Ford proposal to the SCCA

[stonebridge20]

Ford is getting ready to put a big push on the Fiesta in the US as well as other countrys other than the UK. I would expect some very large production numbers as the Fiesta is very well liked in the UK.

Can I start to come out of my hole yet?

[rmccown]

Ford is getting ready to put a big push on the Fiesta in the US as well as other countrys other than the UK. I would expect some very large production numbers as the Fiesta is very well liked in the UK.

Can I start to come out of my hole yet?

Only if you have your helmet and flak vest on!

[Stan Clayton]

Same with the Duratec 1600. Ford uses this engine in FF world-wide ALREADY. Why scoff at the notion that at long last, under threat of invasion from the east......Ford might actively participate in bringing it here? Sounds reasonable to me. But that doesn't change the fact that every criticism that has been applied to the Fit will apply to the Duratec.

Mike Agnafilo, you have been vocally critical of Honda's foray into FF, what do you say to that reality? I'd like to read a coherent response from you on these pages. You know what I'm talking about...how about it?

Come on out, Mike. My invitation still stands...

[TimW]

Come on out, Mike. My invitation still stands...

But Mike, you have to instead of just pose rhetorical questions, take a stab at answering them. But first change all the terms 'Honda L15A7' to 'Ford Duratec 1.6'. You have 30 minutes until you have to put your pencil down. This will go down on your permanent record.

Just a couple of "what if's" on the Honda proposal.

What if,..... The Honda is approved and over time is moved up in performance ( through successfull lobbying) to the point that the Kent is no longer a competitive engine? Will you be "forced" to do the conversion to stay competitive? Will your old Kent engine be worth anything?

What if,..... The Honda becomes the dominant engine in the class. Do you now have to spend money like the Spec Miata guys and order up a dozen cylinder heads,short blocks and intakes to send to your engine builder and have them spend multiple hours on the dyno coming up with the best combination of "spec" parts to gain 2Hp.

What if,..... SCCA approves the Honda and now another manufacturer or individual want's their engine approved also. Will SCCA have to let that engine in or be subject to suit under restriction of trade law? Which they have been before and lost!

What if,.... FF became a multi engine (See above what if) class. Would there be any parity among multiple engines? How would that parity be achieved? Who would test and adjust these engines to achieve the so called parity within the class?

What if,... Formula Ford was left as a single engine class. A class that is consistently at the top of the participation numbers. A class that due to rules allowing alternate crank, rods,cyl head, pistons, ect, ect,.. do not seem to make parts supply a problem anymore. A class that with the "new" parts in an engine has been reported by top engine builders to go 50 hours between bottom end rebuilds. A class that has seen a resurgence in participation in the past year. A class that has successfully survived in SCCA for 40 years with no major changes to the rules set. A class that can get 200+ cars together at a single race if you call it an anniversary. A class that is not broken!

[stonebridge20]

Only if you have your helmet and flak vest on!

I'm comfortable in a helmet. It's the dunce cap that's been giving me headaches!

[stonebridge20]

But Mike, you have to instead of just pose rhetorical questions, take a stab at answering them. But first change all the terms 'Honda L15A7' to 'Ford Duratec 1.6'. You have 30 minutes until you have to put your pencil down. This will go down on your permanent record.

Tim and Stan. I will write a long winded post on here very soon. I just can't do it now as I really need to generate some income today. Friday's are crazy here at the shop and I just don't have the time right now. I promise I will over the weekend.

[Stan Clayton]

Tim and Stan. I will write a long winded post on here very soon. I just can't do it now as I really need to generate some income today. Friday's are crazy here at the shop and I just don't have the time right now. I promise I will over the weekend.

Fair enough, Mike. I am myself dashing between the CNC router, a wing I'm modifying and getting ready to do another big layup this afternoon...oh, and checking in on this thread!

And prepping the Ralt for next week...

[doinganything]

I'm looking forward to hear more about this. I really like the idea to keep a FORD motor.

[Matt King]

I'm looking forward to seeing all the reasons Kent supporters come up with to explain why a proposed new engine from Ford has none of the issues or problems as one from Honda.

