FV disc brakes

[Lucien j LeBlanc]

Ok then… what is the design of their system? Who's hubs are they using? Why is the CC not following their lead?

Brian

As I understand, formula vee in other countries use the VW standard front ball joint axle beam, disc brakes etc. As I am sure we all know that Formula First rules were written such that they provide a practical way to convert existing formula vee race cars to Formula First which uses the standard front ball joint axle beam, disc brakes etc.
It occurred to me that the formula vee class could retain the 1200cc FV motor, use 4 bolt VW standard steel wheels of appropriate width (say 4.5 inch wide) to retain the 15 inch diameter slick tires and adopt the formula first rules for the front axle beam, and disc brakes front and rear. There are of course some issues as there would be a lot more weight to deal with going this way.
To partially, mitigate the weight issues, existing link pin cars would need to add ballast and ball joint cars could be allowed to use light weight wheels as they do in other countries. The advantages are obvious, less cost to convert to disc brakes, maintaining the original concept of formula vee as much as practical (i.e. cheap racing) , simplicity of design and greater availability of "stock parts" . If FV was an SCCA Enterprise class they would simply run two groups for a couple of years and phase out the old rules. I know we are not an SCCA enterprise class but no pain no gain. One other thing to consider is that if the rules were written right existing FST cars could be easily changed to run 1200cc motors, etc. improving the participation in FV national racing (Majors). 1600cc FST cars are confined to only regional races and cannot run nationals this is hurting both classes.

I am in favor of disc brakes and only offer the above as food for thought....

Lou LeBlanc, FV, FST

[S Lathrop]

VW Chico in South Africa... Golf to the rest of us. Also the source of the 1400cc engines.
I believe you are correct about its specs. Ray, Dad & others feel that the 4-piston caliper in this proposal is too much, hence our 2-piston FVCC package. If the MUCH faster FVSA cars can use them with no problems, our slow US-spec Vees would be more than fine not using 4. Ray, Johan Ed Womer & a few others would have more to say about them, as they all have raced both cars now.

http://www.formulavee.co.za/index.php/the-car/

We tried 4 piston calipers on the Citation F1000. We changed to 2 piston calipers.

One issue you will find as you go through the development is how critical pad and rotor temperatures are to really good brake performance. Bigger brakes don't assure better brake performance. And from personal experience, bigger can lead to some surprising problems that will defy a good explanation.

None or the pictures you have shown have wheels anything close to what a FV wheel is.

[Hardingfv32]

Matt… Thanks for the insight.

Steve… Steve if you look at the South African rules it is not clear what they are doing for hubs that allows them to use a traditional 4 bolt pattern wheel. What is clear is that they must use stock Golf discs and calipers (stock pads).

I cannot image machining existing brake drums to accept these requirements. Did the type 1 suspension ever come with a 4 bolt pattern?

?cdn.entelectonline.co.za/wm-122183-cmsimages/2014FORMULAVEE(National).pdf

Thanks for the 2 vs 4 piston caliper recommendation. I have heard that the thought behind using the 4 piston caliper (curvature) is that they fit better with our current wheel configuration.

Brian

[Matt Clark]

We tried 4 piston calipers on the Citation F1000. We changed to 2 piston calipers.

One issue you will find as you go through the development is how critical pad and rotor temperatures are to really good brake performance. Bigger brakes don't assure better brake performance. And from personal experience, bigger can lead to some surprising problems that will defy a good explanation.

None or the pictures you have shown have wheels anything close to what a FV wheel is.

Yea, we know the temps will have a big effect on things. We had to start somewhere, and this was the recommendation. Keep in mind, we're still a WIP.

as far as wheels pics go... I can't really do much about that. Almost no one still uses the tiny wheels & link pin beams together. Both FVCC & FVSA use 14x6 wheels.

[S Lathrop]

I did spend a lot of time studying what it was going to take to make a disk brake setup for FV. I did not find anything off the shelf that was going to work as well as parts specifically built for the FV application. Given that ICP has built hundreds of calipers for FF and FC, I had a good idea of the costs involved building calipers, brake hats and rotors.

The caliper design I came up with was actually developed from work I did on a motor cycle powered car with FF performance. That project was very cost driven. I actually chose 13 x 6 inch steel wheels that had wide 5 mounting, 5 lugs welded to the rim. Similar to FV. Once I set those parameters, the caliper and the rest was driven by the wheel choice. The caliper I did for the FV project was not the same as the bike powered project.

