Honda engines in FF?

[Darren Brown]

I think something needs to be cleared up on the "supposed new engine from Ford".
My only question to Andy during the call was about an alternate engine and if he had a time line they wanted to introduce an engine. He said their plan was for sourcing parts for the Kent, and if the racers wanted a new engine he would put a proposal together for the engine they use worldwide. As I understood there would be no proposal for a new engine unless the racers made it clear to him/Ford we wanted one. Did I not understand that right the other night?



Darren

[stonebridge20]

[QUOTE]

Mike, you say I have everything wrong except Ford's plans to reproduce the Kent block. What exactly am I misinformed about? Specifically...

Sorry Stan, I'm going to spit the bait back out out on this one.

As for your implication that I should stay quiet until and if a formal proposal comes out, I say bollocks! No one hesitated to excoriate Honda when rumors of them appearing at the 40th surfaced. Why should Ford get a pass on the same level of scrutiny and speculation?

Yes you should stay quiet as should I and everybody else until it's in writing. When Honda put their proposal in writing, it then got picked apart and still does today. When Ford puts their proposal in writing then we can pick that to pieces also. I don't work for Honda or Ford. I work for Formula Ford and am trying to work for the best "package" to keep both the Kent camp and the modern engine camp happy. So far from what was talked about with Ford and if it gets put on paper, I feel they have more to offer the class than Honda does. The Honda proposal only makes the modern engine camp happy. The Ford "proposal" may make both camps happy. Do we owe Ford anything for coming in at the 11th hour as some have said? NO! Do we owe it to the class to at least look at what they are offering prior to the Honda vote? Absolutely!

Thanks, Mike (Insert yellow happy face here)

[John Robinson II]

So Mike, are you saying that only a motor from ford will make both camps happy?

Darren, I think you are correct. But he did expound on the "one Ford" theme also applying to FF. Something along the lines of the world wide fiesta being a logical choice.

The only commitment that came out was, that even if the Honda proposal goes through they will still produce blocks as it will be a source of revenue.

John

[Rennie Clayton]

Do we owe it to the class to at least look at what they are offering prior to the Honda vote? Absolutely!

Mike,

The two proposals can be evaluated separately on their own merits, there is no need to "wait" on Ford's proposal so that we can vote on the Honda business. They are not mutually exclusive. An approval of Honda's proposal does not mean Ford must withdraw theirs and forever be banished from FF. Who does waiting benefit, other than Ford's internal business case processes?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that Honda has spurred Ford into action. But they should catch up on their own here with something other than giving SCCA FF competitors the sloppy seconds from the industrial / vintage market to run in their cars, IMO.


Cheers,
Rennie

[Clyde]

In MY opinion, most of the F/F drivers are missing the point "Winners do what losers won't". For instance, data to tell you how to drive, if you do not know how deep to drive you should lose! Now you are interested in an engine that needs no tuning, the ECU will take care of that; what is next? ride height. When C. Capman & J. Russel and others started F/F it was an ENTRY LEVEL formula to get drivers started, if you want to spend money, go to another class! Maybe there just is not enough drivers around that enjoy "Tinkering" with their racecars. I have witnessed many drivers that enjoy "tinkering" and they were happy and many were FAST! Fahan, Kovacs, Foschi, Agnifilo, Mercep, Andersen. I have been witnessing racers in F/F since 1971 BUT now there seems to be a different breed, I, for one, miss the driver that enjoys racing AND "tinkering". In closing I feel that an entry level, Affordable, formula car class must be kept and protected from the driver that wants to spend money to win. Spend money in a faster class and leave entry level alone.

[Matt King]

In closing I feel that an entry level, Affordable, formula car class must be kept and protected from the driver that wants to spend money to win. Spend money in a faster class and leave entry level alone.

Your rant does not seem to jibe with the concept of $14K "new" Kent engines and $5K rebuilds. I thought it was an entry level class for people who don't want to spend money?

[John Merriman]

It's too late Clyde.

[stonebridge20]

Mike,

The two proposals can be evaluated separately on their own merits, there is no need to "wait" on Ford's proposal so that we can vote on the Honda business. They are not mutually exclusive. An approval of Honda's proposal does not mean Ford must withdraw theirs and forever be banished from FF. Who does waiting benefit, other than Ford's internal business case processes?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that Honda has spurred Ford into action. But they should catch up on their own here with something other than giving SCCA FF competitors the sloppy seconds from the industrial / vintage market to run in their cars, IMO.


