Advice for someone new and on a budget

[f1racingchampsd11]

Hello, I would like to race formula fords. This is a step that I plan to take to make it to F1 someday. At the moment I have begun racing karts, but I think that I need to move up to a car, because if I continue to put more funds in my kart, while I would be gaining some experience at a less expensive level of racing, I would not be gaining any traction on my career goals. So I would like to race a 1600. The rules on the SCCA pro division say that in order to race in their division, you must either go to an accredited driver school or theirs. I would rather go to theirs I believe with my own car. So I live in South Carolina and I can't spend any more than $2k maybe at a time. So how should I go about finding a car that I can cobble together a piece at a time? Is there somewhere in particular I should look for a car or a roller in that price range? Thank you for reading my post in advance, and any advice anyone can give would be appreciated.

[provamo]

i highly recommend to you that you save your pennies and go to a "pro" school FIRST

THEN learn the BUSINESS of self promotion

IF you are going to run F1 you must first learn how to make other people pay for your racing.

[CGOffroad]

If you haven't read the book 'Drive to Win: Essential Guide to Race Driving' by Carroll Smith, the first chapters of that book will probably be the best $28 you ever spent on Amazon !!

[Daryl DeArman]

What others have said.

In addition, if a pro-racing career is your goal, SCCA shouldn't be on your radar. Stay in karts and move up through that ladder. There's more competition and more exposure for the Nationally competitive racer there. Then pack your bags and get to Europe.

[dc]

Your profile says that you were born in 1991. If that's in fact a correct age, you started in karts about 20 years too late to ever see an F1 paddock. The kids fast-tracked to those seats to be filled in the next 5-10 years are still learning how to not wet the bed at night. Hell, guys your age in F1 today are already retiring and being called "experienced veterans." If you were not born in the 21st Century, your chances of rising to that level of racing are severely handicapped, unless you are a trust fund kid.



Maybe you should re-establish a more realistic racing goal and then go from there.





I don't mean to be snarky (partially true), but there are dozens of threads just like this here in the "Getting Started" forum going back to the early days of ApexSpeed. The questions and answers are usually always the same, and the reality check is generally blunt. There are always exceptions to the rule, but short of being connected to a 3rd world dictator or winning a motorsports reality show (and even those guys are still hoofing for rides all the time), there is no golden ticket.

[provamo]

as others have suggested GO TO EUROPE!

if nothing else pans out at least you did that!

[Matt Clark]

agreeing with the other posts here.
if you are already talking a budget, especially one of only $2k at a time, you're already out of the game. pick something you can go race & have fun in on the weekends.
sounds harsh, but welcome to racing.

[Jtovo]

e if I continue to put more funds in my kart, while I would be gaining some experience at a less expensive level of racing,

Don't buy a real car and expect to spend less money than karting. If you want your kids to go to F1, better be ready to spend $100k per year on a budget for a bunch of years...

I would just read through Apex a bit to get a better glimpse of reality. With the racing season over for most of us, this thread could get out of hand pretty quickly!

[Brian]

I feel sad when I read these posts, and the replies. Even in the 1980's, when I built a Cooper S vintage car and raced it, $2K chunks didn't go very far. Now, $2K chunks don't buy a weekend in a rental car, and barely buy a set of tires. Advice to the OP is the same as everyone else's - don't spend your own money, spend other peoples money or the family fortune's money. Stroll's pop is apparently going to spend $20M getting the kid a super-license, and then $35M for a seat in a Williams F1 car. At that, the kid has to actually be able to drive, which apparently he can.

My serious advice - if you can't write a check for a race car from petty cash, you can't afford to race a car. You can't pay for racing on the never-never, and getting the car is actually almost the cheapest part of the deal. Once you get the car the never ending flow of cash starts and never stops. If you like karts, go karting. Save up and take a driver's school every year or two. Buy a big screen TV and a HD feed and watch F1 from the comfort of your own garage.

