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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Minor
I find it odd that the manufacturer suggested to call the club to get an update on the manufactures product? Not doubting you Tim, it just calls into question what the relationship is between SCCA and Flagtronics?
I think we should scrap it all together. If you can't pay attention to flags, I don't think you should be in a racecar. It's not hard and it's literally the first thing you learn in driver's school. If you can't be bothered to glance at every flag station every time by I doubt you are watching your mirrors either.
I have mine installed, like it and find it worthwhile.
My experience I've found Flagtronics to be surprisingly helpful. When I installed mine, I didn't pay any attention to the unique number each unit has, kinda like your transponder. Apparently the number is on the back or the bottom. Mine is just mounted with velcro but didn't want to take it off so I called Flagtronics, they looked up my email and were able to give me my number based on that.
At NOLA they had a rep. there, when mine didn't respond as it should in the first session he came to my paddock spot and updated it for me - took 30 seconds at most.
For install I did cut the protective jacket over the wires so I could get a hard 90, that was really the hardest part, not sure what that jacket is made of. Not a lot of room between the steering wheel and the unit but just enough that my fingers don't touch while driving.
I prefer to get it done so I don't have to mess with it later.
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=110721&stc=1
No way I could do that. I don't have that kind of space. My data display is there. I don't have a formula wheel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Johnson 42
Really the practical solution is integration with AIM - which will require me to upgrade.
So I'll be spending money on these changes rather than racing.
Between the rain light and this I'm estimating more than $3000 in cost which doesn't improve me or the car.
Did you try to integrate it into the Aim wheel or is that an older system?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Johnson 42
Good and bad. Good that FT offered such great service. Bad that: A) The system didn't respond as it should; B) I seriously doubt there will be a FT rep at every race to correct an issue. How will the stewards react if there is a flag violation caused by a faulty FT? I agree with Reid that everyone should be paying attention to the real flags but I could see a race official relying too heavily on FT. I just don't think this system is ready for prime time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Johnson 42
Michael:
We have been here before on several issues, and the “safety in numbers” concept has proven to be very effective.
I recommend you post your petition here, that can easily be cut and pasted for maximum effectiveness. All that needs to be done is to amend the signature block, and inundate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Sport Engineering
An FT200 weighs 0.12lbs. Harness & GPS add 0.58lbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Sport Engineering
Early adoption happened years ago in another org. Many changes and improvements were identified and did happen over the course of years and thousands of units in the field.Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Sport Engineering
The mechanical designers involved started in open wheel. We'll get some images up on our site with respect to installs. Many have done a great job with their installations and we've taken a few photos of them over time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B
The display unit will have a pigtail out that can be left, right, or rear exit. The control unit is similar in form factor to an existing FT200 but thinner. You'll need to get power, ground, and CAN wires (if connecting to displays, telemetry, loggers, etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by jcolley
Long term we do hope to do some GPS sharing with some ECU & Logger manufacturers. It takes time and extreme care as positional accuracy is critical for this purpose.
It feels like cheating to have so much room compared to some cockpits, but I did have to remove the dash and reconfigure it to make space to add a mount bracket. But after 8 hours, it is visible to me with the bodywork on.
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=110722&stc=1https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=110723&stc=1
Since there have been at least a couple of Super Tour events, I am wondering what the results people have seen from the flagtronics unit??
Operationally, when the lead car has had Flagtronics, we've been able to get the Safety Car out more reliably and sooner when there's been a full course yellow. Until the full field is equipped it's interesting to see those using it, but not much else we can do with it in Race Control.
I found it amusing to see a rules update email for Mid-O, noting that the Flagtronics is optional for all groups EXCEPT SMX - mandatory for them, including potential VSC usage, to try to keep them under better control...
...if the shoe fits...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 924RACR
There may be a more innocent explanation. The Flagtronics-in-SMX initiative comes from within the SMX community.
See: https://specmx-5.com/2024/04/26/spec...nship-runoffs/
see title
About what?? About USE of FT? About installation? About COST? About 'rammed down throat?Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
Also not sure what 'title' you are referring to...title of the entire thread?
