DB1 Side Impact

[preform resources]

The use of peel ply is to enhance secondary bonding,however if you are reinforcing an existing substrate you would have no need for peel ply as the surface is already established so you would put your new kevlar/carbon etc. on over the old surface that why the surface must be free of paint ,roughed up with sandpaper and cleaned with solvent before laminating then do all your lams at once. Peel ply is used between layers when you debulk the initial layers of reinforcement and subsequent layers /cores would be applied in a seperate operation or if you were bonding anothe piece of structure /brackets etc.secondarily.
Dave Craddock

[Josh Pitt]

here is a picture of the backend of the formula first and what penetrated my cockpit.
my foam seat got much more impact than i first realized. i took the seat out of the car today, and just was thankful the object coming into the cockpit had that cage.
without it, i imagine it would have gone through my foam seat like a spear.
bead seat is going in as a replacement for sure.
i will post pictures of the other mods to the car when they are done so others can get ideas on what, if anything, they want to do to help this type of impact.

[Bill Bonow]

That's still pretty pointy (my .02).

The majority of FV and FST constructors fab up something pretty much as Richard Pare discribed. The Evolution FST has pretty long vertical tubes that extend back much further.




Again, they are described in the FV/FST world as "shift guards", but if made correctly, they could make life safer.

[Tom Irwin]

I had done a lot of work on this car. Including repairing this corner in 2003. Those of you who know what your looking at can see the kevlar.
This car has Kevlar (or what is an Aramid fabric trade name) installed on both side pods. By the mfg. of the parts. It is safe to say who ever built them did what was called for. Two plies 5oz. "Kevlar
Attachment 7966
I have read the posts, and agree with most of the recomendations and disagree with some.I will say that "preform" is "on spot" and do use epoxy as 1st. and only choice when working with Aramids.
My experience in advanced composites began in the mid 70's after leaving Gulfstream and spending 25yrs. with an airline as a composites tech. Then full time race car bodywork with helicopters thrown in. Now I'm GM of Zicron Composites & Laminates. The resins we used to do MD-11/etc. engine inner cowls where designed to use with Kevlar or prepregs. And are not readily available.
My findings from doing bodywork repairs is that most all of it is done with two kinds of resin.
Vinyl or poly esters and the Kevlar laid up with epoxy.
It's all in the weave! The pic of the DB-1 is a common plain weave. If you want a safe ply schedule go with a 5 or 8 harness cloth.
Attachment 7967
I still do all kinds of work at my home cave for the shear maddness of it. After work tonite I was going over this weekends work. 2 DB-2 noses, 2 WRF-1 fenders, 2 DB-1 noses, & ordering some stuff for Autocons Creation LMP1 car.

[Purple Frog]

Anybody look inside the nose of a FB Speads? Ouch. How do yo spell shish ka-bob?

[Josh Pitt]

This forum is great because there is alot of infomation shared, and it never turns into who knows more than who, and childish name calling like i see on so many forums.
this forum is made up of racers who help eachother on and off the track.
that is going to be the point of this post for me.
I now see that my car did in fact have kevlar on the sides, for that i am happy, but i also know first hand, that the kevlar upgrade is not sufficient to prevent a cockpit penetration. I am sure that it helped in some way, just as my old foam seat helped in some way (its smashed at the point of impact), though i know the bead seat would be better.
I guess my question is how much protection is sufficient?
kevlar is better than no kevlar, but i can walk out into my trailer, or go look in the mirror at my side, and see that its not enough.
I am going to go the route of steel.
I am likely going to have some verticle bars welded into the cockpit area, and use some sheets of aluminum as well.
I dont think there are many things that will prevent something as in my incident from coiming through the side of the car, but i am looking at the possibility of getting t-boned by the front of a car at speed. thats what i want to have more protection from.
I think there are many ways to help with this issue, kevlar is an additional layer, but it obviously is not sufficient IMO.
lets figure out more ways to keep all of us safer in these car in this type of event.
the verticle bars on the back of the forumla first looks like a great solution.

[Josh Pitt]

.......

[racer27]

Problem I see is with weight...

I believe allot of guys don't make some of these saftey mods, not because of the cost or effort, but because they want to keep the car close to min weight in order to remain competitive.

If the min weight were 50lbs higher (Just to throw an # out there), I would install almost all the great preventitive measures suggested in this thread. My car would sport more Kelvar, more aliumiumn, steel (Where appripiate), More padding, better seat support, bigger fire system, bars in cockpit area, etc...

