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Old November 1st, 2013, 3:47 PM   #1
peat
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Default LMP1 car

Hello,

Endurance events are getting more and more interesting every year. It's simply impressive how events such as 25 hours of thunderhill is attracting more and more top competitors.
For that reason we are thinking about designing a LMP1 style car to take part in endurance championship under ESR regulation. The idea is to create something cost effective, competitive, easy to drive,maintain and operate...a car able to fight for overall victories at a fraction of the price of other cars.
So...regarding the technical specs of the car...we just have some basic requirements...
-LMP1 style (closed wheels and cockpit).
-Rear wheel drive.
-Sequential gearbox.
-Advance aero package.
-Power to be determined.
-Price between $54,000-$67,500 (the worst case scenario $81,000).

So, I would like to know your opinion about the idea, who might be interested in such a car (extremely important this point, without clients...)...all your feedbacks and suggestions are more than welcome and will be taken into consideration.

Unfortunately I am not able to give you details about the company I'm working for yet. I can say that is an European company, our HQ is located in Europe and that our cars have really good winning records (in our country and in other European countries).

Thank you very much for your time and attention, I hope to hear your opinion.

Kind regards,


Peat

Last edited by peat; November 1st, 2013 at 4:24 PM.
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 7:40 AM   #2
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153 views and 0 replies!!?
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 9:21 AM   #3
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Hello,

-Price between $54,000-$67,500 (the worst case scenario $81,000).

Peat

I doubt that you can do a car of those specs for double your target price. Even triple would be tough.

You must have an ides of how you will built such a car. Maybe you could share those ideas.
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 9:40 AM   #4
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Default Lmp1 car

At first I was thinking you were going to build a one-off car, then you mention clients taking orders. I'm not sure if your market is large enough to support such a project. Yes, endurance racing is popular with $500 beaters (24 hrs is LeMons / Chump Car), I only know of two events, 25 hr of Thunderhill and Longest day at Nelson Ledges for amateur road racers. Not sure if the car you mentioned is legal for The Longest Day event. Would someone spend upwards of $81,000 for car they race one weekend a year? You can buy a sports racer and build a carbon fiber cockpit surround for far less then $81k. What is a used Daytona Prototype worth?
Maybe your 153 views and no response posting below supports my comments. Good Luck.
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 11:19 AM   #5
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I doubt that you can do a car of those specs for double your target price. Even triple would be tough.

You must have an ides of how you will built such a car. Maybe you could share those ideas.
First things first, thank you very much for your opinion. It's fair enough, I understand your doubts. Of course I have an idea on how to build such a car, but unfortunately I'm not able to provide details at this stage of the project. We know that this decision may lead to a lack of credibility. Bare in mind that this is just an initial research, we are not asking for anything but your opinion. Moreover, we are new to the american motorsport market. Your point of view is quiet different to the European one and unfortunately we can not proceed as we usually do over here in Europe: go and ask directly to our clients, other contenders in the grid or even asking people in competing in a different class. This is the only way we can gather some information, but if anyone have any other idea on how can we do it...we'll appreciate!
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 11:55 AM   #6
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At first I was thinking you were going to build a one-off car, then you mention clients taking orders. I'm not sure if your market is large enough to support such a project. Yes, endurance racing is popular with $500 beaters (24 hrs is LeMons / Chump Car), I only know of two events, 25 hr of Thunderhill and Longest day at Nelson Ledges for amateur road racers. Not sure if the car you mentioned is legal for The Longest Day event. Would someone spend upwards of $81,000 for car they race one weekend a year? You can buy a sports racer and build a carbon fiber cockpit surround for far less then $81k. What is a used Daytona Prototype worth?
Maybe your 153 views and no response posting below supports my comments. Good Luck.
Thank you very much for your input Ian Lenhart. That is exactly what we are trying to know, is the market large enough for this project? Being on the other side of the world makes everything more complex. Unfortunately, due to the circumstances this is the only way we have to gather the information (not the best way).
There are more endurance events. An endurance event does not mean a 24 or 25 hours race, actually there are just one 24 hours race in the WEC calendar. The rest are 3 or 6 hours events. You have an endurance championship:
http://www.nasaproracing.com/aboutnasa/endurance
As you can see it's not just for a weekend. Moreover, the idea behind the project is having a car not just for those races, but trackdays and other events (we are working out this point at the moment).
Bare in mind that $81,000 is the worst case scenario (expected $54,000). On the other hand, I'm afraid a daytona prototype cost by far more. A MK XXVI DAYTONA PROTOTYPE cost $445,000, standard chassis and customer supply engine, data and fuel management and the car is delivered on used tyres brand new. If you are very optimistic you'll find it for 1/5 of the initial cost $89,000, but you'll have to pay quiet a lot for rebuilding the engine/gearbox (I won't consider other things you'll have to do). Moreover, you should consider the running cost of such a beast (once again, by far more expensive than our option)...

Am I trying to say that the car we are thinking about is the best ever build!? for God shake no! A Daytona protype have been design with certain types of events/drivers in mind (big teams playing in big leagues). What we are trying to do is something competitive and affordable.
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 12:12 PM   #7
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Ok. So I gather you are talking about a "spec" car.

Here is my analysis and it is worth what you are paying for it:

I think racing in general is in a decline. Autosport published an editorial about this just this year.

I hold this opinion for 2 reasons: 1, young people are not coming into the sport except when their dads are funding them; and two, the cost of racing has made it available only to the upper income earners.

When I started racing in the late '60's you could go racing with new cars that cost about half of what was then medium income. This was entry level racing, FV or H Prod. Later the costs rose for FF and FSV to about 100% of medium income for new cars. But you could buy a used car for a lot less and get into the game as well. And there were plenty of people who wanted to go racing. Most of us were in our mid to late 20"s. Now I don't see that population starting or even interested. We still have a few spots where racing is doing decently but the age of the participants is getting to there many are using Social Security money to race.