I have it installed in my FV and have seen it in operation at a couple of HSTs. I have a couple of opinions, but it works only 'a bit' at most events since MOST cars do NOT have it installed. The main utility as I see it is for Race Control.. not for the drivers.
Steve
Are there instructions anywhere for configuring it to work with AIM EVO4s and GS Dash? No way to see the FT display in my car, so integrating it with the data system will be preferable to buying the smaller display (when/if available before the Runoffs) at 2x the price. Thanks!
There are 'some' instructions on the website. I'd suggest that you contact 'romoman' (poster here). HE has come up with most of the answers and offered help to others in various posts regarding this option.Quote:
Originally Posted by cory mcleod
I should add.. it's not a 'trivial task'. It CAN BE DONE, but takes a LOT of knowledge and understanding about the protocols involved to actually come up with a FIX .. and most will be quite UNIQUE compared to the others.
Steve, FV80
Wait! What?! Integration with EVO 4S and an Aim Dash? That's a big deal, if it is possible. Especially if the Aim Formula 3 wheel could be done. Lots of racers have that wheel.
I have used it in WRL for a year now. I love it. Switch to electronic flag boards at the corners and it will perfect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
So easy to see. Allowing for code 35 instead of FCY is much better and allows the field to gather up faster.
It should have been implemented years ago.
Steve, I hear you and agree about being rammed down throat. I am not in favor at all.
It sounds like not much help from a drivers point of view, as I suspected.
It does sound like a ton of hassle from an install and make it work apparently without much support from the manufacturer.
As I posted months ago: get it developed and reliable, easy to use then implement it if most drivers agree.
This is NOT a simple inexpensive device and it has not proven to be very useful to the driver from what I can tell.
Peter,
How did Flagtronics facilitate fast pick up of the leader by the pace car?
Is it because the Flagtronics has the GPS making the leader very easy to locate?
Yes, the GPS enables all Flagtronics equipped cars to be seen on screen crawl.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
To elaborate on this... the MAIN control for Flagtronics is in Race Control and there are generally at least 2 screens (provided by SCCA HQ (so far)) that are viewable by anyone in Race Control. The FT "OPERATOR" - a person experienced (hopefully) with the system CAN "FLAG" any single car on the track and that puts a BOX around that car in the display. This is GENERALLY the overall leader, but it is subject to the information and action to/by the FT Operator. In some classes the leader changes OFTEN and it's hard to keep up with all the other things going on. FT does NOT automatically 'find' the LEADER.. that's up to the FT/OP person. IF he/she is correct, (and it IS "mostly" correct), then anyone in RC can immediately find the leader - at least someone CLOSE to the leader. RC can also see WHERE the pace car(s) might be at any given moment (in addition to ambulances, wreckers and other EVs - all ID'd appropriately on the screen).Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Olivola
There are also 'other conditions' that are controlled by the FT/OP that.. if not done correctly, COULD cause a bit of confusion... THAT is much more of an issue than I ever expected before seeing it in action at NOLA.
It IS a pretty neat system, but does have it's limitations. It does NOT function in the msec range continuously.. there are sometimes delays depending on LOTS of factors.
Currently, it's also sometimes QUITE CONFUSING when *ALL* cars are NOT equipped with FT200s.. especially so, when the lead car(s) are NOT so equipped. THAT issue should resolve itself in the not too distant future.
Fortunately, from a driver viewpoint, MOST of the potential problem areas are ultimately controlled by the FLAG STATIONS .. but again, THAT is also a MANUAL ACTION taken by someone at the corner. Someone handles the actual FLAGS.. presumably someone ELSE (COULD be the same person - not REQUIRED to be someone else - just whoever has the CORNER CONTROLLER BOX) must take action to control the FT indications.
I wish I could be in RC at Mid Ohio next weekend to see how the SMX sessions go with 'total' FT.
Steve, FV80
Check in with the Race Director early in the weekend and request permission to do just that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Davis
Thank you Steve!Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Davis
@CheckeredFlag - I have seen a list somewhere (maybe earlier in this thread) of the AIM systems that can be integrated - I believe mainly the current generation.
