So what makes FF the class it is--the specific use of an old Ford tractor engine, or the sum total of the ruleset that establishes the basic performance envelope of the vehicle?
So what makes FF the class it is--the specific use of an old Ford tractor engine, or the sum total of the ruleset that establishes the basic performance envelope of the vehicle?
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
Seriously Marc? You expect this to not be discussed for the next week because of the 40th Festival coming up? VERY highly unlikely.
Frankly, this only increases the excitement of this event for me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
In my opinion, this announcement/proposal in no way detracts from the excitement and anticipation of the 40th Celebration, but only gives me hope for this class in the long term. I don't see how the proposal of another engine option in this class, that is even slightly underpowered to a National level Kent, can be anything but a MAJOR boost for the potential of new blood in this class. I don't understand the friction and panic, honestly. How does this detract in any way from the spectacle at Road America this weekend?
This isn't targeted for the top 10% of the National guys—it's targeted to the remainder of the non-winged single seat Formula Fords in the country—which as we are finding out this week, there are a LOT of them out there. So where are these 241 cars the rest of the year? How many other cars are out there not being raced for engine or overall cost reasons?
I'm not saying this is the saving grace, because there are still a lot of questions to be asked and answered. But in my book, this is a great start.
I don't know about any of you guys, but my gears are turning with a frenzy.
By my calculation, there are 1,250 laps at Road America with one of those engine before a rebuild.Doesn't sound like a bad thing to me.
Originally Posted by provamo
And all the TypeR stickers! Get some mad hp yo
Personally, I really like the concept. The idea of a purpose build racecar with a technologically relevant powerplant, and relatively reasonable to run. The fact that the class is not a spec class, and allows so much design variation and development really makes it appealling. Add the option of a new powerplant and this becomes the most appealling class for me as well. I really like the idea of owning a Ford (have a Vee at the moment) but the only real downside was the old engine. If the rules were regualted properly, similar to how it is now, I don't see any reason that this couldn't work. But like anything implementation and regulation has to be proven.
-Bill
Being this Honda powered DB1 is supposed to be at the 40th and it already has 200 miles of testing. It would be interesting to put an independent "shoe" in the car for a few laps. Someone that would come on Apex and give a full and honest opinion of the engine. I would think that the parties involved in this proposal would be happy to put someone non involved in the car for an honest and open opinion if they really think this engine should be a viable option to the Kent.
Being that his first SCCA license was hand written on rice paper with a quill pen and probably has more laps in a FF than anybody still breathing, I think Mike Rand would be the perfect test pilot.
Stonebridge Sports & Classics ltd
15 Great Pasture Rd Danbury, CT. 06810 (203) 744-1120
www.cryosciencetechnologies.com
Cryogenic Processing · REM-ISF Processing · Race Prep & Driver Development
I know that the demo run being planned for the car will be driven by a former SCCA RunOffs FF winner and an ApexSpeed regular contributor, so I think we will be getting a very reasonable and unbiased response from the demonstration driver this weekend.
Looking forward to talking with all of the parties involved.
Serious,
That's where the active FF racers will be. People left on Sunday for that event, more yesterday, and more as this week goes on.
It is unfair to run a discussion like this when the majority of the people actively racing in the class are at an event celebrating the GREAT HISTORY of FF.
I'm leaving for RA right now, cooler just got packed with Spotted Cow, stop by and have one with me.
I will return with my comments MONDAY.
FFCoalition.com
Marc Blanc
I am a bit surprised at the described HP curve. They say the HP is down slightly, but the curve is the same as the Ford. To do this they must have detuned it. The induction/cam system on the Honda should provide a MUCH wider HP curve. Not to mention that the a/f ratos will be flat across the full RPM range at WOT even when ambient temps, baro, etc. change. Whereas with the Ford carb it is a compromise and will change at every altitude, load and throttle position. I will forfeit a couple HP at one comparison, if I know it will always be optimized at every track and environment. (I don't think many FF guys change their jets and timing at every event. ? )
I don't know who did the tests, but comparing the engines at different environs is pretty important when doing an ECM vs. a Carb.