[provamo]

actually you CAN go to a pro three day school and get qualified for competition for under two thousand dollars

it only took me half of a decade of trolling the offerings of a popular US school though

[captain_pants]

Another option: Find/make a great career and work your butt off. If you're really good (the best of the best), you'll have some play money for weekends pretty soon. If you're pretty good, you'll have play money in a decade or two. If you're a clock-puncher, you'll have a small amount of money when you retire.

F1 is nice and all, but as these guys allude to, you're very far behind the 8-ball. Those guys got where they are with rich parents, eager sponsors, and immense amounts of drive to win at everything they've ever done.

I know one local driver who's living his dream of chasing a semi-pro race series. It's actually pretty demoralizing hearing him talk - every single conversation is a sales pitch to try to get people to give money to the 'cause' of proving how awesome he is. I'm glad he's living the dream, but I quickly realized that's not a path I want to go down.

[Offcamber1]

I regret the dollars I've wasted on alcohol, women, cars, motorcycles, houses, college, and the list goes on and on. I've never regretted spending any of the money I've spent on racing, despite the fact that I've yet to win WDC, Indy, Lemans, or even an SCCA Regional.

There's a Dulon Mk21 slider in Central Ohio for $2500.00. Keep racing karts, buy a clapped out FF in need of rebuilding, and go chase your dream. You might not end up in F1, but if your experience is like mine, you'll have tons of fun, meet some of the nicest people in the world, and when you're an over-the-hill wonk like me, at least you'll have some nice memories.

Screw it; go racing!

YMMV

Kip

[EYERACE]

What can eye say?

............that I know an older dude, a formula car Club Racer who brought up his kid to go racing open wheel......Dad's fast mind you.....but the kid was gooood! Dad put his driving on the back burner and burned through tons of bucks to put the kid into higher and higher series of racing and quickly went from Club ranks to the Pro ranks.....and the kid kept winning. The kid climbs all the way up to qualify for the Capital I.....you know......I.......as in Indy. So Dad tells me the other day that when they started looking a price tags in the ball park of one million a year to run at the Indy level........it was too much.

So Dad's back Club racing, fast yet too.......and the kid's working not racing.

Advice:
1. learn to travel 'cuz you'll need to - you'll never become an accomplished racer at home
2. buy an FF bare frame or roller maybe and build the car up over the space of a year or so.....in the mean time, and during the build, go to any event that has an open wheel grid.....be it Vintage or SCCA or whatever......and hang out all weekend with the people and the cars / ask questions / watch and learn. Get a catalogue from Pegasus Racing and study every page, all the while remembering you don't need to buy one of everything - just understand every item - what it does and what one truly needs - you'll compare that with what you see used at the track...........and also find someone in your area that has an open wheel car and ask if you can crew for them every chance that comes along. If you're a good businessman and racer you'll be in a newer and faster class car virtually every season.
3. you don't need anything with wings for many years for what level you're at.
4. nice you've got a dream..........F1............but learn what reality is and unless you've already been beating all your competition by a wide margin realize that means something that's not F1.
5. to quote Roger Penske..........and if you don't know who Roger Penske is, go back and read #4 again..........anyway............to quote Roger Penske, "The way you end up with a big pile of money in racing, is to start with an even bigger pile of money." It's not about cubic inches.....it's about cubic dollars. I'm watching the CFRSCCA FC points for the year and the girl who will probably win 1st in points has probably spent about $50,000 in the process...and the world will take little notice of her effort........but she'll still be grinning when she thinks of it years from now.
6. Race...........wheel to wheel..........open wheel...........
7. because there's nothing else like it in the world
8. but maybe motorcycles?