[doinganything]

^Yes, I have my popcorn ready too.

[LJennings]

Does anyone know if Ford or anyone else has tried to put one of these new 110hp Duratecs into any U.S. chassis? I thought the reason this engine never came here was because of the physical limitations of making it work properly in an American Formula Ford.

$8100 is great, but can it fit in our cars?

I believe this is the same engine that has been in use for two seasons in Australa. As to if it will fit look here. http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...=35108&page=17 post 657

[Daryl DeArman]

that would only get you 3 honda cores. Not race ready engines.

That would get you 3 honda engine assemblies. Do we know what that approximately $8100 gets you from Ford? Is that the engine assembly like the Honda? Or is that the complete engine with all ancillaries?

When its' time to replace the Fit I'm going to spend $2500 on the engine. What is the Duratec 1.6 going to cost? If the $8100 includes all the ancillary pieces, what is the price less all those bits vs. the $2500 Fit?

In the end I have a whole lot more faith in the reliability of the Honda, as well as the volume of parts available here in the US now and for the forseeable future.

I have always owned Ford trucks and motorhomes, own more Ford stock than I'd like to admit even though it is up close to 700% since Feb. I also have owned 8 Hondas in my lifetime, currently have two. So this isn't from a Pro Honda/Anti Ford camp.

I believe Honda has done a great job with their proposal, would be a great asset to the class and the club. Ford hasn't done sh!t for the class or club until they finally feel threatened. Let the Duratec in if it makes sense, but let the Honda in too!

[Jnovak]

I'm looking forward to seeing all the reasons Kent supporters come up with to explain why a proposed new engine from Ford has none of the issues or problems as one from Honda.

The main reason Ford will not need to up the performance ante with the Duratec is that both the Kent & the Duratec are Ford engines. Thus Ford will not have to beat the "other" Ford engine as the Honda Fit engine MUST if it is to succeed. Simply put; if Ford has both engines in the class there is simply no need to raise the performance level.

Additionally the technical support from England on the use & specs of the Duratec engine in Formula Ford will be invaluable asset & will start us out at a much better level the the current totally undefined Honda specs. The Duratec specifications actually exist as rules in England/Europe NOW.

Ford in England has been working on developing these 2 engine packages for Formula Ford on the other side of the pond for well over a year & the Kent owners over there have the same concerns as the Kent owners over here. The complete engine packages are already well defined & the 110PS engine will require very little adjustments to match the current US spec Kent engines.

On another note, when the Duratec engines are produced in the US starting next year & the Fiesta is selling like hotcakes the cost of the engines will go way down from the current 5000 British pounds ($8175 at current exchange rates) for the complete race engine. The $ is very weak right now & the exchange rate drives up the cost when imported from England. When production starts in the US the cost of the Duratec will go down significantly & the bare crate motors will be very cost effective.

Remember that Ford supplied the Kent engine to all comers at VERY REASONABLE PRICES for nearly 3 DECADES around the world. There is no reason this will be any different. How many years has Honda supplied engines to anyone in any race class in the US?

[Matt King]

The flaw in that argument is that Ford doesn't want it's state of the art Fiesta engine to get beaten by a 40 year old design any more than Honda does. Ford is not introducing the Duratec in Europe just to achieve parity with the Kent. It wants to sell engines, which means transistioning current cars to the new powerplant. Introducing an alternative to the Kent, whether it's a Honda or a Ford, still opens up all the same questions about achieving parity, which have nothing to do with what brand the engine is.

[Jnovak]

The flaw in that argument is that Ford doesn't want it's state of the art Fiesta engine to get beaten by a 40 year old design any more than Honda does. Ford is not introducing the Duratec in Europe just to achieve parity with the Kent. It wants to sell engines, which means transistioning current cars to the new powerplant. Introducing an alternative to the Kent, whether it's a Honda or a Ford, still opens up all the same questions about achieving parity, which have nothing to do with what brand the engine is.

I suggest that racers would move to the newer Ford engine because it will be significantly less expensive to race. That is the benefit of the newer modern engine. Ford will not need to make the performance better than the Kent, all they need to do is reduce the costs to race.

