[QUOTE]
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Originally Posted by Stan Clayton
Stan, I don't understand your question. What could I possibly explain any more than I already have?
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan Clayton
Stan, I don't understand your question. What could I possibly explain any more than I already have?
I'm talking about the Duratec engine Ford intends to propose to SCCA. What is your position on that proposal, and how do you address all the criticisms you have leveled at Honda wrt to the Duratec?Quote:
Originally Posted by stonebridge20
No, they are not. Honda have specifically stated that they wish to keep the Fit approved in its 'current production version', but SCCA will control each and every specific change. SCCA is NOT granting Honda control over their engine in the class. Moreover, SCCA will control the map and the restrictor size to ensure parity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Smith
As we learned to do with the Zetec in FC, the Club will make changes as needed to ensure good parity. Will it be perfect? No, but it isn't now in the class.Quote:
IF the alternate engines are actually started at someone's idea of a 115 HPc Kent's horsepower and torque curve, how long before the whining starts?
That might be true, but it doesn't apply to FF, where there are already TWO engines approved.Quote:
formula's with one engine mean the same rules apply to everyone equally
Ok,...That's an easy one. I have not seen a specific, in writing proposal from Ford on the Duratec or even if that's the engine that they would propose as you just stated on speculation. When I see something in writing, chances are you'll get my $.02Quote:
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Originally Posted by Stan Clayton
Nice evasion, Mike. Chicken...:pQuote:
Originally Posted by stonebridge20
It's not evasion Stan. It's fact. I have not seen any specific plan from Ford yet.Quote:
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Originally Posted by Stan Clayton
As far as being "chicken" You obviously don't know me very well.
I think he means "respectfully." Good thing he's a director and not a diplomat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Wolfe
Hey, I'm all for putting the Ford back in Formula Ford. But it's gonna take more than Henry's name to keep me happy and racing. If Honda's actions woke them up, great. But what matters is who delivers. Honda appears to be way ahead of Ford on this. If Ford catches up, great. But I'm not giving either company any special treatment just because of the name over the door.
How do you get 30% of six? My calculator says that's 1.8. Maybe one of the kids is really short? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by S Lathrop
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Originally Posted by RoadHazard
2/6*100 = 33.333333333333333333333333333333%. Please excuse my imprecission.
Looking back to probably 2000 when crankshafts were unavailable we did go to Ford. Specifically I went to Ford through a law partner of mine who had been a VP at Ford and was tightly associated with Roush. We got no where with Ford depsite having the ear of some people high up on the food chain but we did receive some decent advice from Roush. I eventually went to my old friend Joe Lunati who put together a contact to have the cranks produced.
John
1. When will new blocks be ready?
2. How much will they be?
3. What's the contingency plan?
The Ford letter lacks substance! It is about as committal as "maybe." The CRC should thank Ford for their interest, welcome their return to FF racing, and extend their hopes that they can compete with the newly-approved Fit engine!
Larry Oliver
I have an idea. How about we have a class called Formula Ford for Kent 1600 powered cars, and another class called ??? for a Honda/Ford war........Naaaaa too logical! Thanks for the new block to Ford, it's been in the works for a while. P.S. A long lasting spec tire would be nice in both classes!
There are regional organizations we can run with NOW that support FF and would likely remain supporters of the Kent motor. The only component missing is a national championship.
Here's a scenario....SCCA takes the Fit into FF. All of the Kent proponents align with another national sanctioning body and have a parallel series with their own national championship WITH SUPPORT from Ford. Kind of like IRL vs. CART. If that were to happen, it would be truly interesting to see the size of the fields.
Mike, I retired from Ford in 2007 after 29 years with the company. For 8 of those years I worked at Ford Racing. 1st as a chassis technical specialist in the racing engineering department & then as the NASCAR Manager. I quit Ford Racing in 2002 to move back to product engineering so that I could have a family life.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike g.
I am still, occasionally, in contact with people in the Ford Racing department. I got involved in discussions about the future of Formula Ford after the 40th Bday party. Ford Racing upper management was not aware of the Honda proposal until I called on the Tuesday after the Sprints & I have been in fairly regular contact since that time. I am not a paid consultant or an employee of Ford Racing. They do know of my long involvement with the club & have asked me to be informally involved by helping with understanding some of the SCCA processes & occasionally communicating some information to the membership. That said, I have a great loyalty to Ford and I would like them to be involved in the future of Formula Ford & will do what I can to assist in that effort.
