Honda engines in FF?

[Allen_W]

Regarding the FS FFit running on the track with the FF/CF/VFF or whoever. I like the fact that someone with a brain used some discretion and allowed it. Too bad that someone couldn't have also used some discretion and arranged for all who showed to be able to race.

I think running the Honda with us at the 40th was the right thing to do--a good test, awareness and subsequent discussion, etc.

It was a blast to see and run with so many cars from so far away, names I've read about, cars I've seen photos of. And it was also good, as I think about it, to see an effort to think out the future of the class and be part of that.

I hadn't thought until reading this thread about the drivers who didn't get to run. Really, it's only 1 off the waiting list who was affected. Probably what should have happened was that the 1st waiting list driver be allowed to join the group. Still, the group would have been under the 110 or 112 or whatever number actually on track.

But, in the region's defense, they were dealing with a LOT of cars, drivers, issues, etc. I think the region did an excellent job. Gridding up 100+ cars . . . and a black flag, with sorting of positions to be done for that many cars . . . I was really impressed. Of course, I did get to run and use my permanent number . . .

[swiftdrivr]

If there are no more serious discussion points on the proposal for the FIT, perhaps someone knowledgable could do a quick synopsis of the pros and cons [of the engine proposal, not there fellow competitors.] and we could take a straw poll and see what the majority wants.
PS; The more I think abaout it, I think Formula Ford, powered by HONDA would make a great sales pitch. Ford gets jabbed for not supporting us, honda gets credit both for the modern engine and riding to the rescue. Jim

[dc]

Jim, check out the straw poll already running on the front portal page (click the ApexSpeed logo at the top of the page). Pretty interesting results already.

[glenn cooper]

You guy's STILL get worked up when "Barbarella" comes on the late late movie!
GC

[sracing]

PS; The more I think abaout it, I think Formula Ford, powered by HONDA would make a great sales pitch.

That's one idea. Actually when a large company comes into support a venue, I think they should get the name. When they leave us they should lose it. Formula Ford should have had it's name changed when Ford no longer supported the class in any way. If there were some reward (and punishment) we might see longer term relationships. Other than what appears to be the interest of a SCCA racer in Honda and a small number of engine sales, I am not sure what Honda gets out of this deal. Rewarding them with a name and the exposure the SCCA gives them (albiet slight) would certainly be fair. If (when) they pull out, we sell to the next bidder.

[Tom Valet]

IMO, Formula Ford powered by Honda makes no sense, unless one is proposing a spec Honda engine for the entire class. First, not all cars will have Hondas in them, in fact most of the FFs will still have a Ford engine in them for a long time. Second, I thought the proposal to allow the Honda in specifically envisioned the class being opened to other potential engines by other manufacturers. I agree that Honda should be thanked for stepping up and creating this engine, but naming the class after them seems premature.

[stonebridge20]

In trying to gather information about this proposal prior to forming an opinion,I have read all 14 pages here twice in full. So far, I see good and bad areas in the proposal. The one area I just can't figure out is Honda's motivation. It has been stated here in this thread many times that Honda is not trying to eliminate the Kent engine. Can someone explain why a manufacturer would get so deeply involved in a class that has had a single engine formula for 40 years and not want to (over time) dominate the class with their product. I just don't understand Honda's reason to enter and support a class if they are willing to supply and support an "underdog" engine.

Some opinions please.

[sracing]

Second, I thought the proposal to allow the Honda in specifically envisioned the class being opened to other potential engines by other manufacturers..

Not sure of that, or what is in the minds of the SCCA or Honda. I personally hope not. That means that the approval process and fights would happen for every new engine. It would also put some pressure on each manufacturer to make sure that their engine is the faster one. With the Honda approach it only touches the Ford and the Ford is eventually going to go away.

. I agree that Honda should be thanked for stepping up and creating this engine, but naming the class after them seems premature.

Most certainly. But you do have to wonder why Honda would want to be involved for the tiny amount of engines they would sell. It sounds like it is just a pet project. Without some motivation, why invest very much or stay invoved for a long time? Promo and advertising is about all we have to offer. Saying they just want to get involved in SCCA grass roots racing IMO, is like Mercedes offering to build some chassis for us so they can get involved in grass roots...."

[Tom Valet]

Not sure of that, or what is in the minds of the SCCA or Honda. I personally hope not. That means that the approval process and fights would happen for every new engine. It would also put some pressure on each manufacturer to make sure that their engine is the faster one. With the Honda approach it only touches the Ford and the Ford is eventually going to go away.