The only think I have seen lately that reminds me of the days when I started is the Drifting cars. The paddocks are filled with young people and most cars arrive on open trailers.

Add to this a bum economy that has not seen any real growth of disposable income (money to go racing) in over a decade. Now you have the American market for race cars, especially road racing. Ever decreasing population of people who can afford to race or have the physical ability to do it any more.
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 12:52 PM   #8
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Steve has the reality of American racing. Far too many of the youngsters are content playing race driver in front of their monitors. Racing costs have far outpaced average incomes for many years. The anti-auto propaganda has convinced many youngsters that cars are not only un-necessary, but evil. That said, an economical race car that is inexpensive to own, race & maintain has been the Holy Grail of middle-class racers for decades. Road racing has suffered as have the local circle tracks. American racers are turning to spec cars, crate engines, etc. to keep costs down & to keep racing alive. Perhaps a drawing, some specs, would create more interest. Far too many of us have heard of the next really fast, really cheap to own, really cheap to race, cheap to maintain race car, that we are a bit skeptical of the next great car.... Many would love to see a $50k LMP type car. Over here we have a saying..." Build it & they will come " Sincerely hope your project comes to fruition.
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 1:31 PM   #9
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Ok. So I gather you are talking about a "spec" car.

Here is my analysis and it is worth what you are paying for it:

I think racing in general is in a decline. Autosport published an editorial about this just this year.

I hold this opinion for 2 reasons: 1, young people are not coming into the sport except when their dads are funding them; and two, the cost of racing has made it available only to the upper income earners.

When I started racing in the late '60's you could go racing with new cars that cost about half of what was then medium income. This was entry level racing, FV or H Prod. Later the costs rose for FF and FSV to about 100% of medium income for new cars. But you could buy a used car for a lot less and get into the game as well. And there were plenty of people who wanted to go racing. Most of us were in our mid to late 20"s. Now I don't see that population starting or even interested. We still have a few spots where racing is doing decently but the age of the participants is getting to there many are using Social Security money to race.

The only think I have seen lately that reminds me of the days when I started is the Drifting cars. The paddocks are filled with young people and most cars arrive on open trailers.

Add to this a bum economy that has not seen any real growth of disposable income (money to go racing) in over a decade. Now you have the American market for race cars, especially road racing. Ever decreasing population of people who can afford to race or have the physical ability to do it any more.
Once again, thank you very much for your help. We really appreciate it!
I completely agree with you, racing is in a clear decline (at least here in europe). For that reason we decided to cross the european boarders. A report from the MIA (motorsport industry association) said that USA was the first motorsport market, so we decided to take a look. We studied the different options available within the market considering our products/experience. For us was surprising the amount of money amateur drivers pay for racing (in terms of vehicle, tires, equipment...). Some people over there at amateur levels spend more money than some semi-pro teams here.
After much considerations, our best option was endurance races. Our initial study determined that the average price of the cars in the grid was $32,000. We fixed a target prize of $47,000 for a car more competitive than those and almost the same running cost. After a quick review, due to the big amount of uncertainties, we decided to increase the initial price ($54,000-$67,500). One of the products we offer fit quiet well in our matrix, but some changes are required to adapt it to the american market. So before making any movement, we decided to double check the information we had about the american market and here we are.

Following your point about racing in a clear decline, the company initial clients used to be pro-drivers or amateur drivers trying to make their way to the top. At that time drivers used to get sponsors quiet easily.
Years later, gentleman drivers joined the initial group. That was the best period of time. All the people was into motorsport.
A few years ago, unfortunately the crisis come and we lost a lot of clients. In our days we just have pro-drivers who have sponsors and just a few gentleman drivers. What initially was sell and maintain, now is just sell mainly.
My point is...if you americans, the first motorsport market, are struggling...you don't wanna know what's going on here...
That's why we are trying to offer something competitive but affordable at the same time.
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 2:29 PM   #10
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Steve has the reality of American racing. Far too many of the youngsters are content playing race driver in front of their monitors. Racing costs have far outpaced average incomes for many years. The anti-auto propaganda has convinced many youngsters that cars are not only un-necessary, but evil. That said, an economical race car that is inexpensive to own, race & maintain has been the Holy Grail of middle-class racers for decades. Road racing has suffered as have the local circle tracks. American racers are turning to spec cars, crate engines, etc. to keep costs down & to keep racing alive. Perhaps a drawing, some specs, would create more interest. Far too many of us have heard of the next really fast, really cheap to own, really cheap to race, cheap to maintain race car, that we are a bit skeptical of the next great car.... Many would love to see a $50k LMP type car. Over here we have a saying..." Build it & they will come " Sincerely hope your project comes to fruition.
Thank you very much racerdad2!! it's very nice having your point of view. I didn't know the young people point of view towards the sport :S really worrying actually!!I can understand the economical reasons, but this one...
Yes, such a car have been the Holy Grail for decades as you said. The problem is that people want a F1 car, for the price of a stock car and the maintenance cost of a bicycle and that's impossible.
Now my question is, how much money are the american middle-class racers currently spending!? because base on what I have seen...it's way more than the european ones.
As I said before, I understand your skepticism. Unfortunately I can't give more details yet (I think this is playing against me). The formula is working quiet well for us over here and hopefully it will work as well or even better over there. The only thing we need to know before making any movement is if such a car is appealing to the market.
Thank you very much for your good wishes! Hopefully we'll see some interest over there and we'll find our way to go there for some races and end up selling cars...
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 2:43 PM   #11
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Your target market is extremely small. I pulled up some reports from last years 25 hours of Thunderhill and there was 2 or 3 cars in the fastest class. At the 12 hr mark a Chevy Silveraldo pickup truck was leading overall. The completion is weak. In my mind NASA has taken a back seat to SCCA. Majority of the grid consists of $3000-$8000 Improved touring sedans.
Maybe if the car is street legal, then it will appeal to a larger market.