Cheers,
Rennie

Rennie, Yes the two proposals should be evaluated on their own merits completely. Then a decision from the FF community should be made for what's best for our class. If the Honda is voted in prior to evaluating what Ford is offering then we are locked into a situation that may not be what's best for the class as a whole and no way to get out of it. An engine war between Ford and Honda is not what the class needs. Waiting on Fords proposal only benifits us, the Formula Ford community! Trust me, I don't own any Ford stock!

Now, voting in any engine which has been on one dyno only, to verify manufacturer published "numbers" is a disservice to the class and a whole different argument!

[stonebridge20]

Your rant does not seem to jibe with the concept of $14K "new" Kent engines and $5K rebuilds. I thought it was an entry level class for people who don't want to spend money?

Matt, If your paying $14K for Kent engines and $5K to rebuild them, you better get another builder or check your shipping cost a little closer

[Jnovak]

I am not a member of the Formula Ford community but I have been a member of the SCCA for 41 years. In the very beginning of FF I built a couple of engines for friends but have never been a competitor in FF.

When I was at the 40th Bday event I was absolutely thrilled to see the tremendous history on display & I spent way to many hours looking at the many variants of Formula Fords. I love the history that we all saw there. My respect for Formula Ford & those who race in the class is very large.

Now, that sentiment aside, the only place in the world where the Kent engine is still in constant use (other than vintage racing) is in SCCA racing in the US. I think that one of the reasons that Formula Ford is no longer the non-winged training class that it used to be (in the US) is because that the world has passed us by. Modern brand new Formula Fords are being constructed EVERY SINGLE DAY in England & Europe & they all use BRAND NEW Ford engines.

Now, I am not against Honda or their efforts & I am sad that it took Honda's proposal to get Ford Racing off of their butts. I am certain that Ford's committment to Formula Ford is very significant & of very long standing value. In the last couple of years Ford has managed to get a brand new common engine approved for racing in England & Europe. This was not done without a long term committment to the entire concept of Formula Ford.

I apologize if I am offending any of my MANY Formula Ford friends but change is due & is needed. I ask all of you who are serious competitors in Formula Ford to think about what Formua Ford needs to survive another 20 years & I think the answer will be change.

Respectfully ... Jay Novak

[SOseth]

I am not a member of the Formula Ford community but I have been a member of the SCCA for 41 years. In the very beginning of FF I built a couple of engines for friends but have never been a competitor in FF.

When I was at the 40th Bday event I was absolutely thrilled to see the tremendous history on display & I spent way to many hours looking at the many variants of Formula Fords. I love the history that we all saw there. My respect for Formula Ford & those who race in the class is very large.

Now, that sentiment aside, the only place in the world where the Kent engine is still in constant use (other than vintage racing) is in SCCA racing in the US. I think that one of the reasons that Formula Ford is no longer the non-winged training class that it used to be (in the US) is because that the world has passed us by. Modern brand new Formula Fords are being constructed EVERY SINGLE DAY in England & Europe & they all use BRAND NEW Ford engines.

Now, I am not against Honda or their efforts & I am sad that it took Honda's proposal to get Ford Racing off of their butts. I am certain that Ford's committment to Formula Ford is very significant & of very long standing value. In the last couple of years Ford has managed to get a brand new common engine approved for racing in England & Europe. This was not done without a long term committment to the entire concept of Formula Ford.

I apologize if I am offending any of my MANY Formula Ford friends but change is due & is needed. I ask all of you who are serious competitors in Formula Ford to think about what Formua Ford needs to survive another 20 years & I think the answer will be change.

Respectfully ... Jay Novak

My question is, what is Ford's committment?

SteveO

[Jnovak]

My question is, what is Ford's committment?

SteveO

Good question Steve; In Europe Ford Racing partially funds several championship events such as the Festival in England. They also supply very low cost engine packages to all engine tuners & builders as well as having small contingency funds in several countries. Much support also comes from local dealer networks so that the cost of this support is spread out. Ford also supported the technical development of the new engine package for Formula Ford in England/Europe. I know that it was/is their intent to have common worldwide rules if possible.

"Club" racing is actually quite popular on the other side of the Atlantic & for this reason dealer networks are supportive of racing in general. Ford contributes to a dealer advertising fund & the dealers can then use these funds for various advertising efforts. In England/Europe racing is considered a valid advertising venue.

Also a question to you Steve; What kind of committment do you want from a manufacturer such as Ford or Honda?