Also, with Fly by wire systems, the ECM manages the actual throttle position and often severely limits torque at peak levels to protect the drive train warranty. Wonder if they changed that in the ECM tables? On a current street car with Fly by wire it often feels like you have a 500lb flywheel when you accellerate in 1st gear.
I'm pretty certain the conversation will continue at RA in person and here for the next few days, and then it will continue even more next week. This isn't an official website or an official discussion, so it is reasonable for people to start posting their opinions and thinking this through. I leave for Wisconsin tomorrow, I will certainly be watching this thread with interest all weekend.
Question- is there a goal to reach parity at some point in the future, or is the goal to have the kent engine always be the one to have to run at the pointy end of a national grid?
The Honda engine is inlet restricted and I believe the ECM (ECU???) is modified. The dyno work was done at Quicksilver Racengines with HPD on hand over about 3 days. I don't know the specifics on what they changed but they have a ton of experience on the Zetec engines and probably have a pretty good handle on this.I am a bit surprised at the described HP curve. They say the HP is down slightly, but the curve is the same as the Ford. To do this they must have detuned it. The induction/cam system on the Honda should provide a MUCH wider HP curve. Not to mention that the a/f ratos will be flat across the full RPM range at WOT even when ambient temps, baro, etc. change. Whereas with the Ford carb it is a compromise and will change at every altitude, load and throttle position. I will forfeit a couple HP at one comparison, if I know it will always be optimized at every track and environment. (I don't think many FF guys change their jets and timing at every event. ? )
I don't know who did the tests, but comparing the engines at different environs is pretty important when doing an ECM vs. a Carb.
Also, with Fly by wire systems, the ECM manages the actual throttle position and often severely limits torque at peak levels to protect the drive train warranty. Wonder if they changed that in the ECM tables? On a current street car with Fly by wire it often feels like you have a 500lb flywheel when you accellerate in 1st gear.
SteveO
Genius idea! I put in my vote for rand as well!
Awww, come on guys, it's so simple. Maybe you need a refresher course. Hey! It's all ball bearings nowadays.
perhasp they're out there reflecting on the history of the class and while there can discuss the FUTURE of the class. It's an FF party, not a funeral.
Awww, come on guys, it's so simple. Maybe you need a refresher course. Hey! It's all ball bearings nowadays.
Don't know about you guys - but I am stoked just thinking of the accessories that we could use...
Like this - the "HONDA FIT S2000 PRELUDE HELLO KITTY ENGINE OIL CAP JDM"
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HONDA-FIT-S2000-PRELUDE-HELLO-KITTY-ENGINE-OIL-CAP-JDM_W0QQitemZ270382758347QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors _Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item3ef41179cb&_ trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A12|39%3A1|72%3 A1171
It also will make searching for parts on ebay much, much more fun.
---------
Mike Green
Piper DF2 FF
I read the Honda proposal last weekend, with the attached pictorial documentation. Spent some time with those involved. Very impressive. They appear to have done their homework. They even pointed out how to change the wording in the GCR, line by line. That was a sticky wicket when we did both the FB and Zetec proposals, so they were certainly paying attention to detail.
A DB1 was the test subject because it was thought to be one of the most difficult chassis to which to adapt an engine.
The Fit motor being shorter than the Kent easy allows for an adapter to fit Hewland or Staffs, etc. Citation will probably build their own Fit bellhousing. Everything from the aircleaner to the exhaust collecter is part of the detailed kit, including the clutch. You provide the exhaust pipe to fit your chassis.
With the experience of Zetec/Pinto balancing act the fit of the Fit is years ahead of where the Zetec was when it was introduced to FC.
Therewere multiple people at Summit Point last weekend already planning to move to the Fit with new cars, not changing out existing cars.
In my opinion it does not dilute the FF 40th at all. What better venue to present the concept than one with the largest gathering of the clan. Damned if you do, damned if you don't... imagine the uproar if they announced it a week after the FF40th. All the more reason if you are a FF fan to be at Road America this weekend.
I have sent my statement of support for this proposal to the crb.
This proposal sounds just like what the class needs to return to it's roots as an affordable first step in open-wheeled racing.
