Zetech solutions

[csrazzle]

How about a thread detailing the parts needed for a Zetech conversion with the sources and prices. It would be nice to discuss alternatives for the parts as well. Thank you.

[jonbaytos]

Zetec conversion costs 98'or newer Van Diemen

Engine complete from Quicksilver 10,500.00
Electronics [Pectel T-2 ECU] 1400.00
Chassis loom 1100.00
Exhaust System 1100.00
Fuel system 575.00
Engine cover 450.00
Water pipes/oil lines/fuel lines etc 375.00
Alternator system 475.00
Starter motor/heat sheild 275.00
I would plan on a week's worth of work to complete and some small odds and ends depending on what you have to start with.You can get all of the above from Quicksilver if you have to.I'm sure that you could save some money on some of the above,but at the end of the day what are you getting.So be warned up front, that I'm positive that someone is making some money on the components above.JB

[RobLav]

Complete engine - EBay - maybe $500
New engine bearings / rebuild - $200 - $500 or so
Pectel ECU on EBay - $100
Altered chassis loom - ?? Why not start with one from the Focus engine?
Exhaust system - ?? - I'd probably buy the entire system ($1100)
Fabricate oil / water lines - $200 or so?
Alter engine cover - epoxy, fiberglass, and foam - $100
Fuel system - I'd probably buy outright ($575)
Starter? I'm sure a decent one can be found cheaper - maybe $200 max?
Alternator - there's a neat one around (I forget the website)
(http://www.racemate.com/images/PDF/Alternator.pdf)

This is about $3500 so far.

Can the Pinto pan and oil pump / bracket be made to work on the Zetec?

How about head to chassis mounts?

[csrazzle]

Thanks for the information. At least now I know what I am looking at, hope others find this useful as well. I have a donor Zetech so I hope some $$$ can be saved there. I have a couple of questions about the donor engine. Does the flywheel need to be modified, what needs to be done to it? Can a stock ECU be appropriately modified,if so by whom and at what cost? Can a service part alternator be used, which one is appropriate? Thanks again to all for the help and please let's try to get more questions and answers on this issue.

[greg pizzo]

the pinto pan does NOT fit at all ...... neither does the oil pump without serious part exchanging .. bracket from pinto is NOT usable better to sell all and buy a new one ... really ..
flywheel is not a very good doner .... MIGHT be made to work but not worth it
a stock ECU is not a good thing to start with and is not yet even been talked about to be FC leagal I suspect wont be

there are precious few service alternators that are even close to small enough to work ....and the savings is about 100.00 if you can get a hold of the right one .....we had a starter/alt house do a search we found one ..that is VERY close but it is just very close not the real deal ....might work but needs a pulley and all almost comes out a wash ...... maybe 100.00 for all your trouble and you still have to make a braket that will be robust and reliable ....... seems maybe a piece of cake ... but turns out to be a JOB ........
.
IF you LIKE doing GLASS work .. an engine cover COULD be done .....but the real quesion is do you wan to save a 200.00 and spend a long weekend doing it ??? that a question you have to ask your self ......and in the end it most likely will be heavier than a VD piece

you can find ECU's on eBay ........ and they can be reprogramed ..... a savings maybe there ..

these are just a few answers from our recent experience ............

[Charles Warner]

The first question is: are you planning on an SCCA legal car? Then you can look at the costs.

[Ron B.]

Some day I'll update this, but this should bring back some nightmares.......

Prices are somewhat inline with buudrow1.

BTW -= WTF is a buudrow?

http://home.mindspring.com/~rboltik/

[El Guapo]

Although I know Jon, this is just a guess at his screen name. In the deep South (particularly in Louisiana) people have for years been telling Boudreaux and Thibidoux jokes. These are kind of a Southern version of Polish jokes. Boudreaux and Thibidoux are buddies, but both of them are idiots. One is only marginally brighter than the other. I would love to share some of these jokes with you, but on reflection, absolutely none of the ones I know would be suitable on this site. So, Jon is that the source of your nick-name?