[Hardingfv32]

Can anyone make a statement about the weight of the possible conversions?

I get the feeling that it is necessary to have aluminum hubs and calipers to match the weight of the existing drum system. Is this true?

Brian

[DannyPip]

@ Brian post #123:

Yes, VW eventually came with 4 lugs.1967 the ball-joint beam came out(or was it 1966?), still in wide5. 1968 the Bug switched to 4 x 130mm but was still swing-axle. In 1969 they went IRS rear suspension and used the 4 lug pattern after that. This is why you can get rear drums for both swing and IRS in either pattern. IDK if you can get 4x130 in disc or drum for link-pin front end. But blanks and custom in any pattern are available.

FWIW I have a rear single VW caliper(with ebrake, it's a street car) in a 550 Spyder replica at 1500 pounds and I've not been able to introduce fade on a very high speed road rally. The front is 4 piston Wilwood, both kits are from Airkewld and not cheap.

I have been a Vee fan for years and have finally got to a point(retirement soon, YAY!) where I can go racing.

This thread is great and of high interest to me, but I have no dogs in this fight yet.

[killerken53]

Vs Chico seems to be a version of the Citi Golf, a version of the mk1 golf (rabbit in the us). So I would assume they are running the watercooled 4×100 bolt pattern. They do look like the old 9.4in solid rotors.

[S Lathrop]

Can anyone make a statement about the weight of the possible conversions?

I get the feeling that it is necessary to have aluminum hubs and calipers to match the weight of the existing drum system. Is this true?

Brian

From the models I have done, the weight of the conversion is about 21 pounds. That is the spindle, brake hat, rotor and cast iron hub (cut down brake drum). The bearings and nuts are not included. My model of the spindle probably under states the weight by a half pound. Changing the hub to aluminum reduces the weight to 13 pounds. My spindle model weighs 2 pounds.

Some one needs to weigh the equivalent collection of parts for a drum brake setup. I don't have the parts associated with the backing plate and brake system.

[Michael_Clark]

1) Still no stated or estimated prices. The Jamar 4 corner retail prices are: $1600 (2 piston) and $1800 (4 piston). So your hope is for what…. 10% group buy discount for a final price of about $1440. For those that do not make the group buy it should be the full retail.

If these kits use customized hubs and brackets… will they be more expensive than similar retail items if purchased at a later date?

2) Who and how is a group buy administered? How many CC competitors are actually ready to put up $1400. This whole project seems out of character for the cost conscious CC series. What has changed?


The Jamar purchase might be fine for a restricted group like CC but I do not think the average SCCA FV competitor (interested in disc brakes) is going to happy restricted to one small manufacture. Most the competitors who spring for this conversions are not going to be put off by the extra expense of road race proven parts from major manufactures.

Brian

Everybody must keep in mind that this thread is specific to the Formula Vee Ad Hoc Committee's disc brake recommendation to SCCA. It has nothing to do with the Challenge Cup FRONT disc brake ONLY proposal. The CCS has been working on front disc brakes for months, including the recent test at Watkins Glen. Only coincidentally, did the Ad Hoc release it's proposal the week of the CCS test. One has nothing to do with the other. The Challenge Cup Series is ONLY proposing front disc brakes for next year to reduce the capital outlay for the series participants. Nothing has changed regarding the CCS's mission.

[BLS]

"Some one needs to weigh..."

From my weight numbers I have the following, bathroom scale accuracy, spindle not broken out separately:
(edit - apparently I added 2 pounds per wheel cylinder - don't know why. This is from my list of all parts on the car)


1.Beam with needle bearings and bushings (weighed) 27
2.Springs and sway bar (weighed) 09
3.Trailing arms, LP carrier, spindle (13 side, weighed) 26
4.Backing plates and brakes (3.0 each side w/o wheelcylinder, weighed) 10
5.Brake drums (13 pounds each w/bearings & wheel studs, weighed) 26

[Hardingfv32]

Everybody must keep in mind that this thread is specific to the Formula Vee Ad Hoc Committee's disc brake recommendation to SCCA. It has nothing to do with the Challenge Cup FRONT disc brake ONLY proposal. The CCS has been working on front disc brakes for months, including the recent test at Watkins Glen. Only coincidentally, did the Ad Hoc release it's proposal the week of the CCS test. One has nothing to do with the other. The Challenge Cup Series is ONLY proposing front disc brakes for next year to reduce the capital outlay for the series participants. Nothing has changed regarding the CCS's mission.