To me, FF has very little do do with Ford, it's just about the racing. I couldn't care if the car is powered by a Kia motor, so long as it's cheap, reliable, competitive and fun, I'm in.
The new Citation bellhousings are a bolt together assembly, so there is a lot of hope for this to fit in the new cars I know. Does anyone know how forthcoming Honda will be with drawings and other support for manufacturers? A .stp file of the outside dimensions of the engine will all available accesory holes and mounted bits would be a huge benefit to anyone trying to design a car around this new engine or for anyone trying to engineer a conversion kit or their own conversion.
I am pretty excited about this and I know that Brandon and I have really been looking forward to checking it out.
Based on what information I have collected today, the power output looks to be 114 to 115hp, which is just a tick under a top National Kent engine on the same dyno, and the dyno charts show almost an identical power curve from the Quicksilver dyno. The engine is limited with a restrictor plate to where it is right now.
The best thing I have heard concerning this engine proposal, is that it was submitted to the CRB before the deadline necessary for a 2010 update to the FF rulebook.
Personally, I'd love to see this as a sealed unit available from any of the engine builders, limiting what can be done to it, just like the Zetec or FE engine. I don't know if that is on the table yet with HPD or SCCA, but I hope it is being discussed. Keep them all at 115hp and there will be a LOT of happy campers out there.
Photos are coming shortly. I think you guys will be excited to see what the engine in the car looks like.
This is long overdue, and to me, very welcome.
'Bout time!
This is a great idea. If successful, perhaps this endeavor can pave the way for similar efforts in other classes.
hmmm, I'm here already, have been here for 3 days in a lakeside cabin with no tv or Internet connection, and am following along just fine. It's 2009, thus its the Internet not the telegraph Marc.
------------------
'Stay Hungry'
JK 1964-1996 #25
WOW! What a difference a year can make.
We've been having these discussions every winter for years....seems it is always poo-poo'd on. Now, it seems like there are many more people behind it.
I know that I would have never have sold my Crossle had there been a reasonable alternative. I know we aren't talking about CF, but in any event it can't do anything but help that class. Either the Fit motor will be accepted on a regional level by different regions OR there could be a lot more Kent parts and motors available, bringing their value down significantly.
Are the major FF motor builders behind this? How many of them make most of their revenue rebuilding/servicing and selling motors other than the Kent?
Not to be a stick in the mud, but how is spending $12k plus on old fords going to help FF? I have read all the posts so far and I am not convinced that this will help the class any? Here is a crazy thought.............instead of converting DB6's and any other continental why not leave the 2 liter and the zetec's in place have scca enterprises make a restrictor plate or change mapping on zatec's to FF performance, remove the wings and diffusers, set up your suspension and go ff racing. It seems like there is more 2 liter stuff floating around than 1600 FF stuff. Then if you wanted to you could put the 2 liter stuff back on and go race FC. Sure you would have some tweaks here and there to do but sure sounds more realistic than having these $12k honda kits in old fords. I do agree something needs to be done with the class to help it out.............but? If SCCA goes with this knee jerk reaction.................count me out. Maybe my circle track days are coming sooner than expected
$12,000 is a complete kit to convert a DB1, including the engine. The cost for a new Ivey or Loyning is ~$10,000, give or take. A rebuild for a 40-year old Kent is $3,000 to $5,000, depending on if you put the "new" stuff in it and an aluminum head or not. Many are doing them once a year if you are not running upgraded pistons, crank or head. The cost of the kit is 2-3 engine rebuilds, and you are still probably years away from needing to touch a 5,000 mile engine.
That's just about 2,700 laps at Blackhawk Farms for a $2,500 engine.
I will skip a year, or even two to be able to save up to do the conversion. In the long run, the savings will be noticed in only a few short seasons of racing.
And for those who don't want it, there will be plenty of Kents on the second-hand market, and plenty of engine shops to take your rebuilds every winter.