I realize that many people feel that Ford has let them down as Formula Ford racers. I do agree that Ford has not promoted Formula Ford in the US for some time. This is a complex issue in that Ford of Europe has promoted Formula Ford significantly for decades. The support from Ford of Europe is because they work HAND in HAND with the sanctioning bodies in Europe & these sanctionig bodies co-operate with Ford in an effort to promote both the racing & Ford Motor Company. This kind of common interest working relationship has not existed with the SCCA for about 25 years & I can guarantee you that Ford made several approaches to the SCCA over the years but to little or no avail. However, one thing I am certain of is that Formula Ford would not have survived as a world wide racing class without the tremendous support of the Ford Motor Company & this is a fact of life.
Ford Racing US has tried to get more involved with "grassroots racing" in the US. As an example, in 1998 I was sent to England for 2 weeks to discuss with Ford Racing of England, their business relationship with the various sanctioning bodies that Ford Racing dealt with. I spent a great deal of time with members of Ford Racing discussing how to expand Ford USA's support of racing in the USA such that it would benefit both the racers and Ford Motor Company. . When I returned there was much internal discussion as to how to proceed & I know FOR CERTAIN that there was contact betewwn Ford Racing upper management & the management of the SCCA. I frankly do not know the details of the conversations as I was not directly involved, however I do know that I was told that we would not be "wasteing our time & money dealing with the SCCA". Now the fact is that the SCCA is to a great extent a much different organization than it was in 1998 & they have a MUCH greater interest in marketing now than they did then.
The real fact of the matter is that opportunities were missed by both organizations.
I have said enough & I will not be making additional posts on this subject.
Thanks for hearing me out ... Jay Novak
Thanks for your efforts Jay!
While I like the tradition and history of formula ford, it isn't the name on the engine plate that made this such a great class. It was a relativly inexpensive, highly durable engine in a full-on race car, encouraging large fields of drivers in equal cars. The cars have rarely been equal, it's true, but that encouraged builder participation. I don't care what the engine plate says as long as it meets the above criteria and helps us get back to the outcome of large fields of drivers in equal cars. I doubt turning down a solid proposal from Honda in favor of a vague promise from Ford makes much since, and I see no reason either should be turned down. We should simply decline to limit the class to Ford products, but encourage them to join in. If they want it to be a Ford series, they can simply provide a better product at a better price. They already have tradition on their side.
I want to clear up a few things that were said and correct a few statements that have been made in this thread. As I have mentioned previously I have also had some connection to Ford Racing but have been somewhat reluctant because I now work for another automaker (not one actively involved or proposing to enter formula racing). I worked at Ford from 1990 to 2006. One of my responsiblities from 2003 to 2005 was to provide marketing research support to Ford Racing this involved projects determining the value of racing programs and strategy for performance parts. Even though I now work for another manufacturer I still hold Ford Racing in high regard.
Regardless I have a few comments:
Does a letter from a Ford Director mean this program will happen?
While I never worked with Brian Wolfe directly I have heard him speak and hold him in high regard for his technical abilities. He basically was basically at the infantcy of fuel injected 5.0L Mustang performance modifications. He is a racer to the core and does understand grass roots motorsports. I am concerned, however, that his letter was lacking in details - especially a promised date for Kent block availablity. Mose Nowland certainly is talented but this has to be a commercially viable project. In addition Ford Racing has prior reputation for announcing performance parts and showing them in the catalog when, in fact, they were not available. I sincerely am hoping for the best but at this point it is still in process.
Myth #1 - The Kent engine has been out of production for a long time and no data or drawings exist.
Well yes and no - the 1600 cc version has been out of production for a long time. It was last produced in South Africa. The SA versions had a 83 casting number which indicates that the last major design revision to the 1600 block occured in 1983. As late as the mid 90's the 1600 was still part of Ford Power Products line up being sold for industrial engines. In addition the 1300 cc version was in production as first the HCS engine and later the Endura E engine until 2002. While this is a different block it retains similar architection and bore spacing as the kent.
Myth #2 - Ford has never made any money on Formula Ford.
While it is true that Ford has probably had few production vehicle sales triggered by their involvement in Formula Ford, I can assure you that their sales of crate engines in the 80's and 90's was profitable to them. In fact, Len Pounds (Ford Racing - who was involved from the inception in the US) stated that Ford helped bring FF to the US in 1969 because of two reason - 1) a competitive reation to FV and 2) to sell engines for the class.
Myth #3 - Ford has never promoted SCCA or featured SCCA in adds.