1) Except that it would much more appealing to have a system that could also be SCCA legal when you go to sell your car.

2) So the CC proposal/development program is only for the front wheels. That means the group purchase/discount applies only to the front wheels.

More useful details. Thanks

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

Front brake weights without bearings and removing the spindle (2 lb.) from Steve's model. Since Steve did not specify the caliper I am adding 2 lb. for the caliper weight.

Stock drum and backing plate assembly: 15.50 lb.

Steve's disc - steel hub: 21 lb.

Steve's disc - Aluminum hub: 13 lb.

The steel conversion is 5.5 lb. heavy and aluminum 2.5 lb. light. So the aluminum hub conversions will need to be made heavier.

Steve…

1) What is the difference in weight between a steel LD-19/20 caliper vs aluminum unit?

2) How did you attach the disc bell to the machined stock steel front drum/hub?

Brian

[Jim Kleinklaus]

Yea, Jamars page is light on info. But that was asked early in the thread..... per post #9, track is the same. That is one of our requirements.
Instead of us just writing a bunch of words for a proposed rule & letting people scramble to find something that may work, we are actually getting parts to fit existing track rules (part of that time & effort I mentioned before) & giving a part number for people to just go buy. No need to fabricate or mix & match random stuff. We are trying to make our cars simple. Buy X kit & bolt it on. When someone bends or breaks something, all they have to do is open a catalog or website & order.

- no track change
- same weight
- uses the same bearings we already use
- no performance advantage (per Ray, you cannot suddenly drive deeper into the corner)

We will never be able to make anything 100% identical to a drum setup, but even drums vary between cars. Some guys turn drums to lighten them, some guys use old smoothies that are narrower, etc. These will simply be an option, not a requirement.
As someone else said in here, the absolute top guys probably will still be able to get a drum setup to work a little better. But what this does, is allows new or less experienced racers to have good brakes. It another step to even out the playing field. Less maintenance is always a good thing, and we people just waiting to for it.

I don't understand the rationale.If Vee Challenge loses the ability for someone in another series to slap on the wide rims with the treaded tires, it loses the biggest advantage it has to attract many new, some part time members and entrants. By definition, the two brakes will never be equal.I realize they are used by other countries, but so what? Challenge Cup's realistic main audience is the US and it's biggest opportunity is simple, bolt on conversion from other series in the US. Some vintage groups are discussing allowing newer vees into their events, as SARA does on the west coast.

[S Lathrop]

Front brake weights without bearings and removing the spindle (2 lb.) from Steve's model. Since Steve did not specify the caliper I am adding 2 lb. for the caliper weight.

Stock drum and backing plate assembly: 15.50 lb.

Steve's disc - steel hub: 21 lb.

Steve's disc - Aluminum hub: 13 lb.

The steel conversion is 5.5 lb. heavy and aluminum 2.5 lb. light. So the aluminum hub conversions will need to be made heavier.

Steve…

1) What is the difference in weight between a steel LD-19/20 caliper vs aluminum unit?

2) How did you attach the disc bell to the machined stock steel front drum/hub?

Brian

The 21 and 13 pounds include the caliper but not the pads. The pads are LD19 and probably would add 0.6 lbs. If I take 2 pounds out for the spindle and add the pad weight, we have 19.6 pounds with a modified drum and 11.6 pounds with an aluminum part replacing the modified drum. My caliper is just under 3 pounds with pads.

[B Farnham]

I don't understand the rationale.If Vee Challenge loses the ability for someone in another series to slap on the wide rims with the treaded tires, it loses the biggest advantage it has to attract many new, some part time members and entrants. By definition, the two brakes will never be equal.I realize they are used by other countries, but so what? Challenge Cup's realistic main audience is the US and it's biggest opportunity is simple, bolt on conversion from other series in the US. Some vintage groups are discussing allowing newer vees into their events, as SARA does on the west coast.

It takes all of an hour or so to swap the brakes and tires to run in either series. The guys that are fast now will still be at the front regardless of what brakes they run.

The challenge cup has been so successful because it actually acts on what the membership wants. They're now the largest group in the country like it or not.

How many years have we talked about spec tires and disc brakes and nothing changed. It took a group of people acting on their own to make some real change.