Direct from the CRB proposal:

The CRB does not view this proposal to be in any way exclusive of similar future proposals for Formula Ford engines from other sources.

[sracing]

Can someone explain why a manufacturer would get so deeply involved in a class that has had a single engine formula for 40 years and not want to (over time) dominate the class with their product. I just don't understand Honda's reason to enter and support a class if they are willing to supply and support an "underdog" engine.
Some opinions please.

Exactly. And, I guess I don't care, other than whatever that motivation is, lets hope it remains. I guess it would be nice to plain out ask them..

[sracing]

Direct from the CRB proposal:

The CRB does not view this proposal to be in any way exclusive of similar future proposals for Formula Ford engines from other sources.

Yes, I saw that, but it's not an invite to anyone either. Unless someone is soliciting them, I can't imagine another manufacture actively persuing FF.

[stonebridge20]

Yes, I saw that, but it's not an invite to anyone either. Unless someone is soliciting them, I can't imagine another manufacture actively persuing FF.

Then why is Honda?

[Tom Valet]

Mike, could it be as simple as a couple of engineers from Honda Motorsports who race an FF thought this would a fun thing to do?

Or is Honda taking their first steps toward more broad support of motorsports, similar to what Mazda has done.

At RA I heard both explanations.

[cooleyjb]

I'm also not considering the Honda engine to be a complete underdog. I have a feeling that it has better numbers than a big % of the motors out there.

[Matt King]

It pretty much has to be a combination of both, because I doubt a purely analytical business case would have impressed the bean counters.

[Stan Clayton]

Weren't there suggestions at RA that FF was just the first of many classes Honda planned to enter? Maybe they're setting up something like what Mazda has...a full-court grassroots racing presence to build brand awareness and buying loyalty.

[John LaRue]

My understanding is that HPD has witnessed the financial success Mazda has realized in grass roots motorsports and is seeking to follow that lead. It also helps that some of the HPD guys are ex-FF racers. Of course what does motivation have to do with it, we have the proposal in black and white. All I can say is that it needs to be a fair fight; not a 2 tiered class as that is what made a mess of FC for the past 3 years.

[Stan Clayton]

What are your specific concerns, John?

[rickjohnson356]

Sorry for the hijack..I think it is a start to a marketing program for Honda cars similar to Mazda's involvement.

I would welcome the Fit in FF for sure.

I know that for the first time sine 1986, I am contemplating buying a NEW car, and the MazdaSpeed3 is what I am looking at. And I am a strong proponent of buying used cars only.

I have only purchased used cars from private parties in the past 20some-odd years: No big depreciation hit when you drive it off the lot, no taxes, no stupid dealer 'add-ons' etc.

I see Mazdas in most of the classes at a race weekend and am impressed with their program.

Maybe Honda is trying to do the same thing. I'm not sure why, because they are already on the top of most people's list for reliability etc.

I bought a 1991 CRX for a commuter car about 18 mo ago for $1200 and have really been impressed with H's stuff. 30+ mpg at 75mph .....That poor ZC SOHC engine was abused by the PO and by me and still kept on running. I replaced the engine with a stock (used-from-Japan- 45K mile engine) 1500cc for about $1000 this April. And will rebuild the ZC for the next time.

[Daryl DeArman]

I'm also not considering the Honda engine to be a complete underdog. I have a feeling that it has better numbers than a big % of the motors out there.

Agree. I'd also guess that over time as more Kents suffer catastrophic failure or are just in need of a complete rebuild more Hondas will appear. They will get plenty of wins based on their number as well as being reasonably close to the best and better than many. Kind of like a Crossle 32/35 in CF.

[sracing]

Maybe they're setting up something like what Mazda has...a full-court grassroots racing presence to build brand awareness and buying loyalty.

Maybe, but the Class "Formula Ford" doesn't give them much exposure or brand awareness other than the driving that car.

[Stan Clayton]

Maybe so, Jim, but ya gotta start somewhere, and there are a couple of FF drivers on the HPD staff.

[John LaRue]

Stan,

I believe that the engines should be set as close in performance to each other as is possible from the outset to avoid the confusion and loss of interest like we experienced in the FC/Zetec program. Without quoting numbers it seemed that FC really took a hit about the same time the Zetec was brought on board. Once the CRB took action to find parity (2009) the numbers seem to be recovering. So far this season the participation numbers look pretty good in Great Lakes and Cen Div and a fair number of Zetecs are compeiting in club; this was not the case last year when there was not a hope. (Of course, the numbers may be aided by the move to RA as well.)

