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Thread: LMP1 car

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlandon View Post
    Quote: Could you tell me please, more or less, the average budget of a middle class racer!?

    Answer: Way more than it should be! And way out of reach for the "average" person.

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    The median and the mode are both probably somewhere around $1500/weekend, including entry fees, travel, amoritized engine rebuilds, everything.

    I'd guess that maybe 25% are spending significantly more, and 25% significantly less.

    In my opinion, the initial purchase price of the car is where there is a much larger spread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman View Post
    The median and the mode are both probably somewhere around $1500/weekend, including entry fees, travel, amoritized engine rebuilds, everything.

    I'd guess that maybe 25% are spending significantly more, and 25% significantly less.

    In my opinion, the initial purchase price of the car is where there is a much larger spread.
    Thank you very much Daryl DeArman!! just one more question, what's significantly more/less for you!?

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    Getting by on less than $1000/event is significantly less. Folks are doing it, but it's used tires, live close to the tracks, do their own engines or go a long time between overhauls.

    Significantly more to me would be guys/gals spending $4K+ a weekend.

    I have absolutely no statistical data to back up my guesstimates...so value them accordingly. For every club racer spending $50K a year to race, once they have the car and all support equipment, there's somebodyelse doing that same season for $5K. Most everyone else is probably in the $10K range...some just have a more active season than others.

    Some motorsports marketing folks must have some statistical data...

    maybe contact somebody at the SCCA in their marketing department.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman View Post
    Getting by on less than $1000/event is significantly less. Folks are doing it, but it's used tires, live close to the tracks, do their own engines or go a long time between overhauls.

    Significantly more to me would be guys/gals spending $4K+ a weekend.

    I have absolutely no statistical data to back up my guesstimates...so value them accordingly. For every club racer spending $50K a year to race, once they have the car and all support equipment, there's somebodyelse doing that same season for $5K. Most everyone else is probably in the $10K range...some just have a more active season than others.

    Some motorsports marketing folks must have some statistical data...

    maybe contact somebody at the SCCA in their marketing department.
    Once again, thank you very much. Base on your number we've done our initial estimation and this is the results:
    - 20 hours race season -> approx. $6,300-7,000
    *Considering recommended life expectancy of components under racing conditions.
    *Amortized engine rebuild, trammy, chassis, suspension...
    *Consumables not included: tires, gas, oil, air filters, brake pads and discs.
    *Accidents/car breakdown not included.

    We still off target considering that consumables, entry fees, travel and similar expenses are not included.
    On the other hand, endurance races (3-4 hours events) usually required more than one driver...
    We're in the boarder line, reducing cost without affecting performance it's gonna be really hard or impossible.

    what do you think about this initial estimation!?

    P.S: estimation, that's it!! we're just guessing base on our experience. That means that this is no the real cost! we won't have that one until having a real model running!

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    Classifieds Super License racerdad2's Avatar
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    Build it & they will come
    "An analog man living in a digital world"

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    Quote Originally Posted by racerdad2 View Post
    Build it & they will come
    it's not that easy racerdad2, it doesn't depend just on me. I have to justify my decisions and prove somehow that we could at least recover the initial investment. I know, you can never be 100% sure of that, but...the problem is that right now we are off target (base on Daryl DeArman numbers) and that reduces the number of possible clients significantly.

    by the way, how many hours has a regular season for you guys!??

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    I'm just starting in FC. The 'frog' keeps precise records. His average cost per race weekend was about $1500.00 I'm budgeting $2k. Most weekends are around two hours of track time x's 6 weekends - 12 hours

    I'm hoping for more track days next seadon. Add 5 days x's 1.5 hours.

    My son & I race karts & prepping & racing 4 karts kept me way to busy to devote time to the Reynard. Transition to FC next season

    Murphy's Law has always applied to our kart racing. I fully expect the same in FC

    BTW... I was encouraging you to built it a bit tongue in cheek Best Wishes !!!
    "An analog man living in a digital world"

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    Quote Originally Posted by racerdad2 View Post
    I'm just starting in FC. The 'frog' keeps precise records. His average cost per race weekend was about $1500.00 I'm budgeting $2k. Most weekends are around two hours of track time x's 6 weekends - 12 hours

    I'm hoping for more track days next seadon. Add 5 days x's 1.5 hours.

    My son & I race karts & prepping & racing 4 karts kept me way to busy to devote time to the Reynard. Transition to FC next season

    Murphy's Law has always applied to our kart racing. I fully expect the same in FC

    BTW... I was encouraging you to built it a bit tongue in cheek Best Wishes !!!
    Off the top of my head, I can't think a better way of spending time with your son Mastering the art of karting is really difficult!

    Wooow!! interesting budget!! that means you're in my target market!! have you ever thought...!?hahaha just joking!!

    racerdad2 my problems is that I wanna make this project work so badly...I think it has a lot of possibilities! sometimes is so frustrating that it doesn't depend just on me...

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    I guess what I've been trying to say is... pursue your dream. No one else will at the end of our days, it's not what we've done that causes regret, it's the things we did not do...
    "An analog man living in a digital world"

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by racerdad2 View Post
    I'm just starting in FC. The 'frog' keeps precise records. His average cost per race weekend was about $1500.00 I'm budgeting $2k. Most weekends are around two hours of track time x's 6 weekends - 12 hours

    I'm hoping for more track days next seadon. Add 5 days x's 1.5 hours.