There's really no need to talk about what the design should be because there is already a finished product that works.

If you look at those posting for the brakes most of those in favor of the discs are the younger guys in the class. We didn't grow up with drums like the other generations did.

If you're for discs make sure you write in your letters.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

There's really no need to talk about what the design should be because there is already a finished product that works.

No need if you accept a product developed by competitors with no disc brake experience/knowledge and a manufacture that sells dune buggy brakes.

Part of this discussion is to develop a knowledge base for those of us that know nothing about road racing disc brakes. Make us smarter competitors/consumers and allow us to critique proposed rule.

Brian

[Matt Clark]

I don't understand the rationale.If Vee Challenge loses the ability for someone in another series to slap on the wide rims with the treaded tires, it loses the biggest advantage it has to attract many new, some part time members and entrants. By definition, the two brakes will never be equal.I realize they are used by other countries, but so what? Challenge Cup's realistic main audience is the US and it's biggest opportunity is simple, bolt on conversion from other series in the US. Some vintage groups are discussing allowing newer vees into their events, as SARA does on the west coast.

what aspect of the rationale are you referring to?

the 2 different types of brakes can be made to be very similar. Ray himself proved that this weekend. by not making an all-out race system, we are controlling that. if you leave an open ruleset, then yes... a much better system could possibly come about. as stated several times in this thread, these are an optional conversion for our series. as Brian said as well... the fast guys will always be up front, but this simple conversion allows those who do not spend a lot of effort on drum systems to be on a leveled playing field. that is the entire point of FV as a class.

yes, the FVCC audience is the US members. and those members have voiced that they want updates. and yes, the biggest opportunity is a simple bolt-on conversion. but this is where you miss the part where there is no other series with discs in the US, and that FVCC is technically further along in development on the project.

No need if you accept a product developed by competitors with no disc brake experience/knowledge and a manufacture that sells dune buggy brakes.

you are assuming no one involved or consulted has any disc brake experience. I would not assume that.

[B Farnham]

No need if you accept a product developed by competitors with no disc brake experience/knowledge and a manufacture that sells dune buggy brakes.

Part of this discussion is to develop a knowledge base for those of us that know nothing about road racing disc brakes. Make us smarter competitors/consumers and allow us to critique proposed rule.

Brian

All I see are people who are not drivers/racers following the typical pattern of a lot of talk and no action.

If you can build a better kit and fund it all yourself than go for it, I'm sure it'll be another 10 years before it's done.

And a kit built by someone who specializes in brakes and specifically VW's that's made of billet and affordable is exactly what we need. The fact that someone like Ray who has been around FV his who life helped developed this is a big positive not a negative.

Start building your own kits or accept what has been developed. I can't bolt drawings and theorys on my car but I'll soon be able to order this whole kit with part numbers and everything.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

If I take 2 pounds out for the spindle and add the pad weight, we have 19.6 pounds with a modified drum and 11.6 pounds with an aluminum part replacing the modified drum. My caliper is just under 3 pounds with pads.

So then with the stock drum and backing plate assembly at 15.5 lb…..

1) 4.1 lb. heavy with steel hub

2) 3.9 lb. light with aluminum hub

What is the Jamar front system weight? Was any effort made to make the weight the same as the stock assembly? This conversion does not fly if the weights are not at least equal. The is an easy to see performance equality concern.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

you are assuming no one involved or consulted has any disc brake experience. I would not assume that.

Who are they and what other disc brake systems have they developed for road racing? Jamar does dune buggies. They do not have any products listed for road racing applications.

Brian

[Matt Clark]

What is the Jamar front system weight? Was any effort made to make the weight the same as the stock assembly? This conversion does not fly if the weights are not at least equal. The is an easy to see performance equality concern

yes, we definitely weighed everything for both setups so far. but right now I do not have the list, and Ray has all the hardware yet. also keep in mind, we have new, solid rotors on the way. that will add more rotational mass yet too.

[B Farnham]

Who are they and what other disc brake systems have they developed for road racing? Jamar does dune buggies. They do not have any products listed for road racing applications.

Brian

Wouldn't you think dune buggies take more abuse than our cars? And honesty how do you mess up a disc brake? If it spins freely and stops it does it's job.

Come up with a better physical product to compare this to and we'll listen, until then it's nothing but talk.

Off to the Runoffs, I've put in my 2 cents.