Anyway, with the resources available it seems to me that if and when the Fit is approved it should be done so to be on par with the Kent. If there is a tweek then that needs to be made one way or the other we have the ability to do this almost instantaneously.

John

[provamo]

back to "coop"s barbarella comment....just start a new class FHONDA

[Jnovak]

Honda has obviously made a decision to get involved in grassroots racing. Take a look at what Mazda has accomplished in the last 10 years. I also believe that Honda takes a long term view of this business decision. I suspect that they do not care that "FOR NOW" the class is called FF or FFord. I suspect that they are thinking that in 5 years or so they class name will have changed or migrated to FF or FFit.

I spoke to a couple of people from HPD at the Cat & they indicated that a lot of $$$ & people resources have been spent on this project to make it possible. They did a great job in all aspects of the project & no way are they doing this as a "GIFT" to the club. This is a business decision period. No company will spend around $150K on a project like this without the expectation of a return.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[nulrich]

Why not just call it F1600? I've heard that label fairly often. Fits nicely in with F500, F1000, F2000 (I rarely call it FC).

I wonder what other manufacturers would consider backing an engine in FF/F1600? Mazda uses the Ford Duratec, it might fit in with their grassroots strategy. Is that the same engine used in European FF?

The next obvious place for Honda is in FC/F2000, but I don't think they have a 2.0 liter DOHC engine that's appropriate. I guess they could use their 1.8 liter engine, but what I'm expecting is a proposal to use their N22 turbodiesel: aluminum block, 2.0 liter displacement, DOHC, 140 hp stock....at 4000 rpm! I don't think an LD200 would take the torque, though.

Nathan

[swiftdrivr]

I agree that the engines should be as equal as humanly possible, from the git-go. Jim

[Daryl DeArman]

I agree that the engines should be as equal as humanly possible, from the git-go. Jim

Absolutely from the beginning! If we go down that competition adjustment road we end up with a constantly moving target and the politicking for various allowances or concessions. Rule changes are expensive. And how are you possibly going to judge when the engines are as equal as humanly possible? Way too many variables to look at on track performance. We could get the HP/TQ curves of the two motors identical and someone would bitch that one motor has a lower CoG, or that one engine is allowed to be mounted further forward in the chassis giving a lower polar moment, or one is better suited to be installed as a stressed member of the chassis...

[stonebridge20]

Absolutely from the beginning! If we go down that competition adjustment road we end up with a constantly moving target and the politicking for various allowances or concessions. Rule changes are expensive. And how are you possibly going to judge when the engines are as equal as humanly possible? Way too many variables to look at on track performance. We could get the HP/TQ curves of the two motors identical and someone would bitch that one motor has a lower CoG, or that one engine is allowed to be mounted further forward in the chassis giving a lower polar moment, or one is better suited to be installed as a stressed member of the chassis...

It sounds kind of like the slippery slope I spent 4 years on in GT3. Trust me, it was no fun!

[se7en]

FF - Formula Ford (Kent)
FFH - Formula Ford (Honda)
CF - Club Ford (Kent)
CFH - Club Ford (Honda)

or (if or when the Kent goes to the Great Scrapyard in the Sky (other than Vintage))

FF - Formula FIT
CF - Club FIT

Aforementioned formula designations are all tongue-in-cheek recommendations.
Let the fur fly! Hmmm... ff
Ken

[Daryl DeArman]

It sounds kind of like the slippery slope I spent 4 years on in GT3. Trust me, it was no fun!

Absolutely, I agree. Personally, I don't foresee ever racing in a class with competition adjustments. That's why I was suggesting that the best approach was "from the get-go"....no tweaking for all the reasons I stated above.

[Bill Steele]

One thing that came to mind when on the "fuel" thread was the relative costs of different gas.

I don't know what is planned for the Fit fuel wise, but if it can run on pump gas versus 110 leaded or 100LL, there will be a savings there as well.

Although the difference between gas station pump gas and Avgas is smaller, for those like me that run the local Sunoco 110, being able to run normal road Premium in a Fit engined car would not be insignificant. I think it would be close to $1000 a year in race fuel savings for me when all racing and test days are included.

