I think the explanation is fine....there's very little that can be done now.
However, now the burning question: WERE YOU REALLY ABLE TO MAKE THE CONVERSION FOR $3k????? Lots of people want to know :D
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I think the explanation is fine....there's very little that can be done now.
However, now the burning question: WERE YOU REALLY ABLE TO MAKE THE CONVERSION FOR $3k????? Lots of people want to know :D
lower end and head 1400
gaskets, waterpump housing, water pump, misc block parts 500
ignition 800
carbs, oil pump, from old pinto
obviously, I have access to some people that built some water pipes, a few brackets, and modified the old exhaust, and built an intake manifold out of some pipe elbows for next to nothing. it has no thermostat or housing
Its not making anything near 180 hp. I had a pinto (from England) that made close to 200, but it might be 165 on a good day.
I just hope it runs for a couple of years, since I will most likely only be racing stohrs and mazdas in the regional and club races
by the way the only machine work I had done was balancing the crank and FW and I turned a flywheel out of a piece of 1.25 steel plate and put the pinto ring gear on it.
I had a linkage problem and it hopped out of 3rd 3 times at its first race. Didn't have the rev limiter set right and the logger has 3 revs at 8610. That was in April, so I am liking the motor alot
R
I add that up to being 2700 buckarooskis!
And some people still believe that the world is flat...............Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Copeland
:rolleyes:
Facts is facts, and you ain't got any to share so far.
Hey, Mr Pare, where are you? Trapped in a time warp? Read Randy Keen's post. WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And yeah, I plan to really, really, rub it in.............You're the one living in a flat world.
Gee... The numbers come out in that range for exactly the reason that I stated before.
Carbs from a Pinto? I don't think so! At least no from any legal (FC, S2, etc) Pinto.
"modified the exhaust? From what? At what original cost? We can assume that the fab work and welding was done for free?
All that you have shown is that that you can hit that sort of number only by getting a lot of stuff for free, and by not making it legal, so please stop trying to present this as if everyone here could do it for the same.:rolleyes:
It was never presented as a legal solution. What the heck do you think 99.9% of this thread has been about.
Go back to sleep.
No, but it was presented as if it were a possibility for every FC owner here, which it most definetely ain't. It's interesting, but it isn't reality.
thomas, go back and read purple frog's post.........slowly. maybe then you'll understand. i suppose that if someone had given rkeen the long block for free you'd be telling everyone they could do it for $1300.
mark defer
I got into this about twelve hours ago after worrying about the drift of the thread all night. Tried to be the peace maker. Tried to take the high road, yadda, yadda, yadda. Thought maybe Copeland would get the hint.
As far as I'm concerned now, Mark you can unlock the cabinet, and somebody let the dogs out! I won't call Doug or Keith and beg them to stop the carnage. :skull:
OBTW...
If Keen's motor cost only $3,000, I'm sure he'd sell it for $4,500 and make a quick profit. ;) Yeah, right. Maybe $6,000? He could build two more fresh ones.
Go down to your local machinist and tell him you want him to build you a custom bilet flywheel for your zetec with a pinto ring gear. And while he's at it he can fab up some nice headers, and an intake... and please keep the cost for all of it under $200. Could you please throw in two webers for free for that custom intake... oh yeah, I'll need a linkage, and a few assorted pipes... Zetec dry sump pan... I promise to put your decals on my car. And, yeah Mr. Machinist, if this works there's about 300 of my closest friends that want the same deal... You're cool with that, right Mr. Machinist?
It's best to keep your helmet on when you present him with that proposal. :) Get real. Figure in the labor costs, even if it's only $50 per hour.
Posting it as if the $3,000 option is real for the average racer is a disservice to those struggling to make decisions and looking for facts.
All this proves just one thing. The so-called experts on this site don't have the rep slash balls slash ego to admit when they're wrong. Just Forget it. I'll build it myself. Then you'll probably tell me I cooked the numbers when I do.
Maybe you can, maybe you can't build a $3000 conversion. The point is completely irrelevant, really.
I don't doubt that someone could build a car and convert to Zetec power on a $3000 shoestring. Just read one of the annual Grassroots Motorsports $2000 Challenges. They buy and sell and trade and barter their way to a $2000 Challenge entry. Cool to read about and contemplate your own solution, but pointless in the real world.
That doesn't help the class in ANY way.
