SCCA & Runoffs Complaints

[Jnovak]

I feel sorry for you guys if you think every letter that is sent to SCCA deserves a personal response. The organization is simply too big for that. Most issues have technical a well as political aspect to them. A good technical request is pointless if you do not have the politics aligned to support it.

Brian

spot on!

[MotorCade]

I feel sorry for you guys if you think every letter that is sent to SCCA deserves a personal response. The organization is simply too big for that. Most issues have technical a well as political aspect to them. A good technical request is pointless if you do not have the politics aligned to support it.

Brian

Yes, obviously I demand a personal response to every letter. /s

The process is still crap.

[Steve Bamford]

Most issues have technical a well as political aspect to them. A good technical request is pointless if you do not have the politics aligned to support it.

Brian

So your saying part of it is technical as well as who you know? Sounds like a great process.

[Jnovak]

So your saying part of it is technical as well as who you know? Sounds like a great process.

frankly i do not think that who you know means anything at all. I simply think that the BOD has their own thoughts about what is good for the future of the SCCA.

Note that i did not use the word Club.

[problemchild]

Writing a letter to SCCA is one of the least rewarding experiences in motorsport.

Steps.
1) Pour your heart and soul out in a letter, spending hours finding just the perfect words to express your view.
2) Send your letter.
3) wait.
4) Get an automated reply that your letter was received.
5) wait
6) wait more
7) Get an automate reply that your letter was forwarded to SCCA people
8) wait
9) wait some more
10) wait some more
11) read on Apexspeed that the issue was incorrectly communicated between SCCA people and there is confusion between SCCA people to what the issue is all about
12) wait some more
13) wait some more
14) read on Apexspeed from Pam Richardson that "prelims are posted
15) spend half an hour following links and trying to figure out WTF all that mumble jumble means.
16) finding your issue, and seeing that your issue is unchanged from previously, and that yours, and other heart and soul letters, were dismissed with a single line such as " the Board feels that no action is necessary at this time".
17) Bonus. If your topic is real hot, you receive quiet off-the-record communication from people on the peripheral explaining who the bad guys are, what is really behind the issue, and why it won't be resolved to your satisfaction.

How many letters have we all wrote that followed this course. As Steve said, following the same same process, and expecting a different outcome, is ........

Don't waste your time. You have 4 options.
Accept that nothing will change and you will endure it.
Get a lawyer
Start removing yourself from SCCA racing.
Find other racing groups for you and your friends to take your racing business to.

Faced recently with a very similar situation, I am working very hard on the last 2 options.

Many SCCA management people have read your concerns here. If they were going to make it right, they can make it right. It will be no less "comedic" if you write a letter.

It would seem that the recent comments in this thread would suggest that Thomas' letter would be a waste of time. It seems like a very important issue that should have had a personal SCCA response ..... here and now!. He was just ignored by people in SCCA management who replied to other posts on Apexspeed in the last few days. Why wait 6 months, to not get a personal response, after he writes a letter? We will be into another calendar year, and another round of political tactics. Better to get on with other options!

[Jnovak]

John has stated in the past we need to collectively come to an agreement or at least something close to an agreement and then send in our opinions to the SCCA. John worked up a Runoffs solution a while back and I sent that in, how many others did or at least if they were not in agreement modified it and sent in? I would bet not many.

There are a lot of folks on this site and with that are all OW SCCA members. We should use this forum to come up with a common solution and then all send it in. If we do that SCCA can't ignore our voice. I would say the group on Apex make up the majority of open wheel drivers in SCCA so we have the numbers.

Can we put out a survey or poll on Apex to narrow down the changes and then draft a final copy that we can all agree on and then send it in. This goes for everything from the Runoffs to Majors and Divisional races discussions.

As for the idea of having a large OW weekend to crown a champion the only person that has the capabilities to do that is Bob Wright. He has experience with the FRP and knows the tracks. I bet if he came up with a European type Formula Ford Festival type race or and Walter Hayes Trophy type weekend for most of the OW classes once a year I bet he could get good numbers to come out. Just a thought.

Brian

this is a great idea and you should make it happen

[pacratt]

So your saying part of it is technical as well as who you know? Sounds like a great process.

I believe the point trying to be made was that the technical proposal needs to be supported with a sales pitch - I.e.: "Here is my idea AND this is how it benefits SCCA."
The BoD isn't interested in change unless there's a direct benefit to the organization.

Glenn

[Steve Bamford]

I believe the point trying to be made was that the technical proposal needs to be supported with a sales pitch - I.e.: "Here is my idea AND this is how it benefits SCCA."
The BoD isn't interested in change unless there's a direct benefit to the organization.