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Old November 2nd, 2013, 3:21 PM   #12
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Your target market is extremely small. I pulled up some reports from last years 25 hours of Thunderhill and there was 2 or 3 cars in the fastest class. At the 12 hr mark a Chevy Silveraldo pickup truck was leading overall. The completion is weak. In my mind NASA has taken a back seat to SCCA. Majority of the grid consists of $3000-$8000 Improved touring sedans.
Maybe if the car is street legal, then it will appeal to a larger market.

Ian
Yes, if it's like you are saying...it doesn't look as good as we expected and our market will be extremely small! This years looks better though (2 or 3 more cars in the fastest class):
http://www.nasaproracing.com/2013/10...racting-t.html
I expected more people at the level of FB or DSR guys. Perhaps some of these guys or guys from other classes wanna try endurance races!
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 5:32 PM   #13
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[QUOTE=peat;411224 Our initial study determined that the average price of the cars in the grid was $32,000. [/QUOTE]

That is a very good target price range for a entry to mid level car. Problem is that for purpose built race cars, formula and sports racing, cost way more than that new. In the quantities that we are selling cars today, you can not build a competitive new car for FF, FC, or FB/F1000 for double that. I estimate that because of the body work for a sports racer, you are talking $10,000 to $15,000 more than a formula car.

The last "volume" produced formula car in the US was the Radon. As best as I can tell that car cost about $90,000 or there about. At that price, you only have a few customers. The going price for winning FC is more like $50,000. That is only possible because there are a lot of very competitive used cars, i.e. late model VDs.

Years ago, I structured my business after the "amateur built" aircraft in the US. In that market, you only make those parts that the builder/driver can not do for himself. By recycling parts and doing ones own assembly, a customer can build a competitive car for close to the $50,000.

A few years ago, I propose that we do a FF type car but using a single 600cc bike engine and transmission, similar to Dwarf Cars and Mini Sprints.. The rules for the class would contain drawings for certain standard parts. Builders would do their own suspension links, frames and bodies. But many parts would be common to all cars. Common parts could be built by anybody but to the drawings contained in the rules. Builders of common components would have to mark their parts to identify who made them so that if the part was ever found not to comply with the drawings, the offending parts could easily be identified. Competition from manufacturers of common components would drive the costs to a sustainable minimum.

Like Formula Vee, where every car is built from a box of standardized parts, this class would be based on standardized designs for many components. The beginnings of Formula Ford was very much like FV with most cars using a large number of common parts such as wheels, uprights, brakes, transmission, engine and bell housings. I went so far as to draw up front corner that could be built for about $500. That was a wheel, brake caliper, rotor, spindle and upright. Sadly there was no interest in exploring the idea.
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 6:48 PM   #14
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That is a very good target price range for a entry to mid level car. Problem is that for purpose built race cars, formula and sports racing, cost way more than that new. In the quantities that we are selling cars today, you can not build a competitive new car for FF, FC, or FB/F1000 for double that. I estimate that because of the body work for a sports racer, you are talking $10,000 to $15,000 more than a formula car.

The last "volume" produced formula car in the US was the Radon. As best as I can tell that car cost about $90,000 or there about. At that price, you only have a few customers. The going price for winning FC is more like $50,000. That is only possible because there are a lot of very competitive used cars, i.e. late model VDs.

Years ago, I structured my business after the "amateur built" aircraft in the US. In that market, you only make those parts that the builder/driver can not do for himself. By recycling parts and doing ones own assembly, a customer can build a competitive car for close to the $50,000.

A few years ago, I propose that we do a FF type car but using a single 600cc bike engine and transmission, similar to Dwarf Cars and Mini Sprints.. The rules for the class would contain drawings for certain standard parts. Builders would do their own suspension links, frames and bodies. But many parts would be common to all cars. Common parts could be built by anybody but to the drawings contained in the rules. Builders of common components would have to mark their parts to identify who made them so that if the part was ever found not to comply with the drawings, the offending parts could easily be identified. Competition from manufacturers of common components would drive the costs to a sustainable minimum.

Like Formula Vee, where every car is built from a box of standardized parts, this class would be based on standardized designs for many components. The beginnings of Formula Ford was very much like FV with most cars using a large number of common parts such as wheels, uprights, brakes, transmission, engine and bell housings. I went so far as to draw up front corner that could be built for about $500. That was a wheel, brake caliper, rotor, spindle and upright. Sadly there was no interest in exploring the idea.
I agree with you, $32,000 is a very good target price, but it's almost impossible to achieve it. $47,000 sounds more realistic and for $57,000 we shouldn't have problems. Once again it depends on what you want (multifunctional steering wheel with multiples screen or a normal one; a racing seat from X maker or from Y when both have pass the same test with the same results but x cost 2 time Y...).

May I ask you why are cars in those series (FF, FC, or FB/F1000 ) so expensive!?I'm really curious about it.

On the other hand, if you say that a winning FC is in the $50,000 neighborhood because there are a lot of very competitive used cars, I assumed that the $57,000 I mentioned before for a brand new one is not too bad. The problem is who can afford paying that money!?

Regarding your proposed formula, it's a good idea. This solution is not solely use in the motorsport lower end, but at the highest levels too (with some differences). The best example (my favourite one) is DTM. Even Formula 1 is starting to standardize some parts (ECU for example, supplied by McLaren electronics).
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 7:50 PM   #15
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Check out the new English FF for comparison. Our 'new' formula cars are built in low numbers with high quality parts and are handcrafted. 'IF' there was a market for a mass produced formula car, prices would be reduced. Too bad Steve's FF / cycle car never came to pass. I have several friends racing Legends cars cheaper than racing my karts.... Please keep us posted on your car's progress. I believe you'll generate real interest once you have some up & running.
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 9:55 PM   #16
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I agree with you, $32,000 is a very good target price, but it's almost impossible to achieve it. $47,000 sounds more realistic and for $57,000 we shouldn't have problems. Once again it depends on what you want (multifunctional steering wheel with multiples screen or a normal one; a racing seat from X maker or from Y when both have pass the same test with the same results but x cost 2 time Y...).