The object is to inexpensively convert a car, using all of the legitimate channels and methods, that can be done en masse by the general racing public. Your $3000 conversion (and wheeling & dealing to acquire parts and labor for free or next to free), is not the way that you can propose to a few thousand Pinto FC owners that they should convert their cars. You need a package price, with real numbers and real expenses, and not trades and barters or buying used/wrecked/salvage equipment to arrive at your final cost.
It's great for Grassroots Motorsports to sell magazines, and fun to follow on the forums, but difficult to sell to the SCCA Competition Board that it is a legitimate solution to an outdated and expensive powerplant.
I was not rying to submit an alternative to the current FC rules, or build motors for people. I am sure the experts have it wired on costs. If you have to buy everything, sell a complete package that works, it costs 8 or 12k or whatever. The motor builders are in a competetive market and aren't overcharging or making huge profits. Thomas and I were talking about this one motor, why it looked like it did and what it cost me. Yes, I have access to maching centers, welders, cnc lathes and it doesn't cost me anything to use them or to have someone build a part for me. I also like building parts, am willing to fix the stuff that I do that doesn't work or fails. And yes, I had a motor that had a titan drysump, dual downdraft webers, 1.88 dia exhaust that I salvaged parts from (English built pro rally motor). I bet a single 390 holley like esslinger uses would work fine and they can make like 300 hp with one. There probably isn't any better way to have motor equality than the way the current rules are. You can make it different by allowing carbs and coming up with a way to run an airbox and restrictors, but it will probably not change the cost much. You can have it open like d-sports but there isn't equality of motors. Those with 90 minute motors are faster than the 2 season ones. I like to mess with the car and motor and putt it around once in awhile. It was a fun winter project and it is a club racer. And the car was built in 1993 with a 1.8 liter zetec for the US zetec series that never materialized and then fitted with the pinto. The zetec was surprisingly easy to fit in the car. It bolts in directly, is lots shorter leaving lots more room in front and isn't as tall making it fit under the existing bodywork, and the intake fit completely inside the frame tubes. But there are lots of details to attend to and it is far from trivial to swap the motors.
I also have my eye on a zetec from 2 yearsago that cost 975 and is complete less ecu. Maybe I will try one with FI
R
The only thing I was saying was that this motor costs $3000. And if this motor can be built for that much then other Zetec conversions could be possibly be built for a lot less than they are being advertised as having to cost. If everyone wasn't so busy trying to shout me down they would have gotten that message! There are those who wouldn't believe it was even possible to put in a $3k Zetec.
I never said once that a $3000 motor like what Keen had was the solution to all our problems in FC. I think I made the remark it would be nice if we could have a 3K carb Zetec or shouldn't we try to go this way somehow.
If you read my first post I was only suggesting that we should explore carb Zetecs! Man can you guys can get off point...if everyone wasn't so busy slamming others down and saying lets let the dogs out (how mature).....
okay..maybe I shouldn't have made the remark about dumping the Pinto...that seemed to upset quite a few. But truth sometimes is painful.
Thanks, but I don't need any hints. I am not afraid.
thomas, by your reasoning you might as well say you can do it for $00.00. you just have to find the right people to con into giving you ALL the parts and labor for free. and i have no doubt that someone could make that happen. however, if you're presenting it as an option to the current engine situation [which was your original premise], you need to present it using normal retail pricing that could be obtained by anyone, anywhere and assuming no freebies. it's the only way to present it as a valid option. think about it, when you're comparing the $3000 conversion and saying that it's cheaper than 1 pinto rebuild, you're not discounting that rebuild with freebies are you?
mark d
Let me ask this question. What do you think is easier to achieve....parity between two dis-similiar engines (Pinto-Zetec) or parity between two similiar engines (carb Zetec and ECU Zetec)?
Lets say for the sake of arguement the we had a parity formula between carb Zetec and ECU Zetec.
If carb Zetec were allowed and Keen was able to build his engine and install it for 3K then the possiblity exists for others to do so. Don't it? Not everyone might take this route. I probably won't because I don't have access to machine shops and machine equipment like Keen has.
What would it take to achieve parity between carb Zetec and ECU Zetec? What would a carb Zetec cost? Less than en ECU one wouldn't it?
This is more like I was hoping the thread would go. I don't have all the answers. That's why I started this thread. Not to get bashed. But to explore options.