Thanks ... Jay

[Larry]

Steve,

To the best of my knowledge, Ford's commitment to FF in the United States for 2009 was 0. I expect them to double that amount next year.

Larry Oliver

[Wren]

Does Ford have a modern engine that fits in a current chassis?

[SOseth]

Good question Steve; In Europe Ford Racing partially funds several championship events such as the Festival in England. They also supply very low cost engine packages to all engine tuners & builders as well as having small contingency funds in several countries. Much support also comes from local dealer networks so that the cost of this support is spread out. Ford also supported the technical development of the new engine package for Formula Ford in England/Europe. I know that it was/is their intent to have common worldwide rules if possible.

"Club" racing is actually quite popular on the other side of the Atlantic & for this reason dealer networks are supportive of racing in general. Ford contributes to a dealer advertising fund & the dealers can then use these funds for various advertising efforts. In England/Europe racing is considered a valid advertising venue.

Also a question to you Steve; What kind of committment do you want from a manufacturer such as Ford or Honda?

Thanks ... Jay

Jay;

My point really was that Honda has made a commitment by way of a legitimate proposal and a living, breathing race car. Much has been intimated about a Ford proposal, but nothing has been published yet. I'm pretty sure that this letter is into the club. What does it say?

SteveO

[Stan Clayton]

To the best of my knowledge, Ford's commitment to FF in the United States for 2009 was 0. I expect them to double that amount next year.

A new monitor, please. Mine now has coffee all over it!

[LJennings]

*

[Jnovak]

Jay;

My point really was that Honda has made a commitment by way of a legitimate proposal and a living, breathing race car. Much has been intimated about a Ford proposal, but nothing has been published yet. I'm pretty sure that this letter is into the club. What does it say?

SteveO

My point Steve is that Ford has done all that & more in England/Europe. I agree that Ford Racing USA has let it fall off the table for many years. Hopefully they will correct this for the USA in the near future.

As I said in my previous post, I am not against the Honda proposal, I want Ford to step up to the plate.

Thanks ... Jay

[Wren]

aq


Here is information from Michael Fuller - Ford Racing Australia. circa 2005

I didn't see what engine they were referencing. Duratec?

I did see 125hp in there. Can it be detuned further?

Didn't the advisory committee determine that the duratec could not be made to work in current cars/at current power levels?

Does Ford have an engine in production anywhere that would fit in a current chassis at current power levels?

[LJennings]

*

[SOseth]

My point Steve is that Ford has done all that & more in England/Europe. I agree that Ford Racing USA has let it fall off the table for many years. Hopefully they will correct this for the USA in the near future.

As I said in my previous post, I am not against the Honda proposal, I want Ford to step up to the plate.

Thanks ... Jay

Jay;

I understand that Ford is much more active with formula motorsports in Europe. Certainly Formula cars are much more popular there than here. Frankly I don't really care who comes to the table to help FF. I care more about the concept of a 115 HP non-winged real race car than the name cast on the engine. The fact is that Honda as stepped up and produced a viable, modern alternative to our current situation. No one else has, at least not in my memory. It's not surprising that this is controversial. Several years ago a number of competitors got together and tried to float the idea of getting a more modern engine into FF and they were beaten down at every turn. LaRue in fact decided that he would rather convert to a FC Zetec than deal with the Kent anymore. Contrast FF situation with the FC guys who saw a problem, got together and hammered out a reasonable assimilation program for the Zetec. What screwed the FC situation up was the advent of the aluminum head Pinto and while it's taken longer than it should have, look at the results in FC qualifying and the race at the Runoffs.

While this is entirely my own speculation there is another thing to consider. Honda has put enormous resources into this project. You are an engineer and might be able to put a dollar figure on it, I can't. Do we think they don't have a backup plan? Certainly they have already announced a pro series for these cars in 2011. If SCCA is not going to participate, I expect there are other organizations that would. I wonder how many cars that will bleed from SCCA if that happens. ( I suppose this paragraph could be construed as fear mongering...but no more so than other unsubstantiated arguments in this thread.)

I know the club is sure to not obsolete the Kent. In every discussion I have been a part of in considering new rules, whether for FF, FV, FC, whatever, the club has tried to make very sure that the status quo in the affected classes are not adversely affected. Perhaps I am so sure of this concept that I really don't understand people's objection the Honda proposal. I wonder if Ford had done this same leg-work if we would be seeing the same reaction.

My 2 cents and my opinion only.