Now you can say the same thing about the Honda except for one thing & that is that HONDA MUST WIN TO SUCCEED, THEY MUST BEAT THE KENT. With 2 Ford engines Ford wins all the time & so do the competitors in Formula Ford.

I still ask the same question: Ford has supplied nearly 10,000 Formula Ford engines for nearly 3 decades at very modest costs, how many engines has Honda supplied to anyone in SCCA racing at any cost?

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Stan Clayton]

I suggest that racers would move to the newer Ford engine because it will be significantly less expensive to race. That is the benefit of the newer modern engine. Ford will not need to make the performance better than the Kent, all they need to do is reduce the costs to race.

Less expensive to race than what, Jay...the Kent? Either the Fit or the Duratec will go many times the interval of the Kent between overhauls, and either will be far cheaper to buy and race than the Kent. I applaud Ford for bringing in the Duratec, but let's not pretend that the Duratec has some measurable superiority over the Fit. Moreover, the Honda Fit is smaller than the Kent and will fit in all existing chassis, while the Duratec...by Ford's own admission...will not.

Now you can say the same thing about the Honda except for one thing & that is that HONDA MUST WIN TO SUCCEED, THEY MUST BEAT THE KENT. With 2 Ford engines Ford wins all the time & so do the competitors in Formula Ford.

Oh, baloney! It is naive in the extreme to believe that FF owners will buy into ANY engine program that admits one engine at a performance disadvantage compared to another. Just look at Formula Continental. The ONLY engine program that will work for Ford, Honda, Kia, VW or Hyundai is for any engine to have a chance to win. And that means an accepted hp and tq curve to match, whether it is Ford or any other source.

I still ask the same question: Ford has supplied nearly 10,000 Formula Ford engines for nearly 3 decades at very modest costs, how many engines has Honda supplied to anyone in SCCA racing at any cost? Thanks ... Jay Novak

Jay, by Ford's own admission it is only 5000 to 7000 engines, and that's spread over more than 40 years, so please don't "round up" to 10,000 engines. That said, where have you been...hiding in F500? Honda supply hundreds of engines in GT Lites, Touring, Showroom Stock and Improved Touring...FAR more than Ford. And with a comprehensive contingency program that puts Ford to shame. Believe me, brother, you don't want to go there...

[John LaRue]

Correct me if I am wrong, but as I recall when we (advisory committee) looked into the Duratec several years ago it was run in a seperate class from the Kent. Assuming this is in fact correct there has been no effort to sync the performance of the two engines. (Isn't the Duratec about 10HP more than the Kent/FIT?) I also seem to recall that there were several internal modifications being made to the Duratec including the installation of a different cam; it was not an out of the box program.

If there is support for bringing the Duratec on line then there should be absolutely no opposition to the FIT. This is not so much of an issue as to what new engine (Honda or Duratec) but whether we bring in anything other than the exisiting Kent and Cortina. As for Ford not caring which engine would prevail.....bs. If you argue that then it should not matter to Honda; Ford would have as much interest in selling new engines as would Honda.

As far as I am concerned this Honda/Duratec discussion is simply putting on line Stan's class structuring proposal that was aimed to insure the continued growth of the class as engines come and go.

Personally I hope the BOD either votes this up or down; any delay will only hurt the class as did the mucking around with the Zetec performance in FC. If we vote down the Honda proposal then we should not consider any other engine proposals. Indecison is the biggest problem in SCCA.

John

[Stan Clayton]

Isn't the Duratec about 10HP more than the Kent/FIT?

No, according to the press release the US version of the Duratec 1600 FF engine will have 108.5 hp and 110 tq. That's a bit less than a Kent or Fit.

[Marty Nygard]

1 Horsepower = 1.0139 Pferdestarke (PS) thus 110 PS = 108.5 HP

[John LaRue]

Yes, I saw those numbers in the press release; I was referring to the configuration in which the engine has actually been run in the UK and/or AU; or is this something completely different?

