Ford proposal to the SCCA

[TimW]

[QUOTE=stonebridge20;231005]

. My only focus here is as a current FF driver and what I think is best for the class as someone that has been around as an active driver for 25 years.

Thats a nice high horse to stand on Mike, but the reality its about as valid a reason for me to believe your position as Honda's position that they want to improve the class with low cost engines for the betterment of the class, regardless of how long they've been involved. Its both PR speak. Everyone, and I mean every one has something at stake. No one is naive enough to believe an argument based solely on altruistic positions, but yet they still keep coming out. Its getting rather tiring and frankly worse than cable news.

[Wren]

My suggestion that the BOD may be worried about "egg on their face" stems from the fact that you have a vocal group of FF owners who are divided on the subject of the FIT.
Within days of making their annoucement, Ford re-enters the fray and complicates the process.
This is very much a damm if you do and damm if you don't type of situation.
Whatever Fords intentions the BOD cannot afford to send them packing without fair review.
They are too powerful of a corporate entity.
Greg Kokolus
NCF #30

I agree that there will be people unhappy no matter what.

Ford deserves to be heard when they have something of substance to hear. To just shut Ford out would be wrong and would not be following the rules making procedure. I'm not sure they are that powerful of a corporate entity. FF hasn't been on their radar for decades and they are working pretty hard to keep their head above water.

[Bill Steele]

I think it is great news Ford has committed to do a run of Kent blocks. The Ford Kent engine will be running in various FF, CF and Vintage venues for decades to come. Good for Ford.

The only paragraph I have a problem with in Ford's letter, besides referring to Formula Ford in SCCA as a "series", one thing it isn't is a "series"; but I digress, my only problem is the paragraph asking the BoD to keep Formula Ford an all Ford "series".

I am all for Ford proposing and SCCA doing everything it its power to get through the process the new Duratech 1600 as another alternative engine. There is no reason why we can't have the Kent, the Fit and the new Duratech as engine choices.

What I don't think is wise is to shut Honda down, just because Ford has decided FF needs a new engine and they want it to be a Ford. I totally agree with Ford that FF needs a new engine, in fact, I think it could use a couple of new engines. I sure hope a Ford Duratech is one of the options.

[Stan Clayton]

Instead of challenging Jay's statements about Ford's intent to begin recasting new blocks and to bring the Duratec 1600 to FF, let's just take him...and Ford...at their word.

After all, Ford has (separately to this document) identified an on-going industrial market need as well as the 'worldwide vintage motorsports' market as justification to cast new blocks. As much as Ford might wish for all those thousands of forklifts and other users of the industrial version to upgrade to a current engine, they can't do so economically. The new engine won't physically bolt up and in many case simply won't fit. Ergo, there is a market.

Same with the Duratec 1600. Ford uses this engine in FF world-wide ALREADY. Why scoff at the notion that at long last, under threat of invasion from the east......Ford might actively participate in bringing it here? Sounds reasonable to me. But that doesn't change the fact that every criticism that has been applied to the Fit will apply to the Duratec.

Mike Agnafilo, you have been vocally critical of Honda's foray into FF, what do you say to that reality? I'd like to read a coherent response from you on these pages. You know what I'm talking about...how about it?

And Greg Mercurio, you continue to make claims that this 'rules creep' will damage the class. How so? A new FF engine already costs north of $14,000. How will an engine that costs much less than that, lasts 2-5 times as long between cheaper overhauls, and accurately mimics the hp and tq curves of the Kent damage the class? And how does that constitute 'rules creep'?

[Tom Valet]

Stan,

All good points, but I have one issue. It has been stated repeatedly here that the Duratec engine in use in other countries will not ft into the majority of the FF chassis in use in the United States. If Ford is proposing to use that engine here as an alternative to the Fit, it solves nothing and in fact creates more problems than it solves, especially if the Honda proposal is rejected in favor of accepting Ford's proposal.

So, is the Duratec the engine they are proposing and if so will it fit into our cars?

Thanks

Tom

[S Lathrop]

I am glad that I am not the one facing the vote that the BOD has to make in this situation.

I am looking as six possible projects involving the Fit engine. 30% of those projects will represent new drivers in FF racing. I am a very small player in the FF game so I suspect that the actual market is way bigger than my few projects.

1994 was the last time I built any FFs. In recent years I have sent out 7 new chassis and only one is a possible FF. In short there has not been any FF business for new cars in 15 years, other than the occasional car.

If the BOD tables the Honda proposal, I will bet that the proposal will be with drawn.