Go read the thread: Lucky Sp*rm Club

[f1racingchampsd11]

I have read over all of the posts. I understand that racing takes a lot of money. Honestly I don't have anything to loose, so I'm just going to try and go for it. Also I do know reality is it is unrealistic that I make it to F1, but that's my goal and I'm going to try and go for it, because its what I want. The reason that I began 20 years too late, is because my parents weren't willing to help me go racing. It is possible to do this I think. I just want to know the best route. So I've been researching, and I do know the odds are slim, but I figured if I can cobble together an FF quickly, and do well, which I understand that there will be a learning curve, but I have no doubt that I'm fast and can be fastest. James Hunt started a little bit old as well. If he can do it, so can I, because he had less of an idea of what he was doing when he first started, than I do. He had very little money as well. I know that I can promote myself and give myself a good shot at achieving my dream as long as I just go for it! My plan was do well in Formula Fords here, then apply for an FIA class b license, and then see if I can get a GP3 drive. I don't care if its a piece of junk as long as its not warped or bent up bad I can make it work. I've already learned this in karts, because I have a very old one, and its a dirt racing chassis, but I race it on sprint road courses and still make it work. If anyone has any more advice on how to proceed to FF to GP3, then please hit me up. It may be better for me to save up a little more, I've noticed you can find one running for $6,000. Thanks for the feedback. Skip Barber might not be a bad idea.

[Matt Clark]

I understand that racing takes a lot of money. Honestly I don't have anything to loose, so I'm just going to try and go for it.

Your drive & determination is admirable & a good thing, and I do not want to downplay that, but believe it or not, you DO have something to lose. A comfortable & enjoyable life. You'll spend everything you work for on the car, still won't be in anything beyond FC & won't have anything to show for it when you're older. Just advice from someone who is not far beyond your position.

Race for fun, and live a decent life. If you spend every penny you have on racing, you won't have a very good time at either.

[Spengo]

You can win races on a sprint track with an old dirt chassis? That doesn't speak too well of the competition...

If you are serious about getting to F1 I'd spend the money doing some serious kart racing over in Europe. Even that's going to be one hell of a racing budget though just so you know. Maybe with skill you could attract enough sponsor money to fund some professional jr. open wheel racing. Those cars are nearly six figure formula fords mind you, not $6k vintage cars. Club racing in a cheap car is a bundle of fun but it doesn't lead anywhere.

[Bongo]

This may sound a little weird, but if you really are as fast as you think you are, buy a sim rig and start working up the ranks in iRacing. You will face competition much more fierce and talented than you will find at the club level, especially as you move up the ladder.

Sim racing as a feeder series to real life is in it's infancy, but it is happening and will only be more commonplace as the sport matures.

In the mean time, you will be able to lean on it to learn, a LOT. You'll learn car control, race craft and tuning/setup, and meet a bunch of really great people in the community. More than anything, you'll learn where you slot in talent-wise.

I'd still pursue RL racing as well, of course, but the amount of experience for the buck you can get in sim is invaluable.

[provamo]

This may sound a little weird, but if you really are as fast as you think you are, buy a sim rig and start working up the ranks in iRacing. You will face competition much more fierce and talented than you will find at the club level, especially as you move up the ladder.

Sim racing as a feeder series to real life is in it's infancy, but it is happening and will only be more commonplace as the sport matures.

In the mean time, you will be able to lean on it to learn, a LOT. You'll learn car control, race craft and tuning/setup, and meet a bunch of really great people in the community. More than anything, you'll learn where you slot in talent-wise.

I'd still pursue RL racing as well, of course, but the amount of experience for the buck you can get in sim is invaluable.

GAG ME! lol

[NPalacioM3]

I have read over all of the posts. I understand that racing takes a lot of money. Honestly I don't have anything to loose, so I'm just going to try and go for it. Also I do know reality is it is unrealistic that I make it to F1, but that's my goal and I'm going to try and go for it, because its what I want. The reason that I began 20 years too late, is because my parents weren't willing to help me go racing. It is possible to do this I think. I just want to know the best route. So I've been researching, and I do know the odds are slim, but I figured if I can cobble together an FF quickly, and do well, which I understand that there will be a learning curve, but I have no doubt that I'm fast and can be fastest. James Hunt started a little bit old as well. If he can do it, so can I, because he had less of an idea of what he was doing when he first started, than I do. He had very little money as well. I know that I can promote myself and give myself a good shot at achieving my dream as long as I just go for it! My plan was do well in Formula Fords here, then apply for an FIA class b license, and then see if I can get a GP3 drive. I don't care if its a piece of junk as long as its not warped or bent up bad I can make it work. I've already learned this in karts, because I have a very old one, and its a dirt racing chassis, but I race it on sprint road courses and still make it work. If anyone has any more advice on how to proceed to FF to GP3, then please hit me up. It may be better for me to save up a little more, I've noticed you can find one running for $6,000. Thanks for the feedback. Skip Barber might not be a bad idea.