Well, not for quite a while since the 800 lb gorilla called NASCAR has taken a lot of resources. When Ford Racing started again in the early 80's Ford was very involved in grass roots with the Ford Cup program that Mickey Matus ran. Mickey was a big sports car supporter. Unfortunately SCCA does not deliver value for involvement like high spectator (NASCAR) or high participant (Drag Racing) motorsports provides. Ford did feature some SCCA A-Sedan cars in some B-roll footage in a Mustang commercial in the early 00's. Unfortunately formula cars do not have strong manufacturer association for most main stream consumers - so they make little sense in main stream commercials.
Myth #4 - Ford supports other grass roots racing like Ford Focus Midgets.
Ford Focus Midgets was not a Ford initiated program. This was a concept which was created by Keith Iaia in CA and shopped to several manufacturers (including Honda). While Ford did put some money in the program (as well as the CA Ford dealers), there was also a revenue stream from engine sales. Ford is largely out of this program and their contract with USAC ends this year. Keith Iaia still supports existing Focus Midget Owners with parts inventory and has also developed a new 280 hp 2.4L Ecotec engine for ASCS and other Midget sanctioning bodies.
Myth #5 - Ford is involved with FF in the UK thus they should be here.
This logic is faulty - you are comparing apples to oranges. FF in the UK at the top level is probably comparable to FF2000 or the Pro Formula Mazda series in the US. In addition, there is a much wider variety of motorsports in the US than the UK. I can assure you that from a volume and profit standpoint there is far more compelling business case to be made for drag racing than road racing. Ford in the UK is involved because it is the best of options available to them.
Myth #6 - Ford is being reactionary now to the Honda request.
From the inception Ford's involvement with FF has always been reactionary - in 1969 it was in reaction to Formula Vee.
I honestly hope everything in the letter comes to pass and Ford better supports FF and SCCA in the future - but there still is a long way to go on this - and I saw many letters and pronouncements of this type in my Ford career and without hardware and firm commitment dates it is just toner - and toner is cheap.
The block is underway. And the real serious people, other than apex FF ones - That want to get out there and race FF, atlantics,lotuses,cortinas etc. are pumped. But other than a few of us the rest of you have already made up your mind on an unproven engine. But it doesn't matter. The rest of the world will move forward without you. ----- Thanks -- The other --Jay
PS remember the oldsmobile both in S2000 and IRL. They were going to solve everything.
Press release. Has fewer typos than letter.
http://media.ford.com/images/10031/Duratec110PS_.jpg
http://media.ford.com/article_displa...ticle_id=31216
Good for Ford...welcome to the party!
I am a bit puzzled by that whole 'we've been working on it for the past 12 months' part, though. When were they planning to spring it on the Club? :rolleyes:
F'n A bubba . Well said .
But in this case, if the FIT turns out to be a bust, we'll still have the Kent.Quote:
PS remember the oldsmobile both in S2000 and IRL. They were going to solve everything.
Good deal for all.
Good find Tim. It is not by accident that this announcement coincided w/ the start of the Formula Ford Festival at Brands. At today's conversion rates however, the new Duratec at 5000 GBP is approx $8100 USD!Quote:
Originally Posted by TimW
Gib & Bushman are over there, so maybe we can have some first-hand information in the next week or two.
Yeah, I'd take 3 Hondas for that price.
On the question of price, does that $8150 include all those items listed? If so it is a reasonably good price compared to the roughly $7000 for the same parts for the Fit, plus assembly.
that would only get you 3 honda cores. Not race ready engines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickshoe
As Stan pointed out, the prices are comparable but we're still short on details...is the 5k pounds sterling assembled, dressed, dynoned & ready to install? If so, then that likely will be cheaper than the Fit for the base race ready engine. Adaptation costs obviously will vary car to car if indeed this engine can fit in existing cars. But, where is this engine in its production lifespan and how many production units will actually be constructed. Ford doesn't sell many small cars in the US anymore as Toyota, Honda & Kia have become the primary vendor of choice for the low margin cars. Ford will certainly have a product in that segment, but will it be a big enough player to have parts prevalent well after the federal mandate duration? If Ford is the vendor of choice in Europe so the worldwide volume is big enough, can those parts make it stateside down the road? The Fit has been very successful both here and worldwide total unit number wise from the trade publications I researched.
Tim
Does anyone know if Ford or anyone else has tried to put one of these new 110hp Duratecs into any U.S. chassis? I thought the reason this engine never came here was because of the physical limitations of making it work properly in an American Formula Ford.
$8100 is great, but can it fit in our cars?
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Originally Posted by TimW
I would invite Ford Motorsport to install this engine into a DB-1 and present the car and the proposal to SCCA and it's membership for inspection and approval.