The only thing Ford is promising is a continuation of the status quo. New Ford Kent engines will be just as expensive and good ones just as hard to get. Assuming that Ford can find a modern engine that will not require all new cars (as the English FF deal did), we are looking at 1 to 2 years to get to the point we are at with the Honda deal today.

If the Honda deal goes South, I will be sad to loose the business but it won't put me out of business.

[racer27]

One of the advantages I see in the Honda proposal is the fact that the Honda Motor will fit into many of our chassis.

The Duratec looses alot of it's appeal to me if it does not fit into the existing Ford Powered cars. I don't want to buy a new car, or do major re-enginnering just to take advantage of the "Duratec" option. An option, I've not seen put forth in writting.

[nulrich]

The engine they are proposing is probably the 1.6 liter Duratec introduced in the Formula Ford National series in 2006 in the UK. That series is so competitive the chassis are updated every year or two, so I'm not sure if anyone has tried to fit the Duratec into an older car.

In the UK the Formula Ford National series is heavily supported by Ford Motor Company. Ford engineers write the rules, support the cars at the race track, and handle scrutineering. The cars are very different from SCCA Formula Fords.

It's a professional racing series and there are seven constructors. I'm not sure engine costs are a big worry for any of the teams.

Nathan

[Art Smith]

And how does that constitute 'rules creep'?

the potential alternate engine supplier is in charge of configuration control of their engine as raced. the corporation is known for winning and there's no marketing value for "participating" while getting beat by a time proven and developed competitor's engine. IF the alternate engines are actually started at someone's idea of a 115 HPc Kent's horsepower and torque curve, how long before the whining starts? how long before there's a "production line change" or two that gets immediate use AND just happens to make more power/torque?? how long before an initial part number is superseded ???

formula's with one engine mean the same rules apply to everyone equally with no whining and no dependence on politicians to make informed balanced decisions for the benefit of the members and not the involved suppliers who may or may not be doing business with Enterprises..................

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Stan Clayton]

So, is the Duratec the engine they are proposing and if so will it fit into our cars?

Tom, I understand that yes, they will be proposing to bring the Duratec into FF. As to whether it will fit all existing chassis, I would speculate that the answer is no. Or at least not without major surgery in some cases. The Duratec 1600 is based on the same engine in 2.0 and 2.3 (and soon 2.5) liter versions, so presumably it shares the same basic form factor as those other versions. And in fact I have read on UK FF websites that it will not fit older chassis.

OTOH, if you have a Piper chassis, which accepts anything from a Zetec to a Kent, it will surely fit without any issues.

[stonebridge20]

[QUOTE]

Mike Agnafilo, you have been vocally critical of Honda's foray into FF, what do you say to that reality? I'd like to read a coherent response from you on these pages. You know what I'm talking about...how about it?

Stan, I don't understand your question. What could I possibly explain any more than I already have?

[Stan Clayton]

Stan, I don't understand your question. What could I possibly explain any more than I already have?

I'm talking about the Duratec engine Ford intends to propose to SCCA. What is your position on that proposal, and how do you address all the criticisms you have leveled at Honda wrt to the Duratec?

[Stan Clayton]

the potential alternate engine supplier is in charge of configuration control of their engine as raced.

No, they are not. Honda have specifically stated that they wish to keep the Fit approved in its 'current production version', but SCCA will control each and every specific change. SCCA is NOT granting Honda control over their engine in the class. Moreover, SCCA will control the map and the restrictor size to ensure parity.

IF the alternate engines are actually started at someone's idea of a 115 HPc Kent's horsepower and torque curve, how long before the whining starts?

As we learned to do with the Zetec in FC, the Club will make changes as needed to ensure good parity. Will it be perfect? No, but it isn't now in the class.

formula's with one engine mean the same rules apply to everyone equally

That might be true, but it doesn't apply to FF, where there are already TWO engines approved.

[stonebridge20]

I'm talking about the Duratec engine Ford intends to propose to SCCA. What is your position on that proposal, and how do you address all the criticisms you have leveled at Honda wrt to the Duratec?

Ok,...That's an easy one. I have not seen a specific, in writing proposal from Ford on the Duratec or even if that's the engine that they would propose as you just stated on speculation. When I see something in writing, chances are you'll get my $.02

[Stan Clayton]

Ok,...That's an easy one. I have not seen a specific, in writing proposal from Ford on the Duratec or even if that's the engine that they would propose as you just stated on speculation. When I see something in writing, chances are you'll get my $.02

Nice evasion, Mike. Chicken...

[stonebridge20]

Nice evasion, Mike. Chicken...

It's not evasion Stan. It's fact. I have not seen any specific plan from Ford yet.

As far as being "chicken" You obviously don't know me very well.