Yes, current RS3 configured systems can be integrated with the FT200. It depends a little on the ECU connection and logger, but it's mostly able to be done. It's really not too hard. I'm happy to help people out if they shoot me an email to matt@trailbrake.com
If I read Steve Davis's post correctly, the corner station could be showing one flag and the falgtronics could be showing a different condition because of the independent human operators on both ends. Right??
Caveat: I have not worked a Flagtronics event yet.
There is all kinds of latency built into the existing race control/flagging architecture. Adding Flagtronics will add more (or different) latency.
There is nothing yet in the GCR to indicate order of precedence.
Speaking for myself, I would obey the local flag. Especially one that indicates track condition immediately ahead.
Not really... the RCFT unit can 'send' a command to all cars.. all stations or a specific car ID. The corner stations only control LOCAL (to them) flag conditions.. that OVERRIDE anything RCFT might be commanding... so a BFA issued by sitting chair in RC, would need to 'acted on' by RCFT control, but will still be overridden by any "issued" LOCAL flag commands for any station. At least that's the way it's SUPPOSED to work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
My mention of the 'responsibility' of the RC operator is more like when all cars leave the grid.. some times it's All yellows, sometimes it's all WHITES.. sometimes it's NOTHING. So the RC operator has to be ACTIVE and ON THE BALL. Say.. it's YELLOW till turn 12 at VIR.. RCFT has to (NEEDS to) set the proper yellow as the cars leave the grid.. and then CLEAR the RCFT command for each station as the last car passes each station. The proper corners will (should be) issuing their matching flag condition... but could change to WAVING or DEBRIS if something happens. RCFT has to CLEAR each flag station as the last car goes by so that when the T12 station yellow is dropped when the FIRST car passes 12.. but all prior stations remain yellow until the LAST car goes by.. each in turn. If RCFT is not active, when the last car has passed all stations (and they have each 'cleared' their local flag condition in turn), RCFT could still be commanding yellow. .. i.e. when the station goes NoFlag (NF), if RC has NOT also gone NF, then the FT200 would revert back to yellow.
I think that makes sense .... say RC calls for the Pace Car to STAY OUT on a start.. RCFT would immediately go FCY again as would all stations. Or something like that :D. RCFT can command ALL stations at once, or any one or more at a time.. again possibly overridden by any NON 'no flag' condition at any specific station.
I might not be describing this perfectly.. I have only seen it in operation once at one track.. the NOLA HST in February.
Steve
From this weekend's MO Super Tour... Flagtronics implementation etc was definitely imperfect... and yet I was still happy to have it. I got very advance warning of one waving yellow during quali (damp track, not great visibility) on the middle of the back straight for a car spun on track by China Beach. Nice to have a few extra seconds to see what's up when you're over 130mph! (Group 5 - P1, P2, and FE2)
But there were other incorrect general notifications... local yellow on the front straight for what may have been a flat tow in the pits... disconnect/lag between green and checker laps... sounds from the above that these may be likely a lack of practice/alacrity in the human operator in race control...
The SMX class embraced Flagtronics and agreed to require it in all cars at Mid-Ohio last weekend. There were two opportunities to use the Virtual Safety Car (VSC) mode and it worked quite well. In one instance a car was able to be towed and the course cleared in 4 minutes. Had that not been available the session would have been black flagged which, at a minimum, would have cost 10 minutes. There will certainly be some hiccups with the system as our volunteers and racers become familiar with it. I am also sure that there are yet to be discovered inconsistencies in our rules/applications that we will stumble over, but in time I am a believer that this will help to improve the safety and administration of our races.
I wonder if you can "turn in" a gen 1 Flagtronics (my term), for credit towards the next iteration when it comes out.
If yes, I might get one now. I can see a personal benefit to having one in the car.
However, I had someone (who is familiar with Flagtronics and Aim integration), suggest I wait until the bugs are worked out before buying one.