Thunder,
A few years back I was part of a committee that was charged to look at the future of FF. Many good things came about as a result. We did look seriously at just what you suggest (Zetec). I too thought this would be a wonderful idea as someone could purchase one car/engine and run it in either configuration. For those using the system as a stepping stool they could run FF and then convert to go FC and eventually F2 pro racing. What we were told was that it would be very difficult to choke the engine down to that level of performance with the current Zetec configuration. It might have been possible with the stock manifold and exhaust, but that wasn't investigated to deeply. The Zetec in such configuration in the UK put out significantly more power than our current Kent 1600s. AS it played out this was probably correct as the original mapping and restrictor really did not work on track and was quickly changed out.
The Honda does look like a nice package. It offers the durability we have with the Zetec with the plus of this being a current production engine with many more years of production and shelf life. One of the promary reasons I left FF was due to engine maintenance. Things have improved in the past few years since I departed, but they are still high maintenance compared to the modern engines.
I have been invited to run the Honda this weekend and am certainly looking forward to turning a few laps. I will report back my impressions good or bad.
John
The answer to this has been posted a few times before:
Our own experience, never mind the experience of the Brits when they tried it, is that even in detuned form, the addition of the weight of the Zetec, but without wings, etc, upsets the car balance so much that only cars specifically designed, built, and balanced for that engine are even remotely pleasant to drive - stick a Zetec in an older car and they are damned near undriveable.
Everyone has been there, done that, and learned their lesson.
It's hardly a knee-jerk reaction - many of us have preached this sort of change for 15 years or more.
Formula Fit
I too have read the FastTrack proposal and responses below and don't know how anyone could form a solid opinion based on the limited information and hear say presented thus far.
The case for a DB1 fitament is strong based on the shear number of chassis constructed over time, but the last of these chassis are now over 20 years old! A DB6, while newer, is still pushing its teenage years. While we can count on one hand how many new VD 1600s have been imported in the last five years and Piper construction has just recently passed into double digits over the lifespan of the 2nd generation car. Where are these cars (& drivers) going to come from that are lacking motors?
The DB1 & 6 is another interesting case study in that the oil pan and bell housing/oil tank are structural components of the car. How the Fit engine takes this into account I guess will be under watchful eyes this w/e. I am also interested to see if the proposal still allows for a single plate racing clutch and dry sump lubrication OR is it expected that stock Honda econo-box components will be up to the rigors of a racing environment?
Also as noted would this be a sealed Honda supplied engine? If NOT welcome to the world of Showroom Stock and Spec Miata where the cost of motors is much higher than what we see in FF. And you will also have a battle between engine builder propoganda as to who has the best HP/TQ curves.
At this point I believe there are a lot more questions than answers, of which internet speculation will not answer. I do applaud those at HPD, however, w/ a passion for open wheel club racing to at least have taken the initative to look into alternatives. We just need more concrete information to form an opinion.
I think it may be time for an ApexSpeed poll to gauge interest in questions such as:
- What should intitial cost of long-block Fit motor be?
- Should motor be sealed by HPD or approved engine builder(s)
- What should conversion kit cost be for "popular" chassis?
i.e. Swift DB1 & 6, VD, Piper, Citation
- What should rebuild cost be?
- What is life expectancy of motor?
I could come up w/ a whole bunch more questions, but you get the idea. As I am a firm believer that sweeping rules changes could hurt more then help the stability of the class, despite our 40 year old tractor motors.
Peter Calhoun
Motorsport Manager- Michelin North America, Inc. (retired)
Swift DB1-86 FF1600 (bye-bye 3.12)
2009-10 SCCA CM National Champions
This is an engine option, not a sweeping rule change to eliminate the Kent. From the people that I have talked to today, the Kent will still be the engine to have if you want to win a National Championship.
The fast guys are still going to be pushing the boundaries of the class with the aluminum head Kent. The rest of us can look for the alternative, or capitalize on the reduced cost of used Kents.
Well fact of the matter is we are still going to have old formula fords with some of these new engines in, and some with kents in them. When I think of race cars I think of the latest and the greatest to make them go fast. Well................look at our fields. In the FF group its mainly 97-01 van diemens, db 6's and db 1's a few late model pipers and then there is everything else including my old car. To me we are all racing a bunch of club fords. Dont get me wrong I think the honda will work and all........but I just dont think it will make the class grow and get new/newer used cars and drivers out on track.