SteveO

[Wren]

Certainly they have already announced a pro series for these cars in 2011.

Steve,

Do you have any more info on this?

[Jnovak]

Steve, when I was NASCAR manager at Ford Racing (1999 to 2003) I floated an idea to my management to get a new engine for FFord. They knew that I was heavily involved with Club Racing & kindly did not throw me out of the office. I was asked to put together a brief position paper as to how many engines would be involved, how many competitors, costs on our end & the consumer end etc. I did this & the main reaction from management was that is was a VERY tiny piece of the aftermarket performance business but that if I could show any marketing potential & that if it was better than a break even $$ position I could persue it. I took a swak at the numbers & spoke to many people at the SCCA & was informed that a new engine could never pass muster & was not really needed. End of story.

This is the basic problem with the SCCA membership. Change is not welcomed until it is nearly too late. I have never seen so much resistance to any kind of change in most classes. Hopefully this is changing.

I actually applaud Honda for the work that they have done, they did their homework & did it right. However, DO NOT THINK that they are doing this just to Keep FF alive or to benefit the racers. It is a marketing effort pure & simple & they think it is in their best business interest to do so. There is NOTHING WRONG with this, it is the way of the business world & is the correct attitude.

I think & hope that Ford will respond with a formal proposal to the SCCA, however I have been told that Ford wants to commonize the engine rules worldwide & that this is not being well received by the SCCA.

Thanks ... Jay

[S Lathrop]

Jay makes some interesting points in his last post.

I have an ear in the IRL camp and progress of the SCCA / Honda program is being watched. There is going to be a racing program with IRL that involves SCCA type cars.

My feeling and it is strictly my own interpertation of what I have heard is that Honda is trying to enhance the investment they have made in American open wheel racing. Any money they spend in this program is strictly crumbs in what they are and will spent in the IRL.

Honda and a few others have spent some real money to get the program this far, and I will bet that they will move forward with or without the SCCA.

I see too many people who want to see this happen to be stopped by any negative decission that SCCA makes. SCCA will be a part of this or they will be outsiders. This is my speculation.

Ever wonder why there are so few American drivers in the top of American open wheel racing? Having been an engineer in IPS and Indy lights for over a decade, I can tell you that the drivers from American "spec " formulas are lacking in the fundamental skills that any successful FF driver must master, race car setups. That is knowing how to evaluate shock, spring, aerodynamic, and all the other changes that one can inflict on a typical FF driver. Really fast setups are condition specific. The fast setup must be changed to respond to changing conditions. Top FF drivers learn this. This is also why the old men are so tough to beat.

In the Indy Lights series with their "spec" shocks, there are over 2,560,000 possible road racing shock setting/valving combinations. A good FF/FC driver would have a clue on how to sort through shocks but not a FE driver or someone who has only been in spec cars.

I think that some people have recognozide this and among other reasons see FF as a great place to start doing something.

[ProstWest]

. Any money they spend in this program is strictly crumbs in what they are and will spent in the IRL.

This dovetails with a point I haven't seen mentioned yet. When IRL went to spec motors a few years ago it must have freed up tens of millions of dollars that they were spending on R&D. On a larger scale, less than a year ago Honda shed more than a quarter billion from their global open-wheel racing marketing expenditure by torpedoing F1. A few million upfront cost to chip a toehold in FF now is a drop in a very big bucket. Once kits go into production, the program should be at least self-sustaining- well before IRL finally manages to ramp up an engine war again in 2012 or so (if ever).

So the financial justification, even in this downturn, may have been quite easy for them. As far as speculation that their motivation is ROI-based, keep in mind that if there is just one company in the world outside of Maranello that might be argued to see racing as an end in itself, it would be Honda. The philosphy that competition and the training ground it provides for engineers improves their road cars has been core to Soichiro-san's company since its two-wheel beginnings. Inasmuch as the marketing department capitalizes on that philosophy, I believe that is opposite to most automakers, where marketing dictates Philosophy.

[PCalhoun]

I believe that is opposite to most automakers, where marketing dictates Philosophy.

Actually I would argue that MOST car companies are driven by Accountants, NOT Marketing or Engineering

[ProstWest]

Actually I would argue that MOST car companies are driven by Accountants, NOT Marketing or Engineering

Point taken, but one might say the accountants don't drive, they just decide who rides.