Brian

[Matt Clark]

Who are they and what other disc brake systems have they developed for road racing? Jamar does dune buggies. They do not have any products listed for road racing applications.

Brian

it's not my place to name everyone. sorry. I am not trying to sound covert, but every time something new is talked about, a complete hornets nest gets wound up & some people don't want to be in it publically.

[Hardingfv32]

All I see are people who are not drivers/racers following the typical pattern of a lot of talk and no action.

As a class we have attempted disc brake conversion many times before. It has never gotten anywhere before because the cost model was not acceptable. Brake shoe costs were much more reasonable in the past. What makes this current conversion discussion viable is the high price and maintenance of Carbotech shoes. The cost model has shifted.

The CC's Jamar approach has a lot of issues:

1) You are only talking about the front brakes
2) The manufacture has no road racing experience
3) Competitors are locked in to a single source of brake components
4) Prices are not that great if you do not do the group buy
5) I doubt that the kit has a weight equal the the stock drum components (if I am wrong please state how the Jamar unit is being made heavier.)

The Jamar retail for 4 corners is $1600. The SCCA competitors I know will not be hesitant to spend more for a better system if $1600 is the minimum starting point.

Yes… finding the right components to build a FV conversion will not be easy but I am not sure locking in with Jamar is the answer.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

Wouldn't you think dune buggies take more abuse than our cars? And honesty how do you mess up a disc brake? If it spins freely and stops it does it's job.

Clearly you are not giving this subject any serious design consideration. Your assuming the other guys know what they are doing. I do not.

Have you read any of the Lathrop posts. There is a lot to this subject.

What tests have been made to test for disc drag?

Good Luck at Indy
Brian

[Jim Kleinklaus]

Again, this update will be optional + the goal is no performance change. There has been a LOT of pushback about a car that still uses drum brakes in this era.
Also, do not forget that the insane price of shoes + some drums goes away with the disc brakes. So what may seem like a huge cost is actually a savings in a short amount of time.
And as far as the Honda argument goes, after racing with FRP, I see that it has helped. There are a LOT of people that have made the conversion + love the ease of operation. Again with that, a bit of an initial investment to change, but day to day use is simplified, and end cost is way less. Greg Rice has an excellent post along these lines with his Tweener Conversion post.

i think this is driven by FV Challenge to be in line with other countries. Right now, i have the SCCA option, especially the North East FV group, buying a set of whatever the approved 2018 treaded tire will be for FV Challenge for the Canadian 1200 rims I already have in my shop, or running with at least one vintage group that is considering opening up FV (with narrow treaded tires on VW rims) to more recent vees. Disc brakes ends all that and going with only whichever group runs those. For FV Challenge, this seriously lessens the possible support they might get from drivers running those Challenge events they can fit into their schedule by just changing their tires/rims before they head for the track. I have heard FV Challenge is already looking at a sealed new motor from VW, which means a whole new race car--a lot to consider down the road.

[Matt Clark]

i think this is driven by FV Challenge to be in line with other countries. Right now, i have the SCCA option, especially the North East FV group, buying a set of whatever the approved 2018 treaded tire will be for FV Challenge for the Canadian 1200 rims I already have in my shop, or running with at least one vintage group that is considering opening up FV (with narrow treaded tires on VW rims) to more recent vees. Disc brakes ends all that and going with only whichever group runs those. For FV Challenge, this seriously lessens the possible support they might get from drivers running those Challenge events they can fit into their schedule by just changing their tires/rims before they head for the track. I have heard FV Challenge is already looking at a sealed new motor from VW, which means a whole new race car--a lot to consider down the road.

No, it is not driven by CC trying to be in line with other countries... if it was, we'd simply go with their brake solutions. It's driven by lots of support by member + racers tired of antiquated cars that cost more than they should for what they are.
To me, the fact that vintage groups are accepting our cars as-is without changing anything, says a lot... and I don't see it as good.

Again, discs will be OPTIONAL, so you will still be able to run with whatever group you choose. Drums will still be perfectly fine to run. Fast guys will always be fast, slow guys will always be slow.

As far as a new engine goes, only a few people have ANY details or clue about the real story there, but that is a topic for another time. Not even worth talking about here.

[Hardingfv32]

i think this is driven by FV Challenge to be in line with other countries.

As stated earlier the conversion proposal stated in the first post has no connection to the CC development activities. Both proposals are driven by the very high cost and maintenance effort require by the Carbotech brake shoes… that provide a clear performance advantage.