[Stan Clayton]

So, are we to presume that English horses are stronger than German horses?

(Breaks out popcorn... )

[Stan Clayton]

Yes, I saw those numbers in the press release; I was referring to the configuration in which the engine has actually been run in the UK and/or AU; or is this something completely different?

From the press release it is the same engine that is running at 155 hp in the "new" Formula Ford in the UK, Europe and Oz, only detuned to replace/supplement the Kent in "vintage" Formula Ford in those countries.

I am told by impeccable sources that the intake and exhausts are different between the two versions. The 110 PS version has smaller intake runners and TB, and a spec, small runner exhaust manifold...probably cast. It's basically a choked down 155 hp version.

[TimW]

So, are we to presume that English horses are stronger than German horses?

(Breaks out popcorn... )

Presume?? Shouldn't we objectively verify the claim? And pretty sure no one should pay for that...

[John Merriman]

Right, the Duratec never ran in the same class as Kent across the pond...nor in Australia. Ford, as a manufacturer, and the rules makers there are sensible enough to realize that "parity" is a complete myth - either hugely difficult or entirely impossible to achieve. The only reasons "parity" continues to be part of this discussion are: 1) The new guys want to ride in and "be what FF1600 has been for 40 years" 2) They don't want to "upset" everybody by simply saying that their new engine will relegate the Kent to history - and over not all that long a time either. and 3) While "change" may be a great idea, what is this sort of change doing to the quite remarkable stability that FF now enjoys?

So this shouldn't be a Kent vs Honda debate when you think about it. Hey, I see the validity in the idea of a new hi-tech engined-open wheel class and anyone looking at the hundreds ( thousands? ) of posts here - many showing very enthusiatic support - can see the idea has great and valuable benefits. Who the heck can deny that? But, good lord, why not just be realistic, for cryin' out loud, and recognize that the two classes can be separate, run in the same race group and then transition so that the new class is the National class and Kent cars are still seen in droves in Regional competition. (how this would all work with new hi-tech engines from both Ford and Honda, I'm not sure)

Within a year or two, the winning cars will ALL be new, super-duper designs being developed right now and they will ALL have the new hi-tech engines in them. Do you really think that, in a few years when a new hi-tech engined "F" class car wins the RunOffs that it will be in a five, ten or fifteen year old chassis? 'Fraid not.

[Bill Steele]

Right, the Duratec never ran in the same class as Kent across the pond...nor in Australia. Ford, as a manufacturer, and the rules makers there are sensible enough to realize that "parity" is a complete myth - either hugely difficult or entirely impossible to achieve. The only reasons "parity" continues to be part of this discussion are: 1) The new guys want to ride in and "be what FF1600 has been for 40 years" 2) They don't want to "upset" everybody by simply saying that their new engine will relegate the Kent to history - and over not all that long a time either. and 3) While "change" may be a great idea, what is this sort of change doing to the quite remarkable stability that FF now enjoys?

So this shouldn't be a Kent vs Honda debate when you think about it. Hey, I see the validity in the idea of a new hi-tech engined-open wheel class and anyone looking at the hundreds ( thousands? ) of posts here - many showing very enthusiatic support - can see the idea has great and valuable benefits. Who the heck can deny that? But, good lord, why not just be realistic, for cryin' out loud, and recognize that the two classes can be separate, run in the same race group and then transition so that the new class is the National class and Kent cars are still seen in droves in Regional competition. (how this would all work with new hi-tech engines from both Ford and Honda, I'm not sure)

Within a year or two, the winning cars will ALL be new, super-duper designs being developed right now and they will ALL have the new hi-tech engines in them. Do you really think that, in a few years when a new hi-tech engined "F" class car wins the RunOffs that it will be in a five, ten or fifteen year old chassis? 'Fraid not.

The irony of all of these parity arguments is the problem is not in policing the output of one of these new engines, the problem is picking which Kent you want to use as the benchmark. Is it the average Regional 110HP Kent, the competitive Regional Kent at 113HP, the cutting edge Regional Kent at 115HP or one of the killer engines Arnie or Jay or Rollin et al. might supply to a front row potential Runoff's driver, which is well north of 117HP. We don't have parity now, so yeah, parity will be hard to achieve.

