ah, gotcha. I must've missed that one in the fray.Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner
like Beer said, I don't think the speed display is 100% needed, just purple lights... although that is kinda part of the Purple condition. as far as the other flags, no reason you couldnt make it do 2 colors at once. and lets face it, even if this gets you close enough to the correct flag, it will certainly be an alert to get you looking at the flag stations for full information.
~Matt Clark| RTJ-02 FV #92 | My YouTube Onboard Videos (helmet cam)
So it is your plan to know what rpm for a given gear selection is going to provide 35 mph?
An aggressive racer is going to want to be exactly at 35. The system/display can provide info on where you stand with the 35 target and help you make adjustments.
Brian
Hmm. I was under the impression the Purple35 was just telling you the speed limit was 35 - not that it was displaying my speed.
Well, yes. Either through gear/rpm or my existing data system.
I do not see anywhere in the Flagtronics data/documentation that it can tell the driver their speed. Speed is sent to the controller, but not displayed that I can see.
Either way - redundant since I have a data system.
I case if there is any interest, here is a screen shot of the race directors computer showing the activities of the Flagtronic system at the beginning of the Mid Ohio Champcar event.
More race logs can be found here.
https://champcar.org/web/raceloglive.php
Also, Champcar has a forum, and there is an extensive discussion about the implementation of Flagtronics. If anyone in interested here is that link.
https://forum.champcar.org/topic/205...l-on-schedule/
i asked Flagtronic the question about pacing P35 but did not save the response. The system does not tell you your speed, just that your are going above 35 with some kind of different looking P35 display or something like that. When at or below the std P35 is displayed, so you know you are good.
Race control does know your speed. there are programable time delays to give you time to get to P35. Something like 7 sec for the initial slowing application.
Brian
How about a flashing purple when above speed. Steady when at the correct speed.
The answer to your question is here.
https://www.youtube.com/live/Ruhu1nU...hVMPspZ2oi5kyX
Go to 46:54, watch the FT200 in action. Also keep an eye on Todd's speed. Better yet, watch the entire podcast.
so really, have other things to do rather than sit through 1:22 of podcast to see if a question I have is being answered, but did the SCCA guy ever ask about formula car installations?
Not that I recall.
Basically what I said. Flashes over speed limit. Steady when in compliance.
Still can all be communicated with an LED strip.
Is the proposal to freeze the field at 35mph in the case of a FCY? No opportunity to bunch up the field and get another chance at moving up when it goes green? The camera car in the podcast appears to be maintaining less than the mandated speed or the cars ahead of him are not. Either way he gets his @ss handed to him at the "restart" at about 48:30.
This is one of the many things I dislike about F1.
I do not have any have not used this system.
But... I am one of the poor guys who budgets my races every year. And if they implement it in scca I will buy one and not complain.
I am not paying all this money to show up and race for my $5 trophy. I'm paying it to have a good time. Yes for me that entails winning some races. But I HATE the current status quo at majors/st races where half my time on the track if fcy. I especially hate it *because* I can't really afford to do this. $700 entry fee is a big deal to me. Plus all the other costs. So losing 30-50% of my good time because other drivers can't get it together is not ok.
If it helps with that I'll give you my $250 no problem.
I like the idea that it will give the admins more insight into what really happens. And that it will eliminate excuses. If the club will actually penalize infractions with this system it will most likely be a big help.
I recently instructed at a Chin event at VIR. 2 days worth of driving. Mostly high power fast cars. First time students. Advanced open passing in mixed sports racer/Indy lights/Porsche/etc groups. All the things we blame for our problems on this forum, except worse. But you know what?1 significant incident the whole event. Probably 95+% green.
My point is, this is a problem we need to own in scca. We the racers and we the club. And it starts with admitting that we aren't all Lewis Hamilton, and that what we do is pushing our limits. And maybe we don't need to feel so much pressure to pass that guy that isn't even in our class anyway on a 3 wide downhill reducing corner. So a little accountability would go a long way to changing the attitude, and maybe pushing everyone to a little less risk taking and a little more having fun.
Also maybe I am missing something but I have a couple of engineering comments.
- radio waves pass through fiberglass just fine. Most of the older f/sr cars are fiberglass. So you can mount stuff under that with minimal signal interference.
- if the existing units have CAN output, a custom light strip that takes that and turns it into lights should be really cheap and easy to produce. Put a BF cutout over that one if you want. Or whatever. Doesn't matter if it matches the real flags exactly as long as you know what it means. Seems like Flagtronic could step up here and give us a cheap remote display unit that would work fine for any challenging mount situations. If not someone else can. If it doesn't exist by the time I buy one I might even do it.