Any discussion of the CC project here is really an effort to demonstrate what is possible… educational.

Nothing short of complete change to Formula First is going to get SCCA FV in line with other countries. In the case of FST… it has stalled at the regional level. There is no way SCCA FV ever progresses into anything like the rest of the world. That ship sailed a couple of decades ago.

Brian

[fv22]

Sorry in advance for the long winded post. I am usually more of a reader than a poster but this subject deserves all sides to be heard.


I've been following this thread since it started and the subject of disc brakes on vees in general for quite awhile. When I first looked at vees way back in the 80's my first thought was how could a race car have drum brakes? The first person I asked about it told me they are so light at just over 1000lbs. with driver that the drums worked great. That was the last time I worried about vee's having drum brakes. When I got my first vee and had someone show me how to properly adjust the brakes I was happy with the stopping power for the speeds we go, especially since we were all generally equal in that regard.

I do not have the money or talent to be a front runner. Battling for positions mid pack is what I do, occasionally at a race the “fast guys” are not there and the same people I normally race at mid pack are suddenly at the front. Will adding disc brakes to my car change this? Absolutely not!

So after following this disc conversion debate it seems I hear the same points over again from disc brake proponents.

1. Drum brakes take lots of maintenance.
2. Drum brakes are archaic, new young drivers won't come in FV due to the drums.
3. In order to stop good we must use Carbotech shoes which are ridiculously expensive.

Lets look at these in that order. I do not spend much time on my brakes at all. I do like to bleed them after each race weekend, would do that for disc's also so that is the same. Of course there is the adjustment requirement, does it take time? Yes but not very much. Does it takes a few minutes more to replace shoes than pads? Yes. is that a deal breaker? Not to me, I doubt to anyone else either.

Ok, I'm sure the top guys do quite a bit more than me to make sure their brake systems are optimized. Do I think if we all had discs the top guys would do more than me to make sure their disc systems are optimized? Absolutely! Do I think I will suddenly outbrake the top national drivers if we both have disc's? NO!

Now to the archaic look of drums. Does anyone really think there are hordes of potential new vee drivers out there who would be filling our fields if only we had disc brakes? Really? Really??? Does anyone think we would LOSE current drivers if they suddenly had to spend (most likely) several thousand dollars to convert the car they have used for years? I for one think that's exactly what would happen. Yes. I've heard the argument that the disc's will be competitive with the drums so you only have to convert if you want to. Sounds kind of like “keep your doctor, keep your plan, save $2,500 a year” to me. That sure did not work out either...

Due to a combination of factors I was unable to make even one race this year, that sucks but what can you do. I plan on racing again next year. If I go to a race and find my competitors all have disc's it will most likely mean I stop racing again until I can spend the money and time it will take to make the conversion. I'm not getting any younger and every year I don't race or race very little is one year of racing I'll never see again. Does anyone think I'm the only person racing vee's that feels this way? How about the guys that are getting older but still want to race? Even if they have the money they may not want to spend it on an upgrade that does not give them a performance advantage. Maybe that becomes the deciding factor to retire the vee and get something they can take to a car show instead?

As you read above I do not feel the first 2 points are valid reasons to convert. That brings us to point 3, Carbotech shoes are ridiculously expensive. I agree with this point 100%. Yes replacing shoes over and over again with carbotechs versus the price of “stock” pads will make up the cost of conversion in not that long of a time. How about those of us who don't use Carbotechs? I can replace stock shoes for the rest of my life and not come close to the price of a disc conversion. Will I be a little faster if I use carbotechs? Possibly. Will I suddenly be running at the front at Majors? NO. Will I still be racing around the same group I currently am with? Most likely yes.
So this brings us to only one valid point. Some vee racers will save money in the long run on brake shoes by a disc conversion. Does anyone not think that someone will eventually make the "ultimate must have" brake pad and it will cost close to the Carbotech shoes? I have another idea for this. How about making the expensive shoes illegal? Get everyone back to cheap shoes and guess what, except for saving money we're all still the same. The fast guys will still be fast, the mid pack guys will still be mid pack and the slow guys will still be slow.

This can be done either by outlawing certain pads, making only certain pads legal or just put a price limit on the pads to be used. Say no more than $50 or $75 as the MSRP. Certainly much easier than making the entire class convert to disc's. If, as has been said over and over again the disc's will not give a performance advantage why make so many people change? To save a little time in race prep? Seems like a massive waste to me.