    My son & I race karts & prepping & racing 4 karts kept me way to busy to devote time to the Reynard. Transition to FC next season

    Murphy's Law has always applied to our kart racing. I fully expect the same in FC

    BTW... I was encouraging you to built it a bit tongue in cheek Best Wishes !!!
    Formula Ford/Kent SCCA Majors and a few Regionals
    $2,000 per weekend is almost impossible realistically. If you live next to the track (like you lucky guys in CENDIV) it is still not remotely possible.

    Engine is $800 per weekend. Let's say I run 10 weekends which might be 18 races. That's one engine at say $8k.

    Tires are $1,200 per weekend or more. This is Friday testing (old tires), Saturday practice (old tires), Q1 and two races.

    There's $2k.

    Add entry $500. Test day fees $150. Fuel. My average weekend with paid for towing and race prep was about $5,500 per. We have half of our races 1,000 miles or more (Denver). Half under 200 miles. The cap costs for car and equipment are not included but should be. No parts costs for replacement or breakage are included. My amortized parts costs were $400 per weekend with one crash and no major offs.

    Many 'gentlemen racers' approach $7.5 to $10k per weekend (a few hundred per year in SCCA a few hundred more in vintage). I raced from 88-92 and did every single piece of service myself (and my wife-eat your heart's out...) and we averaged $2.5k per weekend then-- to run Regionals primarily.

    The field of prospects may be small but let's not delude ourselves as to how much money it costs. Jump on in, the water's fine. Cheaper than crack and your wife knows where you are.

    Bob Melvin

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    Reality Check that's exactly why I refuse to keep track of racing expeditures Our kart weekends easily run over $1k & that's staying at the home track. That's why I only keep track of our $25.00 / gallon race gas.... everything else is 'free' if I don't keep the receipts ; )
    "An analog man living in a digital world"

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    Quote Originally Posted by racerdad2 View Post
    I guess what I've been trying to say is... pursue your dream. No one else will at the end of our days, it's not what we've done that causes regret, it's the things we did not do...
    yes, you're right. Unfortunately I'm just an employee, I don't have economical resources to undertake such a project (I wish...). So I depend on my boss.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobmelvin View Post
    Formula Ford/Kent SCCA Majors and a few Regionals
    $2,000 per weekend is almost impossible realistically. If you live next to the track (like you lucky guys in CENDIV) it is still not remotely possible.

    Engine is $800 per weekend. Let's say I run 10 weekends which might be 18 races. That's one engine at say $8k.

    Tires are $1,200 per weekend or more. This is Friday testing (old tires), Saturday practice (old tires), Q1 and two races.

    There's $2k.

    Add entry $500. Test day fees $150. Fuel. My average weekend with paid for towing and race prep was about $5,500 per. We have half of our races 1,000 miles or more (Denver). Half under 200 miles. The cap costs for car and equipment are not included but should be. No parts costs for replacement or breakage are included. My amortized parts costs were $400 per weekend with one crash and no major offs.

    Many 'gentlemen racers' approach $7.5 to $10k per weekend (a few hundred per year in SCCA a few hundred more in vintage). I raced from 88-92 and did every single piece of service myself (and my wife-eat your heart's out...) and we averaged $2.5k per weekend then-- to run Regionals primarily.

    The field of prospects may be small but let's not delude ourselves as to how much money it costs. Jump on in, the water's fine. Cheaper than crack and your wife knows where you are.

    Bob Melvin
    Thank you Bob Melvin. Your information is really interesting and useful for me!
    Last edited by peat; 11.08.13 at 1:10 AM.

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    ^ Can you show a very rough pic of what you're thinking of building for those $81k?
    The Radical RXC is sort of what I think you are trying to build unless I'm wrong. That car is 200K and it's not pretty.

    Here in the states, the nicest "prototype" for amateurs is Stohr DSR. You can buy the car for 40K, and it's the closest thing to an LMP2 Courage/Oreca/Acura. Still, in my rich NorthEast region there is rarely one running in a REGIONAL race, but there are 20-40 Spec Racer Fords, or 50 Miatas (even I have one) sliding around in every event. Why do you think that is?

    Figure out the proper answer to what I wrote above and you'll be very successful in what works and what does not in motorsports. It's that simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by awegrzyn View Post
    ^ Can you show a very rough pic of what you're thinking of building for those $81k?
    The Radical RXC is sort of what I think you are trying to build unless I'm wrong. That car is 200K and it's not pretty.

    Here in the states, the nicest "prototype" for amateurs is Stohr DSR. You can buy the car for 40K, and it's the closest thing to an LMP2 Courage/Oreca/Acura. Still, in my rich NorthEast region there is rarely one running in a REGIONAL race, but there are 20-40 Spec Racer Fords, or 50 Miatas (even I have one) sliding around in every event. Why do you think that is?

    Figure out the proper answer to what I wrote above and you'll be very successful in what works and what does not in motorsports. It's that simple.
    the motorsport equation is pretty easy (at least the most of the time): the more money you spend, the faster you go. The target price was set between $54,000-$67,500 but there's no limits when it comes to price. $81,000 is for something "big"(considering we're in the low/middle end of motorsport), $54,000 is a quiet good balance between performance/price (quiet difficult to find something faster at a lower price brand new).
    *The Stohr is a really good option. The ratio price quality is really good.