Formula Fit
NO it is sweeping, because for 40 years the motor has been Cortina based. The performance difference may be minuet initially, but after development of Fit specific chassis (if there is demand) and development of the modern all-alum powerplant this could quickly disappear. Thus, sealed engines would be a must to maintain parady and cost control.
Additional independant testing should also be conducted. As QS has been known in the past to have "preferred" customers who receive stronger motors than others; i.e. all QS motors are not the same.
Doug- based on our existing motor spec and the dilemma you are in, what do you believe the cost of a motor & annual maintenance should be?
Complete rebuildable engine w/ iron head?
Same w/ alum head?
Turn-key Reg'l motor w/ cast iron head?
Turn-key Nt'l motor w/ alum head?
I'll be the first to admit that I highly recommended the car you bought, but your motor dilemma and subsquent buyers remorse has left me bewildered. As our motor costs have been relatively stable (except for the advent of the alum head) and longevity has increased the past five years.
The one big stumbling block is the availability of 711 blocks for those older chassis, which require the additonal side mounting bosses. With a Swift, VD, or Piper this is a non-issue as the Fiesta block works fine.
Look fwd to meeting you face-to-face this w/e, I'll be there all three days.
Last edited by PCalhoun; 07.21.09 at 11:15 PM.
Peter Calhoun
Motorsport Manager- Michelin North America, Inc. (retired)
Swift DB1-86 FF1600 (bye-bye 3.12)
2009-10 SCCA CM National Champions
A Miata Fitment Also In Play?
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure a west coast shop is also working on a turnkey FF fitment for the Miata motor. Just think of the possibilities here. . . . .the venerable Kent, the Fit and the Miata, all duking it out. Chassis and engine engine diversity like CSR and DSR, without the killer motor costs. Way cool!
_______________________
CornerSpeed
1979 Van Diemen Club Ford
PCalhoun
From the proposal:
"No engine modifications, only standard engine rebuilds using stock parts allowed.
Stock Honda Fit flywheel and clutch
HPD oil pan and dry sump lubrication system, available in kit form from HPD"
Within my sphere of knowledge I haven't heard any objection on sealed motors. Who by the way would you suggest seal engines? Anyone but Quicksilver? The system in the pro series seems to be working.
SteveO
Good to know Dry Sump is part of pkg, clutch could be a little worrisome in some environments; i.e. auto-x w/ standing starts.
No problem w/ QS sealing motors, as long as all are treated equally and it is priced competitively being that competition would be non-existant. This is a perfect example of one of those clarification points which will be needed for people to make an informed decision.
Peter Calhoun
Motorsport Manager- Michelin North America, Inc. (retired)
Swift DB1-86 FF1600 (bye-bye 3.12)
2009-10 SCCA CM National Champions
My understanding here is that this is not a Quicksilver deal. Anyone and any engine builder will be able to purchase these engines and kits from HPD. You may do it yourself or use your engine builder of choice.
SteveO
uhh....eye've been out of touch i guess
a while back there was this idea that somewhere somehow someone was eventually going to make more kent blocks........guess this honda thing kills that.....which in many many years to come would kill the class for sure. i'm thinking to donate my crossle now to the smithsonian while the value of the deduction is at max.
what's the wind saying about future kent blocks?
i'm certain that i could get enough gerbils with the right hind leg dimensions to equal the hp and torque curves of the kent too..........but i'm not in favor of going over to formula gerbil just because a kent block is hard to find
heads were hard to find a while back everybody was saying......and then some heads came along
whatever happened to maybe new blocks?
a new block certainly wouldn't cost 12,000.
and i don't give a gerbils ass that ford doesn't support our class these days........other than what's been said here how would honda directly benefit the average owner of a current car.........by having us as an undercard race at any event that honda currently supplies engines?.......by sponsoring the FF runoffs race with a nice fat donation to the SCCA to offset half of all entry fees......by paying for one of the test days at runoffs......it seems to me that other than the legwork that honda is doing before the fact - and making engines - after the fact honda is saying nothing just like ford does now.