[RoadHazard]

In return for the commitment outlined above, we respectively ask the SCCA Board of Directors...

I think he means "respectfully." Good thing he's a director and not a diplomat.

Hey, I'm all for putting the Ford back in Formula Ford. But it's gonna take more than Henry's name to keep me happy and racing. If Honda's actions woke them up, great. But what matters is who delivers. Honda appears to be way ahead of Ford on this. If Ford catches up, great. But I'm not giving either company any special treatment just because of the name over the door.

[RoadHazard]

I am looking as six possible projects involving the Fit engine. 30% of those projects will represent new drivers in FF racing.

How do you get 30% of six? My calculator says that's 1.8. Maybe one of the kids is really short?

[S Lathrop]

How do you get 30% of six? My calculator says that's 1.8. Maybe one of the kids is really short?

2/6*100 = 33.333333333333333333333333333333%. Please excuse my imprecission.

[John LaRue]

Looking back to probably 2000 when crankshafts were unavailable we did go to Ford. Specifically I went to Ford through a law partner of mine who had been a VP at Ford and was tightly associated with Roush. We got no where with Ford depsite having the ear of some people high up on the food chain but we did receive some decent advice from Roush. I eventually went to my old friend Joe Lunati who put together a contact to have the cranks produced.

John

[Larry]

1. When will new blocks be ready?
2. How much will they be?
3. What's the contingency plan?

The Ford letter lacks substance! It is about as committal as "maybe." The CRC should thank Ford for their interest, welcome their return to FF racing, and extend their hopes that they can compete with the newly-approved Fit engine!

Larry Oliver

[Roland V. Johnson]

I have an idea. How about we have a class called Formula Ford for Kent 1600 powered cars, and another class called ??? for a Honda/Ford war........Naaaaa too logical! Thanks for the new block to Ford, it's been in the works for a while. P.S. A long lasting spec tire would be nice in both classes!

[Rene Gimenez]

There are regional organizations we can run with NOW that support FF and would likely remain supporters of the Kent motor. The only component missing is a national championship.

Here's a scenario....SCCA takes the Fit into FF. All of the Kent proponents align with another national sanctioning body and have a parallel series with their own national championship WITH SUPPORT from Ford. Kind of like IRL vs. CART. If that were to happen, it would be truly interesting to see the size of the fields.

[Jnovak]

Jay - what's your relation/involvement to Ford as a company? Employee? Racer? etc?

Mike, I retired from Ford in 2007 after 29 years with the company. For 8 of those years I worked at Ford Racing. 1st as a chassis technical specialist in the racing engineering department & then as the NASCAR Manager. I quit Ford Racing in 2002 to move back to product engineering so that I could have a family life.

I am still, occasionally, in contact with people in the Ford Racing department. I got involved in discussions about the future of Formula Ford after the 40th Bday party. Ford Racing upper management was not aware of the Honda proposal until I called on the Tuesday after the Sprints & I have been in fairly regular contact since that time. I am not a paid consultant or an employee of Ford Racing. They do know of my long involvement with the club & have asked me to be informally involved by helping with understanding some of the SCCA processes & occasionally communicating some information to the membership. That said, I have a great loyalty to Ford and I would like them to be involved in the future of Formula Ford & will do what I can to assist in that effort.

I realize that many people feel that Ford has let them down as Formula Ford racers. I do agree that Ford has not promoted Formula Ford in the US for some time. This is a complex issue in that Ford of Europe has promoted Formula Ford significantly for decades. The support from Ford of Europe is because they work HAND in HAND with the sanctioning bodies in Europe & these sanctionig bodies co-operate with Ford in an effort to promote both the racing & Ford Motor Company. This kind of common interest working relationship has not existed with the SCCA for about 25 years & I can guarantee you that Ford made several approaches to the SCCA over the years but to little or no avail. However, one thing I am certain of is that Formula Ford would not have survived as a world wide racing class without the tremendous support of the Ford Motor Company & this is a fact of life.

Ford Racing US has tried to get more involved with "grassroots racing" in the US. As an example, in 1998 I was sent to England for 2 weeks to discuss with Ford Racing of England, their business relationship with the various sanctioning bodies that Ford Racing dealt with. I spent a great deal of time with members of Ford Racing discussing how to expand Ford USA's support of racing in the USA such that it would benefit both the racers and Ford Motor Company. . When I returned there was much internal discussion as to how to proceed & I know FOR CERTAIN that there was contact betewwn Ford Racing upper management & the management of the SCCA. I frankly do not know the details of the conversations as I was not directly involved, however I do know that I was told that we would not be "wasteing our time & money dealing with the SCCA". Now the fact is that the SCCA is to a great extent a much different organization than it was in 1998 & they have a MUCH greater interest in marketing now than they did then.