As for the notion that some new killer chassis is going to emerge to dominate the class. As long as the chassis rules remain constant (no carbon tubs, etc), the parity we have in chassis competitiveness is not going to change. A new Piper or Citation clearly can be developed to be the equal of the 18 year old DB6, but they are not running away from it. That will likely not change.

[Michial Shumate]

So as Looked at my row of Formula Fords, 2008 Piper , 32 Crossle and Titan Mk6.
I thought what have I done for Ford PR Department . None of my cars have a big FORD BlUE OVAL. I only have the SCCA required FF. In my opinion I have not promoted the brand FORD racing my ff. I would have to say that the majority of our cars are the same as mine. I have not earned the right to throw stones at FORD. You that have done everything you could, FORD on your Cars , FORD on your Chevy Trucks, FORD on your Trailers, and FORD on your uniforms. Go right ahead and throw.

Now if you want to talk HONDA. I have been a dealer since 1993 both in Cars and Motorcycles. But first I would recommend you reading "Arrogance and Acoord".

Give Ford a Chance, maybe we should show them what we can do for them.
That is how sponsorship works!!

Michial Shumate

[Tom Valet]

So as Looked at my row of Formula Fords, 2008 Piper , 32 Crossle and Titan Mk6.
I thought what have I done for Ford PR Department . None of my cars have a big FORD BlUE OVAL. I only have the SCCA required FF. In my opinion I have not promoted the brand FORD racing my ff. I would have to say that the majority of our cars are the same as mine. I have not earned the right to throw stones at FORD. You that have done everything you could, FORD on your Cars , FORD on your Chevy Trucks, FORD on your Trailers, and FORD on your uniforms. Go right ahead and throw.

Now if you want to talk HONDA. I have been a dealer since 1993 both in Cars and Motorcycles. But first I would recommend you reading "Arrogance and Acoord".

Give Ford a Chance, maybe we should show them what we can do for them.
That is how sponsorship works!!

Michial Shumate

You're kidding, right? Perhaps I missed the part where Ford actually supported the class in any way at any time for the past 30 years that would have merited anyone carrying their name on their car in return for that support.

On the other hand, the class has continued to be known as Formula Ford, despite zero support from Ford. I ask again, if the name Formula Ford has had no intrinsic value for Ford over all these years, why all of a sudden now that Honda is on the scene has Ford woken up and realized that they need to protect this class by retaining a Ford only-engine rule? The name Formula Ford has and continues to be an asset to Ford even if only in a small way in their overall marketing scheme.

I own an F-150, my son has a Mustang and I have a Ford crate engine in my Cobra replica. I am not anti-Ford. But they deserve to be treated harshly for the lack of support for all these years. More importantly, they do not deserve any special treatment at this point precisely because of their lack of support over the years.

[Art Smith]

"The ONLY engine program that will work for Ford, Honda, Kia, VW or Hyundai is for any engine to have a chance to win. And that means an accepted hp and tq curve to match, whether it is Ford or any other source."


so if "accepted hp and tq curves" are the cornerstone of the house of cards being proposed/discussed, where are the approved or if not approved at least envisioned curves?? the potential alternate engine doesn't exist, the part numbers required for compliance verification don't exit, there's no independent test data, ....................... surely something about this proposition is real??

trust carefully screened and selected knowledgeable suppliers, verify everything, AND assure objectively verifiable rules are in place before putting the club's good name and FF community at risk!

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Stan Clayton]

- where are the approved or if not approved at least envisioned curves??

Supplied to the CRB by Quicksilver as part of the Honda package. Moreover, final dyno runs to establish the restrictor size and mapping with production parts will be personally observed by Dave Gomberg from the CRB.

- the potential alternate engine doesn't exist

Wrong. The first potential alternate engine has logged hundreds of test miles with numerous National Champion-caliber drivers.

- the part numbers required for compliance verification don't exit

Wrong. More than twice as many parts for the Fit are defined by part number and physical attributes than on the Kent. In fact, the Fit is now the most tightly defined engine in the Club.