    Motorsport is not just about purchased price but running cost. It's relatively easy to buy a good car, but not so easy to run it. The models you mentioned are low cost (purchase price and running cost), that's why those model are so popular. You just need gas and tires basically.

    I can't show you any pic yet, but you're right. What I'm trying to build is a cheaper/good looking version of a Radical RXC.

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    I'm suddenly reminded of the ridiculous Formula Indy guy. "I can build an F1000 for $10k" "Why are you guys coming down on me". lol

    peat, not comparing you to him, just the marked contrast in the way you have asked for advice and are listening to our comments and criticisms vs the way this other guy took anything negative as a personal insult. Actually negative is too strong, really all comments to him (and you) were meant to be realistic, not positive or negative.

    I look forward to hearing more about your car. I'd skip the canopy. At these speeds it adds nothing. Except cost.

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    SCCA FF engine and tire costs are out of whack in the cost : performance ratio.

    There's a reason FF represents 4% of the SCCA National Participation numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mousecatcher View Post
    I'm suddenly reminded of the ridiculous Formula Indy guy. "I can build an F1000 for $10k" "Why are you guys coming down on me". lol

    peat, not comparing you to him, just the marked contrast in the way you have asked for advice and are listening to our comments and criticisms vs the way this other guy took anything negative as a personal insult. Actually negative is too strong, really all comments to him (and you) were meant to be realistic, not positive or negative.

    I look forward to hearing more about your car. I'd skip the canopy. At these speeds it adds nothing. Except cost.
    well...we already have a quiet similar car to the one I'm talking about. So..this one pretends to be a new version (an evolution if you want) following the same set of rules. We have been working in the European market, but the company owner wants to expand business and I thought of you.
    In order to keep costs down, the idea is having the same base model for EU-USA and just add some upgrades to the american version: mainly engine, wheels and fuel tank (regulations here are more restrictive). That's why we're going for a canopy (mandatory over here). We could just import our car without upgrades but we won't be as competitive as we want to be.

    Having your opinion guys is key for us. Unfortunately this is the only way I can interact with you all (competitors) and have your view points and opinions. We are even considering new possibilities after talking with some of you guys. We didn't know that our model could even be consider road legal. That's a new option that makes the market even bigger, but it's not our priority right now.
    So, if we think that there's a market we'll go ahead and design and build our new model. If not, we'll keep our current model for a couple of years more.

    One more time, I would like to say thank you to you all for your help and support. Words can't express my gratitude, you all have been very helpful and polite to me! Thanks!

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    Not an aerodynamicist Wren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobmelvin View Post
    Tires are $1,200 per weekend or more. This is Friday testing (old tires), Saturday practice (old tires), Q1 and two races.
    Is a set of FF tires really $1200?

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    Default Budgets and car building.

    If you are running a bike engined P1 or P2, you should look at about 6 hours on an engine...rebuilds are about $5k. Expensive yes. Most engines let go before they wear out. I have 5 pre-built engines "in stock" right now for two sports racers. This will be enough to get them both through a season. That is $25,000 for two cars for a season of engine.

    Costs per weekend per car (away races)
    Truck fuel $500
    Hotels: $500 (two rooms, three days)
    Race entry $350
    Test day $150
    Race fuel $100
    Tires (one set) $750
    Oil/sundries $100
    Wear items (brake pads, etc) $300
    Food for team (3 people $30 per day) $270

    So, easily, I can spend over $3,000 to race away from my "home track". Every race in SCCA is an "away race" for me.

    Add the cost of additional expenses such as insurance for the trailer and truck, replacing trailer tires (common occurance), toll fees (for you poor sods in Wisconsin and Illinois ), excluding crash damage, bent rod ends, etc you should add another $3,000 for a season.

    It is an open checkbook for crash damage


    I just got back from COTA where we ran SVRA Nationals...the total bill for two cars (expenses ONLY) is over $9,000.

    In terms of marketing new cars, you need to understand what/who you are competing against. You can buy used Stohrs with good equipment and current mods for around $30K to $40K. Proven race winners, with readily available spares, multiple prep shops with experience setting up this make/model and multiple manufacturers making/selling spares and modifications.

    It will be a challenge to sell more than a few cars into this market. You can pick up a good used M20F for around the $55 to $60 mark with fresh,. solid, proven Honda power and a set of spares. Again a tough sell to market an unknown car with unproven capability, and perhaps not supported in North America.

    One way to market a chassis is to have options on engines/drivetrain. Perhaps a lower-powered car (less expensive) would allow you to lower the entry price, then you could sell an upgrade kit to greater power...or sell the car with a stock engine, then the customer could upgrade to a modified one later. (like K20).

    Also, please be sure that the applicable safety requirements for closed coupe top cars can be met by your design. I know of at least one sanctioning body that are having trouble accepting coupe top single seaters.

    Another thought. If you car meets (and is certified) to CN rules you should have no problem with homologation over here

    I am not sure what your break-even point is in your business plan; I don't think that you could sell more than a half a dozen cars a year over here in the present economy and regulatory climate. I don't think there are very many "brand new" race cars showing up to either SCCA or NASA race events each year; look at FF or FC....these are still well-subscribed classes yet there are no new manufacturers currently in production (I may be wrong ...is Radon building new cars?).