I watched race 1 from the keyhole. There were several cars stuck in T1 gravel. All cars came thru the next lap at 35 mph all the way to the back straight where they appeared to accelerate to maybe 50 or 60. I could be wrong but I think they changed the condition from code 35 to double yellow and were picked up by a pace car while cars were towed out. It was interestingQuote:
Originally Posted by John LaRue
VSC was only used in practice and qualifying in the SMX run group per the briefing that I received last night. I will inquire about the race. Thanks.
I like it. I didn't have high expectations but figured I would put in the work to get it on the car. The first session I saw it change to yellow from below the cowl. It was in my periphery but it caught my attention. This happened several times throughout the weekend, sometimes I would scan further down track to see flagger, sometimes I would look down into cockpit at flagtronics. The debris flag was sometimes confusing, as in it took a couple seconds to realize what flag it was, but I am sure I will get used to it. I don't know why I need it counting my time on pit lane.
I am happy SMX volunteered to experiment with code 35, I think it will be a huge benefit down the line. It should cut down huge chunks of time wasted waiting for cars to catch up to pace car at some tracks. I heard it has allowed Watkins glen to do a "hot pull" for the first time in 15 years.
Anyway, my mind has been changed, I now think this is a valuable tool for a driver and race control. This doesn't change my opinion of how scca decided to force it upon us too soon, while ignoring member feedback. Hopefully tracks pick it up and spend money for systems and big led flag boards around the track.
I was one of those flaggers on Friday. Having done IndyCar events, I was familiar with the process and so were some of the others.Quote:
Originally Posted by John LaRue
- Without the light panel like IndyCar, it's easy to forget what your handheld (HH) is set to. So, you gotta take your eyes off the track to look at the HH.
- Since the HH is battery powered, the screen dimming to save power was unfortunate. If the battery can't make it the whole day, either put bigger batteries in the unit or provide recharging power packs to the corners.
- I wish the LED's for the buttons were bigger, too.
- The IndyCar HH has a shoulder strap, keeping both hands free for work like holding a flag or making notes.
- I do worry about the flags and the flagtronics disagreeing at stations; practice makes perfect.
- RC calling over the net to remind a station of their state or asking about their state, while they're trying to be helpful, is truly helpful. But, I could see where some flaggers could see it come off as bossy (I'm not one of them).
- Several of us are still hoping that when the VSC ends, all stations could wave the green signifying the change of state instead of just going dark.
- I thought the VSC was a fantastic use of the tech.
I want to put it in our FE2, but not before the integration with the Formula wheel. Integration into the car dashes will not only save space, but darn near all of them are much bigger screens. Integration into the Aim Formula Steering Wheel(s) will be a game changer for the formula classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by RussMcB
According to this BOD emo the on track flags take precedence
SCCA Fastrack News April 2024 Page 4
Motion to approve CRB Race Memo RM 24-05 GCR Section 6.1 Flags Addition related to in-
car flagging.
Motion - Steve Strickland
Second - Dayle Frame
RACING MEMO
ISSUED: May 9, 2024 NUMBER: RM 24-05
FROM: Board of Directors
TO: All Participants
SUBJECT: GCR Section 6.1 Flags Addition Related to In-Car Flagging
In GCR section 6.1 Flags, add as follows:
6.1 FLAGS
Flags convey the commands or information indicated below. They must be obeyed
immediately and without question. The content of this section cannot be amended by any
event Supplemental Regulations unless expressly approved by the Chairman of the Club
Racing Board, the Chairman of the Executive Stewards and the Head of Road Racing for
the purpose of incorporating in-car flagging system procedures
I guess that means for the time being that we need to follow thee flags held by the F&C folks
As it should be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
I worked the Flagtronics system at Road Atlanta and VIR and will be heading it up at the Glen next week. I was hoping it would get said in driver's meetings (and I think it did) but if I could impart one piece of info for the folks with the unit:Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
"Until there is full adoption and everyone has it, there is no question that flags must take precedence. The signal that everyone can see must be the primary source of flag condition. So - if you have a Flagtronics unit, use it as a digital tap on the shoulder, as in 'hey, I know you're pretty busy right now, but make sure you double check the next corner station.' If at that point you see the flag you got extra warning, and if there isn't a flag you know there has likely been some human error in the digital process."