EG

[JHandley]

Hi fellas,
Just wondering, is it possible, or even practical, to make the zetec work in an older reynard sf 84? would it really be much of a benefit to do so, performance wise? any thoughts or suggestions welcome.
Jeff Handley

[Joefisherff]

The spec Zetec Flywheel comes from Quartermaster and if my memory serves me is about $350. You will also need a clutch and you can either use the 7.25 single or dual disk clutch which adds another $500 or so. I remember seeing a post that someone in Florida put a Zetech in a 97 Van Diemen (Area 51 Motorsports), it would be great if they could chime in and provide their lessons learned. Does anyone know if Ray Grienke (wiring Maestro) has built a wiring loom for this application?

[Mark H]

It looks like these guys can make up a manifold and sell you all the parts to make up a carbed Zetech. www.piercemanifolds.com The DCOE 152 or 151 seems to be the way to go?

Or maybe use a single DFV that is already on your Pinto?
Just an idea?

[csrazzle]

Lot's of good info, thanks Joe for the flywheel point. Greg, What pan and pump do we need to be looking at? Rob, how do I id the proper ECU on Ebay, just pectel or pectel t2? Ron thanks for the series comparisons and background very helpful. Charles, I guess since I run SCCA my main interest is SCCA legal, I have to admit I would be interested in the Cooper series but it is down the road. I realize others might be interested in other applications and we may may realize some cost effective solutions if we keep the discussion open. If it is not a problem then perhaps a note on application could be included in the post. Otherwise I am sure everyone will be checking the rules for their own application and that will work as well. Lots of grist for the old mill. Thanks again.

[racer27]

CSRazzle: Are you running a Citation FC? Is this he car you plan on converting?

[D.T. Benner]

Yea,good luck! I have purchased 4 Pectel T-2 ECU's on E-Bay. Here is what I have learned from that. All T-2's look the same on the OUTSIDE-BUT whats inside can be a lot different. When ordered new from Pectel many are configured internaly for specific applications. That is -different Firm ware and/or hardware. While they can be sent back to pectel for modification that is NOT cheap! Don't ask me how I know! As for $100,the cheapest one I have seen sell on Ebay was $350 and guys from Europe and the UK are paying more than that when they see them on Ebay. Our $'s are in the pooper compared to the Euro. About the cost to convert to Zetec power. Things like the Oil Pan and Pump,Flywheel and clutch are not something you can whip up in your garage to save money. It comes down to "Pay me now or pay me later" Sure it cost money to convert to Zetec BUT how many Pinto rebuilds you will NOT be paying for in the future will make up for it As one "Mature" driver told me "This is the LAST engine I will probably EVER need!"

[Gerry Dedonis]

Carbureted conversion of a Zetec and Duratec engine by John Ehrlich at Al-Tech Precision in Denver, Colorado. John also makes a stand-alone ignition system that does not require a computer.

Other components made by this company include driveline and transaxle adapters and individual throttle-body injection for a variety of engines...Zetec, Duratec, GM-Olds Quad 4, etc. See his website: http://www.quad4rods.com or call John at: 303-287-9093.

Gerry Dedonis
Kansas Engines

[jonbaytos]