Thomas:Quote:
Originally Posted by smc
I suggest that you re-read your first post - the claim of a $3000 total cost conversion is right there.
I suppose that had he managed to get everything for free, you would have posted it a potentially free conversion!:rolleyes:
As to your latest question : yes, it most probably would be easier to get parity between a carbed engine and the same engine with FI, and is worth looking at in the future.
the thing is we HAVE TO achieve parity between the pinto and the zetec because we are not about to disinfranchise 100s of pinto owners. between the pacific and east coast series, i'm sure that it will be accomplished at least close enough that no one feels they have to have the "other" engine. and as chas stated, the carbed version has been dicussed and i'm sure the possibilty is that it will be considered at a later date.
mark d
I made the suggestion we allow restricted Zetec (carb or ECU) in 2008 (the unrestricted was a typo) because I figured by that time nearly everyone would have had to rebuild their Pinto's. Why not just get a carb Zetec instead? Then you would have an engine that'll last for for 3-4 seasons instead of one. Probably would cost less than having your Pinto rebuilt. Unlike some who seems to get a discount I haven't been able to get my Pinto's rebuilt for anything less than $5500. Include shipping and we are talking nearly $6000.
Surely I could get a carb Zetec into my car for less? Maybe it'll cost more than $3000 but I bet less that another rebuild and less than an ECU Zetec would. Maybe if I did what Keen did I could get it into my car for $3000. But like I said that route ain't for everyone.
What if I'm not interested in running pro races? Why do I need an ECU Zetec for? It was only one the suggestions I made. And not the only one. Hardly would that suggestion disenfranchaise 1000's of Pinto owners (me included) unless they really wanted to keep running Pinto. Guess I just assumed everyone who was smart enough would want to get rid of their Pintos. So I'm bad. But we are already working on a Pinto parity aren't we? So what's the big deal? You don't have to take my suggestion to dump all Pintos literally though I won't mind tossing mine.
Before I posted I had no idea they were even looking at a carb Zetec solution. They don't tell anybody what's going on so how is anyone to know? They don't tell us they change ECU maps they don't keep us informed of anything.
from my experience, your rebuilds are way over average. over the last 6 seasons my rebuilds [1 per year] have ranged from $3148-$4419 with an average of $3752. shipping adds another $200-$250 per. knowing what it would cost me to convert [no freebies, etc] for an elite prepped zetec, new headers, oiling system, etc , etc, i have no desire to convert at this point. several other guys i race with feel the same way. they also feel that $3500 to $4000 is not a lot to spend on engine costs per year to race these cars at this level. that being said, if i ordered a new car, it would definitely be zetec powered.
mark d
Maybe if the car had been re-homologated as FS this broo-ha-ha would have been less vindictive.
It appears to me that Thos. was asking to see if others were interested in pursuing an alternative to reduce the cost of racing. As a tinkerer, this kind of stuff has some appeal to me in order to have the satisfaction of performing a successful conversion and being able to go faster with additional engine longevity as plusses to the effort.
I wouldn't have had an issue had the modified car ran in the correct class (NOT FC). Kinda nice to see someone innovate and check the results on the track.
Granted it was a mistake to enter the car in FC and should have been RFA'd by the Tech group. It is their responsibility and they have the authority to DQ a car or at least start the process. For Tech to blatantly allow a non-compliant car is a disservice to their office and reduces the repect others have of the Tech group. Especially if they are volunteers. If you aren't going to do the job correctly, then I don't need your 'donation' of time.
Can you imagine what would happen if a corner worker did not come to the aid of a driver/car in distress just because maybe it was too far to get to him and the driver 'looked ok'? Would that worker remain in service on the corners? Would you want him to continue to 'donate his time'? No, thank you. I want someone who will perform the job they volunteered to do in a professional and competent manner.
I have witnessed a couple of incidents when either a Chief Steward or other High-PooBah has had an arrogant attitude like that which was expressed to Douglas and really had to keep from lashing out for fear of retaliation. Not fair to anyone and diminishes the respect for the position.
Some years ago, a guy ran GY instead of spec Hoosier as required at Rd Atl in CF. A quiet mention of the issue to a tech guy was made and they took over from that point to correct the situation with no further action on my part. So not all Tech folks are like those left coasters. My experience is that (at least in SEDIV) they truly want to help keep drivers safe and have a level playing field for all entrants and do not have an axe to grind when they question the prep of a car.