[Stan Clayton]

I actually applaud Honda for the work that they have done, they did their homework & did it right. However, DO NOT THINK that they are doing this just to Keep FF alive or to benefit the racers. It is a marketing effort pure & simple & they think it is in their best business interest to do so. There is NOTHING WRONG with this, it is the way of the business world & is the correct attitude.

I agree with you on all points here, Jay. Honda are choosing to invest in FF for their own reasons. They may be in for just a few years, or they could be in for decades, but when they no longer see value in that investment they will leave. THAT reality, which of course is not exclusive to Honda or Ford, is why WE need to look to the future of the class. No one else, not Ford or Honda or any other outside interest, will do that for us.

And that is why for the better part of a decade now I have worked to nudge FF towards what I call an "evergreen formula"...one that rides out the comings and goings of any one supplier, chassis, engine or gearbox while sticking true to the basic formula. That way it can remain the affordable, vibrant, entry-level formula car class it was intended to be.

[John Merriman]

This is all fascinating stuff and in the end, when all factors are considered, the value and viability of a nifty new hi-tech engined / non-wing class is pretty clear. Based on the enthusiasm for it shown so far, it seems like it could be a great club racing success story. But.....there are a few BUTS!

1 Honda's goals are pretty clear and will likely benefit club racing and the US racing "ladder" system BUT their desire to create what is essentially a new class by piggy-backing in on Formula Ford's name and history is way too obvious.

2 Honda's "willingness" to fold the FIT into a class called Formula Ford (and whose name is based on the engine used) is a transparent PR move BUT it's bogus and just short of hillarious to even imagine.

3 Performance "parity" is a nice thing to talk about and an essential ingredient of the FIT proposal BUT at the very least it's extremely difficult, time consuming and complicated to achieve. At worst, it's utterly impossible and will surely destroy one of the great FF1600 qualities - its stability.

4 The FIT proposal speaks a lot about retrofitting existing cars and, okay, that's a good thing and part of a "transition". BUT the fact is that A) Within a very short time - perhaps no longer than two years - all the National and RunOff winning cars will be new, purpose built cars designed around the FIT. B) The great majority of FF1600 cars - over 90% - will not be converted.

5 New cars, a new hi-tech engine AND A NEW TIRE RULE - could all make for a very vigorous re-birth at this particular level of Club Racing BUT the major downside of the proposal as presented is that it will destroy Formula Ford and deliberately and definitively end one of the most successful SCCA classes ever, even as it currently maintains its high standing and the dedication of so many racers.

6 Proponents of continuing FF1600 as it is are automatically labeled as being opposed to change. BUT the very essense of FF1600 is its engine. "Adding" an engine to the class is not change as such. It's an entire redefinition of the class.

7 Yes, FoMoCo fell asleep and they may yet try to reawaken their interest in FF. BUT it will take an incredible effort on their part - at this point - to get back in the game!

Long live Formula Ford. And all good wishes to Formula Honda for a long life too.

( www.theKENTlives.com )

[Wren]

2 Honda's "willingness" to fold the FIT into a class called Formula Ford (and whose name is based on the engine used) is a transparent PR move BUT it's bogus and just short of hillarious to even imagine.

I don't think it is much of a PR move as no one has ever heard of the SCCA.

4 The FIT proposal speaks a lot about retrofitting existing cars and, okay, that's a good thing and part of a "transition". BUT the fact is that A) Within a very short time - perhaps no longer than two years - all the National and RunOff winning cars will be new, purpose built cars designed around the FIT. B) The great majority of FF1600 cars - over 90% - will not be converted.

What do you base that on? The same cars and drivers will be competitive as always, regardless of engine.

6 Proponents of continuing FF1600 as it is are automatically labeled as being opposed to change. BUT the very essense of FF1600 is its engine. "Adding" an engine to the class is not change as such. It's an entire redefinition of the class.

I think a lot of people would disagree that the engine is the essence of the class. It is much more about a non-winged, non-spec chassis class. There are already multiple engines allowed.

Do you really think that the manufacturer of the engine is important?

[John LaRue]

If the engine were the genesis of the class then it was compromised years ago when the alternative and "uprated" Kent engine was adopted to run alongside the Cortina. In all actuality the Honda proposal is not as radical as it is at least focused on finding parity; when the Kent was adopted there was a clear understanding that it would be superior.

Perhaps some of the old guard can chime in and set out the actual history.