    I firmly believe that building race cars is not a good way to make a living. A good way to spend time and spend money though

    Best wishes

    Tom
    Last edited by brownslane; 11.08.13 at 3:55 PM. Reason: I can't spell or type!
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    Was it the AeroMaster's car that got you guys going? Looks impressive and it seems cheap, but I'm not sure if this would ever work.


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    Quote Originally Posted by peat View Post
    We didn't know that our model could even be consider road legal.
    Not in the US, not as a complete car. If you sell it as parts (roller + engine) and the owner assembles it, then it would be a kit car and as long as it meets some basic requirements (turn signals and such) then it would be legal on a state-by-state basis, ie different states will have different rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    Is a set of FF tires really $1200?
    Mounted and balanced $1,160 in Denver. Am I paying too much for Hoosiers R35s?

    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    Is a set of FF tires really $1200?
    No, but factoring in shipping, taxes, mounting, flipping, disposal, etc .... planning on $1200 net tire cost for a 3 day weekend would not be unrealistic. Double that if you are running short rears in a competitive event and want to have a chance to win!
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    If you are okay with racing, but not competing, it can be done a whole lot cheaper.

    Stay at the track in the RV/Camper instead of a hotel saves you $400+

    Tow with your daily driver and you cut race expenses (but likely increase your dd expenses)

    Used tires/takeoffs, or new tires every other weekend saves you another $500+

    Building your own engines saves thousands per season; I did mine for 3 seasons.

    Sure you can find ways to spend a ton of money. The average-Joe isn't spending $2500/weekend unless he's only doing 4 races a season.

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    toll fees (for you poor sods in Wisconsin and Illinois


    Wisconsin has NO toll roads.

    john f

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman View Post
    If you are okay with racing, but not competing, it can be done a whole lot cheaper.

    Stay at the track in the RV/Camper instead of a hotel saves you $400+

    Tow with your daily driver and you cut race expenses (but likely increase your dd expenses)

    Used tires/takeoffs, or new tires every other weekend saves you another $500+

    Building your own engines saves thousands per season; I did mine for 3 seasons.

    Sure you can find ways to spend a ton of money. The average-Joe isn't spending $2500/weekend unless he's only doing 4 races a season.
    What creative process allows you to believe it is cheaper to own an RV than stay in a hotel for x weekends per season?

    Perhaps sleeping in a tent is cheaper. Even when I had the beater RV, my registration, insurance, AAA insurance, were as much as a hotel would be, and that was before repairs and extra fuel costs.

    I think $2500/weekend would be a realistic average-joe budget. You can't leave the house with a race car for a weekend without spending $1500.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brownslane View Post
    If you are running a bike engined P1 or P2, you should look at about 6 hours on an engine...rebuilds are about $5k. Expensive yes. Most engines let go before they wear out. I have 5 pre-built engines "in stock" right now for two sports racers. This will be enough to get them both through a season. That is $25,000 for two cars for a season of engine.

    Costs per weekend per car (away races)
    Truck fuel $500
    Hotels: $500 (two rooms, three days)
    Race entry $350
    Test day $150
    Race fuel $100
    Tires (one set) $750
    Oil/sundries $100
    Wear items (brake pads, etc) $300
    Food for team (3 people $30 per day) $270

    So, easily, I can spend over $3,000 to race away from my "home track". Every race in SCCA is an "away race" for me.

    Add the cost of additional expenses such as insurance for the trailer and truck, replacing trailer tires (common occurance), toll fees (for you poor sods in Wisconsin and Illinois ), excluding crash damage, bent rod ends, etc you should add another $3,000 for a season.

    It is an open checkbook for crash damage


    I just got back from COTA where we ran SVRA Nationals...the total bill for two cars (expenses ONLY) is over $9,000.

    In terms of marketing new cars, you need to understand what/who you are competing against. You can buy used Stohrs with good equipment and current mods for around $30K to $40K. Proven race winners, with readily available spares, multiple prep shops with experience setting up this make/model and multiple manufacturers making/selling spares and modifications.

    It will be a challenge to sell more than a few cars into this market. You can pick up a good used M20F for around the $55 to $60 mark with fresh,. solid, proven Honda power and a set of spares. Again a tough sell to market an unknown car with unproven capability, and perhaps not supported in North America.

    One way to market a chassis is to have options on engines/drivetrain. Perhaps a lower-powered car (less expensive) would allow you to lower the entry price, then you could sell an upgrade kit to greater power...or sell the car with a stock engine, then the customer could upgrade to a modified one later. (like K20).

    Also, please be sure that the applicable safety requirements for closed coupe top cars can be met by your design. I know of at least one sanctioning body that are having trouble accepting coupe top single seaters.

    Another thought. If you car meets (and is certified) to CN rules you should have no problem with homologation over here

    I am not sure what your break-even point is in your business plan; I don't think that you could sell more than a half a dozen cars a year over here in the present economy and regulatory climate. I don't think there are very many "brand new" race cars showing up to either SCCA or NASA race events each year; look at FF or FC....these are still well-subscribed classes yet there are no new manufacturers currently in production (I may be wrong ...is Radon building new cars?).

    I firmly believe that building race cars is not a good way to make a living. A good way to spend time and spend money though

    Best wishes

    Tom
    Woooww!! that's a very very good analysis!! Thank you very much Tom!! what we are trying to do right now is gather all that information you have been talking about (competitors, prices, customers...) and once we analyse the situation we'll see if we go ahead or not. Our priority market is the European one (just because our base is here). The american market is an option we're considering.