I admire your drive and commitment, it is truly impressive and as stated by someone else, a good thing! But, I strongly suggest you go back and read some of the posts made here by others that I think you aren't letting sink in. You are looking to buy a 6K car and think you will go beat kids in nearly 100K FF's at the pro level? Who are likely spending 10K+/weekend? I hate to break it to you but that's just not gonna happen, these kids in FF's are damn good and have the money as well, really hard to beat that and especially in significantly inferior equipment. Its the proverbial knife to a gun fight. Things are not the same now as they were when Hunt was coming up, its a different game now and money talks, not talent. You need BOTH.

Focus on your career. Go make some money and come play like the rest of us, we need you in the paddock and on the race track.

[SEComposites]

I still think Ill make to F1 !!
I spent almost every penny I had when I was younger including student loans to go racing. If I knew what I know now I'd still do it all again! I'd stay in karts if I were you. You'd be better off with a $6k kart than a $6k Formula Ford at this stage.

[S Lathrop]

I still think Ill make to F1 !!
I spent almost every penny I had when I was younger including student loans to go racing. If I knew what I know now I'd still do it all again! I'd stay in karts if I were you. You'd be better off with a $6k kart than a $6k Formula Ford at this stage.

I will say it a little different but it is advise I have give often: Race what you can afford to win with. You learn way more winning a race than racing a car you can not afford.

[Pi_guy]

As a number of people have made several good and important points. It is your call enthusiasm is nice but it often blinds you from the reality.
Racing is not like it was, counting the number of formula car series in the 70's to what is available now is a what happened. Back in the 70's you had people building cars another accounting question how many are being produced now?
2 grands gets you a good data system not a great one and when you add sensors it goes up.
So come and race aim for the series or group that gets you on the track, it better than aiming for something that you will never get and burn you up in the process.
Go to the skippy series talk to other racers and compare their purse strings with yours, volunteer at SCCA events meet drivers learn & establish relationships.

come and have fun

[Kazis31]

Clint Eastwood once said :
Smart man knows his limitations......

And he has lived a bit to back it up....

[Ralph Z.]

Please, have a backup plan just in case the racing doesn't put food on the table. Think of another career choice in the event that racing somehow just doesn't work out as you wish. There is somewhat of a chance you'll need to earn a living doing something else.

College? Trades? Maybe something tied to the racing industry? Who knows?

Being resilient is the key to success in nearly every career.

All the best to you going forward.

[f1racingchampsd11]

I will say it a little different but it is advise I have give often: Race what you can afford to win with. You learn way more winning a race than racing a car you can not afford.

I appreciate this input.

[f1racingchampsd11]

I again appreciate everyone's feedback. Some of it was feedback that I would expect to hear, and others had more interesting things to say. There is one or two of you I would like to get back to personally, but a few of the options that some of presented I have thought about, but you didn't know that, so thanks for putting out what you thought anyway. Again I appreciate all of the feedback.

[f1racingchampsd11]

You can win races on a sprint track with an old dirt chassis? That doesn't speak too well of the competition...

If you are serious about getting to F1 I'd spend the money doing some serious kart racing over in Europe. Even that's going to be one hell of a racing budget though just so you know. Maybe with skill you could attract enough sponsor money to fund some professional jr. open wheel racing. Those cars are nearly six figure formula fords mind you, not $6k vintage cars. Club racing in a cheap car is a bundle of fun but it doesn't lead anywhere.

Well about that track its mostly left turns with the exception of one right in an esses section.