Before this travels down it's regular goofy path of debate of number crunching and perceived eqaulity,let me throw a few things out there.
The Zetec was an idea that I had back in 99' to help the costs in the Pro-Series.At that time some teams were spending 30,000.00 plus on engines in a season just on service and R&D.There were trick pumps,pans,carbs,exhaust,intakes,oil,air intakes and filters,ignitions systems/at least 15.Clutches,flywheels,water pumps[electric] cam covers,breathers and the list goes on.None of it in my opinion did a thing on the race track.In fact all you really had to do was make sure you had the Ex- Howard Katz engine.[circa 90 I believe] and you were in pretty good shape.I know of 4 championships that this engine won.Morioka,Besnard,Wheldon,Justus.There was always a diff with this engine.I think also important to note that if you attach either John Hayes or Dominic Cape to this engine,with a good driver you have dominance.There lies the problem.The pintos were all over the place.I can't count the times that we loaded in the supposed dyno stonker only to pull it again.Also for whatever reason in 2000 and 2001 in both Primus and Cape for which I was a part of both, we endured many catasrophic blowups and at least 8 more complete duds.The paddock was always a buzz with this guy or that guy has this.Something we never hear any more.So the agenda was this.
Stop wasting money in every area, and stop the perception of ongoing development/create parity/and have a more modern powerplant that is available,and can run for a long period of time without service nor modification.And oh by the way is more reliable!
I think it safe to say that all these have been acheived with great success,as well as some other benifits such as throttle response and not shaking so much it breaks the chassis.In addition we implimented some other changes that we believed and have been confirmed that would also save money and R&D costs.Wheels,wings,springs,dampers,bars,gears,diff s,brakes,data,diffuser's and bodywork all became fixed.
Rightly or wrongly Club racing was not a big consideration when this step was taken.I suppose in hindsight we thought that if we acheived what is listed above it would stand on it's own merit and people would welcome the change.We contrary to what some people have said and still others believe ever force the issue.
To be honest I have always maintained that Ford 2000's problems at the Club level are not the engine.[under oath in fact]In fact I fail to see what it will do to enhance the class.People are not searching for engine,they are searching for the package that represents value.Even if you and I believe it has value,it's clear that not many of the folks coming in see it the same way.As a salesman of racing cars and will not honestly tell someone that FC is the way to go.I have not even been presented the oppurtunity in some time. I beleive in the form it is presented the engine package just further complicates an already complicated class.
I saw something in one of my many depositions with Fran-Am and Mazda suits against the club that confirms my case.I personally think that Gary Rodrigues from Star Mazda is a very clever man,and he commented in his deposition that a lot of his sales came from people that looked at both Formula Continental and Mazda.They untimately chose Mazda as it was just simple to understand.I know i have pointed it out before but in the last 5 years there have been over 300 new single seat chassis sold. Cost to some degree has not been an issue.3 pintos and 52 Pro Zetecs inside of this number.I beleive that the numbers speak for them selves.
The fact is Ford 2000 was a great class,that is until it had some competition.Mazda,Fran-Am,F-SCCA,BMW,Skip Barber etc.[all spec]
Please stop the engine debate it is pointless,the numbers continue to shrink and the engine you have is fine for what you are doing.Put it this way what if there were 30 free Quicksilver Zetecs on offer.It would still not change the numbers in this class.They still have to have a 40,000.00 chassis as well as all the other percheived crap.Look at Mr.Defer's post about his engine cost,thats nothing in the whole scheme of things.If you had the Yoko spec tire we used in the pro series in 2000 you could do the whole season and the Runoffs on 4 sets of tires.And have the money left to get another pinto.But not many want to hear about that.
The Zetec alone has not saved the Pro-Series,although it has played a major role.It is the package of simplicity that has been developed.And before some of you go off about it being dumbed down I would caution that all we have done is gotten rid of waste.There on any given weekend some very smart folk's lost in the set-up.Just as with any race car!
For variuos reasons I don't think it can be saved.There is one thing I'm positive of is that the Zetec alone will not do it.One has to remember that the Club also does not offer the on-track value that it did 5 years ago as well which does not help.All this talk about carbs,looms,cores for 500.00,whole kits for 3500.00 is a bunch of bollocks.It's unlikely you can ever fix anything without identifying first the problem's.Then you have the small issue of agreeing.The time that has been wasted on this whole Zetec issue is crazy.Some, if not most of the comments have no basis in fact it is just pure BS. Jon Baytos

[RobLav]

Can a ZX3 (or a CVT or Duratec) head be made to fit on the Pinto block? At least the Duratec head has the intake and exhaust ports on the same side as the Pinto.

The Pinto head and that screwy valve geometry is the weak point of the engine now. The block is strong, the original crank is stout, and with the now allowed JE forged pistons and Oliver or Crower rods, the bottom end is pretty good. Keeping the bottom end allows us to keep the pan, oil pump, flywheel, clutch, etc - which are all still good. So why dump them?