Racing can not be made 100% safe... however there are proven changes (Mostly available at low cost) that can be made to make the sport safer. A safer sport, should encourage more particiaption, both by existing racers and potential new racers. Finding ways to make the class/sport more appealing is something we always need to be striving for. We are competing with the perception of tin tops being safer.

I personally am going thru my car this winter and making incrrementail improvments (Seat, Kevlar, Padding), but am not doing ALL that I know can be reasonably done, due to not wanting to add the extra weight. As rules are written today, unfortunatly this is a compromise we have to make to remain competitive.

In addition, you don't want to simply mandate addition of certain weighty improvements as part of the rules. Then you will have a situation where racers will spend big dollars to save that weight elsewhere (Uprights, etc), increasing the cost of racing.

[stephen wilson]

My 2c. When I do a bead seat, I plan on using aluminum sides to contain the seat. IMO this is a must so the beads don't bear directly on the frame tubes and "split" around them in an impact. If I fasten these sides to the frame with screws/rivets it should give some protection, even though the fasteners may be in tension and pull thru. With 90 deg. flanges at least the perimeter would be in shear.

[Brian]

I'm tall and fat (6'-2" and 220 lbs) so the first thing I do to try to fit into a FFord is take the seat out and put it in the attic. I usually then make up an aluminium seat so that I'm not sitting directly on the fuel cell cover. For whatever reason, I make it kind of like a NASCAR seat with big sides welded to the back, to stiffen the back and to hold in the insert if I ever make one to fit a smaller driver. I never really thought about it, but the sides of the seat are deep enough to completely protect my sides, usually from around my hips up to my chest. I make the seats from at least .062" 6061-T6, so that they are stiff, and they will act as pretty excellent intrusion protection for your soft bits like kidneys, etc. Food for thought, easy to do if you have some aluminium sheet and a Tig welder, etc. I will probably rely on the Kevlar sides that I'm going to install in my RF85 because with that car, even my aluminium seat won't fit...

Brian

[Steve Maxwell]

The proper combination of composite materials, located and laid-up properly can be as strong if not stronger than aluminum in this application. It is true that composites can't substiute metals in certain applications but this application is favorable to aramid(Kevlar)/glass. The antiballistic protection used by the military is constructed with many layers of glass and/or aramid. Would you end up with heavier body work? Perhaps. If you go adding alu. sheets and steel bars you will definately add much more weight for the similar amount of protection.

MY .02 (obviously)

SEM

[stephen wilson]

Steve,
Thats' true. I just thought that If I need something to contain a bead seat, it might as well serve another purpose.

[azjc]

An interesting product... Just happened to see it on TV yesterday:

http://www.alulight-america.com/lwsmain.htm

[na94]

So, what I would like to know is that if you are going to put down 3 layers of kevlar, should each layer be cured individually, or should the whole job be done in one shot? If using the home-made pre-preg method, this would seem fairly simple.

The use of peel ply is to enhance secondary bonding,however if you are reinforcing an existing substrate you would have no need for peel ply as the surface is already established so you would put your new kevlar/carbon etc. on over the old surface that why the surface must be free of paint ,roughed up with sandpaper and cleaned with solvent before laminating then do all your lams at once. Peel ply is used between layers when you debulk the initial layers of reinforcement and subsequent layers /cores would be applied in a seperate operation or if you were bonding anothe piece of structure /brackets etc.secondarily.
Dave Craddock

[Garey Guzman]

I thought that DB1 (my old car) had kevlar in the side panels but since my grandpa started calling me senile when I was 5 years old, I was second guessing my memory.

Tom, you are the king! (king Tom - nice ring to it)

[R. Pare]

..... FVs had exposed pointy ends and tube frame front and rear structures for more than 40 years before I joined the CRB; Formula Fords for over 35 years, and F500s for at least 20 years. So please don't try to pin this on me. Stan

Geez, Stan. Learn to read! Nothing in my post stated any such thing!

The rest of your post is pure delusion as to what really happened to get the rules reinstated, and not worthy of comment any further...


To everyone else:

We've posted many times that we feel that 2 layers of Kevalr is nowhere near enough, based on a direct comparison to aluminium in both thickness and tensile strength. Our basis for that opinion is that encapsulating the kevlar fibers in hardened resin has to substantially decrease the ballistic cloth characteristics of the material and make it behave more like any other solid material (someone who actually knows the changes, feel free to correct me if I'm way off the mark!) 2 layers of the required kevlar is more likely equivalent to about .020 or so of aluminium if this theory is correct. We've also seen way too many incidents where something has seemingly easily penetrated these kevlar panels when they probably should not have done so.