    Base on your analysis it's impossible (or almost) succeed in the american market. Initially we didn't consider the possibility of having different options, but that might be the only way of having a chance as you said. On the other hand, the situation you pictured is so bad...that our idea is simply crazy!
    You have to start somewhere, but under those conditions...

    Don't worry about homologation. We meet the FIA standards (as you said CN rules). That's why you can find our products competing across Europe without problems (and in some non EU countries too)

    So...what do you recommend!? from your point of view, what's the best solution to meet a middle class racer requirements!?

    Cheers!



    Quote Originally Posted by awegrzyn View Post
    Was it the AeroMaster's car that got you guys going? Looks impressive and it seems cheap, but I'm not sure if this would ever work.

    Hi awegrzyn!

    as you said that car looks simply impressive, but it has nothing to do with us.

    Quote Originally Posted by mousecatcher View Post
    Not in the US, not as a complete car. If you sell it as parts (roller + engine) and the owner assembles it, then it would be a kit car and as long as it meets some basic requirements (turn signals and such) then it would be legal on a state-by-state basis, ie different states will have different rules.
    Thank you mousecatcher!! racerdad2 already explained me how does it work
    Last edited by peat; 11.08.13 at 11:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by problemchild View Post
    What creative process allows you to believe it is cheaper to own an RV than stay in a hotel for x weekends per season?

    Not so much a creative process, as it is being a bean counter by nature and doing it both ways over the last 20 years.

    There are numerous 5-10 year old, low mileage RV's on the market cheaper than a new 3/4T truck. So call their purchase price a wash. Sure you can buy a cheap truck, you can also buy a $5000 RV.

    The RV gets 6MPG, say the truck gets 12MPG....I'm spending twice the amount in fuel.
    200 miles round-trip and the truck saves less than $60 in fuel. Then you still have to drive the truck from the hotel-track-hotel at least 2x. Probably more like $75 cheaper on gas. That doesn't pay for 1 night at most hotels, much less 2. Then you have food savings with the RV as well.

    Insurance on my RV is cheaper than insurance on any of the 4 cars in our family.

    Tags on my 2002 RV are cheaper than tags on our 2006 Honda, 2008 Subaru, and 2011 Toyota.

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    Quote Originally Posted by problemchild View Post
    I think $2500/weekend would be a realistic average-joe budget. You can't leave the house with a race car for a weekend without spending $1500.
    Try to keep in mind how many folks are out there doing this that aren't towing with $200K+ RV's, buying new tires every weekend, getting $8K+ motor rebuilds every season, aren't doing test days, etc.

    I did it for years with 2 IT cars, an EProd car and an FV each on about 1500/weekend. I tried to do it in FF and found myself with a knife at a gun fight so to speak. Had I not cared where I finished, I could have done it there too.

    Purple Frog did it in FC.

    Budgets all over the place, still quite a few club/hobby racers filling up grids that are just trying to do more with less.

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    peat, you should talk to Ralph Firman. He brought new cars over here. Ask him how he did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tlandon View Post
    peat, you should talk to Ralph Firman. He brought new cars over here. Ask him how he did.
    It's not just about importing cars. It's more about market opportunities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john f View Post
    toll fees (for you poor sods in Wisconsin and Illinois


    Wisconsin has NO toll roads.

    john f

    You are correct. Driving south out of Milwaukee I hit tolls pretty quickly...same deal driving across Chicago....all in Illinois!

    I stand corrected! You not only have the best cheese, but the roads are free!!!

    Best, Tom
    Tom Owen
    Owner - Browns Lane and Racelaminates.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by S Lathrop View Post
    The cars are expensive because they are equipped very well. The top cars will have $6000 in shocks, data systems over $5000, and a Hewland tranny in the US is over $5000. An FC engine package is $14000 with ECU and harness. Good wheels are $3000 a set or more. Because US cars only meet the US rules, there is no market for our cars outside of North America. That differences in the rules gives US only cars an advantage over cars built to English rules. So our markets are very small.

    The other characteristic of our customers is that most tend to be well over 30 and are doing this as a hobby. Many have been racing these classes for decades. In the pro F2000 series over 60% of the drivers are masters, over 40. There are only a few of those guys who have the money to buy expensive cars and race them.

    The last run of cars I did was 9, over 3 classes. The first one started racing in 2007. The last 3 of the 9 are still waiting to be finished. Firman sold more cars over FC and FB and Radon has done half a dozen or so. That is the most of the cars over the last 7 years. That is not even a good one year run for an English builder. Firman sells their basic car all over the world. He could not survive on the US market alone. There are a couple new makes of cars out there as well. VD in its various forms makes up the rest of the market.
    No disrespect Steve, bot since 2007 we have sold thirty six FB cars. We have also sold forty three sports racers. Of all the cars we have sold, only one was in kit form and that was a retired racer who needed a hobby.

    Wayne Felch
    Stohr Cars

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    This is very interesting, a few people understand the ( Sports Racer ) Car / Class I have been working on for a few years. The Class will run in the SCCA Improved Touring Group, ONLY in the Enduro races, they are 1 1/2 hours or longer. The cars could also run in NASA as well. My new 1 1/2" tube enclosed cockpit is a Single Seat and very comfortable to drive. I can offer a Pre-Bent and Marked to Cut kit at this time. IF this class gets traction it will be a Home Built, from kit / parts, Sports Racer class, the Open Aero, per the OLD A-Sports Racer Rules will add another demsion to the set up of the cars, maybe money will not be an easy win.
    I have limited the the engine size to 2800cc because a 3.2 Acura TL Drive Train would just be TOO FAST.