Glenn

i've experienced the popularity contest before...

Saying much more won't benefit me so I'll leave it at that. I will & have voted with my wallet.

[pacratt]

i've experienced the popularity contest before...

Saying much more won't benefit me so I'll leave it at that. I will & have voted with my wallet.

Understood.

Glenn

[swiftdrivr]

"I'm surprised to hear this as autocross is pretty damn cheap. Here in SoCal, typical SCCA autocross events cost $35 for adults and $25 for students. Just run what you have, assuming it's not a roll-over risk. People run all kinds of cars and sometimes even on all-season tires, lol.

Or pick up one of the many cheap NA Miatas for sale, slap on performance street tires, and have fun. That'll get you started. Build up from there. Parts are cheap. Where there's a will, there's a way. :-)"



Back in the day, I saw a guy solo his station wagon, which was there because he was towing his son's home-built solo car. A lot of it is the expectation of the participant, I guess. I've seen a DB-1 for sale for $12,000 recently, and another with a spare motor for $16,000. Old club fords are even cheaper. Old Miata's can be had dirt cheap. The FF spec tire has reduced running cost. I towed my first FF behind a four cylinder mustang, on a home built open trailer, and slept in the hatchback.
Unfortunately, choices have exploded as incomes have imploded, and the car culture isn't as strong among young people as it was in our day. The profusion of classes dilute competition and confuse the uninitiated [and some of the rest of us too] The expense required to put on the show and the diminished number of entrys per class [ dilution effect ] for an ever-expanding number of classes mandate that anyone who will pay be allowed to run, and that killed the prestige of the runoffs. I think that had a HUGE psychological impact on the runoffs and the club. But like no politician will ever tell someone who has been given access to your tax-money that they now have to pull their own weight, nobody is going to tell you someone with an SCCA class legal car that they can't run anymore. [those who compete in a non-runoffs class still dilute the runoffs classes] Seeing the problem doesn't always lead to an optimal solution, unfortunately. Twelve-fourteen heavily subscribed classes with participants competing for slots in the runoffs is healthier than 24 classes, six or eight of which just barely have the numbers to keep afloat, and in which anyone can get an invite, but changing that dynamic isn't likely to happen. SCCA just added a new class or two, if I recall correctly.
That said, the runoffs are in my region next year, at my favorite track, and even though my meager talents seem to have left me I had planned to go. However, I've heard quotes of $8-9000 for the week, and there is no way I'm paying that. Still looking into it, but....

[Ralph Z.]

Writing a letter to SCCA is one of the least rewarding experiences in motorsport.

Steps.
1) Pour your heart and soul out in a letter, spending hours finding just the perfect words to express your view.
2) Send your letter.
3) wait.
4) Get an automated reply that your letter was received.
5) wait
6) wait more
7) Get an automate reply that your letter was forwarded to SCCA people
8) wait
9) wait some more
10) wait some more
11) read on Apexspeed that the issue was incorrectly communicated between SCCA people and there is confusion between SCCA people to what the issue is all about
12) wait some more
13) wait some more
14) read on Apexspeed from Pam Richardson that "prelims are posted
15) spend half an hour following links and trying to figure out WTF all that mumble jumble means.
16) finding your issue, and seeing that your issue is unchanged from previously, and that yours, and other heart and soul letters, were dismissed with a single line such as " the Board feels that no action is necessary at this time".
17) Bonus. If your topic is real hot, you receive quiet off-the-record communication from people on the peripheral explaining who the bad guys are, what is really behind the issue, and why it won't be resolved to your satisfaction.

How many letters have we all wrote that followed this course. As Steve said, following the same same process, and expecting a different outcome, is ........

Don't waste your time. You have 4 options.
Accept that nothing will change and you will endure it.
Get a lawyer
Start removing yourself from SCCA racing.
Find other racing groups for you and your friends to take your racing business to.

Faced recently with a very similar situation, I am working very hard on the last 2 options.

Many SCCA management people have read your concerns here. If they were going to make it right, they can make it right. It will be no less "comedic" if you write a letter.

I like that last two options. Take your racing elsewhere. I believe we are at a point in time where the amateur racing landscape is changing. Note how smaller fragments of racing have appeared. ie. F1600, F2000. And, some race groups have left SCCA almost intirely, ie. Sports 2000. I predict that SCCA will remain in a reduced scope of its previous self.

[Jnovak]

I have written at least 10 letters to the CRB over my many years as an SCCA member and my success rate has been about 50%. The vast majority of my letters ( about 7) were written many years before i became a member of the FSRAC.