If this is all correct, the minimum number of layers should be increased to either 5 or 6 to get the performance closer to that of .060" of aluminium, and even more if your wallet and minimum weight can stand it. Champ Car and the IRL both require a minimum of something like .125" thick material in one layer, and this year the IRL is adding a thick layer of Zylon (??? - the same fiber being used for the wheel tethers, I believe) to the sides of all tubs. Granted, those cars get hit a heck of a lot harder than we ever will, but you can see where the rest of the industry is heading.

The new Citation FB will have a rear attenuator that will also be adaptable for use on regular gearboxes.

[Steve Maxwell]

Richard,
You are correct. I agree that the layers of kevlar need to be increased in the rules. In my first post on this topic I suggested 3 layers in addition to the glass. I also recommended vacuum baging to keep the resin content low as, you are also correct, the resin greatly diminishes the kevlar's anti-intrusion capability. There are certainly enough shops around that can do this type of work and it really wouldn't be that expensive versus adding steel bars and sheet alu.

Mr. Wilson,
I agree that that is a good dual use! Go for it and please let us all know how it works out.

NA94,
You can add all three layers at once. There is no need to cure each layer out before adding the next. Make sure to use only enough resin as is necessary to wet out the kevlar completely. Once you get a layer laid down blot the hell out of it with paper towels and then add the next layer. Now, That is for the do-it-yourselfer. Vacuum bagging will produce far better results and will therefore be stronger/safer.

SEM

[Larry]

I like it! Does anyone have any plans showing how I can convert my wife's oven and vacuum cleaner into an autoclave?

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[John Nesbitt]

I like it! Does anyone have any plans showing how I can convert my wife's oven and vacuum cleaner into an autoclave?

Step 1: Send your wife to the mall for the afternoon.

[Josh Pitt]

I am going to comment again to the people who are discussing rules in certain clubs.
I am glad to see some discussion of this issue for rules to protect others in the future from this type of incident, thats a good thing.
I can say w/o a shadow of a doubt(in this instance) kevlar wasnt enough protection.
I now know my car did in fact have the kevlar, and had it installed correctly to the current (SCCA rules in this case).
it was like it wasnt even there. if you guys are talking about more kevlar as the fix, then your issuing a placebo. In my region there are no cars running in this class in SCCA(less than 2), so i dont run with that club in this car. i also see low car counts in the other scca region close to me, so i am not going to be governed by a clubs rules to make the changes in safety that i see are VERY nessecary in this car for this type of incident.

The Bald Spot bead seat has been ordered, much better than foam. the foam took a big hit, and likely saved me from much worse, but there is a better product out there, and i am going to use it for the next time, as there will be a next time if i keep racing.

I am also going to use the aluminum as a bucket for the bead seat to sit in, sounds like a good idea, and an extra layer of protection.
I am also going to see what kind of bars can be welded into the cockpit near my hip area. should not be too hard to have done, and imo will go a long way to prevent intrusion.
some sheets of aluminum are also going to be looked into as a lining inside the car.
if all this makes me weigh 15 lbs more, than so be it, I likely already weigh more than most others in the DB-1, i am 6 feet, and 195 lbs. i fit into the car snugly, and i dont see myself underpowered in the group i run with. i am able to run upfront with all the cars, and most of the drivers are lighter than i am.
You can mandate all the kevlar you want, but your just not really solving much more than giving the appearance of safety, and issuing a placebo.
I know as I was really lucky to be able to walk away, and just have some broken ribs. an inch lower, and my hip would have been crushed, a few inches higher, and my ribs would have been in bad shape(worse than they are).
I am not trying to be mean, but just trying to be a bit more assertive in what i saw with my car in this case, and see when i look in the mirror at my side of my body.

yes the kevlar likely helped, but no way would i just put more of it on the car and proclaim the issue is resolved.
i am glad that attention is being brought to the issue for others. i would hate to see anyone seriously hurt in an impact like this.
the reason for me posting here is to help others be safer, thats all.
Josh

[racer27]

All the best seats I've see have sides. The lap belts come thru a hole in the sides. In order to support the bead seat sides it should rest against secured metal panels. In this case the panels serve 3 purposes,

1. Support seat making it last longer
2. Inrease surface area for seat/driver to crush against (Better then round tubing)
3. Intrusion support of vitial organs

To me, having these panels in this area are worth the mininimial extra weight.

[Garey Guzman]

Josh,
Your incident has probably gotten a lot of us thinking about our own safety precautions. I know I'm thinking about some potential changes to my FF, even though I think your incident was a really rare one. Of course, they're called "accidents" because we have no way to predict them and our only recourse is to learn from the experience of others - thank goodness for this site!