John

[kea]

John,
An old guard here. First road race car, 1971 Titan F/Ford
When the uprated Kent was included in the class, the rules were modified. The original engine could have a 10:1 compression ratio, while the uprated would be 9.3:1, a steel center main cap could be added (standard main cap would break, the uprated design did not), and the car ran 50 Lbs. lighter than the uprated (weights were car then, not with driver). I know of some who were still trying to use the original motor and the lighter allowed weight, many years later, but the uprated package, and it's better combustion design, just seemed to worked better.
The uprated was brought in because, as in the Cortina street car, the internal design improvements, just made it better.

[TimW]

John,
The uprated was brought in because, as in the Cortina street car, the internal design improvements, just made it better.

So, why did that mentality stop in 1972? And I don't mean that facetiously, more there are lots of things that made engines better over the years...why did that mentality not keep on after that change?

[Ananth K]

The uprated was brought in because, as in the Cortina street car, the internal design improvements, just made it better.

Isnt that exactly what the Honda proposal is about, Keith - giving competitors a modern, inexpensive alternative ? I wonder if people whined this hard when the uprated engine was allowed?

[stevestaveley]

I have written to the CRB and spoken to our B of D member in support of the FIT proposal.

I wonder what the arguments would be if Ford had come forward with the basics of this proposal first rather than Honda? I have (as I said in a post pages and pages ago) a Crossle 55 that needs a new motor. Now if I put a FIT in it it still would be a old car with a new motor and the limiting factor is still ME. I think the FIT does make sense to consider as I do any proposal from Ford. I am going forward trying to find a good block, crank etc. to put whats left of the last new motor back together, but if I could get the kind of longevity out of a FIT or new Ford that my friend in F 2000 get then a modern engine sure makes sense as a club racer and that ultimately is the deciding factor for me. I do believe that engine longevity in a modern motor would be greater than even the best built Pinto motors.
I am going forward with the Pinto because I don't think this thing will settle out in the time frame necessary for me, otherwise, I would wait several more months to get the FIt / modern Ford, but at 65 - me and my old car have only so many years left to race, and none to waste.

Here is the down side I think to the FIT / New Ford proposals or ideas - it limits those of us with older (old) cars to club racing and some of the vintage racing and events such as " the Series" etc. are out for us if we install a modern motor. Lots of folks with older cars will keep them pure regardless, and not change to the FIT / or Ford modern motor - we just need to make a choice of what to race in such instances.

It would also help as Mr. Steel has written about to come up with a spec tire rule so the harder slicks from each tire builder would be the tire required. I have run on the ARs and frankly the longevity of the AR is impressive and I am sure that the GY 600, and the Hoosiers of similar "hardness" are all excellent and cost effective.

[Jnovak]

I agree with you on all points here, Jay. Honda are choosing to invest in FF for their own reasons. They may be in for just a few years, or they could be in for decades, but when they no longer see value in that investment they will leave. THAT reality, which of course is not exclusive to Honda or Ford, is why WE need to look to the future of the class. No one else, not Ford or Honda or any other outside interest, will do that for us.

And that is why for the better part of a decade now I have worked to nudge FF towards what I call an "evergreen formula"...one that rides out the comings and goings of any one supplier, chassis, engine or gearbox while sticking true to the basic formula. That way it can remain the affordable, vibrant, entry-level formula car class it was intended to be.

Great points Stan, keep up the good work.

Thanks ... Jay

[pwd911s]

Ferrari S.p.A. the world renowned Italian sports car manufacturer based in Maranello, Italy, has announced that they will field a proposal to the SCCA in response to Honda Motor Cars “Formula Fit” proposal. Seen here in a recent SPY shot, the Ferrari test mule clearly displaying the Scuderia Ferrari badging.

Ferrari founded by Enzo Ferrari in 1928 is known for sponsoring drivers and manufactured race cars for the top levels of racing. However in this recent decision to move into “Grass roots” racing the company has shocked to the car community. Spurred on by wildly insane and foolishly speculative “bench racing” chatter online. Ferrari jumped into the fray in direct response to Honda and Ford’s pending approval by the SCCA to allow a new engine for the very popular Formula Ford Class.

Stating that the engine will produce 800 hp and cost a mere $1500.00 or $300.00 more then the honda engine, the unidentified Ferrari executive further stated that the engine will of course need a restrictor plate. Their proposal will include a simple contingency plan consisting of free track support, 5,000 per win, all of the cappuccino you can drink and 2 scantly clad Italian pit girls for the season.

Ciao Bella!

[Tim FF19]

[Their proposal will include a simple contingency plan consisting of free track support, 5,000 per win, all of the cappuccino you can drink and 2 scantly clad Italian pit girls for the season.