As usual just my worthless opinion....
Yes - virtual safety car essentially.
The 'Purple' flag (VSC) is a proposal that is being used in some other series. Just an idea for SCCA at this time.
Implementing Flagtronics doesn't mean you have to implement Purple35. It just makes doing it possible.
purple 35 reminds me of the much maligned "pacer light" system that was used at Indy for a number of years, and made the races real snoozers.
This is kinda interesting that you guys are discussing this like everyone has a 1K dash in their car. I have analogy gauges in my car. The only warning light is low oil pressure since it could cost thousands of dollars if ignored and it is an LED trailer clearance light that cost me less than $10 and I can see it in the bright sun light.
So I am supposed to spend thousands to upgrade to a fancy dash that so a $250 in car display shows what the lack of competent corner workers would do? The real problem in my opinion is the lack of the drivers paying attention and doing the right thing. I am not saying that it is impossible to miss a flag but that usually involves issues like it being blocked by a passing maneuver or inadequate flag movement so the driver can see it.
Matt's mentioning about the brilliant LED boards that are starting to show up at the tracks which I think are great and clearly visible, might be a better solution that a lot of trying to make something that is easier done the simplest an least cost way.
Don't mandate a solution that is costly and possibly cumbersome when equally equivalent and LESS costly approaches are better or available. Maybe those in a position of authority should consider those who just don't have unlimited funds or like tech just to have it.
Ed
Ed, its less about having a 1K dash (and if you find one that cheap now please let me know, I need to upgrade) than it is finding a solution to accommodating that display. If you have room, then no worries.
If you have room for analog gauges, then there's probably room for the FT, but you might have to re-layout the dash or get a smaller tach.
In my case, being a tall guy in a 94 VD, I could never see the analog gauges with that ridiculous mounting location BEHIND the front hoop, so I got an AIM not long after I got the car. But there's no place for that FT in my car.
Well, no. The $250 flag system is standalone. You don't even need power if you use their battery.
BUT, you do need to have visual space available to place the device/it's display.
Many of us do not have that space, so we are trying to find a solution / repackaging / etc. to make it work.
Many of us have data systems. The flagtronics device WILL interface with (but only) the lastest data systems supporting what is a secondary CAN bus. (the primary CAN bus is used for ECU, etc)
That means if we want to use our data screen as the indicator for the flag system, we need to have the latest - which for some of us means thousands to upgrade.
Clear as mud?
A LED strip light system is going to take a programable driver for the LED's AND communicate with FT through CAN. A low volume solution is going to be expensive.
Barring a solution from FT, the most practical and cost effective solution is splitting off the FT200 into two sections. To do a nice job of this I could use two new housings. Sounds like a 3D printing project, as plastic is just fine for this application. Any volunteers?
Brian
Just as an example, now that I have had a short chance to play with video, here is a Facebook link to my onboard from Saturdays race.
While the camera does not capture as well as your eyes in person, it was even more visible from the cockpit. Mainly focus on the first lap with the green boards & how easily you can see them vs. everything else.
Admittedly, I did get a little complacent & was expected the boards to be used for Blue flags at the end, and with the massive closing rate of Nathan in the S5000 on the last lap, those would've been VERY nice.
https://www.facebook.com/MidgetRacer...51537921339817
~Matt Clark
It's not really the latest dashes. For AiM, it's the dashes that have been available for about 8 years, not something brand new. And if you only have 1 CANbus that is used by the ECU, it can still probably be made to function correctly. Again, I'm happy to help people navigate things.
Which AIM dash/data systems out of production WILL work ?
And can you put more than 1 device on the CAN2 bus? (Like Tire Pressures and Flagtronics)
MXL2, MXS/MXG 1.0. Any device that uses RS3 for configuration will work.
Yes, you can put a near limitless number of devices on a CAN network. The issue becomes the protocol writing, but that is not hard to make work. I supply the protocol for the TPMS and Flagtronics for anyone that bought a TPMS from me. If you had something like a Solo 2 DL or MXm with only 1 CAN input and the ECU was using it, I'm 99% sure I can get you a protocol that combines the ECU and FT200 protocols. It depends on the ECU, but I'm happy to help anyone that wants to do it.