May I ask you why are cars in those series (FF, FC, or FB/F1000 ) so expensive!?I'm really curious about it.

On the other hand, if you say that a winning FC is in the $50,000 neighborhood because there are a lot of very competitive used cars, I assumed that the $57,000 I mentioned before for a brand new one is not too bad. The problem is who can afford paying that money!?
The cars are expensive because they are equipped very well. The top cars will have $6000 in shocks, data systems over $5000, and a Hewland tranny in the US is over $5000. An FC engine package is $14000 with ECU and harness. Good wheels are $3000 a set or more. Because US cars only meet the US rules, there is no market for our cars outside of North America. That differences in the rules gives US only cars an advantage over cars built to English rules. So our markets are very small.

The other characteristic of our customers is that most tend to be well over 30 and are doing this as a hobby. Many have been racing these classes for decades. In the pro F2000 series over 60% of the drivers are masters, over 40. There are only a few of those guys who have the money to buy expensive cars and race them.

The last run of cars I did was 9, over 3 classes. The first one started racing in 2007. The last 3 of the 9 are still waiting to be finished. Firman sold more cars over FC and FB and Radon has done half a dozen or so. That is the most of the cars over the last 7 years. That is not even a good one year run for an English builder. Firman sells their basic car all over the world. He could not survive on the US market alone. There are a couple new makes of cars out there as well. VD in its various forms makes up the rest of the market.
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 11:17 PM   #17
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Endurance racing 'may' be growing in the USA and that would be GOOD. To see where the real class of the show is, read this thread:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...highlight=wolf


We need more people to get interested in Grand Am/ALMS and separate Endurance events like 25 hour of thunderhill.

P.S. If you can build a less expensive WOLF.. good on you!!
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Old November 3rd, 2013, 5:59 AM   #18
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Check out the new English FF for comparison. Our 'new' formula cars are built in low numbers with high quality parts and are handcrafted. 'IF' there was a market for a mass produced formula car, prices would be reduced. Too bad Steve's FF / cycle car never came to pass. I have several friends racing Legends cars cheaper than racing my karts.... Please keep us posted on your car's progress. I believe you'll generate real interest once you have some up & running.
Thank you very much for the info racerdad2, really useful. I'll keep you update!

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The cars are expensive because they are equipped very well. The top cars will have $6000 in shocks, data systems over $5000, and a Hewland tranny in the US is over $5000. An FC engine package is $14000 with ECU and harness. Good wheels are $3000 a set or more. Because US cars only meet the US rules, there is no market for our cars outside of North America. That differences in the rules gives US only cars an advantage over cars built to English rules. So our markets are very small.

The other characteristic of our customers is that most tend to be well over 30 and are doing this as a hobby. Many have been racing these classes for decades. In the pro F2000 series over 60% of the drivers are masters, over 40. There are only a few of those guys who have the money to buy expensive cars and race them.

The last run of cars I did was 9, over 3 classes. The first one started racing in 2007. The last 3 of the 9 are still waiting to be finished. Firman sold more cars over FC and FB and Radon has done half a dozen or so. That is the most of the cars over the last 7 years. That is not even a good one year run for an English builder. Firman sells their basic car all over the world. He could not survive on the US market alone. There are a couple new makes of cars out there as well. VD in its various forms makes up the rest of the market.
I see the point now, but been honest...I don't really get it unless we are talking about pro-drivers or gentleman drivers with engineers helping them out to make the most of the car. Probably they are not making the most of the equipment install in their cars and a cheaper one will do the job as well or even better for a fraction of the price (everyone is free to choose what they want though).
So, the typical driver over there is "our" gentleman driver here a few years ago. What we are trying to change is exactly that, the amount of drivers that can afford buy and race this cars. What scare me the most is what I said before, people want a car with the performance of a F1 car, the price of a middle range stock car and the running cost of a bicycle and...that's IMPOSSIBLE I'm afraid!!
Yeah, your figures regarding the numbers of cars are not very good! from outside everything looked better.

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Endurance racing 'may' be growing in the USA and that would be GOOD. To see where the real class of the show is, read this thread:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...highlight=wolf


We need more people to get interested in Grand Am/ALMS and separate Endurance events like 25 hour of thunderhill.

P.S. If you can build a less expensive WOLF.. good on you!!
Thank you very much rickb99, really useful information. I follow the top level of american motorsport (ALMS, Grand Am, Nascar...) so I know where the "real show" is. Where I have problems is in the middle and the lowest class due to the lack of information.
Unfortunately not to much people can play a role in those shows, but they want to. That's why we are trying to offer that people something "similar" for a fraction of the price. We are talking about different leagues: ALMS...=pro-teams; Wolf, normas...=semi-pro teams or wealthy amateur; our car= middle class racer. The most of the people is in the lower league.
On the other hand, I don't think that endurance racing is growing over there now (at least at top level), the changes is regulations (joining different classes, etc) is a clear indicator that things are not working as well as expected. Top teams are not as involved as they were before (Audi is just focus in WEC, even Rebellion considered stopping their american programme, Dryson...). On the other hand, is the lowest level the one really growing.

Moving on, regarding the 25h of thunderhill...it's an amateur event, it is what it is!! is the amateur endurance race of the year (like Le Mans or Petite Le Mans for pro-drivers/teams). The line should be between pro/semi-pro and amateurs. This race is so popular among amateur drivers/teams that even pro-teams wanna take part on it.
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Old November 3rd, 2013, 6:27 AM   #19
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My point is...if you americans, the first motorsport market, are struggling...you don't wanna know what's going on here...