    The 2500cc Drive train cars should weigh about 1700 lbs, the smaller the engine size the more slight mods you get, (not the 2000cc V-Tec), the B-16 will run about 9000 rpm. The Unbeatable Package will be the 2012 and up Civic Si, 2400cc with Headers ECU and Cold Air Intake. New Drive Trains from a Rear Ended Total Loss car is allowed, this will get the Manufactures VERY Interested.

    I really want the Front suspension to be Miata (or any OEM that is available from junk yards) Wilwood now offers a 6 piston BB Kit for Miata, it's $900. Also a STOCK 600cc Chain Drive would be allowed with Miata Suspension F & R and a "Live" Chain Drive. I will build one if Someone offers the Chain Drive unit for under $500 for the 1600cc car rear suspension. I am not sure if the Trans will hold up, I know you will not be down shifting very hard.

    My plan is to offer a base Pre Bent Tube Chassis kit and a Body kit, it will not be just bolt it togeather. Anyone can make and sell parts for the cars and even copy my tube cockpit with your changes, just make it safe. Some of the cars in the Group weigh 3500 lbs.

    Pete, I hope this gives you some ideas for the only real Endurance club racing in the USA, I think a complete welded, ready to bolt in a Honda Si or some other drivetrain Chassis / Tub along with a Body kit and other parts will sell. The kit parts must allowed to be purchased seperatly / as needed - or - afforded by the builder, this will lower your production costs and you might sell 2 to 5 complete cars the first year. The transalxel you proposed costs about $20,000 unless someone is selling Knock Offs from China, and they must be rebuilt often. My car at Half the original oem weight will not care what you do to the drive train. The Old GTP Cars were H Pattern Shifter, & btw, No Data Collected or Transmitted from the cars, this will keep costs down. Also, any Non-Metal Tub MUST Meet FIA and Be FIA Approved, I think.

    My web is DaytonaPrototypeLight.com I will put pics of the new car up in mid December, it is the short silver tube closed cockpit, it will get a 2006 VW VR-6 Jetta rive Train. I have stopped work on the Honda Civic 1600cc Open Top Car, it now rolls but still needs a lot of work. Thanks

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    to connor: Wow, a 2.8L sports racer with ASR aero rules, and modern aero development. That sounds like a formula for some really fast cars. How are those miata or LT suspension components going to hold up to several thousand pounds of downforce in an endurance race, no less? OK, I see that is for the front, still a little weak for a 250-300HP car with high downforce. I would allow the GT version too, as well as allowing any duplicates of the rear suspension used, up front, making spares easier.

    I like your concept. I am not sure how many home builders are out there, but it is an interesting formula that could definitely be as fast or faster than DSR, or CSR type cars for less money if done right.

    I hope you accept drivetrains from mid engined cars as well(Fiero, MR2, Boxster) It would open up the class to possibly be a PCA class as well. I would love to build a Prototype with a Stock base Boxster drivetrain, and a lightweight tube chassis and ungodly downforce, if it could be done for a reasonable amount of money, and I'm sure there would be a pretty large market for such a car, with all of the Porsche club racers and even those wishing to have a track day special instead of tearing up their expensive late model Porsche.

    I think you could gain some traction with this concept if you get some cars built and run them. I think the rules may need some tweaking though, and I wouldn't limit it to IT endurance events.

    I think a 2.5/2.7L porsche engined version(200-265HP depending on year) would be the best, most marketable version. If it were to resemble a RS spyder, or better yet, the new LMP car that Porsche will soon release, all the better. Base Boxster engines and transmissions are not too terribly priced, and should be extremely durable. I would be willing to bet that an engine and transmission would last for many seasons in stock form. The Spec Boxster and Cayman interseries(slightly different engine) cars have proven to have very long engine life, with very few, if any failures.

    P.S. I would suggest allowing base Boxster engines up to 02 for the current 2.8L class, unless there are other engines available with more than 217HP, then there is the 03-04 2.7 with variable lift cam(245HP). If the 217HP is too much, the 2.5 used from 97-99 is under 200hp, but more limited in supply, and less reliable. If you are just limiting to 2.8 L engines, the the 265HP direct injection 2.7 from the new(2013up) Boxster would be killer. The engines are fairly heavy though, as are the 6 speed transmisssions. It may be prudent to allow the more powerful engines at a higher minimum weight with driver if the cars are not using much ballast with the lighter engine options and a larger driver.
    Last edited by autodoctor911; 11.30.13 at 8:07 AM.

  37. #77
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    Default British enclosed prototype CN race car.

    Peat, is is actually cheaper to construct composite chassis stucturesnow, than to make a spaceframe?

    I had always thought the labor cost could be enough lower than a space frame if production could be streamlined , and if you chose the fabrics and resins for cost effectiveness, rather than minimum weight, you could build a composite tub chassis for less than a spaceframe. The fiberglass and aramid fibers should be as cheap as steel, or cheaper, while having a strength to weight that is much closer to carbon fiber. Of course you would want to use at least one layer of carbon, to satisfy peoples desire for a "carbon"tub.