The proposed new aluminum Pinto head is not really a step forward. The real problem is the valve train geometry in trying to get the designed valve lift (up to .405"). New valves come in too long of a length, requiring a cut at the valve stem (heat treat goes out the window). Combine this with cam base circles too small, and the valve system is stressed. Basically, the aluminum head is a copy of a problematic design.

(In my humble opinion here...)

There has to be a more modern head (Ford or Mazda) that can be made to work! Any ideas?

[RobLav]

Nice post Jon. It puts it all back in perspective.

[greg pizzo]

I really think Jon is correct !! as well as others ... it has been a long road to get OUR car switched ..... BUT if I wasnt conviced it was the RIGHT thing we wouldnt have done it .... the PACKAGE is GREAT ...modern and makes sense in alot of ways

spending a BUNCH of time to try to create a better mouse trap ........is I think pretty counter productive ... isnt to RACE most of our goal ...... and ON A LEVEL playing field ???

Les Philips has spent alot of effort to provide a solution to the pinto/zetc question .....IT is PRETTY DAMN close.. pintos have won ........there is alway the deal that the BEST teams (best preped cars) are the latest itteration ... ZETEC .... so most of the time the best team and preped cars will win.......... but in the pacific formula a pinto CAN win.......... the rest is driver and prep ........ it is an expensive upgrade .......but not as expensive as a new car ........

let just get on with it ... and spend more time racing not working on a "new formula" pick one of 2 and then spend the energy to make that one work as best it can ..... enjoy the racing

again just my $.02 ..... but Ive had a 'few' years to think this over ........Id rather drive than wrench.........

[csrazzle]

To Racer 27, I wish I had a citation and I cannot say enough for all of the help Steve and Richard have been but no I am sitting here with a ground up rebuild done on a Tatuus with 3 pinto engines and one crate Zetech. My connection with ICP has been a successful run with an older CF,Z10. I raced hydroplanes for years in the late 60's and through the 70's. We raced real antique engines. (4 cyl.outboard hydroplanes) I am not trying to save FC with this Zetech discussion. All I have are my few toys and a bent for tinkering and I think, a desire to work with a fairly modern race car and engine package. As a tinkerer and not in possession of a ton of extra cash I want to explore options for geting a Zetech powered car on the track and I do appreciate everyones great ideas and opinions. I think as we build these cars and more information is put up those of us with a desire to make the engine change can. Anyway guys, please don't get wadded up over more Zetech discussion, I know I appreciate the help. Value for the dollar is essential as is an economy that enables a good number of folks to have disposable income. Many have given me ideas to pursue. Thanks. Chuck

[Mark H]

With all the testing that yall and the Cape's did with engines did yall ever do any "testing " with the trannys?.... like limited slip diffs? Now that would pick up the performance without costing alot?
Maybe we are looking at the wrong thing?

[jonbaytos]

Mark H,sorry never had a limited slip diff in the car.Don't know how much you would gain.I think that the point that I was trying to make was FC is a great class it just needs to evolve into something that more user freindly to someone that is new.There are not that many tinkering folks left.I suppose in hindsight if I could do it over again I would take away the wasted R&D items Tires,Dampers,bars,diffs,wings,etc.and leave the engine alone.At least I would have not fragmented the class.At the time 2001, Ford was very interested in us installing the Zetec.After Sept 11 there attitude and budget changed in the most complete way.I'm pretty sure, although we have helped the Pro-series, we have by the change in engine helped kill the club version.Maybe we should take the Pro version back in that direction.After all history shows that a healthy Pro most of the time converts to a healthy club. Jon B

[Purple Frog]

For a second there I thought somebody had stolen Buudrow1's password.
Look at the volume of words from a guy that purely hates to type. He must really care about this subject to suffer through all that typing.
Did you hire a ghostwriter? or a secretary to do all that typing? No. I know better.

Jon, Seriously, Thanks for your perspective.