Bryan Cohn,
Please email me with details. I do not believe you are correct in your statments about Pocono. I was the person who went to the CS weeks in advance of the Pocono National asking if we could run a restricted Zetec in FC for no points in the hope of gaining practical experience with a restricted car. The CS finally ruled that the car must run as an FA because every FC competitor was asked and one would not agree to letting the car run in FC. As I recall and I hope Bob Wright jumps in when he gets back from Watkins Glen, to aid in our data gathering the CS moved FA into the group with FC and FF. The restricted zetecs ran as FA's and were not suppose to gain points. The results on the Tri Regions site reflect this, see link below. If an error was made in points keeping then I'm glad you straightened it out but don't come down on drivers or stewards who are actaully trying to help the class. Bob Wright sent a summary of the weekends events to SCCA in which he reiterates that the car was run as an FA and did not take points. Look at the letter for more information. If you do not have it anymore I have a copy which I'll be happy to forward.
Please keep in mind this was done in the open, was discussed in the drivers meetings, was paid for by SCCA competitors and was done in the interest of bettering the class. It was not intended to tarnish the club, class or any individual. Frankly I'm disappointed but not surprised that's the view the club took.
http://www.triregionracing.org/triregionresults.html
So far I've kept out of this converstaion in the interests of self-preservation. But I just have to pipe up now! Rick Johnson I just want you to know that I take exception (as well as umbrage) to your wise crack about "left-coasters". I am in the unique position of being a driver at some of the Pacific F2000 series events, and chief steward at those events I do not drive in. Now I'm not claiming to be perfect, Rick but I always do my level best. If you ask some of the Pacific F2000 guys, they will tell you that I am not shy about handing out penalties when they are approriate. I have done everything in my power to make sure that all of our cars are legal, including those of the team I drive for. It is very easy to make generalisations about any group of people. In future, though, you may want to put your brain in gear and do a little reflection before abusing a group of people because of the alleged actions of one or two. Now you can get back to your debate.
Sincerely,
El Guapo
Rip and gouge, Guapo. Hell, it's Friday night. I did not get to go race because of work:mad: . I may not be the only one confronted with this situation, but will make the most of it by 2nding the Guapster with respect to being reasonable in the interpretation of rules given the situation.
This is the kind of crap that made me sell my car. So much misinformation and self serving BS. Shame on many of you and you know who you are - grow the F up.
Chas, you are 100% correct on the Pocono thing, and Bryan you are quite misinformed. I was one of the cars that came to compare restricted Zetecs to FC. The CS rightly had second thoughts and asked both of us to reclassify as FA we agreed and no one lost any points. Simple as that. We ran our FA legal cars detuned at a disadvantage. No one was harmed except us, period. I generally respect your opionins, so I look forward to you eating humble pie on this issue - you had the facts wrong.
As for the NORPAC situation, it is unfortunate. I am interested in seeing how a carb'ed Zetec measures up. We evaluated that as an option while we worked on getting the Zetec in as a FC option. We felt that it would create too much contention, and it now appears we were right. I would like to see it as an option for the pre 1998 cars myself, but agree it should be tested fair and square as a FS.
Sean
I would like to remind everyone that open wheel racing is on life support. We need to work together and not try to divide. The SCCA may well become the Mazda Owners Club of America otherwise. Let's try to limit the negativity it is killing our base support.
I would like to apolgize for any damage to the sport, SCCA, or competitors tht I caused. I did discuss running the car with some people in the SCCA and competitors at the end of last years SCCA meeting. It was presented to me as a rather mundane and not too uncommon thing as long it was done staight up without any deception. I figured sharing pit space and parking the cars 20 feet apart was pretty sraight up., No mention was made of any harm or illegality. It is certainly my fault for not doing more investigation. It is the only SCCA race at Pacific raceways, and to run FA you have to be in prospec trim and there is no regional there. If there would have been a regional it would have been run as FS as I always do. I have no use for NORPAC points so running someway without points would have been fine. Most of the people I race with in regionals anyhow so it is not important enough to me to ever do again. I just wanted to race and give the local region the entry fee. Again my apologies, sorry to not have seen all of the problems involved. I am especially worried about any problems for the SCCA, I believe that they were just trying to get people racing and I know how difficult it is here for them to survive. Most of them put out a lot of effort
to make it possible for those of us who drive.