BTW, if you add a bunch of panels, just get an alum head and you'll loose all or most of the added weight!

[R. Pare]

Josh:

Contrary to what you seem to be thinking, adding a few extra layers of kevlar will indeed help, but that is not to be confused with it being a cure-all, as there is no such thing.

As with any minimum safety standards, they are there only as a basic guideline, and you are free to build to any higher standard that you may wish - as long as what you do doesn't run afoul of some other rule set.

For instance: You could easily add welded steel panels all along the sides of the car, but would have to figure out a way to make them pass the stressed panel rule (yes, it can be done).

Also, just because the rules do not yet mandate rear attenuators, you can still use them, and are actually highly encouraged to do so. At some point the Club will see fit to make them mandatory, but we haven't been able to get them there as yet.

The clubs that require rear "shift guards" for FV and push bars for FF's, etc, could easily come up with "standard" designs that incorporate the vertical bar we've discussed (or better yet a pair of bars). In lieu of their being required, there is nothing stopping the car owners from getting together and agreeing to use such designs voluntarily.

It's your butt at risk, so you have only yourself to blame if you decide not to do something and it comes back to bite you later.

[preform resources]

Soory NA didn't mean to confuse you,Yes do all layers at once , what I was trying to say was that in a new construction some guys bag the first layer or two to debulk it then add core and susequent layers . for instance in aerospace because of the number of layers of material a certain amount has to be debulked or you would never get a void free lam,I'm sure Tom Irwin could explain better than me the process. for most race car fixes you would do all lams at the same time ,cleaning of the substrate still applies for adhesion.
Dave Craddock

[Tom Irwin]

I agree with Dave do all the plies at the same time. Surface prep is key to a good bond.
For Sandia Labs I did some repairs with Boron onto aluminum to 747's & DC-10's and the prep was to build a bag on the surface first and do a Phos Anodize etch. Just to prep the surface. It was not fun but it was a low PH acid and low voltage.

But keep it simple here. You do not want to layup over paint etc. I have seen many types of Kevlar weaves in DB-1 side pods even Kevlar roving. The trouble with prepping the previous kevlar is it does not sand or grind well to a "feathered edge" It's like shearing sheep with a weed whacker. When the kevlar gets abraded it goes inert but will calm down when resin is reapplyed. Sometimes when I can't get a good "scuff" in a detailed area I grit blast it with a cheap harbor frieght hand held sand blaster. that can help to get into where the frame goes across the middle of NACA.

Vacuum bagging is the best way to go but pumps are not cheap. I've heard of old refrigerator compressors converted in to vacuum pumps and work. Good excuse to get a new frost free w/ice maker for the garage.

Adding to what you already have in the way of side impact protection is a no brainer.
Kevlar will trap a lot of the outer fiberglass "shards" from comming your way in the event of a puncture. It's not going to stop 1100 lb. fully independently suspended, manned surface to surface missile.

Aircraft Spruce has a lot of the materials and the prices are not that bad for the small quantities you need.

Look for a weave with a harness count the bigger the number the better.

[Tom Valet]

Josh, I got your PM, and I have what you need, but your PM box is full. If you can make space in your in-box I will send you a PM.

Thanks

Tom

[Bob Coury]

See attached picture of my SE-3. I added Kevlar on inside of body panels, and attached 6061-T6 panels to the inside of frame rails.

[Tom Irwin]

Very Nice Bob.

While on the subject of Kevlar the one thing that is a must for working with it is a good pair of shears. There is a lot of them avalible from different sources and I have tried a lot of them. I bought a pair at a S.A.M.P.E. convention about 5 years ago and they are my go to's for cutting kevlar. They are KAI brand modified by Garnard Hill master sharpener at Wolfe Industries in Spartanburg SC. I have only sent them back 3 times for tune up. This company invented the machine to modify the edge. They sell a special Kevlar shear but you can get the same one I have and save $ by ordering the KAI 7280 and have them modified or send you own. Make sure you send them samples of the Kevlar that you will be using. Their website show the stock shear at $60 and I think the mod is around $30 well worth it if your going to do a lot of work on the car. I send them about 10 pairs of my fiberglass shears a year. Here is a pic I took yesterday to show you

This is 5oz. plain weave, I have cut roven Kevlar no problem. I went to a supplier one time and you shoud have seen their faces when I pulled these out and cut it. If you get a pair do not use them on anything else.

Soon there will be another generation of composite cloth other than F/G, C/F, & Aramid (Kevlar) We have a patent on it, It's very cool just wait. I'm working on it.