[DaveW]

I'm pretty sure, although we have helped the Pro-series, we have by the change in engine helped kill the club version.Maybe we should take the Pro version back in that direction.After all history shows that a healthy Pro most of the time converts to a healthy club. Jon B

Although spec'ing the Zetec in the pro series may have been somewhat of a factor, Jon, I think allowing the Zetec into club FC is a good thing for the long run, and now provides an outlet for the pro F2000's.

I think what really has hurt FC is the proliferation of spec formula cars, because, as you said, there are not many of us tinkerers left. And, there are too many outlets for disposable income that don't require the time and effort required to race anything successfully, let alone a complicated car that requires a sophisticated, and most often expensive, set-up to work properly. Most people just don't have the persistance and staying power required to race successfully.

[jonbaytos]

Hey Frog your right again on all counts.I think that I'm pissed because now I'm confused.All the variations of what used to be one class.Wheels,tires,maps,restrictors,heads,blocks,c arbs,does any of it address the real issue. JB

[JHandley]

chuck, looking to sell either of the 3 pinto motors?
just a thought,
Jeff
cainesgrandad@yahoo.com
(419) 944-7591

[jonbaytos]

Well put DW.And I agree,it is just that the focus for a long time seems to have been Zetec and what it will do for the formula.I just don't see it.As far as a place for the for the Pro-Series cars to be sold,that does not seem a problem at this time.They are appreciating inside the series as it stands.Maybe I should spec a different chassis so they could be sold into the club?JB

[Stan Clayton]

From my perspective on first the F/SRAC and now on the CRB, bringing the Zetec into FC was never about retrofitting older chassis with the engines in a well-intentioned but misguided attempt to "save" the class. For me, it was all about establishing a way forward in the face of an increasingly problematic engine supply. Sure, some folks would want to put a Zetec in an older chassis, and that's to be encouraged, but that wasn't my motivation for supporting the idea.

And I can see where the Zetec made sense for Jon Baytos, as well. It must be pretty hard to try to sell a brand new 50-thousand dollar race car and have to disclose that the engine is 30 years old and spent 99% of that time pushing someone's clapped-out Pinto around Arkansas...

All humor aside, this same conundrum faces FF and FV as well. All three classes were doing reasonably well for many years before increasing competition and class stagnation set in. OTOH, how can one expect to attract new competitors and car construction if a primary component of the car is based on a long-out-of-production, expensive, short-lived set of pieces that is increasingly difficult to source? One can't, is the simple answer, which is why we are seeing rapid growth in classes which address those issues successfully in the minds of the race car buying public.

In another thread, Steve Lathrop hit the nail on the head IMO with his comment that the success of our classes has always been based on an influx of new cars to top-drawer teams, which sold their slightly used cars to less well funded teams, who in turn sold their older cars to entry level guys. But the key is that there has to be a continuous trickle of new cars coming into the class for that system to work. Otherwise sooner or later we end up with everybody in the class driving 10-30 year old cars and no new growth. IMO, that spells the beginning of the end for a class.

This phenomenon is not restricted to open classes, either. We see the same thing in that ultimate spec class, Spec Racer Ford. More than 850 SRFs have been sold since 1984, with some 550 still active with SCCA, but that still leaves about 300 gone off the rolls. I don't know the specifics of where they went, but I do know that Enterprises continues to sell 1 or 2 new ones a month, which goes a long way towards explaining how SRF has managed to maintain its top class ranking over the years.

So what does that mean for FC? IMO FC will have to continue to be somewhat flexible if it is to remain a viable class. It seems axiomatic to me that the pro series will change engines in an upcoming year, perhaps to the Duratec, since that is Ford's current production 2 liter 4-banger. Within a very few years of that happening the Club should (IMO) move to incorporate these new cars into the class. We have a model in place for how to do that, and it seems clear to me that the process will be easier in subsequent iterations, so why resist it? New cars means that the pro teams will have a ready market for their used cars and that FC will continue to have a ready supply of affordable near-new cars. This has to be good for both the pro series as well as the long term health of the class in the Club.