When we give the flag meeting, we tell the flaggers that it's cloth first, digital second. Sometimes this means the digital yellow is late/doesn't come, and sometimes it means the digital yellow might stay up longer than was necessary. As flaggers get used to it and we refine processes, this will smooth out I'm sure.
I'm glad to see the positive comments about folks experience with it, because while I liked the idea I had some skepticism even when I took the controls at Road Atlanta. Once I'd worked with it, I became a much bigger believer. It's not without its situations that need to be refined, but the foundations of how it works within the flagging procedures is phenomenal.
I'm not sure what the control room to impound proximity is at the Glen, but I'll make every effort I can to be able to answer questions.
If you run into Greg Amy (Driver Ambassador for the SM/SMX crowd) he has some good working knowledge at this point, and when he sat down with me at Road Atlanta his words were, "I want to learn about it so I can hate it from a position of knowledge instead of ignorance." Within two events he was instrumental in the entire SMX field having it at Mid Ohio.
Thanks for these notes, the ones I've selected to copy in particular.Quote:
Originally Posted by CheckeredFlag
Battery power: We can see all of the battery charge in the control station - and it seems to me there is plenty of charge left at the end of the day. I'll mention this and ask if there is or can be a way to keep the brightness up for those sunny-day situations.
Shoulder strap: This is a great one. We know that having to wave a flag and then "turn around and find" the corner station unit can cause a delay on each end of the flag condition. Some stations have made a "holder" for them so it can be mounted on a post, but I like the shoulder strap idea. I'll pass that along.
VSC ending: I personally spoke with Eric Prill about this for nearly an hour yesterday, and then when I spoke with our new Director of Road Racing (Jeff Barrow) later in the afternoon I found that he had been giving it thought as well. Expect to see us continue to refine that process. I'm not sure if it will be green flags at every station, but there will be procedure evolution.
I'd have sworn that I saw something in either the Mid-O supps or pre-event communications (email, most likely) reiterating that the flag station shows the flag condition and is the "official" track status (such as for on course conduct, protests etc.), while the Flagtronics display is an advisory. But flag station condition takes precedence/overrides.
It was certainly clear to me going into the event that this was the case.
Then again, some are still just now finding out about FIA rain lights, so... :tire:
Found this video for integrating Flagtronics with AIM systems that have a programmable CAN bus input.
Also got the FT200 dimensions from Flagtronics. It's a lot smaller than I envisioned, so hopefully I can mount it in a visible location and not deal with the AIM integration.
https://www.youtube.com/live/W4NMQyTPbBY
Yeah, I was pleased with how small it was... didn't get around to posting pics of mine installed, but you can see it in my video from Mid-O, tucked under the cowl just fine with a little shelf to hang by...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smGpVy79gTs
Hhhow much did it help you with anticipating and responding to the flags??
Curious minds want to know:)
Why did the FT show checkered flag throughout the carousel on the first lap? That is very concerning. I also couldn't see a yellow flag that corresponded to the LY on that same lap. Is the delay between the actual green flag and the FT showing green intentional to prevent jumped starts?Quote:
Originally Posted by 924RACR
I wasn't there .. much less in the car.. BUT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B
FT wasn't showing CHECKER on that first lap - it was just GREEN. (one of the comments I have sent to FT). FT goes GREEN for about 15? seconds at the start and then goes (if no other flags) to a 'reduced green' indication.. which varies for reasons I don't understand.. Some times it's just a green DOT and other times it's a varying 'dot pattern' (like what you saw). I do NOT like that at all and have let them know - some MONTHS ago. Green should show when the GREEN FLAG is waved .. for some relatively short time.. after that NOTHING.. and I mean NOTHING should be shown UNLESS there is a FLAG CONDITION CHANGE that requires driver action. As for the LY on lap 1, I also saw nothing... possibly something in the PITS or boneyard could have triggered it (overlapping 'envelopes of coverage'? Still LOTS of things to 'learn about' for FT and all of us as well).