[FVRacer21]

"Due to a combination of factors I was unable to make even one race this year, that sucks but what can you do. I plan on racing again next year. If I go to a race and find my competitors all have disc's it will most likely mean I stop racing again until I can spend the money and time it will take to make the conversion. I'm not getting any younger and every year I don't race or race very little is one year of racing I'll never see again. Does anyone think I'm the only person racing vee's that feels this way? How about the guys that are getting older but still want to race? Even if they have the money they may not want to spend it on an upgrade that does not give them a performance advantage. Maybe that becomes the deciding factor to retire the vee and get something they can take to a car show instead?"

I totally understand everything you said (and been there many times over almost 40 years), but would like you to consider the following points:

1. You don't say exactly when you started racing but let's say it was 1990. If we had changed to discs in 1989 (over 25 years from the beginning of the class) that's all you would have known

2. Things that you probably have never known:
Fan cooloing
Z bar (non zero roll suspension)
Stock front dampers
non cambered front bushings
Stock valve springs (RPM limit 5800)
Treaded tires

3. Things you have always known
Fire systems
Proper fuel Cells
Forced air cooling
Adjustable mono shocks (zero roll)
Offset front shock mounts
Blueprinted gearboxes
The aforementioned custom brake pad material
Radios and telemetry (although not everyone uses them)
blueprinted manifolds.......
Slick tires (that for a while changed EVERY year)
Full roll hoop for safety
and other things I have forgotten

When these last thinks came out, they all had an effect on the racers.

If done right (a big assumption I admit) and the cars go no faster, then you will still be running with the people you are running with now.

I am sorry if the next bit offends some people - if you are 2 seconds or more off the leader's pace, disc brakes will not make a damn bit of difference and it would be a waste of your time to spend the money to make the change. There is something else holding you back.

Right now Michael Varacins is 1 second faster than the entire field at Indy. I hope that closes by race time, but it is not because he has anything different than everyone else. It is because he has worked harder.

You cannot "buy" a win in FV. You can buy new tires, you can buy a good engine, you can do more test days. But there is nothing you can "buy" that will guarantee you to be faster than everyone else. Guys with new tires and the best engine still finish 5th.

Next year some Spec Racers will have to buy a 15K kit to upgrade their cars. Many FF guys have spent 5 - 10K to convert to a Honda.

People race for different reasons. Formula Vee is the most inexpensive way to get on a race track and race wheel to wheel and be able to fairly compare yourself to other drivers. But it is not free. Here in the NE we treat every driver, from the fastest to the slowest with respect because they made the effort to be there - and that is more than 99.999% of the population.

ChrisZ

[S Lathrop]

After disk brakes, what is going to be next? Is this not just the first step down a slippery slope.

This may will be another step on the ever increasing cost escalation of FV racing.

I like the challenge of doing disk brakes but I wonder if it is really necessary.

[Matt Clark]

This may will be another step on the ever increasing cost escalation of FV racing.

umm... but this is reducing overall costs. just not in 1 year of use.

[S Lathrop]

umm... but this is reducing overall costs. just not in 1 year of use.

My guess is that the cost of a disk brake setup might break even over a few years.

My comment was more for the initial cost of building a car.

I have referenced another project that I was working on. A formula car that new would be in the $30,000 range with FF performance. My model for the class is FV. The cars would share a large percentage of parts. In short one would build a car using a box of parts similar to FV with the VW parts. The difference would be that the parts would be a common design but not single sourced.

After looking at what is possible with this approach, I am skeptical that FV will be better off if we start tweaking the rules. And if by tweaking the rules we cut off some guys from running vintage FV, what have we gained.

I am only questioning what we are doing. I am by no means apposed to going to disk brakes but I would like to have a firm grasp of any potential down side.

[Hardingfv32]

This can be done either by outlawing certain pads...

why make so many people change? To save a little time in race prep? Seems like a massive waste to me.

1) For cars in the 110 mph top speed range… NO street shoes is going to work.. PERIOD. Carbotech and Porterfield are the only shoes that are acceptable at this time. All but the slowest cars at Indy this week require these shoes to last the whole event without changing shoes.