Randy Keen
Hello, All.
I would like to pose a newbie question.
I am purchasing a 1984 Reynard SF84 roller. I am trying to put together, in my thoughts, a competitive, cost effective engine, gearbox package that I can install in the car. Is the Zetec solution available for this car, and at what price can I expect ? I have seen the Zetec motors on ebay for as little as $350 but cannot find the pinto motor very readily. I do know that I cannot just buy a stock motor and stick it in, but I would like to try to way the pro's and con's of either engine, hopefully utilizing someones experience. Any thought's or advice would be most greatly appreciated.
Jeff Handley
cainesgrandad@yahoo.com
Jeff, my opinion: I would be inclined to keep it somewhat original, since there's a chance it may appreciate in value as it becomes more desirable amoungst the vintage racers. Hard to tell about it's future value, but it was a popular chassis for some famous drivers. Might be a good vintage car some day.Quote:
Originally Posted by jiffyh
Randy,Quote:
Originally Posted by rkeen
I believe the difference in what occurred here and the preceeding instances revolves around the "why" the car was raced, even though you were forthright in allowing that the car was not legal. When Chas and Sean ran the Zetec cars before they were official in FC it was to determine their innate abilities compare to other FC cars in a competition environment. This was a fact finding mission. Same thing when others have run a configuration not to the rules but to get some useful data. Always the powers-that-be were aware of the issues and intent, and points were not a consideration. Chas and Sean were made to run in FA. Other instances have occurred where the "illegal" car was withdrawn so no points, or contingiencies, were allowed. (There can also be some issues regarding contingiencies as sometimers they are awarded based on how many competitors are in the class. If a contingiency were given based on a(some) illegal car(s) filling out a class the sponsor would be most irate, and with good reason.)
I will say it is not a mundane or common thing to see and usually there are sound reasons, other than the driver simply wants a place to race his bastard car. And, the logic that the region/division needs the entry fee is not sound, IMO.
I can see no reason you should have run the car as it did not fit any class (other than FS) and you were not involved in any fact finding that would lead the Club to a better decision making posture. It was not an instance of the Club approving the inclusion of the car for "Club-oriented" reasons. It appears the reasons to run the car were personally motivated. That, Sir, is not enough.
I appreciate the apology and understand you were not aware of the ramifications such an action could cause. Probably the stink raised was escalated by other factors in the methodology used to present the exercise.
If you are running in the midwest -- keep the car original and run in the Great Lakes FC/CFC Challenge powered by e-formula news.com" and run against cars built prior to 1990 and where a 84 is relatively competitive and you will not have to deal with the issue of becoming obsolete - our rules will remains table. We had our first race week end at Grattan which was drew about 10 cars for CFC and I believe 5 for FC. Join the fun. We had several Reynard 87-90 SF, a Crossle 63F, a Crossle 68F and a Swift. Come out and play. If you have not yet pruchased the Reynard -- give me a call and pick up a ready to race Crossle 63F with a fresh motor. I can be reached at 248-797-7636 or mikeep63@yahoo.com
David Keep
Crossle 63F-1
Reynard 90SF
Jeff: I think I would explore the possibilities of fitting a Z-tec if you could get the technical support to adapt it to the car. Also consider the options you have for finding a place to run with the Z-tec engine. I recently purchased a 88 VD FC/CFC and have NO intentions of ever running it in SCCA. I run it once per month at Hallett OK 2 days 10 fifteeen minute sessions for $230/ weekend. When I look at the cost of parts for the Pinto engine I hope nothing breaks. As far as resale goes there is more to life than appreciation. I have a modified FV sitting in the shop that I have spent about $5K on in the past couple of years. If it sells for $4K I will be lucky but I had a lot of fun with that car and would like to see somone else join the race experience and buy it for a starter car. Having fun costs money wether its a $20K bass boat, a race car or membership in the local country club. Besides having a Z-tec engine in your car would assure you of immediate introductions to everyone where ever you raced !! Whatever you decide just have fun racing.
Dave
El: (since we don't know your real name....)
Sorry that you took personal exception to the comment. I should have narrowed it down more to the Tech group who allowed the car to participate and the Chief Steward who gave the extremely arrogant and uncalled-for vitreous response to a member' s letter.
My comment should not have appeared to be such a generalization.
I can assure you that we have a couple of arrogant Poo-bahs on the right coast too. Some are not even Poo-bahs.