As soon as FatBoy Racing hears about this they will be buying FF 1600's !!

[Shep]

Late to the party, and with an argument that never fully gelled... Against my better judgement, I'd like to post the thoughts that I finally expressed to the CRB/BOD on the Honda Fit proposal. As wandering as it is, there's an element of this note that I still think is crucial to FF regardless of the BOD's decision... Feedback appreciated.


Is it human nature that people want to jump to proposing "the solution" to a problem before they even know what the problem is? It's funny, I see it at work all the time – people want to "start making progress" and they sprint off to design a solution thinking, "I know what this program needs!" without really understanding what the core needs and critical requirements of the program are. But then we all suffer shortly thereafter, trying to first find, and then tie up, the loose ends.

So, here we are talking about what we need to "fix" Formula Ford... "I know, throw a modern fuel injected engine in there! That'll fix it! While we're at it, let's make it an all carbon fiber chassis, with carbon/carbon brakes, and beryllium calipers, and a 7 speed sequential hyper-drive transmission! Yeah, that's the ticket! That'll add some sizzle!"

Against what criteria can someone convince themselves that the above is viable for Formula Ford? I've been trying to think of how I will phrase my input to the CRB regarding the Honda Fit engine proposal (yes I know - am I too late yet?). On the surface of it, I'm inclined to say "shame on us - there's a golden opportunity being presented to Formula Ford, and we are not currently in the position to take advantage of it - reject the proposal and take some time to put our house in order. When (and only when) it is, pray that another golden opportunity appears shortly thereafter". To be honest, it makes me sick to think such a seemingly rare opportunity would be lost.

For the record, I'm not passionately for or against the Honda proposal. There can be no denying
the allure of a modern, low maintenance engine with increased longevity and decreased
replacement cost. For me personally, I don't believe it would be any harder to convert my Tatuus from Kent to Fit power than it was to convert it from Pinto to Kent power. (That's not to say it was easy -- 2 years were lost in the first conversion. Another year minimum would likely be lost installing the Fit -- not exactly what I had in mind when I said I wanted to "go racing".)

But my problem lies with the rationale by which people are saying that the Fit solution is crucial to the survival of FF. And how by throwing the nearest bright shiny object (e.g. carbon fibre, sequential transmissions) into the class, new FF racers will instantly appear.

The path forward for Formula Ford, and for amateur racing in general for that matter, is a complex systems engineering problem if I ever saw one. This isn't a design problem - this isn't about designing a new widget to stuff into the place of the old one - this is about understanding the entirety of amateur open-wheeled racing and determining what Formula Ford racing needs to become to keep its spot in the lineup.

What is Formula Ford? What are the fundamental objectives of the class? What are the
critical requirements and constraints? Once the community locks down the answers to those questions, then you can measure a proposal against them and see whether it fits. In my opinion, until the community centers up on the key requirements, proposing "solutions" for the class will be nothing but disruptive blindfolded dart-throwing. And then we all suffer.

So, rather than getting caught up in the minutia of 112 vs 114 hp, or .0011" clearances versus .0018" in production motor. I'd like to ask you all, what is Formula Ford meant to be? On ApexSpeed, on the arguments for and against the Honda, and especially in the spec tire discussion, you'll see a common thread peek through, and I think THAT's where we need to start...

In my opinion...Formula Ford is...
• A *drivers class* that emphasizes skill and/or hard work over technology and
pocketbook (now, "skill" can be the result of exhaustive testing or novel
interpretation of what I hope are tight rules, but I'd prefer that it's the best
driver in the end who wins in this class)
• A non-wing class that emphasizes mechanical grip and balance
• A class with strict constraints on a robust race-worthy motor so that the
emphasis is placed on driving and setup, not on frequent maintenance, or on a
spending war to find additional power
• A class that minimizes/disallows the use of blatant aerodynamic aids (yes Richard! Definition required, lol), but still encourages a clean aerodynamic design
• A purpose-built racecar that allows freedom of chassis and suspension design,
but is of a construction that can be built equally well in a home garage (albeit a
well-equipped one) or in a race car factory
• A class where the act of shifting (changeable) gears is required
• A class to introduce a racer or a crew member/engineer to the basics of
chassis set-up - wheel rates, corner weights, roll centers, spring rates, damping,
rake, ride height, camber curves, bump steer, anti-roll bar changes, optimal gearing,
etc, etc.
• A class that is accessible to middle-class (say arbitrarily, a $50k household
income) weekend racers with busy work weeks,
• A class where close racing is as much of the experience as getting to the
finish line first

So, what's my point and how does this relate to the Honda proposal? Well, if you use my impression of the FF fundamental requirements (and I’d rather use the amalgamation of everyone’s instead of using just mine) above, one gets a sense of what's truly crucial, and what's nice to have.