Yeah, too many Americans don't want to know, but are about to get a rude awakening. Socialized medicine, and higher taxes. While we're at it, you guys want the 13 original colonies back?

But seriously folks, how about converting or building something off of an older F3 car? Carbon fiber tub and all....
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Old November 3rd, 2013, 6:51 AM   #20
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But seriously folks, how about converting or building something off of an older F3 car? Carbon fiber tub and all....
It's not a bad idea, the only problems I see about it:
1-Carbon fibre is quiet expensive. Repair a tub is not an easy task.
2-The average price for a 3 years Formula 3 is approx. $60,000 + conversion
3-After a time, carbon fibre...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1092697046.jpg
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Old November 3rd, 2013, 7:18 AM   #21
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Peat

I believe your focus on endurance racing may be limiting your market. Your car can be used for many outings. It may even be street legal as a 'kit car'. Lights, wipers, horn, muffler & drive the car to the track. And please add plentiful flow-thru cockpit ventilation
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Old November 3rd, 2013, 7:59 AM   #22
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Peat

I believe your focus on endurance racing may be limiting your market. Your car can be used for many outings. It may even be street legal as a 'kit car'. Lights, wipers, horn, muffler & drive the car to the track. And please add plentiful flow-thru cockpit ventilation
Thank you racerdad2. We are focus primarily in endurance races because our products fit quiet well there. Probably you could used the car for other outings (that's what we are doing now, studying different possibilities).
Sometimes is not easy thinking outside the box. We did consider a street legal version of one of our cars. At that time we were focus in the european market. The list of requirements was endless despite we were just trying to homologate a short series of vehicle (50 cars per year). The emissions regulations were really strict, the prices quiet high considering we are a small/medium company ($135,000), 2 vehicles were required for the destructive test...In conclusion we discarded the idea. That's why we didn't consider a street legal version initially, but may be interesting taking a look to the american requirements

P.S: don't worry about ventilation! the cockpit will be like being in 5 stars hotel!!

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Old November 3rd, 2013, 8:20 AM   #23
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Many States make it real easy to license a 'home built' or 'kit car'. There are no requirements for crash testing, etc. I've done several 'cars' over the years from baja bugs to street rods that were deemed street legal, barely. You build your track car & we'll find a way to put it on the street
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Old November 3rd, 2013, 9:00 AM   #24
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It's not a bad idea, the only problems I see about it:
1-Carbon fibre is quiet expensive. Repair a tub is not an easy task.
2-The average price for a 3 years Formula 3 is approx. $60,000 + conversion
3-After a time, carbon fibre...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1092697046.jpg

Well, I guess you don't have to worry about repairing that one...

There's this Canadian guy selling F3 cars on this site that are over in your neck of the woods starting at around 30K.
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Old November 3rd, 2013, 10:32 AM   #25
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I hold this opinion for 2 reasons: 1, young people are not coming into the sport except when their dads are funding them; and two, the cost of racing has made it available only to the upper income earners.
(...)
The only think I have seen lately that reminds me of the days when I started is the Drifting cars. The paddocks are filled with young people and most cars arrive on open trailers.
At 29, I have to think of myself as a bit of an anomaly. But while you have fond memories of people getting to the track with open trailers and cars on the back of a pickup, cheap cars and affordable racing, what I saw when I started racing was the same old folks, now with big pay checks or fat retirement funds, getting to the track in 52ft motorhomes, towing stacker trailers to support one car, with full crews wearing matching outfits. Good on them, but it takes a while to get used to the feeling of parking next to one of these outfits, with the rusty open trailer being towed by the 25 year old Volvo wagon.

Unfortunately, the guys who were doing grassroots racing in the 70s/80s, all seem to have done pretty well for themselves and have escalated the costs year after year. I disagree with you that young people are uninterested, I know many people who would love to race, but even amongst colleagues who make six figure salaries, no one would consider a hobby that costs several thousand dollars a weekend. And no one wants to be the patsy standing in the rain next to their old rusty open trailer.

Anyway - sorry for the rant and the slight off topic!

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Old November 3rd, 2013, 10:46 AM   #26
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Well Fran Hall believes there is a market and has already built and is racing a lmp type car you can see here http://www.gt40s.com/forum/rcr-forum...1114-lmp1.html

Ill email or pm you next week with more information that may actually be of value to you.
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Old November 3rd, 2013, 4:18 PM   #27
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Many States make it real easy to license a 'home built' or 'kit car'. There are no requirements for crash testing, etc. I've done several 'cars' over the years from baja bugs to street rods that were deemed street legal, barely. You build your track car & we'll find a way to put it on the street
That sounds really good! reminds me UK. Here you can make almost anything street legal. The country is plenty of kit-cars and other real "weapons" (single seater, FWD converted to RWD, motorcycle powered cars...). It's simply amazing what you can see just driving around. Here the process is really easy too, the problem comes when you try to do the same in other European countries.
Your off road vehicles sound really interesting. I've been always curious about those cars
Do you know where can I find the requirements to license a "home built or kit car" and which states allow to do that!?

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Well, I guess you don't have to worry about repairing that one...

There's this Canadian guy selling F3 cars on this site that are over in your neck of the woods starting at around 30K.
Yes, you don't have to repair that one initially, I was thinking if you crash. On the other hand 30K is a very competitive price.

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At 29, I have to think of myself as a bit of an anomaly. But while you have fond memories of people getting to the track with open trailers and cars on the back of a pickup, cheap cars and affordable racing, what I saw when I started racing was the same old folks, now with big pay checks or fat retirement funds, getting to the track in 52ft motorhomes, towing stacker trailers to support one car, with full crews wearing matching outfits. Good on them, but it takes a while to get used to the feeling of parking next to one of these outfits, with the rusty open trailer being towed by the 25 year old Volvo wagon.