It just really irritates me when those folks get so power-hungry in this venture, which is a hobby after all. Perhaps the reason they remain in the amateur side of officialdom is because their attitudes and actions show such disrespect for the sport that the wouldn't last 5 minutes in a professional organization.
People should be treated with respect on each side, both entrant and official, whether at a DS, Regional or National. After all, what will be the importance of any of this be in 10 or even 5 years? We are not making world history here are we?
If we need to discuss this issue further, it might be better to do so thru email rather than do so on Apexspeed. My email address is rickjohnson@mindspring.com
Just back from WGI...
Bryan- Chas has it as correct as I can remember. We met all the rules when the car(s) went on track. The fact was, the Chief Steward worked with us to make sure we met those rules and still were able to gather data. The cars were driven by Sean, Al Guibord, and me, entered at our own expenses with no expectation of points, trophies or anything other than to gather data for something we believe in. It was done completely in the open with the knowledge of all competitors.
There was, and continues to be, a lot of effort and money being put into adapting a Zetec MOTOR package to the FC class by a number of people. This thread has brought out some really absurd statements and some very intelligent replies by people who know a whole lot about these things.
There are two professional race series operating right now producing parity data from which club SCCA will benefit. I believe we can get it right and strengthen the FC class in the future. Throwing out red herrings like the start of this thread in public forum does nothing to help achieve that end.
Dave,
I have been exploring the possibiltiy because of the availability of the zetec. It seems to me that it would take much less to get a Zetec race ready than it would to get a pinto motor race ready. From what i read in the GCR, the Zetec is a legal motor to run. Am I missing something?
Jeff
Red herring? Bob, the engine costs 3 grand. It was a carb Zetec. That is fact. Nothing you or anybody else can say can change that. Accept reality.
Also, Randy, you don't have to apologize to any of these bums! What you did was fully out in the open for everyone to see. None of them were even there at Kent so anything they have to say comes straight outta their as#!
It wouldn't have made any difference how I presented the carb Zetec proposal because any way it was presented would have set certain people off.
ONCE AGAIN THOMAS. yes, it costs $3k ... IF you can get all the same deals and freebies and have the same expertise as the guy that did it. other wise it is not reality. on 2nd thought, nevermind. it is obvious you just can't grasp what everyone is trying to tell you.
mark d
I can grasp just fine. Just don't want to drag anyone else into this. Time to stop kicking this dead horse. On this issue, I'm never going to agreed with you and you're never going to agreed with me. Let's just end this now for everyone's sake. Hope everyone can see it's time.
If any one is interested in a real world zetec conversion from a pinto powered car .......... I have first hand CARNAL KNOWLAGE of this process ....... we JUST finished the process ....we started from a RF98 VD .. and even that was a process (As some of you know) ... As many of you know we tried to save any $$ we could so I'm pretty confident it cant be done realisticly for less ....AND probably it would cost more as a turn key upgrade ....... even selling off pinto stuff etc .....which we did as well as much as we could
In PRO spec ........either COOPER or PACIFIC ........ can't be done CHEAP .........and no where near $3K ..........Im afraid to add it all up really..........but THAT being said it is a really nice upgrade and we are extremely glad we did !! and to all those who helped THANK YOU !!!.. you all know who you are !! and there were many !!
(the carb version might save some $$ but still its not CHEAP...but still well worth it)
now back to our regularly scheduled debate ......... if any would like to know what it took ..... feel free to email me ........eventually we will have a pretty complete document describing with pix and verbiage the entire process ... also in the proces we "LEARNED ALOT" that will be described as well :p
Don't stop now!! What am I going to do tomorrow??
I look foward to coming home, kicking back, cracking open a cold one, putting on my farorit slippers and reading the next page of this "debate":D .
Not wanting to call anyone out or corner anyone but when the former VD importer to the USA put up the prices, not that he had to, and the guy that built it ,both said that it will cost from 8K-12K to do this there is no way that the 3K # can be defended?