SteveO
Tim you have a valid point about how many of these cars is Ford going to sell long term in US. That dramaticially effects the number of engines avail in junkyards. 2 weeks ago I was able to find a complete '09 FIT engine, less then 300 miles, for $1450 delivered. Would of purchased it if 1) this decision was made already, 2) i knew exactly which components were needed 3)not knowing if New $2500 Honda core was a better value.
I welcome the Ford intrest in a new motor. I hope it is not geared more towards new cars vs updates. I'll wait for details to come forth, and the chassis builders/fabricators to chime in. My intrest will peak when we have a solid proposal, timeline and when it is fitted into a representitive older chassis (As Honda did). Behind the Swift DB-1, what is most common/typical car out there? Mid 90's VD?
From the press release:Quote:
Originally Posted by SOseth
“The new power unit will be ideal for fitment in new chassis,..."
What is most important it seems is what is not written in that sentence...
Ford is getting ready to put a big push on the Fiesta in the US as well as other countrys other than the UK. I would expect some very large production numbers as the Fiesta is very well liked in the UK.
Can I start to come out of my hole yet?
Only if you have your helmet and flak vest on! :ha:Quote:
Originally Posted by stonebridge20
Come on out, Mike. My invitation still stands... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Stan Clayton
But Mike, you have to instead of just pose rhetorical questions, take a stab at answering them. But first change all the terms 'Honda L15A7' to 'Ford Duratec 1.6'. You have 30 minutes until you have to put your pencil down. This will go down on your permanent record. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan Clayton
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Originally Posted by stonebridge20
I'm comfortable in a helmet. It's the dunce cap that's been giving me headaches!Quote:
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Originally Posted by rmccown
Tim and Stan. I will write a long winded post on here very soon. I just can't do it now as I really need to generate some income today. Friday's are crazy here at the shop and I just don't have the time right now. I promise I will over the weekend.Quote:
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Originally Posted by TimW
Fair enough, Mike. I am myself dashing between the CNC router, a wing I'm modifying and getting ready to do another big layup this afternoon...oh, and checking in on this thread!Quote:
Originally Posted by stonebridge20
And prepping the Ralt for next week... :D
I'm looking forward to hear more about this. I really like the idea to keep a FORD motor.
I'm looking forward to seeing all the reasons Kent supporters come up with to explain why a proposed new engine from Ford has none of the issues or problems as one from Honda. :D
^Yes, I have my popcorn ready too.
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Originally Posted by Doug Carter
I believe this is the same engine that has been in use for two seasons in Australa. As to if it will fit look here. http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...=35108&page=17 post 657
That would get you 3 honda engine assemblies. Do we know what that approximately $8100 gets you from Ford? Is that the engine assembly like the Honda? Or is that the complete engine with all ancillaries?Quote:
Originally Posted by TimW
When its' time to replace the Fit I'm going to spend $2500 on the engine. What is the Duratec 1.6 going to cost? If the $8100 includes all the ancillary pieces, what is the price less all those bits vs. the $2500 Fit?
In the end I have a whole lot more faith in the reliability of the Honda, as well as the volume of parts available here in the US now and for the forseeable future.
I have always owned Ford trucks and motorhomes, own more Ford stock than I'd like to admit even though it is up close to 700% since Feb. I also have owned 8 Hondas in my lifetime, currently have two. So this isn't from a Pro Honda/Anti Ford camp.
I believe Honda has done a great job with their proposal, would be a great asset to the class and the club. Ford hasn't done sh!t for the class or club until they finally feel threatened. Let the Duratec in if it makes sense, but let the Honda in too!
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Originally Posted by Matt King
The main reason Ford will not need to up the performance ante with the Duratec is that both the Kent & the Duratec are Ford engines. Thus Ford will not have to beat the "other" Ford engine as the Honda Fit engine MUST if it is to succeed. Simply put; if Ford has both engines in the class there is simply no need to raise the performance level.
Additionally the technical support from England on the use & specs of the Duratec engine in Formula Ford will be invaluable asset & will start us out at a much better level the the current totally undefined Honda specs. The Duratec specifications actually exist as rules in England/Europe NOW.
Ford in England has been working on developing these 2 engine packages for Formula Ford on the other side of the pond for well over a year & the Kent owners over there have the same concerns as the Kent owners over here. The complete engine packages are already well defined & the 110PS engine will require very little adjustments to match the current US spec Kent engines.
On another note, when the Duratec engines are produced in the US starting next year & the Fiesta is selling like hotcakes the cost of the engines will go way down from the current 5000 British pounds ($8175 at current exchange rates) for the complete race engine. The $ is very weak right now & the exchange rate drives up the cost when imported from England. When production starts in the US the cost of the Duratec will go down significantly & the bare crate motors will be very cost effective.