The delay in showing the green is also one of the issues I previously pointed out. The START GREEN is MANUALLY triggered MANUALLY by the FTOP in Race Control - normally by WATCHING Start. In this case, that OP was probably in the normal START/FINISH tower coming out of the carousel... but the actual START was mid ways down the back straight at about T5 1/2. Most likely OUT OF VIEW of the main tower. SO the FTOP was probably re-acting to what he was seeing on the video monitors and it took him some 3 seconds to be SURE that the green was out.
Just guessing :D:D
Steve, FV80
... actually.. going back and looking again, that DOES appear to be Black/White Checker rather than GREEN/White in the 1st lap carousel... SO.. I have NO IDEA why on that one.
Did anyone get the DB flag?
It did help, BIG time, in one specific case not shown here. I think I mentioned it in a previous post in this thread; during quali, a car had spun just in China Beach, was still parked across track just wide of the track-out point, waving yellow... the Flagtronics gave me warning in the middle of the back straight to anticipate the yellow, which was wonderful coming steaming into that corner at some 135mph or so in iffy/damp conditions with sub-optimal visibility!Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
Wasn't a factor in the race, as we ran green (at least, while I was out there).
The yellow on the front straight, as noted in the comments, was probably an erroneous trigger (human-initiated, to my understanding) for a flat tow active in the pits for another P2 which overheated on the pace lap... blown HG...
The debris flag was most confusing to me, it was the one that didn't automatically register like green, yellow or red. The first time I got the flag, I caught it out the bottom of my eye, had to look down at the flagtronics to get a better look and I thought, what is the tan color flag? Then I passed the station holding the debris flag. Next lap I got it again and took a better look, it was red dots reading DB over yellow. Without taking more than a brief glance I saw it as solid tan, but at least have an idea of what I am seeing in my peripheral for future reference. It looks like the color blind tests, Glad I eventually passed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by romoman
I wasn't operating Flagtronics at Mid Ohio, but I was at Road Atlanta, VIR and Watkins Glen Supertour (just this past weekend).
I'll try to answer these questions:
Saw this, don't know. There are only two controllers that can signal a checkered flag - the "full course" controller in operations and then the start stand can show a local checker. Because of where this was, I almost wonder if this was a local checker displayed by S/F.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B
I wasn't in the tower so this is only speculation but my guess is it was accidentally left it on from the previous race. Accidentally leaving it on should have been seen by the workers in control before the race and changed, so that feels weird to me but it could have happened.
I didn't see it either, and it wouldn't show a yellow for something on pit road (we don't have a zones for flags on pit road). It could be a couple things - if a car went off and came right back on, the flagger might take a second to "clear" the yellow and you might see the delay in the dropping of the digital flag in that case. (Or, if this was a split start there could be an issue as well because that process is complicated and I could see it creating this issue. I can explain more if needed.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B
Short answer: Yes-ish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B
Longer answer: At Road Atlanta, we watched the start stand and pushed the green light as we saw the starter wave the green the same way a spotter might call, "green green green" over a radio. But, because of the hill there and the fact not everyone had the Flagtronics unit it created a situation where drivers with Flagtronics saw the green light and reacted to it before the Turn 10/11 workers had time to hear the radio call from control AND drop the double yellows.
So those drivers were not "jumping" the start, but it did create a situation of having a light that could contradict the flags they see. Because of that we've made the choice to listen to the radio instead of watching the flag stand, and then pushing the button as if we were dropping a double yellow so that the flagtronics and all local yellows will "match up." This means a purposeful delay of a couple of seconds and that's what you saw here.
As I keep saying as we work through this process, more people adopt the unit, etc:
Use the Flagtronics as an extra reminder to check the next flag station closely. If you see a Flagtronics flag but not a cloth flag, assume either the incident was gone and there was a delay in the flagger pushing the clear button, or there was an initial operator error. From everything I've seen - false flags are operator error and not the system having an issue.