    The biggest expense is the design, and certification, correct?

    As far as the idea that people want Formula one performance for the price of a Hyundai, I don't think people are that unreasonable.

    What people want is a race car that looks as fast as a Formula 1 or other top level car. I think most racers are happy with the speeds the groups are running, as long as they are able to compete for wins, but a lot of the cars that are fast, don't have the sex appeal that a top pro level car does.

    Certainly race cars could be made to look better, and even get lower lap times without being overly expensive, if you could use a lot of production car parts on a sexy chassis, with wide tires and aerodynamic bodywork and wings.

    Instead of expensive, high strung, short lived motorcycle and racing engines, and sequential transmissions, just use reliable, larger displacement stock street car engines, and their appropriate fully synchronized transmissions. If you are dead set against using a clutch to shift, use an automatic. You could probably even rig up some way of making it pop when it shifts to sound like a flatshifter.

  38. #78
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    First things first! sorry guys for such a huge delay on my replay. The last couple of weeks have been hectic!


    Quote Originally Posted by connersportsracers View Post
    This is very interesting, a few people understand the ( Sports Racer ) Car / Class I have been working on for a few years. The Class will run in the SCCA Improved Touring Group, ONLY in the Enduro races, they are 1 1/2 hours or longer. The cars could also run in NASA as well. My new 1 1/2" tube enclosed cockpit is a Single Seat and very comfortable to drive. I can offer a Pre-Bent and Marked to Cut kit at this time. IF this class gets traction it will be a Home Built, from kit / parts, Sports Racer class, the Open Aero, per the OLD A-Sports Racer Rules will add another demsion to the set up of the cars, maybe money will not be an easy win.
    I have limited the the engine size to 2800cc because a 3.2 Acura TL Drive Train would just be TOO FAST.

    The 2500cc Drive train cars should weigh about 1700 lbs, the smaller the engine size the more slight mods you get, (not the 2000cc V-Tec), the B-16 will run about 9000 rpm. The Unbeatable Package will be the 2012 and up Civic Si, 2400cc with Headers ECU and Cold Air Intake. New Drive Trains from a Rear Ended Total Loss car is allowed, this will get the Manufactures VERY Interested.

    I really want the Front suspension to be Miata (or any OEM that is available from junk yards) Wilwood now offers a 6 piston BB Kit for Miata, it's $900. Also a STOCK 600cc Chain Drive would be allowed with Miata Suspension F & R and a "Live" Chain Drive. I will build one if Someone offers the Chain Drive unit for under $500 for the 1600cc car rear suspension. I am not sure if the Trans will hold up, I know you will not be down shifting very hard.

    My plan is to offer a base Pre Bent Tube Chassis kit and a Body kit, it will not be just bolt it togeather. Anyone can make and sell parts for the cars and even copy my tube cockpit with your changes, just make it safe. Some of the cars in the Group weigh 3500 lbs.

    Pete, I hope this gives you some ideas for the only real Endurance club racing in the USA, I think a complete welded, ready to bolt in a Honda Si or some other drivetrain Chassis / Tub along with a Body kit and other parts will sell. The kit parts must allowed to be purchased seperatly / as needed - or - afforded by the builder, this will lower your production costs and you might sell 2 to 5 complete cars the first year. The transalxel you proposed costs about $20,000 unless someone is selling Knock Offs from China, and they must be rebuilt often. My car at Half the original oem weight will not care what you do to the drive train. The Old GTP Cars were H Pattern Shifter, & btw, No Data Collected or Transmitted from the cars, this will keep costs down. Also, any Non-Metal Tub MUST Meet FIA and Be FIA Approved, I think.

    My web is DaytonaPrototypeLight.com I will put pics of the new car up in mid December, it is the short silver tube closed cockpit, it will get a 2006 VW VR-6 Jetta rive Train. I have stopped work on the Honda Civic 1600cc Open Top Car, it now rolls but still needs a lot of work. Thanks
    Thank you very much for sharing your view point connersportsracers. Money, if well spend, is always an easy win.


    Quote Originally Posted by autodoctor911 View Post
    Peat, is is actually cheaper to construct composite chassis stucturesnow, than to make a spaceframe?

    I had always thought the labor cost could be enough lower than a space frame if production could be streamlined , and if you chose the fabrics and resins for cost effectiveness, rather than minimum weight, you could build a composite tub chassis for less than a spaceframe. The fiberglass and aramid fibers should be as cheap as steel, or cheaper, while having a strength to weight that is much closer to carbon fiber. Of course you would want to use at least one layer of carbon, to satisfy peoples desire for a "carbon"tub.

    The biggest expense is the design, and certification, correct?

    As far as the idea that people want Formula one performance for the price of a Hyundai, I don't think people are that unreasonable.

    What people want is a race car that looks as fast as a Formula 1 or other top level car. I think most racers are happy with the speeds the groups are running, as long as they are able to compete for wins, but a lot of the cars that are fast, don't have the sex appeal that a top pro level car does.

    Certainly race cars could be made to look better, and even get lower lap times without being overly expensive, if you could use a lot of production car parts on a sexy chassis, with wide tires and aerodynamic bodywork and wings.