At the same time we can aggressively move to assure an adequate supply of affordable and durable parts for the Pinto, so as to maintain the viability of older chassis and engines irrespective of what the future holds for the pro series. That's where the aluminum head comes in, as it addresses the biggest single parts supply issue currently facing the Pinto engine. After that will come a new (forged) piston, replacement valves and possibly cams, and other pieces as required. Our ultimate objective for the Pinto is to have an engine that rivals the newer engines in power, durability and affordability.

I believe that it is critical for us (collectively) to maintain a proactive approach to dealing with the challenges facing FC, which is why the CRB has supported the introduction of new parts and engines. If we do not continue to address these issues, we run the risk that FC participation being in free-fall becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy of doom for the class. After all, class participation is down 46% since 2000. How much further does it have to drop before folks give up on it if they see no efforts to revive it?

Stan

[jonbaytos]

Stan that is all very good,but what does axiomatic mean?Jon B

[Stan Clayton]

Jon, axiomatic means to be based on a self-evident truth. In other words, the pro series have updated from a previous engine to a current one. Therefore, one can expect it to happen again when the current engine no longer the current engine.

Perhaps the purest form of this process is what has happened in pro-Atlantics, where the series has changed chassis and/or engines every 3-5 years for decades. I expect the same thing to occur in pro FF2000. After all, you yourself wrote on these pages that in 2001 Ford was very interested in you swapping to the Zetec. The Duratec is now their default engine, so now that the Zetec has run its course (how many new cars are you selling?), I would not be surprised to read one day that "starting next year" the new engine will be the Duratec 2.0 liter in a new-spec chassis.

You are in the business of selling new cars, not just running a new series, so it seems axiomatic to me...

Stan

[jonbaytos]

Wow Stan thanks a lot, you don't know good that makes me feel.I thought you were calling me a bad name.As for the rest of your forecast about what I intend.You tell me what you know, and I'll tell you what I know.In other words,have you been posing as our janitor down here at group4? JB

[Stan Clayton]

Ha ha, Jon, I don't know anything about your business plans! I have just read what you have written and thought about what has happened in the past with your series, as well as other series, and drawn the obvious conclusions.

But it is not a sure thing. Move too soon and the competitors won't come with you because they have other viable pro series to run with. Wait too long and someone else will start it up without you being in control. Timing is critical...

Stan

[jonbaytos]

Good night and Good Luck

[RobLav]

Holy Cow was I wrong on the price of a Pectel T2 ECU! I saw a listing for $2700.00.

That's just plain nuts - and rules out my plans for a Zetec swap in the RF99.

$2700 will easily buy an 05 Suzuki GSX-R 1000 engine and a few other odds and ends. And I get more HP, it's way lighter, and a 6 speed sequential box (with easier gear changes between tracks). $2700 could also buy a Cossie YB head to go on the Pinto block!

[D.T. Benner]

Last time I talked to Sandy at Quicksilver you could buy 2 (TWO) T-2's for $2700. As for the Motorcycle engine conversion you could spend the rest of your days trying to figure out how to make all the different brands and sizes equal in performance. Makes the Zetec thing look like a walk in the park.

[Douglas Brenner]

I have sold my pinto and am getting busy converting to Zetec. Even if all things were totally equal, now when asked what engine I run in my car, it will be really great not to have to say "a Pinto!"

[emotepix]

Not wanting to re-tread the well-worn paths of debate here, I just wanted to add that I've had current prices for the SCCA required Quicksilver and Ford Motorsports Pectel T2 parts and they're pretty reasonable, totalling around $3300 for everything including Zetec friendly loom.

Add to this the cost of a decent used Zetec motor at around $1k and no, it's not three grand, but it doesn't have carbs and, as far as i can see from the FCS, it's SCCA legal.

Of course, this is not the complete cost of a conversion, since you have to mount the motor, get an exhaust system, and somehow get the power to the wheels, but it is a start.

HTH
Cheers
Chris

[Thomas Copeland]

Chris, you're very brave!!!