Remember that Ford supplied the Kent engine to all comers at VERY REASONABLE PRICES for nearly 3 DECADES around the world. There is no reason this will be any different. How many years has Honda supplied engines to anyone in any race class in the US?
The flaw in that argument is that Ford doesn't want it's state of the art Fiesta engine to get beaten by a 40 year old design any more than Honda does. Ford is not introducing the Duratec in Europe just to achieve parity with the Kent. It wants to sell engines, which means transistioning current cars to the new powerplant. Introducing an alternative to the Kent, whether it's a Honda or a Ford, still opens up all the same questions about achieving parity, which have nothing to do with what brand the engine is.
I suggest that racers would move to the newer Ford engine because it will be significantly less expensive to race. That is the benefit of the newer modern engine. Ford will not need to make the performance better than the Kent, all they need to do is reduce the costs to race.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt King
Now you can say the same thing about the Honda except for one thing & that is that HONDA MUST WIN TO SUCCEED, THEY MUST BEAT THE KENT. With 2 Ford engines Ford wins all the time & so do the competitors in Formula Ford.
I still ask the same question: Ford has supplied nearly 10,000 Formula Ford engines for nearly 3 decades at very modest costs, how many engines has Honda supplied to anyone in SCCA racing at any cost?
Thanks ... Jay Novak
Less expensive to race than what, Jay...the Kent? Either the Fit or the Duratec will go many times the interval of the Kent between overhauls, and either will be far cheaper to buy and race than the Kent. I applaud Ford for bringing in the Duratec, but let's not pretend that the Duratec has some measurable superiority over the Fit. Moreover, the Honda Fit is smaller than the Kent and will fit in all existing chassis, while the Duratec...by Ford's own admission...will not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jnovak
Oh, baloney! It is naive in the extreme to believe that FF owners will buy into ANY engine program that admits one engine at a performance disadvantage compared to another. Just look at Formula Continental. The ONLY engine program that will work for Ford, Honda, Kia, VW or Hyundai is for any engine to have a chance to win. And that means an accepted hp and tq curve to match, whether it is Ford or any other source.Quote:
Now you can say the same thing about the Honda except for one thing & that is that HONDA MUST WIN TO SUCCEED, THEY MUST BEAT THE KENT. With 2 Ford engines Ford wins all the time & so do the competitors in Formula Ford.
Jay, by Ford's own admission it is only 5000 to 7000 engines, and that's spread over more than 40 years, so please don't "round up" to 10,000 engines. That said, where have you been...hiding in F500? Honda supply hundreds of engines in GT Lites, Touring, Showroom Stock and Improved Touring...FAR more than Ford. And with a comprehensive contingency program that puts Ford to shame. Believe me, brother, you don't want to go there... :ha:Quote:
I still ask the same question: Ford has supplied nearly 10,000 Formula Ford engines for nearly 3 decades at very modest costs, how many engines has Honda supplied to anyone in SCCA racing at any cost? Thanks ... Jay Novak
Correct me if I am wrong, but as I recall when we (advisory committee) looked into the Duratec several years ago it was run in a seperate class from the Kent. Assuming this is in fact correct there has been no effort to sync the performance of the two engines. (Isn't the Duratec about 10HP more than the Kent/FIT?) I also seem to recall that there were several internal modifications being made to the Duratec including the installation of a different cam; it was not an out of the box program.
If there is support for bringing the Duratec on line then there should be absolutely no opposition to the FIT. This is not so much of an issue as to what new engine (Honda or Duratec) but whether we bring in anything other than the exisiting Kent and Cortina. As for Ford not caring which engine would prevail.....bs. If you argue that then it should not matter to Honda; Ford would have as much interest in selling new engines as would Honda.
As far as I am concerned this Honda/Duratec discussion is simply putting on line Stan's class structuring proposal that was aimed to insure the continued growth of the class as engines come and go.
Personally I hope the BOD either votes this up or down; any delay will only hurt the class as did the mucking around with the Zetec performance in FC. If we vote down the Honda proposal then we should not consider any other engine proposals. Indecison is the biggest problem in SCCA.
John
No, according to the press release the US version of the Duratec 1600 FF engine will have 108.5 hp and 110 tq. That's a bit less than a Kent or Fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by John LaRue
1 Horsepower = 1.0139 Pferdestarke (PS) thus 110 PS = 108.5 HP
Yes, I saw those numbers in the press release; I was referring to the configuration in which the engine has actually been run in the UK and/or AU; or is this something completely different?