Unfortunately, the guys who were doing grassroots racing in the 70s/80s, all seem to have done pretty well for themselves and have escalated the costs year after year. I disagree with you that young people are uninterested, I know many people who would love to race, but even amongst colleagues who make six figure salaries, no one would consider a hobby that costs several thousand dollars a weekend. And no one wants to be the patsy standing in the rain next to their old rusty open trailer.

Anyway - sorry for the rant and the slight off topic!
Hi Tiago Santos (by the way, your name sounds brazilian, sorry for the off topic).
Thank you so much for your help, it's not off topic at all. My initial impression was like yours when I started my research. My conclusion was that there are a big group of people in the middle class who have better cars and equipment than some european pro team and the point is that this people are amateur (I mean the american). After talking with some people here that point of view has change a bit. Even though I think it's very useful having all this different points of view and analizing the problem from different perspectives.
Moving on, I would like to know the budget of the young people and what do you need guys. So...I'll appreciate if you could give your opinion.


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Well Fran Hall believes there is a market and has already built and is racing a lmp type car you can see here http://www.gt40s.com/forum/rcr-forum...1114-lmp1.html

Ill email or pm you next week with more information that may actually be of value to you.
Thank you very much KodaBear!! I didn't know the existence of this car! looks awesome and sound even better!!
I'm looking foward receiving your email/pm. Thank you very much, I really appreciate your help!
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Old November 3rd, 2013, 4:57 PM   #28
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Peat.

Go online to each State's Dept of Motor Vehicles to look up Requirements
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Old November 3rd, 2013, 5:07 PM   #29
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Peat.

Go online to each State's Dept of Motor Vehicles to look up Requirements
Cheers racerdad2!!
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Old November 4th, 2013, 5:43 AM   #30
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Very interesting racerdad2...

http://www.rqriley.com/license.htm

http://www.isbe.state.il.us/funding/pdf/FMVSS.pdf

there are some differences between UK and USA but seems to be very straightforward.


P.S: I didn't know that you could register even motorcycle powered cars too. It's quiet similar to UK.

P.S.2: we'll keep focus in racing, but the street legal option is there.

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Old November 4th, 2013, 6:02 AM   #31
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used car prices:

http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/msr.htm
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Old November 4th, 2013, 11:12 AM   #32
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Ok. So I gather you are talking about a "spec" car.

Here is my analysis and it is worth what you are paying for it:

I think racing in general is in a decline. Autosport published an editorial about this just this year.

I hold this opinion for 2 reasons: 1, young people are not coming into the sport except when their dads are funding them; and two, the cost of racing has made it available only to the upper income earners.

When I started racing in the late '60's you could go racing with new cars that cost about half of what was then medium income. This was entry level racing, FV or H Prod. Later the costs rose for FF and FSV to about 100% of medium income for new cars. But you could buy a used car for a lot less and get into the game as well. And there were plenty of people who wanted to go racing. Most of us were in our mid to late 20"s. Now I don't see that population starting or even interested. We still have a few spots where racing is doing decently but the age of the participants is getting to there many are using Social Security money to race.

The only think I have seen lately that reminds me of the days when I started is the Drifting cars. The paddocks are filled with young people and most cars arrive on open trailers.

Add to this a bum economy that has not seen any real growth of disposable income (money to go racing) in over a decade. Now you have the American market for race cars, especially road racing. Ever decreasing population of people who can afford to race or have the physical ability to do it any more.
Right on Steve! That's exactly what's happened. I started karting in the mid 60's. Used to go to SCCA events at IRP to watch. Lots of cars in almost every class. Fun to watch. Next door neighbor had a FV in his garage. Now there are way too many classes and costs are freaking ridiculous. Just a bunch of rich daddy kids and wanker rich bastards mostly.
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Old November 4th, 2013, 12:09 PM   #33
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Sorry to continue off topic, but I think motor sport is just seeing a shift away from cars. Cars are appliances now. They have lost their romance. People dread their commute. Motorcycles however remain rather romantic. You ride them for pleasure, not just for transportation. On top of that, motorcycle technology is extremely advanced for a given price point. An absolutely wicked racing motorcycle can be had for 15-thousand dollars. Even better, that bike can likely be ridden to the race track or requires a minimal towing setup. You can't get a tow vehicle capable of trailering your 80-thousand dollar open wheel car to the track for that price. The income level to cost of participation observation is absolutely correct. The demographic has just moved to motorcycles where it is affordable still. The amount of youth around the two-wheel paddock is very strong. Sadly, even karting has gone ballistic on expenses. A modern Italian racing kart with an engine will cost you 10-thousand dollars. That's insane for something that doesn't even have real suspension.
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Old November 4th, 2013, 12:32 PM   #34
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Sorry to continue off topic, but I think motor sport is just seeing a shift away from cars. Cars are appliances now. They have lost their romance. People dread their commute. Motorcycles however remain rather romantic. You ride them for pleasure, not just for transportation. On top of that, motorcycle technology is extremely advanced for a given price point. An absolutely wicked racing motorcycle can be had for 15-thousand dollars. Even better, that bike can likely be ridden to the race track or requires a minimal towing setup. You can't get a tow vehicle capable of trailering your 80-thousand dollar open wheel car to the track for that price. The income level to cost of participation observation is absolutely correct. The demographic has just moved to motorcycles where it is affordable still. The amount of youth around the two-wheel paddock is very strong. Sadly, even karting has gone ballistic on expenses. A modern Italian racing kart with an engine will cost you 10-thousand dollars. That's insane for something that doesn't even have real suspension.
Chris I'd disagree with that completely. The number of power sports, and motorcycle outfits in my area that have gone belly up is just as horrific as it has been with automobiles. Willow springs raceway who used to hold very large and popular monthly motorcycle road races ended that series recently because of a lack of participation. Read here for and article. http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/...e-immediately/

That just the truth, the facts do not reflect your thoughts on a switch to motorcycles, and yes I know those of you who love motorcycles don't want to hear it.