[f1racingchampsd11]

Your drive & determination is admirable & a good thing, and I do not want to downplay that, but believe it or not, you DO have something to lose. A comfortable & enjoyable life. You'll spend everything you work for on the car, still won't be in anything beyond FC & won't have anything to show for it when you're older. Just advice from someone who is not far beyond your position.

Race for fun, and live a decent life. If you spend every penny you have on racing, you won't have a very good time at either.

And you know what I said there might would put some people off, but I've felt out any direction you can think of. I'm not interested in getting married someday or something like that, dating someone of course, but I don't believe I'm a normal life kind of person. And one of the things you guys have brought up is financial savy. If I know my limitations within my finances, it may take me a bit longer than others, I may race on a tighter budget than others, but I believe I've proven with the kart that I have more in me, and since mine is a really old offset frame, and my father and I who put the kart together and he's a ASE certified technician, but the kart is a much different animal than a car, I believe we did a pretty good job. I mean the frame is at least 13 years old. There are people at the track that spend several thousands of dollars a race. There have been people to race here from all over the world. Any type of motor racing vehicle just about has been raced at this track before. And I'm in an old kart, put together by my father and I who I guess are a couple of rule breakers and I'm the driver idiot who wants to move up and make it to F1 of all places, and I'm not that far off the track record, considering I've only been on it and the kart 2 times. Each time you go race, you absorb new information. and I let my talents speak for themself and others pat me on the back if they think I've done well.

[HayesCages]

You've raced 2 times, or raced your current kart 2 times?

[Matt Clark]

Fair enough.

And I know you said you want to race FF right away, but I would suggest FV for the first year or 2. you will learn a lot more about race craft on your budget. There is the old saying that if you can win in FV, then you can win in anything. Todays Runoff race at 1145am EST will show you a lot.

[BURKY]

Well about that track its mostly left turns with the exception of one right in an esses section.

Are you referring to Barnesville/Lamar?

[R. Pare]

And one of the things you guys have brought up is financial savy. If I know my limitations within my finances, it may take me a bit longer than others, I may race on a tighter budget than others,

Let me put it to you extremely bluntly:

Unless you have 50 million or so of readily disposable dollars, forget getting to F1.

Unless you started racing at the age of 5 with that sort of readily disposable money, you can forget getting to F1.

If you have maybe $10K of disposable money, you can go Vee racing for maybe a half a season - assuming that you already have a tow vehicle and trailer, and buy an old car.

If you DON"T have at least $10K of disposable money every year after your purchase, you can get at least partial seasons of racing - assuming that you have no crash damage.

[swiftdrivr]

If you like, come to the SIC at Roebling. You can meet a few FF drivers there.

[rickb99]

L....Unless you have 50 million or so of readily disposable dollars, forget getting to F1......

That will get you a ride for one season (maybe).

Rumor has it Maldonado had as much as $40 Million a year behind him for Venezuela oil. Grossjean paid Lotus $5 Million for one season funded by French oil company. Bruno Senna brings $18 Million from various Brazilian companys to the teams he races for.

Of course you have to remember, an F1 team spends $300 Million or more per season of racing so, $5 Million from a driver for the seat really isn't that much so, he better be able to bring in championship points even if he's paying for the seat. Thus, the demise of Maldonado.

AND to top that off, despite the MASSIVE amount of money in the prize fund at the end of the year, The net result is, the winning and leading teams get a massive pay out but it really only amounts to about 2/3rds of its total cost. Thus the need for serious sponsorship even for teams like Mercedes and Ferrari.

Which also means who knows how long HAAS can hang on when close to $100 Million will be coming out of his pocket (hes self sponsoring the team) despite the fact that he has a small share of the 2016 (earned) fund?

[Jtovo]

"I would just read through Apex a bit to get a better glimpse of reality. With the racing season over for most of us, this thread could get out of hand pretty quickly!"

Man. Did I call this one!