What *is* necessary to meet the goals? Well, a robust, cost effective race engine that is legitimately competitive for a price that meets the middle class racer constraint is one component. That it could be installed in the car and almost forgotten about for a full season would be a huge bonus, but is not strictly necessary.

So, is the Honda Fit engine compatible with the philosophy of Formula Ford (ignoring of course the fact that it’s not a Ford…)? Yes, it would appear to be on the surface (and based on the assertions of Honda). People have raised legitimate concerns about the Honda proposal on the ApexSpeed forum however. The most critical of those concerns being the (fully understandable) desire of Honda to be perceived as the preferred FF engine solution for marketing and investment return reasons, and the accompanying threat of subtle engine changes in future production runs to make it happen. There can be no denying that Honda would have a greater incentive to differentiate its engine relative to the baseline Kent than would Ford who would be pleased with a “Ford” in the car either way. It is this simple fact that disqualifies the Honda as a legitimate FF replacement engine option since the process of jockeying between engine options to pick the hottest of the month conflicts with the spirit of the class.

Qualifier… If by some miracle, absolute parity can be established between engine options AND the SCCA holds full control over the specification of each FF engine option (such as is the case with the Kent currently), the Honda option should be included. However, I do not believe that absolute parity can be achieved between options, nor do I believe the SCCA has the bandwidth to manage the parameters to ensure parity throughout the future of FF.

A few additional thoughts:
Please consider the inputs of Formula Ford participants current and future with more weight than outside observers. It appears, at least on the ApexSpeed forum, that there are several people with loud voices who do not race FF, have no intentions of running FF in the future, but still feel compelled to “fix” FF for the rest of us. I joined the SCCA to race Formula Fords and intend to do so through the foreseeable future. I am now a national license holder and have competed in an average of 4 races per season over the past 5 years. I am not “on the fence” for racing FF – your
decision will impact me directly and immediately.

The assertion that a competitive Kent costs $14000 as has been bandied about on the ApexSpeed forum is intentionally misleading... In 2003, a local engine builder fully rebuilt the engine in my first Club Ford for approximately $4500. It made regional-level power at best, but six years later it's still running in the car (now Mike Green's ), still with a stock crank and only a minor refresh as far as I know. (Which brings up another point – the Kent is a robust motor, not the hand grenade Honda proponents want to make it out to be. ) This past year, I had Jay Ivey massage an already solid Schulz shortblock with all of the upgraded parts. The result was what I believe to be a national-class engine for a price all-in for both engine builders of approximately $12k. This included twice the shipping costs and an additional break-down / rebuild cost that would not have occurred if I’d had the engine built by only one builder. Point being, a competitive motor can be built for much less than $14000 and the cost distributed over several seasons is not un-palatable.

Additionally, the assertion that the Kent engine is the problem or obstacle in Formula Ford is flawed. I feel that the price I paid for the Ivey engine represents a good value, and I look forward to several additional seasons with only modest rebuild costs now that I’ve made an investment in the solid foundation. The engine is bolted in the back of the chassis, I start it, it runs, I race. I don't care that it's a Ford, or that it's carbureted vs. fuel injected. I only care that I know that my engine is competitive relative to the guy running next to me. By far, the seasonal expenditure on race tires is much more frustrating to me and a larger problem for the health of Formula Ford.

In closing, I respectfully urge the Board of Directors and Competition Board to take a holistic approach in making a final decision on the Honda Fit engine proposal. While the proposal is attractive at first glance from a cost, longevity and present-day-technology standpoint, there are some significant pitfalls that must be avoided to ensure that the Honda solution is compatible with the spirit of Formula Ford. Make an compelling case for engine parity and I say allow the Honda solution. Otherwise, please allow Formula Ford to remain a “Ford Kent” class with the potential of more modern solutions from Ford in the future.

Said another way, this decision isn't about which engine is chosen, it is about the process by which the chosen engine is made to work for Formula Ford.

[jeff88ix]

So the vote is/was today correct? when will we hear the results? somebody knows.......

Jeff