- there's no independent test data

Wrong. The testing at Quicksilver is being done under observation by the CRB, who are not in any way beholden to HPD.

- trust carefully screened and selected knowledgeable suppliers, verify everything, AND assure objectively verifiable rules are in place before putting the club's good name and FF community at risk!

This is being done with the Fit to a degree never before done in the Club, Art, but your continual screaming from the rooftops that FF is being given over to HPD is turning your very name into a joke at the upper levels of the Club. Tone it back just a notch, Art, and regain contact with common sense.

[Art Smith]

"Supplied to the CRB by Quicksilver as part of the Honda package."

are they a National secret?? are they marked Secret? ... Private Data?? ...Not for public disclosure??? how does anyone match a secret? do the curves the club intends to use as a standard if this insanity is approved belong to the club or a sole source supplier?? in the aerospace industry sole source suppliers have been known to decide it's not in their financial interest to sell their sole source hardware to competitors. has the club any similar experience in the amateur racing sanctioning business???

if it unfortunately comes to pass, I for one would be far more comfortable with a minimum of two other National engine builders in attendance! it's my view there's a big difference with people that do it for a living ..................

"Wrong. The first potential alternate engine has logged hundreds of test miles with numerous National Champion-caliber drivers."

has a prototype been tested or production configuration serial number 1?? if in fact a production configuration item has been tested, why haven't the part numbers and test data been made available?? granted there were no size references in the pictures, but the engine in the DB-1 in the initial marketing pictures looked different from the engine in the back of the Citation chassis photographed at the 40th................................

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Steve Ferner]

WOW that sure is a lot of testing. Maybe even more than a two day weekend. No need to actually run the 5,000 miles that are claimed before power drops off.

Oh Boy........ that is the most comprehensive testing program imaginable. It has been on one dyno and has run in one car. Is this correct?

Steve

[Stan Clayton]

are they a National secret?? are they marked Secret? ... Private Data?? ...Not for public disclosure??? how does anyone match a secret? do the curves the club intends to use as a standard if this insanity is approved...

Goodbye Art. Have fun living in la-la land.

[Wren]

"Supplied to the CRB by Quicksilver as part of the Honda package."

are they a National secret?? are they marked Secret? ... Private Data?? ...Not for public disclosure???

the curves were shown months ago.
..................

[Jnovak]

- This is being done with the Fit to a degree never before done in the Club, Art, but your continual screaming from the rooftops that FF is being given over to HPD is turning your very name into a joke at the upper levels of the Club. Tone it back just a notch, Art, and regain contact with common sense.

Continual screaming Stan? "me thinks thou doth protest too much, Stan"
(slight paraphrasing required)

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Wren]

in the aerospace industry sole source suppliers have been known to decide it's not in their financial interest to sell their sole source hardware to competitors.
Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

the aerospace industry and government acquisitions have nothing to do with a nonprofit volunteer based, member run club. The sooner you understand that, the sooner you can stop raving about things that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

[Stan Clayton]

Art protesting to the point of absurdity, and his repeated denial of objectively verifiable fact is what has led to his name being considered a joke, Jay. Not protestations of mine.

I think I've pretty much said what I'm going to say until word of the BoD vote comes out.

[Gboy]

Oh . Thank God .

[dc]

Guys, can we cool it for a while? On BOTH sides! Nothing more is going to be said before the vote today, and one way or the other, nothing said here is going to matter to the BoD. Let it go.

• The Honda is either allowed in the class or it is not.

• Ford will either produce a new Kent block, or it won't.

• Ford will figure out how to put a Duratec into US cars, or they won't.

Regardless of what happens, it's too late to turn back now, so we'll all have to live with it. Let's focus on the future of the class and not dwell on the minutia of the problems with every possible path taken. Bickering about it here, at this point, does nothing but make everyone look like deranged mental patients.

[Daryl DeArman]

deleted---wasn't throwing more fuel on any fires....just read Doug's post.

[Greg Mercurio]

It's good to know that the ONLY thing this class lacks is passion.