But it is a free country and we all can have our own ideas, even all the folke on the left coast!:rolleyes:
What you'd be missing would be the time, effort and cash that would go into converting the 84 roller, which would never be competitive vs. newer cars. An 84 Reynard would fit very well into the Great Lakes series, which is run right in your neighborhood by a GREAT group of people. Invite yourself to an event at Waterford, Mid Ohio, IRP, or Gingerman ASAP, I'm sure somebody in the area has an extra crew pass or two available. Every person I ever met racing back there was always more than willing to help me with information for both preperation and driving. Spend the conversion dollar$$$$ on the track, not in the garage (the grins are bigger on the track for most of us :D :D :D !)Quote:
Originally Posted by jiffyh
Ditch this thread, and start following the newer one on Zeetech Solutions...
Dave
thanks, dave
I did jump to the other thread and also have decided to keep the car as close to original as possible. This being my first car, I want to put it together RIGHT and gain experience. I may move up to a newer car in the future, say maybe a year or 2, but for now I want to learn as much as possible about the reyanard. I'm sure anything that I learn along the way can be applied elsewhere. I'll just keep looking for the right parts to keep this one original.
The pinto motors are not in great abundance from what I have seen, but weighing it all out it is the best way to go for me. Anyone out there that can share resources would be a welcome contact indeed.
Thanks
Jeff
So...does anybody know what heads will bolt up to a Pinto bottom end? Seems like UN-restricting the Pinto has a LOT MORE potential applications than do conversions of older chassis to Zetec power.
Cosworth YB. S2’s used this engine configuration in the ARCL series years back. I think Ford sold about 20,000+ in various street cars. Seems to be a popular kit car motor in Europe. Only the aux. shaft needs to be changed (or modified) to accept a different gear (if I remember correctly.)
Feel free to give me a call or an e-mail - I am local to Detroit and race both the Waterford Hills Series (6 week ends a year) and the Great Lakes Challenge. It is a real good group of people and we do help each other out. In the short term, if you want to come out -- my team partner and I are racing at Waterford on the 24th and Mid Ohio on the 1st and 2nd of July. On the 24th, going to have to decide weather to bring the Crossle or the Reynard but At Mid Ohio I will bring the Reynard out assuming I get it finished. I can be reached at 248-797-7636 or at mikeep63@yahoo.com. I would be happy to add you to the crew list for either event
David Keep
Mark, even us CRAZY PEOPLE gotta take a vacation sometime! You guys actually worn me out. Didn't think it could be done myself. Call me luney, but I still say a $3K carb Zetec conversion is possible! Okay, it MIGHT actually cost $4k.... (also, I think he was referring to buying a "complete package" of approved parts from the engine builders when he said it would cost 8K or more). I guess if I wanted to run FS I could build a (cheap) carb Zetec (I did have a year of machine shop in high school). Anyway, time out!
Thomas: My mom used to have a saying for times like this: "When the dirt's hittin' ya in the head, stop diggin'.
Have you bothered to price a pair of Webers or the manifold? 2/3'rds of the $3K is already gone.
Jeez, I admire your tenacity, but ya gotta give it up!
Craig: Thanks for the YB information, I thought the picture in the Burton Power catalog looked like it was on a 2L block.
I was only posting to Mark (and it was meant as a joke)...maybe I should have done it offline you I knew you were going to...Anyway..didn't I give up? Didn't I write let's stop kicking this dead horse? -the other thread on Zetec solutions looks interesting....Jon's post really made me rethink things.
Thomas I love ya brotha! Actualy My engine guy had recomended putting on the duel webbers and a cossie cyl head to run FS. So I can see the savings in running a whole Zetec engine with carbs VS buying a cossie cyl head whatever the cost?
PS that engine that YOU;) let run is a cool set up. Now get out there and clean up the rest of the cheatin on the left coast!.......But don't sell that car it is way cool. Race IT!
Just because we shouldn't let a good thread die...
Is this the manifold you'd need?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...%3ASS%3AUS%3A1
Your 84 Reynard uses a Mk 9 Hewland. The Zetecs bolt up to an LD-200 Hewland. The Mk 9 provides some suspension pick-up points for your car. The LD would change these, so you would need to redesign the suspension. But that's OK, because you'd probably have to redesign the engine bay, too, since the Zetec is a different size than the Pinto.
If your objective is to get racing for a reasonable amount of money, your best bet BY FAR is to go for the original equipment used on the Reynard. If, however, you want to prove your talent as an engineer by totally modifying a 20+ year old car, and you are willing to put in hundreds of hours to design and fabricate new components and do it in the hopes that the result will be a car that handles and performs reasonably well, then go for the Zetec.
Larry Oliver
International Racing Products