[kevin keller]

In trying to gather information about this proposal prior to forming an opinion,I have read all 14 pages here twice in full. So far, I see good and bad areas in the proposal. The one area I just can't figure out is Honda's motivation. It has been stated here in this thread many times that Honda is not trying to eliminate the Kent engine. Can someone explain why a manufacturer would get so deeply involved in a class that has had a single engine formula for 40 years and not want to (over time) dominate the class with their product. I just don't understand Honda's reason to enter and support a class if they are willing to supply and support an "underdog" engine.

Some opinions please.

Mike,

We ran with a karting team a number of years ago. There was a team of engineers working at Honda would get new Karting chassis every year. They claimed to be doing testing with the chassis, but said what was being tested. They made it clear they had no interest in going into the Karting industry and shared no data with the kart race team.
Testing out of the box maybe??????


Kevin

[RussMcB]

I don't know what is planned for the Fit fuel wise, but if it can run on pump gas versus 110 leaded or 100LL, there will be a savings there as well.

Great point. That was one of the big attractions to my class (FB). Hopefully, the 2010 fuel rules will not force FF (and other 'race' classes) to use racing gas when they don't need it.

[R. Pare]

Been a while since I read the fuel rules, but will street gas pass the fuel tests?

[Larry]

Honda is doing what SCCA Enterprises should have done with the FE. They are gaining experience under actual racing conditions, so that when (hopefully) the engine is adopted, it won't have nearly as many infant mortality problems. Honda is deserving of kudos for their efforts!

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Bill Steele]

In trying to gather information about this proposal prior to forming an opinion,I have read all 14 pages here twice in full. So far, I see good and bad areas in the proposal. The one area I just can't figure out is Honda's motivation. It has been stated here in this thread many times that Honda is not trying to eliminate the Kent engine. Can someone explain why a manufacturer would get so deeply involved in a class that has had a single engine formula for 40 years and not want to (over time) dominate the class with their product. I just don't understand Honda's reason to enter and support a class if they are willing to supply and support an "underdog" engine.

Some opinions please.

Mike,

I have read a number of posts where people question or postulate Honda's motivation for this proposal.

Being a real fan of Ockam's Razor, I am one for picking the simplest explanation first. In this case, the simplest explanation is Honda's stated explanation which is they are making a new effort in grass roots motorsports and support for an engine like this in a class like this fits in that overall objective. The fact that Honda has been a long time participant of formula car racing on many levels, probably is also a factor in what efforts they undertake in the grass roots area.

Having spent most of my career in big companies, one thing I did learn is hidden agendas typically don't work out. It is hard enough to be successful when everyone in the organization understands the plan, having hidden agendas are always a formula for failure. Honda doesn't fail at much.

[Wren]

Been a while since I read the fuel rules, but will street gas pass the fuel tests?

It will for FB, should this proposal pass, I think it would make a lot of sense for the rules to allow pump gas for the Fit motor.

[Bill Steele]

Great point. That was one of the big attractions to my class (FB). Hopefully, the 2010 fuel rules will not force FF (and other 'race' classes) to use racing gas when they don't needed it.

I just mentioned Ockham's Razor, now I guess it is time for Murphy's Law. At least as it pertains to fuel rules and the Fit in SCCA. Murphy's Law will almost ensure that there is no way we will be able to use plain old street gas in our FF's with a Fit.

Nowadays people talk about unintended consequences with regard to what goes on in Washington. Long before I ever started paying attention to our government, I learned about unintended consequences in rule making by racing in SCCA. I wish I didn't love racing so much.

[TimW]

Street gas would be best, IMO. As long as its all gas. Here in the flyover cornfield even the 'premium' 91 or 93 is 10% ethanol, which is an issue for the fuel cell foam and perhaps the fuel lines. Prolly lots of other issues as well, including oxygenated 'summer' gas over 'normal' gas for fall/spring races. Safe to say the 100 octane Sunoco unleaded won't save you much money over 110 leaded Sunoco, but it may extend the life of your cell if you can only find blends of street gas where you are.

I ran Canadian street gas in the Formula Tour 1600 series (spec fuel required, from a sanctioning body selected Esso station outside the track), 2 races spanning 3 weeks 2 years ago and have not found any ill affects yet. And I did get it out immediately after the last race there. Its also possible that Canada has tighter controls over what is in its pump gas that is not in play down here, so it could very well have been all gas (and it was not cheap up there, all gas stations had prices within a penny of each other which possibly implies some level of regulation, but it was cheaper than leaded...)