Last edited by EYERACE; 07.22.09 at 9:02 AM.
Try to look at it over a longer period of time. perhaps then it will make obviou sense. FF isn't the stepping stone it was in its' heyday. Most people in FF have either spent a long time in the class or plan to spend a long time in the class.
How many rebuilds on the kent you already have before you would have been better off with the Fit engine and one rebuild? 5 maybe 6???
If you just ventilated a kent or don't already have one you would probably be ahead of the game less than two years from now.
Honda Deal
This deal would look good in other parts of the world as well, and I think its about time for a change, one of the things that has stopped change in the past has been agreeing on a world wide engine, the honda would appear to fit that bill, plus it will have a long production life. the added bonus as I see it, would be that Honda would give some support, Ford couldn't give a rats A about FF, and have done so for about 20 years, I still like the idea of being able to work the engines yourself, rather than spec engines, we have spec sealed engines here in NZ with our Toyota single seaters, and it appears to me that who wins depends on who gets the good ECU, and that the level playing field may have a slight lean, plus I think that working on the car hones in your racing skills in the long run, gives you a better understanding, that said, there will always be and always has been cheque book racers, just look to the past, most racers were very well heeled, so I say onwards and upwards.
Roger
as to above:::"whomever gets a good ECU"
In FE, there are random ECU checks-the code supposedly has checks built into it to monitor for any altered code. Doesn't take much to make a universal locked ECU code for the engines.
jim
For those of you unfamiliar with technology creep, ask yourselves how many of the FF competitors at the 2008 Runoffs were running non-aluminum heads. Ask how many of the FC's in the USA are going to continue to run a 15.5 pound flywheel and old cam profile. How many FF's or CF's are running 20 pound flywheels?
It matters not what class you run, when a rule changes, it forces all to comply or be happy running in the back of the grid.
Gee, what a great idea, spend $12K on a $12k race car to make it a $12K race car. And THAT is supposed to revitalize the class???? Does anyone understand sunk cost?
Even a math challenged speed crazed pimple faced hot shoe (or even a NASCAR fan) can figger that one.
If someone truly wanted to revitalize the class, they'd put a little risk capital of their own into the project, supply engines and reconfiguration kits at cost or below cost and sell the rebuilds and parts to recaitalize. Like GE and Pratt do with jet engines. All I see is another shop or 2 trying to increase their revenue streams by creating a new revenue stream.
But hey, it's a capitalistic world and I'm a capitalist so I wish them all the luck in the world. I just hope their expected unit sales are in line with current financial realities.
Greetings from the World of Spec-ness
When we in Spec Racer converted to our Ford engine/drivetrain package the cost was about $8,800, every penny of which was passed on to the resale value of Spec Racers -- going from about $8,000-$10,000 up to $16,000 to $20,000+.
So, could a good Swift DB1, which goes for roughly $13,000-$15,000, end up reselling as a Honda FF for as much as $27,000?
Given that FF is not a totally spec class, this isn't likely.
Just something else to consider.
New photos from HPD of the car with the Fit engine installed...
The way I look at it is this, if my car is a $10,000 car without an engine, and will need a minimum of $6000 to put a race-ready lump (and a regional one, at that) including oil pan, starter, starter bracket, oil pump, etc, and the costs of a rebuild after 40 hours of track time is upwards of $4-5k—and my $10,000 still isn't worth $21,000 in anyone's math—then I'm already most of the way to the new engine kit. And I am not looking at another $4k rebuild every year to 2 years. Amortized over a couple of seasons, my cost to race is substantially less than that of a Kent car.
And as shown in the FC world, the updated engine cars DO have more value in the long run than the old engine cars.
These aren't spec cars. I don't expect to get my entire cash outlay back when I go to sell the car. Apples to oranges...
Sorry Greg, but if you look at racing as a econometric investment model, you are in the wrong hobby. It's not unlike a golf or a bowling league. You just want to have fun for a decent "long term" cost. I don't think many look to see how much they can get for their bowling ball or golf clubs at the end of the season. I like the engine concept, but don't know what it will do for any open wheel class in the US. But an ROI is not a calculation that is ever used club racing.
Reply With Quote