The fact is the economy is trash and most people have little disposable income, motorcycles, race cars, road cars, bicycles, refrigerators, computers, toys, everything is struggling in the economy. the future is uncertain and may be getting even worse,so they are unwilling to spend what money they do have on silly things like racing.

Second the SCCA is a antiquated organization, before the economic collapse you would find a paddock full of younger people running NaSA events (myself included). even now although the paddocks are not full there are a lot of youger people participating in NASA. Don't equate a lack in fresh blood in SCCA as being endemic to auto racing in general.
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Old November 4th, 2013, 1:40 PM   #35
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Chris I'd disagree with that completely. The number of power sports, and motorcycle outfits in my area that have gone belly up is just as horrific as it has been with automobiles. Willow springs raceway who used to hold very large and popular monthly motorcycle road races ended that series recently because of a lack of participation. Read here for and article. http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/...e-immediately/

That just the truth, the facts do not reflect your thoughts on a switch to motorcycles, and yes I know those of you who love motorcycles don't want to hear it.

The fact is the economy is trash and most people have little disposable income, motorcycles, race cars, road cars, bicycles, refrigerators, computers, toys, everything is struggling in the economy. the future is uncertain and may be getting even worse,so they are unwilling to spend what money they do have on silly things like racing.

Second the SCCA is a antiquated organization, before the economic collapse you would find a paddock full of younger people running NaSA events (myself included). even now although the paddocks are not full there are a lot of youger people participating in NASA. Don't equate a lack in fresh blood in SCCA as being endemic to auto racing in general.
The fact that the economy comes and goes is not universal to the premise or conclusion that participation rates rise and fall in conjunction. There are too many variables to make conclusions based upon such associations.

I simply evaluated, and slightly unscientifically so, the current groups who subscribe to the various forms of motorsport. My evaluation, having attended several events of the two variants I discussed at length, has shown that younger populations continue to go motorcyle racing. In some cases motorcycles may draw potential participants away from auto racing. In comparison, open wheel cars are quickly becoming fodder for the rich. Simply put, if I am passionate about racing, there is a much larger chance I can afford to do it on a motorcycle than a race car. Thus I transfer my passion to and achievable outlet. I know more than a few people my age (27) who have specifically mentioned to me that motorcycles, in one form or another, are their choice of motor sport as a result of automobile racing being well outside of their income capabilities. Never did I imply that motorcycle racing was growing. There are two obvious ailments that are endemic to auto racing in general. The increasing average age of the group means that the participants are increasingly dead or too old to attend. Secondly, the average cost of entry is so inflated that participation is not possible.
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Old November 4th, 2013, 7:58 PM   #36
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Simply put, if I am passionate about racing, there is a much larger chance I can afford to do it on a motorcycle than a race car.
Until you crash of course. I'm talking about the physical injury, not bike repair (which is cheap).

I went to an amateur bike race 2 years ago to get the feel for the club and see if I wanted to do it. A few crashes at that event, one HARD into the wall, and one requiring a life flight made up my mind!

Anyway, back on topic ... it's a misnomer to call this thing an LMP1 car. It can't be built for that cheap. What we're really talking about is a SR. For $80k I could see that.

Is there interest? Well, new Radicals are still being sold, so I think there is interest. But the field has to be seeded. You're not going to just advertise them and then have the buyers come out of the woodwork.
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Old November 5th, 2013, 1:51 AM   #37
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Now I don't see that population starting or even interested. We still have a few spots where racing is doing decently but the age of the participants is getting to there many are using Social Security money to race.
You're correct for the most part, but I have a feeling you're around SCCA for too long. They have a gap of a generation or two, and that's why you can't see kids there. Those young kids you're missing are at .... NASA. With different cars, a bit of different racing, but they are there. Bigger topic, not going to start it here.

On the LMP1 style car for 81k: I would never reply to this, but I just priced few components (Katech engine, Xtrac tranny, etc) for an LMPC car (cost $375k if you wanted to buy one), and I'm going to tell you, all those things minus body work and monocoque will cost about $130k. Once you get the bodywork and monocoque, you will have to assemble it. Katech LS3 engine alone is 18k. Bare motor. So no, you're not associated with any company that can build an LMP1 for 54K. You're like me, simply dreaming, except I did check the prices
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Old November 5th, 2013, 1:17 PM   #38
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Right on Steve! That's exactly what's happened. I started karting in the mid 60's. Used to go to SCCA events at IRP to watch. Lots of cars in almost every class. Fun to watch. Next door neighbor had a FV in his garage. Now there are way too many classes and costs are freaking ridiculous. Just a bunch of rich daddy kids and wanker rich bastards mostly.

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Originally Posted by Chris Livengood View Post
Sorry to continue off topic, but I think motor sport is just seeing a shift away from cars. Cars are appliances now. They have lost their romance. People dread their commute. Motorcycles however remain rather romantic. You ride them for pleasure, not just for transportation. On top of that, motorcycle technology is extremely advanced for a given price point. An absolutely wicked racing motorcycle can be had for 15-thousand dollars. Even better, that bike can likely be ridden to the race track or requires a minimal towing setup. You can't get a tow vehicle capable of trailering your 80-thousand dollar open wheel car to the track for that price. The income level to cost of participation observation is absolutely correct. The demographic has just moved to motorcycles where it is affordable still. The amount of youth around the two-wheel paddock is very strong. Sadly, even karting has gone ballistic on expenses. A modern Italian racing kart with an engine will cost you 10-thousand dollars. That's insane for something that doesn't even have real suspension.
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Originally Posted by KodaBear View Post
Chris I'd disagree with that completely. The number of power sports, and motorcycle outfits in my area that have gone belly up is just as horrific as it has been with automobiles. Willow springs raceway who used to hold very large and popular monthly motorcycle road races ended that series recently because of a lack of participation. Read here for and article. http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/...e-immediately/

That just the truth, the facts do not reflect your thoughts on a switch to motorcycles, and yes I know those of you who love motorcycles don't want to hear it.