There is no one racing with drum brakes… so their is no one doing brake shoe development. I know in the case of Carbotech a lot development went into the current shoe lining. There is no supplier of high performance brake shoe material for Carbotech to use. They have to come up with their own chemistry.

It is highly unlikely that a spec shoe can be administered by SCCA. Check with the CRB to see if it possible and what hoops you need to jump through.

2) You DO NOT have to convert but unfortunately there is no way to prevent you from thinking that you need to change. If your are not doing the prep to keep the Carbotech's at their best then you will never have an appreciation of why this proposal was made. This is about reduced maintenance and long term cost reduction.. assuming you are using the Carbotechs.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

Formula Vee is the most inexpensive way to get on a race track and race wheel to wheel and be able to fairly compare yourself to other drivers.

This is a myth. There are any number of class in SCCA such as IT that are less expensive. The only way you can justify this myth is with some EBay vintage piece of junk. I am sure I can match you with a similar IT car.

Now if you frame the question relative to cost vs competition entertainment… then the public has clearly voted with SRF and SM.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

After looking at what is possible with this approach, I am skeptical that FV will be better off if we start tweaking the rules. And if by tweaking the rules we cut off some guys from running vintage FV, what have we gained.

I agree with your skepticism after seeing what is available to make a conversion.

I am not concerned about what happens when you wish to race vintage. This conversion really pertains to active modern cars that are not allowed in the more restrictive vintage organization anyway.

I think the effect on FV participation is unknowable with this conversion. Keeping competitors by reducing maintenance vs losing because of perceived requirement to convert. Anyones guess.

Just vote for what you feel is best.

Brian

[FVRacer21]

My guess is that the cost of a disk brake setup might break even over a few years.

My comment was more for the initial cost of building a car.

I have referenced another project that I was working on. A formula car that new would be in the $30,000 range with FF performance. My model for the class is FV. The cars would share a large percentage of parts. In short one would build a car using a box of parts similar to FV with the VW parts. The difference would be that the parts would be a common design but not single sourced.

After looking at what is possible with this approach, I am skeptical that FV will be better off if we start tweaking the rules. And if by tweaking the rules we cut off some guys from running vintage FV, what have we gained.

I am only questioning what we are doing. I am by no means apposed to going to disk brakes but I would like to have a firm grasp of any potential down side.

Steve,

The SCCA could have killed off FF and FV years ago by commissioning an entry level car other than FE. If Honda or Toyota wanted to put some muscle behind a cheap spec car - no wings - fixed transmission ratio's etc, they could build it for less than 20K.

Now Ford tried it in the 80's with the original Formula Ford First - with an Escort engine and tranny - the back of the car was a whale - think of a open wheel Spec Racer Ford. Maybe with current 3 cylinder engines it might be more presentable - the issue is in 10 years electric cars will the available - even in racing, so do you do the work now?

If you are going to sell this idea - the business model has to include financing. What - take out a loan to buy a race car? That is the modern way of buying things - I used a home equity loan to by my Citation or I would never have been able to afford it (that was a while ago).

Chris

[S Lathrop]

Steve,

The SCCA could have killed off FF and FV years ago by commissioning an entry level car other than FE. If Honda or Toyota wanted to put some muscle behind a cheap spec car - no wings - fixed transmission ratio's etc, they could build it for less than 20K.

Now Ford tried it in the 80's with the original Formula Ford First - with an Escort engine and tranny - the back of the car was a whale - think of a open wheel Spec Racer Ford. Maybe with current 3 cylinder engines it might be more presentable - the issue is in 10 years electric cars will the available - even in racing, so do you do the work now?

If you are going to sell this idea - the business model has to include financing. What - take out a loan to buy a race car? That is the modern way of buying things - I used a home equity loan to by my Citation or I would never have been able to afford it (that was a while ago).

Chris

My business model is FV. I designed around a lot of Honda parts. But beyond that, there would be many parts that you can not effectively adapt from a production car. For those parts, a common design would be chosen and drawings made available. The idea would be to have several builders make cars and demonstrate what is possible. My fall back position if the project did not catch on would be to turn my car into a Honda power Formula F.

I canned the project after USAC took over the sanctioning of the FRP series. I am not comfortable with SCCA as a partner. I was very involved in getting FC as a class in SCCA only to see the club poach the business with FM and FE.

And this is way off topic. Sorry about that.

[crypt0zink]

Someone will push the limits of cost, weight and performance of FV discs. Do you keep making new rules to keep up with development?