The real fact of the matter is that opportunities were missed by both organizations.

I have said enough & I will not be making additional posts on this subject.

Thanks for hearing me out ... Jay Novak

[Roland V. Johnson]

Thanks for your efforts Jay!

[swiftdrivr]

While I like the tradition and history of formula ford, it isn't the name on the engine plate that made this such a great class. It was a relativly inexpensive, highly durable engine in a full-on race car, encouraging large fields of drivers in equal cars. The cars have rarely been equal, it's true, but that encouraged builder participation. I don't care what the engine plate says as long as it meets the above criteria and helps us get back to the outcome of large fields of drivers in equal cars. I doubt turning down a solid proposal from Honda in favor of a vague promise from Ford makes much since, and I see no reason either should be turned down. We should simply decline to limit the class to Ford products, but encourage them to join in. If they want it to be a Ford series, they can simply provide a better product at a better price. They already have tradition on their side.

[Mark_Silverberg]

I want to clear up a few things that were said and correct a few statements that have been made in this thread. As I have mentioned previously I have also had some connection to Ford Racing but have been somewhat reluctant because I now work for another automaker (not one actively involved or proposing to enter formula racing). I worked at Ford from 1990 to 2006. One of my responsiblities from 2003 to 2005 was to provide marketing research support to Ford Racing this involved projects determining the value of racing programs and strategy for performance parts. Even though I now work for another manufacturer I still hold Ford Racing in high regard.

Regardless I have a few comments:

Does a letter from a Ford Director mean this program will happen?
While I never worked with Brian Wolfe directly I have heard him speak and hold him in high regard for his technical abilities. He basically was basically at the infantcy of fuel injected 5.0L Mustang performance modifications. He is a racer to the core and does understand grass roots motorsports. I am concerned, however, that his letter was lacking in details - especially a promised date for Kent block availablity. Mose Nowland certainly is talented but this has to be a commercially viable project. In addition Ford Racing has prior reputation for announcing performance parts and showing them in the catalog when, in fact, they were not available. I sincerely am hoping for the best but at this point it is still in process.

Myth #1 - The Kent engine has been out of production for a long time and no data or drawings exist.
Well yes and no - the 1600 cc version has been out of production for a long time. It was last produced in South Africa. The SA versions had a 83 casting number which indicates that the last major design revision to the 1600 block occured in 1983. As late as the mid 90's the 1600 was still part of Ford Power Products line up being sold for industrial engines. In addition the 1300 cc version was in production as first the HCS engine and later the Endura E engine until 2002. While this is a different block it retains similar architection and bore spacing as the kent.

Myth #2 - Ford has never made any money on Formula Ford.
While it is true that Ford has probably had few production vehicle sales triggered by their involvement in Formula Ford, I can assure you that their sales of crate engines in the 80's and 90's was profitable to them. In fact, Len Pounds (Ford Racing - who was involved from the inception in the US) stated that Ford helped bring FF to the US in 1969 because of two reason - 1) a competitive reation to FV and 2) to sell engines for the class.

Myth #3 - Ford has never promoted SCCA or featured SCCA in adds.
Well, not for quite a while since the 800 lb gorilla called NASCAR has taken a lot of resources. When Ford Racing started again in the early 80's Ford was very involved in grass roots with the Ford Cup program that Mickey Matus ran. Mickey was a big sports car supporter. Unfortunately SCCA does not deliver value for involvement like high spectator (NASCAR) or high participant (Drag Racing) motorsports provides. Ford did feature some SCCA A-Sedan cars in some B-roll footage in a Mustang commercial in the early 00's. Unfortunately formula cars do not have strong manufacturer association for most main stream consumers - so they make little sense in main stream commercials.

Myth #4 - Ford supports other grass roots racing like Ford Focus Midgets.
Ford Focus Midgets was not a Ford initiated program. This was a concept which was created by Keith Iaia in CA and shopped to several manufacturers (including Honda). While Ford did put some money in the program (as well as the CA Ford dealers), there was also a revenue stream from engine sales. Ford is largely out of this program and their contract with USAC ends this year. Keith Iaia still supports existing Focus Midget Owners with parts inventory and has also developed a new 280 hp 2.4L Ecotec engine for ASCS and other Midget sanctioning bodies.

Myth #5 - Ford is involved with FF in the UK thus they should be here.
This logic is faulty - you are comparing apples to oranges. FF in the UK at the top level is probably comparable to FF2000 or the Pro Formula Mazda series in the US. In addition, there is a much wider variety of motorsports in the US than the UK. I can assure you that from a volume and profit standpoint there is far more compelling business case to be made for drag racing than road racing. Ford in the UK is involved because it is the best of options available to them.