The fact is the economy is trash and most people have little disposable income, motorcycles, race cars, road cars, bicycles, refrigerators, computers, toys, everything is struggling in the economy. the future is uncertain and may be getting even worse,so they are unwilling to spend what money they do have on silly things like racing.

Second the SCCA is a antiquated organization, before the economic collapse you would find a paddock full of younger people running NaSA events (myself included). even now although the paddocks are not full there are a lot of youger people participating in NASA. Don't equate a lack in fresh blood in SCCA as being endemic to auto racing in general.
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Originally Posted by Chris Livengood View Post
The fact that the economy comes and goes is not universal to the premise or conclusion that participation rates rise and fall in conjunction. There are too many variables to make conclusions based upon such associations.

I simply evaluated, and slightly unscientifically so, the current groups who subscribe to the various forms of motorsport. My evaluation, having attended several events of the two variants I discussed at length, has shown that younger populations continue to go motorcyle racing. In some cases motorcycles may draw potential participants away from auto racing. In comparison, open wheel cars are quickly becoming fodder for the rich. Simply put, if I am passionate about racing, there is a much larger chance I can afford to do it on a motorcycle than a race car. Thus I transfer my passion to and achievable outlet. I know more than a few people my age (27) who have specifically mentioned to me that motorcycles, in one form or another, are their choice of motor sport as a result of automobile racing being well outside of their income capabilities. Never did I imply that motorcycle racing was growing. There are two obvious ailments that are endemic to auto racing in general. The increasing average age of the group means that the participants are increasingly dead or too old to attend. Secondly, the average cost of entry is so inflated that participation is not possible.
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Until you crash of course. I'm talking about the physical injury, not bike repair (which is cheap).

I went to an amateur bike race 2 years ago to get the feel for the club and see if I wanted to do it. A few crashes at that event, one HARD into the wall, and one requiring a life flight made up my mind!

Anyway, back on topic ... it's a misnomer to call this thing an LMP1 car. It can't be built for that cheap. What we're really talking about is a SR. For $80k I could see that.

Is there interest? Well, new Radicals are still being sold, so I think there is interest. But the field has to be seeded. You're not going to just advertise them and then have the buyers come out of the woodwork.
Thank you all for sharing your opinion. You all have been talking about income capabilities and people jumping to motorcycles racing due to the prohibited prices of car racing. Could you tell me please, more or less, the average budget of a middle class racer!? May be interesting a budget comparison between motorcycle and car racing.

mousecatcher I decided to call it LMP1 just because it has a closed cockpit and the idea is having a "similar" bodywork (well something in between LMP1, group C and DP, not clear yet), that's where LMP1 comes from. That's the only comparable point between our car and a LMP1, but I agree with you. It's more in the line of a SR.
Thank you for your final advice, of course that's not my intention. This is just a kind of marketing research. If enough people think that might be interesting we'll go ahead: design, build and test a prototype and finally take part in some races. Once all the process finish, we'll be able to offer our product.

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You're correct for the most part, but I have a feeling you're around SCCA for too long. They have a gap of a generation or two, and that's why you can't see kids there. Those young kids you're missing are at .... NASA. With different cars, a bit of different racing, but they are there. Bigger topic, not going to start it here.

On the LMP1 style car for 81k: I would never reply to this, but I just priced few components (Katech engine, Xtrac tranny, etc) for an LMPC car (cost $375k if you wanted to buy one), and I'm going to tell you, all those things minus body work and monocoque will cost about $130k. Once you get the bodywork and monocoque, you will have to assemble it. Katech LS3 engine alone is 18k. Bare motor. So no, you're not associated with any company that can build an LMP1 for 54K. You're like me, simply dreaming, except I did check the prices
Thank you very much awegrzyn. I'll appreciate if you could give me a short explanation on why are they at NASA, what kind of cars, what kind of racing...

Moving on, I'm not talking about a LMP1 car literally for that price. That's crazy, impossible!! and I have said that a couple of times!! on the other hand, I did say LMP1 style car!We have been talking about middle class racers and that's the target! why!? because the most of the people who is passionate about motorsport is in that group. So we need something that suit them. This means a fast car (that's proportional to the budget), easy to maintain, fun to drive...something cost effective.
According to our estimations, such a car will be approx. in the same times than a GT car, which is pretty good (from my point of view) considering the purchase price and the running cost (a fraction of the cost of a GT).
So, do you really think I was talking about a real LMP1 now!?

On the other hand, if you wanna talk about real numbers...you need a lot more than 130K (even without monocoque) for a LMP1. That's not even half of what a LMP2 cost (new, $440,000 US chassis+$75,000 engine), but that's approximately the price of a competitive LMP3/CN from 2010!? A DP will be arround $240K!? (second hand from 2008!?)

Once again, quoting myself..."people want a car with the performance of a F1 car, the price of a middle range stock car and the running cost of a bicycle and...that's IMPOSSIBLE I'm afraid!!"

Last edited by peat; November 5th, 2013 at 3:38 PM.
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Old November 5th, 2013, 3:38 PM   #39
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Peat

Your enclosed cockpit car may find a following. Inherantly safer than open cockpit IF well engineered with proper windshield. There are 'support crews' (wives) that would support your endeavor.
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Old November 5th, 2013, 11:59 PM   #40
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Quote: Could you tell me please, more or less, the average budget of a middle class racer!?

Answer: Way more than it should be! And way out of reach for the "average" person.
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