Take a look at the link below. This is a good price for a competitive club ford. This would be a great and fast car. And pretty much whoever drove this could not be within a few seconds of a pro car AT BEST.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75358

[Agitator]

Take a look at the link below. This is a good price for a competitive club ford. This would be a great and fast car. And pretty much whoever drove this could not be within a few seconds of a pro car AT BEST.

^^^ This is the thing that I'm not sure has been mentioned. Unfortunately, the days of competing (and winning) on talent alone are gone. Somewhere about 25 years ago, you could still hope to get by with a limited budget and/or a dated car and still have a chance of doing well if you were a superior shoe...not now.

To get noticed in F1600 you're gonna have to win, and win often. That means competing in the pro series. And I don't know anyone winning in that series that doesn't have an engineer (or someone with years of experience on their resume) setting up their car...and all the talent in the world isn't gonna make up for that. Ayrton Senna wouldn't win a FF race today if he didn't have someone with some serious understanding of the car helping him.

So...I'd pick up your phone and call anyone you know with some personal $$ or some sponsorship needs, and start in with a sales pitch. Tell them your dreams. Ask for the moon, and accept anything they'll throw your way. And then DELIVER. Pimp their product, whether you're winning or not. Just give them return on investment.

I'm not here to rain on your parade. I admire the enthusiasm, and I wish anyone well that wants to go as far as their talent will take them. I just don't see anyway around the money issue; You're gonna need it, and as much of it as you can beg, borrow or steal. Rock on, brother. Best of luck. Let us know how it's progressing.

[provamo]

So...I'd pick up your phone and call anyone you know with some personal $$ or some sponsorship needs, and start in with a sales pitch. Tell them your dreams. Ask for the moon, and accept anything they'll throw your way. And then DELIVER. Pimp their product, whether you're winning or not. Just give them return on investment.

[Spengo]

Probably the best course of action right now is to buy a nicer go kart and compete on a higher level. $6k is enough for a used 2-stroke go kart capable of winning a championship or a brand new 4-stroke. A budget of about the same per year is also enough to travel around the country a bit and win a regional championship. Pick a class that has massive participation to ensure you battle against the toughest competition. Get lots of experience, figure out where you stand against people with national championships under their belt, get the how tos of racing in general all ironed out. If you want to go pro this is a necessary experience and even if you end up just racing for fun this will still be an incredibly valuable experience.

While you can buy a running formula ford for $6k it will be a real hoopty that likely isn't competitive even in CF class without a lot of work put into it. You're going to want to strip a car like that down and replace a lot of hardware to begin with just to make it safe to race. Also, since the cost to race a car is higher, you're not going to be able to race as often. Seat time is paramount when you're just starting out.

[billtebbutt]

A couple of observations:


"Fast" alone doesn't get anyone to the show anymore. There are far more fast amateur drivers out there with the skill to (conceptually) be a pro than there are budgets to make them pros. If you don't have the pro budget at this point in your life, it isn't likely to happen for you. But your racing life isn't over - it is just starting!

I can only afford to race what I can afford to roll up into a ball. Otherwise, it will all end in tears, and my racing "life" will end prematurely. And I would miss out on a wonderful sport, great friends, and the opportunity to create a lifetime of amazing experiences and memories. Based upon your posts, you don't yet have the cash/income to go racing formula cars.

If I were you, I would keep karting. And I would find a local FF competitor looking for a super keen free track helper. And I would spend every weekend at the track that I could with him/her. When you get your first FF in a year or two thereafter, what you will have learned about prep and racing will make you far more reliable and faster than you would have been on your own.

Assuming you won't be an arrive and drive guy, you need to save for tools, equipment, spares, a trailer of sorts, maybe a better tow vehicle (double as your daily driver?), etc. Even to run regionals with an old FF, you will need a substantial investment in these things in ADDITION to the car. And a place to store all of this stuff......

You probably don't want to read all of the preceding posts, but the posters are offering you solid advice.

Just my two cents. Good luck!

cheers,
BT

[f1racingchampsd11]

You've raced 2 times, or raced your current kart 2 times?

Both. Actually practiced once, and then raced once.