Myth #6 - Ford is being reactionary now to the Honda request.
From the inception Ford's involvement with FF has always been reactionary - in 1969 it was in reaction to Formula Vee.

I honestly hope everything in the letter comes to pass and Ford better supports FF and SCCA in the future - but there still is a long way to go on this - and I saw many letters and pronouncements of this type in my Ford career and without hardware and firm commitment dates it is just toner - and toner is cheap.

[jivey]

The block is underway. And the real serious people, other than apex FF ones - That want to get out there and race FF, atlantics,lotuses,cortinas etc. are pumped. But other than a few of us the rest of you have already made up your mind on an unproven engine. But it doesn't matter. The rest of the world will move forward without you. ----- Thanks -- The other --Jay

PS remember the oldsmobile both in S2000 and IRL. They were going to solve everything.

[TimW]

Press release. Has fewer typos than letter.



http://media.ford.com/article_displa...ticle_id=31216

[Stan Clayton]

Good for Ford...welcome to the party!

I am a bit puzzled by that whole 'we've been working on it for the past 12 months' part, though. When were they planning to spring it on the Club?

[frank harry]

F'n A bubba . Well said .

[Jim Garry]

PS remember the oldsmobile both in S2000 and IRL. They were going to solve everything.

But in this case, if the FIT turns out to be a bust, we'll still have the Kent.

Good deal for all.

[PCalhoun]

Press release. Has fewer typos than letter.


http://media.ford.com/article_displa...ticle_id=31216

Good find Tim. It is not by accident that this announcement coincided w/ the start of the Formula Ford Festival at Brands. At today's conversion rates however, the new Duratec at 5000 GBP is approx $8100 USD!

Gib & Bushman are over there, so maybe we can have some first-hand information in the next week or two.

[Daryl DeArman]

Yeah, I'd take 3 Hondas for that price.

[Stan Clayton]

On the question of price, does that $8150 include all those items listed? If so it is a reasonably good price compared to the roughly $7000 for the same parts for the Fit, plus assembly.

[TimW]

Yeah, I'd take 3 Hondas for that price.

that would only get you 3 honda cores. Not race ready engines.

As Stan pointed out, the prices are comparable but we're still short on details...is the 5k pounds sterling assembled, dressed, dynoned & ready to install? If so, then that likely will be cheaper than the Fit for the base race ready engine. Adaptation costs obviously will vary car to car if indeed this engine can fit in existing cars. But, where is this engine in its production lifespan and how many production units will actually be constructed. Ford doesn't sell many small cars in the US anymore as Toyota, Honda & Kia have become the primary vendor of choice for the low margin cars. Ford will certainly have a product in that segment, but will it be a big enough player to have parts prevalent well after the federal mandate duration? If Ford is the vendor of choice in Europe so the worldwide volume is big enough, can those parts make it stateside down the road? The Fit has been very successful both here and worldwide total unit number wise from the trade publications I researched.

Tim

[dc]

Does anyone know if Ford or anyone else has tried to put one of these new 110hp Duratecs into any U.S. chassis? I thought the reason this engine never came here was because of the physical limitations of making it work properly in an American Formula Ford.

$8100 is great, but can it fit in our cars?

[SOseth]

Press release. Has fewer typos than letter.



http://media.ford.com/article_displa...ticle_id=31216

I would invite Ford Motorsport to install this engine into a DB-1 and present the car and the proposal to SCCA and it's membership for inspection and approval.

SteveO

[racer27]

Tim you have a valid point about how many of these cars is Ford going to sell long term in US. That dramaticially effects the number of engines avail in junkyards. 2 weeks ago I was able to find a complete '09 FIT engine, less then 300 miles, for $1450 delivered. Would of purchased it if 1) this decision was made already, 2) i knew exactly which components were needed 3)not knowing if New $2500 Honda core was a better value.

I welcome the Ford intrest in a new motor. I hope it is not geared more towards new cars vs updates. I'll wait for details to come forth, and the chassis builders/fabricators to chime in. My intrest will peak when we have a solid proposal, timeline and when it is fitted into a representitive older chassis (As Honda did). Behind the Swift DB-1, what is most common/typical car out there? Mid 90's VD?

[TimW]

I would invite Ford Motorsport to install this engine into a DB-1 and present the car and the proposal to SCCA and it's membership for inspection and approval.

From the press release:
“The new power unit will be ideal for fitment in new chassis,..."

What is most important it seems is what is not written in that sentence...