty complex curves. The other tool that does a good job is a plain old wood bandsaw. They are noisy but they eat aluminium like nobody's business. With a new blade I can cut up to 2" thick 6061-T6.

Brian

Not enough room in my 2 car shop... or as my wife likes to point out "garage and half of it's mine" .

[Larry]

Don't sell an 87+ Reynard short! They just aren't appreciated in the States as they are in England. I sold mine to a guy in England, and he re-sold it and made a good profit, even after shipping. I often think the US is far too concerned with "latest and greatest" instead of optimizing what you have. The Citation is an example of a car that continues to be updated and optimized (and driven by top drivers). The 87+ Reynard is still a top car!

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[rickb99]

Don't sell an 87+ Reynard short! They just aren't appreciated in the States as they are in England......

The 87+ Reynard is still a top car!

Larry Oliver International Racing Products

Have to agree with that, Larry.

Everybody on here sorta snickered when one of our Seattle area guys put a Reynard 88SF on here for $17,500 FULLY and totally restored to 'like new' (beautiful condition).

It sold for full asking price and was shipped off to Europe.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33886

[andyllc]

The scope to the project just keeps creeping up. So now I'm rewiring things that three months ago I didn't even know were a problem.

One must realize that he has to run the water temp sensor before the fuel cell box is installed. And that has to be installed AFTER the shifter linkage. And, for heavens sake, don't install the pedals before the front ARB...

I keep wondering... why I didn't just put the POS back together the way it came apart?

Frog
It will be worth your while. When my dad rebuilt the Crossle he was in a similar position to you in that the depth of the job and cost kept creeping up but I don't think he regrets doing it for even a second. Now he knows he has his 'brand new' car and he knows everything is as good and nice as possible. Furthermore, he ran into the same issues of putting stuff back together only to have to redo it for one reason or another.

When he rebuilt his car it was all started because of a block that decided to open itself up to the world and a gearbox that also was no longer a gearbox so he really started from scratch. Take the time to do it right and get creative. We made the cockpit area MUCH nicer, more modern, and customized. For instance we got belts that have a shoulder belt and a separate hans belt so if the hans comes out during a session he is still tight, we also hooked up a water bottle drink system, etc. Have fun and enjoy the process.

[Purple Frog]

Because of the holidays, travel, babysitting the grandsons, and a wonderful round of food poisioning, today I got a day to actually touch the car again.

I took this picture when the Rose Bowl looked like it really was going to be a game, with 2:03 left in the fourth quarter.

Then, I came in and opened Apexspeed. I spent some time looking at one of Charlie Warner's cars. Slack jawed with awe and envy. I thought I should just walk back into the shop, take the 5 gallons of Sunoco 110 and pour it on the floor and torch the whole deal.

Fortunately, I remembered Racing Rule #1. "No matter how much money you spend racing, there will always be someone who will pull into the paddock spending more."

So instead, i opened a new bottle of 15 year old Rhum Barbancourt from Haiti, and ... decided to post a picture anyway.

All the wiring is done. Dash in. Lines and cables run front to rear. The new side panels (scope creep) have been fitted and drilled. Tonight my plan is to not paint the side panels, but drop them off at my local vinyl shop and just have them "wrapped" in a neutral color. Things are progressing to the point i guess i need to pick a color scheme for ol' Pollywog.

Back to Haiti for inspiration.

OBTW. Two Dogg Inc. has quite a nice selection of Reynard pieces and parts , and will probably be getting a check about as big as the one Keith Averill will be getting.

[Revs2-12k]

Looks great!

Keep the pics coming Mike!

[old 59]

I like the truck and trailer at the top right of the picture. We bought our son one of those too.... about 14 years ago...... oh how time flies.

I purchased an '89 Reynard F2000 back in '92 to run in the Export A series and the next week they cancelled the series! Converted the car to FF1600 and ran it that way instead. Still one of my favourite cars.

The car looks fantastic, keep up the good work.

[Purple Frog]

One must have toys for the Grandsons in the raceshop. I spend time escorting Mrs. Frog to antique stores (aka junk shops). To prevent complete breakdown from boredom, i cruise the shop looking for stuff that is related to formula cars or formula car racing. Over the past 15 years i've probably bought more junk than the wife. (e.g. Olsonite Eagle Jim Beam bottles, 300+ hot wheels cars, etc.) I picked up that orange car hauler and car in tha store in Indy while at the inagural Indy F1 race. It is probably the grandsons' favorite toy at our place, since we don't have a Wii. They will leave the house, go to the shop, climb up on the bench and get it.

[Tim Minor]

Hey Mike,I guess Tim Reedy will have to come to Florida and start cooking meals for you.
Yir
Tim Minor Fc88

[Chas Shaffer]

Having owned a couple Reynards and VD's whose previous owners "rebuilt" them I have to say PLEASE use a strap duplicator when making a new floor plan. There is no excuse to make swiss cheese out of the frame or oblong all the rivet holes. It is faster to mark the holes with a strap duplicator than it is to use the old pan and it is extremely accurate. Additionally there is absolutely NO reason to weld the old holes in unless someone already ruined the frame. I prefer strap duplicators with the marking punch but the drill versions work too. I have both.

I've had seasons when I've replaced the floor 5 times. I always remove all the old rivets. I drill a 1/2 inch hole in each frame rail to remove the old rivets. I use to tig a plug back in the hole but now I just leave them open to make removing the next rivets easier.

Nice job on the car Mike! fwiw... I've tried air shears, air nibblers, jig saws, 4" cut wheels and every kind of shear known to man. By far the easiest way to cut aluminum is to use a water jet. I found a local chopper shop with a water jet that I use to cut all kinds of stuff like floor pans, side panels etc. All you need to do is draw the part in Autocad, Solid Works or any drawing program that can save as a DXF. They can cut a floor pan in about 2 minutes. They can draw it too. Those side panels shouldn't take more than an hour to draw and would take about 2-4 minutes to cut. Same for the fuel cell. I started using 0.080 T6 6061 instead of .063 which stiffened the car quite a bit, lasts longer and added less than 1 1/2 pounds to the car. The water jet cuts it like butter but I couldn't imagine cutting it with shears. I've considered drawing my floor pan with all the rivet holes so every subsequent floor would be the same but I think that'll be too difficult to get aligned on a car that has already had the frame drilled. If I was building a new car I'd have all the floor pans cut on a water jet with the rivet holes and use the floor as a guide to drill the frame. That way all subsequent floors could be cut on the water jet and just riveted to the car.