    Instead of expensive, high strung, short lived motorcycle and racing engines, and sequential transmissions, just use reliable, larger displacement stock street car engines, and their appropriate fully synchronized transmissions. If you are dead set against using a clutch to shift, use an automatic. You could probably even rig up some way of making it pop when it shifts to sound like a flatshifter.

    Hi autodoctor911! thank you very much for your post! Well, it depends on your targets. In general terms is cheaper a spaceframe than a monocoque. A quick estimation base on your approach to compare different chassis:
    -open cars composite monocoque:
    price: $5,000 to $6,500
    Chassis weight: 85 to 100Kg
    Torsional stiffness: 12 to 14kNm/deg

    -close cars composite monocoque:
    price: $8,200 to $9,500
    Chassis weight: 110 to 140Kg
    Torsional stiffness: 16 to 18kNm/deg

    - Aluminio tub lower half(evora style):
    price: $3,000 to $4,500
    Torsional stiffness 14 to 16kNm/deg
    Chassis weight 150 to 200kg
    *A rollcage should be added (increase torsional stiffness)

    -Tubular spaceframe (closed car):
    price: $2,800 to $5,500
    Torsional stiffness 12 to 25kNm/deg (even more, depend on design)
    Chassis weight: approx. 160Kg (I think that's a good ballpark figure)
    *this figures might improve when adding panels.



    *An F1 monocoque should be in the 40 to 70Kg? neighborhood (or even less). Torsional stiffness: 40 to 60kNm/deg? $650,000 each !?
    *reference for the price: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...xpenses/page/5


    Yes, design and certification take always a big chunk of your budget.

    I agree with you. Race cars could be made to look better and to have that sex apeal that top pro level car does.
    I should say that when it comes to performance, there are a line between production car parts and performance. The balance you achieve between both will determine how fast your car is. That lead me again to the point "formula one performance for the price of a Hyundai". You said that racers will be happy as long as they can compete for wings, don't you!? right, there will be always one or two drivers in the pack with the highest budgets. Do you wanna be able to compete for wins!? because to do so you need their budget. I don't know if you got my point!
    As I said before, the motorsport equation is pretty easy (at least the most of the time): the more money you spend, the faster you go. We are just trying to find a good balance between cost and performance.
    Our current model, depending on the track, is faster than cars that cost 5 times more (in terms of purchase price and running costs). We are one step behind compare to some other vehicles due to our regulation, but with some power train and aero upgrades (your regulations are more permissive) we'll be at the pace or even faster than those vehicles and still 4 or 4.5 times cheaper (a bit higher purchase price but lower maintenance cost).

    Our estimation for a season (after including some changes):

    - 20 hours race season -> approx. $5,300-6,000
    *Considering recommended life expectancy of components under racing conditions.
    *Amortized engine rebuild, trammy, chassis, suspension...
    *Consumables not included: tires, gas, oil, air filters, brake pads and discs.
    *Accidents/car breakdown not included.

    We still off target considering that consumables, entry fees, travel and similar expenses are not included. We believe that the latest design changes lead to $1,000 budget reduction compare to our initial estimation. This is just an estimation though.
    *Target: $5,000 to $10,000 (all included).

    I don't agree about larger displacement stock street car engines as solution (big different between US and EU). As Mr. Chapman said: “Adding power makes you faster on the straights, subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere.” A good suspension design that allows you to use your tire properly, good aero and a low weight (good power to weight ratio) is my way to go. Motorsport is about cornering capabilities (at least in road racing).


    As you all can see we all have different opinions/ideas. My question now is: what's good for you!? (in terms of purchase price, performance and running cost). What's your perfect balance between those!? what do you expect considering your budget!?


    Once again, thank you so much for all your help guys!! I really appreciate it!
    Last edited by peat; 12.09.13 at 4:42 PM.

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    I would think there is a market in the states for this. Look at what is running now. The new caterham sp300, the radicals, the wolf gb08 and the Norma m20f that ran in the 25 hours this past weekend. At $80k, if competitive, this would be a bargain. It would almost be a LMP3 car i would guess? The afford mentioned cars aren't flying off the shelves, but their market is getting larger and larger. HSR is accepting them now too and that opens up a whole new market that hasn't really been tapped yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jarez mifkin View Post
    I would think there is a market in the states for this. Look at what is running now. The new caterham sp300, the radicals, the wolf gb08 and the Norma m20f that ran in the 25 hours this past weekend. At $80k, if competitive, this would be a bargain. It would almost be a LMP3 car i would guess? The afford mentioned cars aren't flying off the shelves, but their market is getting larger and larger. HSR is accepting them now too and that opens up a whole new market that hasn't really been tapped yet.
    At this point we have two options:

    1- We can go for an expensive option in the $80K neighborhood.
    2- We can go for a more cost effective option (cheaper).

    Base on the information you all provided I think that option 2 is better than 1. So...all the numbers I have been posting are base on option 1.
    My initial plan was a design base on option 1, but as I said, I made up my mind and decided option 2 as the way to go. I'm about handing my boss the final report. I'll start designing as soon as he agrees.

    On the other hand, if my boss does not agree, I'm considering offering my knowledge/design to an american company interested in this idea or any other racecar design related.

    jarez mifkin regaring my initial option 1 idea...yes, it's the same philosophy than an LMP3. The main difference are: spaceframe rather than monocoque and different power train probably (not sure as LMP3 regulations has not been release yet). Running cost are higher than option 2 but considering price/performace still a good option.

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