I can tell you what succeeds
1. Be reasonable
2. Have a plan
3. Be consise
4. Show how you think it will benefit the SCCA.

For example about 25 years ago i got the Rotax 494 500cc 2 stroke engine approved for use in F500. I had a plan.
1. I called every snomobile manufacturer that sold 500cc sleds in the usa to see if they were interesred in supplying after market engines to the F500 community
2. One of the 4 manufacturers was interested. That was Bombardier.
3. I bought a new engine from them
4. I dynoed the current 2 legal engines and the new Rotax (Bombardier) engine
5. I prepared a complete report for the club
6. They approved the Rotax 494 500cc engine.
7 the engines were then legal the following year.

Now i had asked for advice from people who were on tech and rules groups within the club on how to make this happen and i followed that advice.

Admittedly I and another guy financed all the dyno work but the point is that i followed the plan and succeded in getting the Rotax 494 engine approved.

You can do the same imo. Not easy but doable.

I am now almost 77 years old now and i no longer have the extra time and energy to do another big proposal. I have ideas and so must many of you.

Put a plan together. Get supporters and do it right and there is a decent chance that you will succeed. Good ideas and plans are what it takes not complaints.

Go for it!

[pacratt]

1. Be reasonable
2. Have a plan
3. Be consise
4. Show how you think it will benefit the SCCA.

Exactly !
Complaints are ignored.
Solutions garner results.

Glenn

[Thomas Copeland]

Originally posted by problemchild

It would seem that the recent comments in this thread would suggest that Thomas' letter would be a waste of time. It seems like a very important issue that should have had a personal SCCA response ..... here and now!. He was just ignored by people in SCCA management who replied to other posts on Apexspeed in the last few days. Why wait 6 months, to not get a personal response, after he writes a letter? We will be into another calendar year, and another round of political tactics. Better to get on with other options!

I agree. Letters are a complete waste of time. The next correspondence they (SCCA) get from me on this is one that will be served on them ( I've already been in consultation). This ain't over. Not yet. I'm back from vacation and taking it all back up right where I left off. It might be a couple months until you hear more about this but stay tuned. It 's coming...

[sccadsr31]

Steve,

You ask valid questions. But i worry that those that have not experienced the Runoffs in their hay day won't understand the yearning for past glory in the minds of many old timers.
Sort of like the the T-shirt i saw a few years ago... "If you have to ask the question, then you won't understand the answer".

There was a time in Camelot that the Runoffs were a true national championship in which the best of the best raced for the title.
The prestige of victory was great. It was a true annual "gathering of the clans" where the whos-who of every facet of racing came together for a week long festival. The well informed announcers provided a colorful commentary over crackling loudspeakers all around the track. The best tech people, the best corner workers, the best timing and scoring teams, manufacturers, suppliers, racers, engineers... all together for a week of socializing and racing. Spectators who planned their schedules long in advance came in large numbers camping in the infield for days on end. Campfires burned late into the night surrounded by bench racers telling memorable tales of truth and fiction. Local restaurants and bars filled every evening with the racing community. It seemed like the newest break throughs in technology would always first show up at the runoffs. The ADF, the DB1, mid-engine V-8 Corvairs...

It was such a big deal that just getting an invite sort of made you a big deal back at your home region. A runoffs patch on your drivers suit said you were somebody. In the community of road racing it was the holy grail.

Now scroll forward to today. The old-timers are looking back through rose tinted glasses of nostalgia longing for the "good old days". Those that were too young to compete way back when wish it was still that way so they too could enjoy that great experience. Everybody is pissed that it isn't still the way it used to be.

Camelot is no more. Spectators don't want to camp for days in tents in freezing rain, walking down muddy roads to use unsanitary infield restrooms. Doctors don't want to take a week off from their practices to work in the "quack shack". Corner workers can't afford to attend on their own budget. Tracks raised their fees. Motels jacked up their prices. Sponsors left because there was no live TV coverage. The racers and their machines became much more sophisticated. The average guy just quit having a big allotment of leave time. There are so many reasons.

People just don't want to believe Camelot is history. So they argue to try to get it back. The reason many stick with SCCA is that it still is the only sanctioning body with a true national championship. It is still the sanctioning body with the rules set that most other sanctioning groups copy or modify. In most minds its the only sanctioning body that can save the Runoffs.

It was not a true National Championship in the eyes of the west coast folks who simply could not invest the time and money to travel to the east coast. I went to Road Atlanta once because it was a really big deal to me. After that I stayed on the west and ran a lot more races with the money it took to go east. It was without question a memorable experience that still means a lot to me but I think these days are just as good as those days.
David