I am surprised that no one has complained about a 35 mph purple speed limit. In my experience as a pinto FC driver and assistant-something in the FRP Series, I can tell you it is very hard to drive a car with a 70 mph first gear along at 35 mph. Plus many cars will overheat if held to that pace very long. We always told pace car drivers to try to maintain 55 mph. And, talking to a lot of SCCA starters they also recommend 55 as a speed to approach green flags.
Go out sometime and try to drive a whole lap at 35. Just saying.
YMMV
A low volume production solution would be expensive. I could see using a Pi or Arduino item to implement a strip light interface with CAN. It just needs to be done by someone willing to open-source it as opposed to trying to make a buck. I wish someone would have done that for older AIM systems to add GPS, but you know, companies want to sell stuff.
I'm not sure a remote FT200 display helps much, while thinner, it's still a lot of surface area. Make it 50% wide and 50% tall by using half-size LEDs and reducing the spacing and that might be a lot more palatable. Now THAT would be easily doable by Flagtronics. From a cost perspective, all you'd be adding is a housing for the smaller display. You could even delete the brightness buttons and the sunlight sensor and just let us set the level in the setup. That just leaves having a spot to keep the comms antenna vertical - like velcroed to the inside of a body panel.
I agree. With Trans Am at the Glen, they changed it to 65 mph. That worked very well (and I really didn't expect it to).
Again the purple one points out something we all have missed
So you have to set the car up and learn to drive at 35. I think that is not asking too much.
At a minimum, the emergency works are going to feel more comfortable and get the job done fast.
Brian
With the gearing I commonly use, first at idle is 32. And that the slowest first I use.
Were going to be riding the clutch to stay slow enough.
I know speed is a complaint with workers and open wheel cars. I would say most going through a yellow are doing 60.
If they implement this purple speed idea were going to have to reach a middle ground.
It just struck me that at many facilities it is the track's emergency team that set the criteria for 'hot' tows. IF we want 'hot' tows then they will dictate the speed required.
Brian
Essentially correct. For example, the whole Code 35 thing at VIR came out of Emergency Services. Same at other tracks.
One minor correction: Even under Code 35 etc,. they do not do hot pulls anymore. More like 'lukewarm pulls'.
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
Since everyone is so peaceful in this discussion (a disappointment to the lurkers who like to watch all the fighting), I think that if the CRB is happy with 35 mph zones/laps then they should be happy allowing 5 speeds in FC cars so that the drivers will have a "safety car / purple gear" available to comply.
Someone knows how to poke a bear
Just curious.. what's the 'idle' speed of an FE in 1st? Pretty sure that SRF3 will be able to make it OK.
Steve, FV80
Racing since '73 - FV since '77
get serious
Brian have you lost your mind. The minimum turn speed in a FC at Mid Ohio is about 50-60 mph. And you say just set the car up to run 35 mph. Have you lost your mind or have you simply forgotten simple realities ore do you want everyone to sacrifice performance just so you can say that "we" implemented Flagtronics??
I like that idea and Flagtronics can pay for the conversions!!!!
The reality is the tracks are going to require 35 IF you expect them to do 'warm' pulls. This is going to be the new reality.... you compromise your setup to handle the 35's. Everyone in a given class is in the same boat, so you seek out a competitive advantage by doing a better job of adapting.
If 60-70% of the cars racing find this easy to do, then it is a done deal. Assuming the track insist on 35 or no warm tows, then not complying just means a continuation of the current PC and black flags. Track management does not really care which way you decide to go.
Brian
Gents;
This, plus a remote transponder. There is only so much space in a formula car.
Last edited by Rick Iverson; 09.18.23 at 7:29 PM.
V/r
Iverson
These Purple sessions will need to be extended to retrieve stalled cars.
That may be counter productive.
Last edited by problemchild; 09.13.23 at 8:29 PM.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
RiceRace will offer Consulting Services. Available for Runoffs and beyond!
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
SRF3 can definitely handle running 35 in first gear, with either the old or new transmission. Can see how this would be a problem for formula cars with only 4 gears and taller gear stacks, but they could just set the target speed to 45 (40?) for the wings-and-things group instead of 35 and it'd be fine.
Well, Advanced Fire and Rescue still does hot pulls for VARA at Willow Springs, Buttonwillow, and the dear departed Cal Speedway, and I'm sure everywhere else they go. And they do this without a given speed limit, although you will get an ass-chewin if you blow through the recovery area faster than Craig thinks you should.
The cartek device is very similar to the shift lights I used to have on the car before I got the AIM - made by a company called Revlight, seems to be out of business now, but there are tons of those designs out there.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote