Let's fold FST into FV

[dd46637]

We have not discussed whether to allow cutting the shock towers off, but most likely it will have to remain stock - at least for the moment.

You may wish to reconsider that. The front shocks on a stock BJ beam do not have an upper eye. There is a simple outboard shock setup that will allow use of what everyone already has.

[BLS]

They hold camber in a turn.

Jim, I know the camber is adjustable and FST allows the replacement of the adjuster to dial in the negative camber. Are you saying the torsion arms do not flex as much as the LP torsion arms?

[sracing]

As indicated in last month's Conf call minutes, we are thinking that the BJ beam will be an 'in toto' change for disc brakes. BJ Beam.. disc brakes, 4 bolt (wider) wheels, etc. We have not discussed whether to allow cutting the shock towers off, but most likely it will have to remain stock - at least for the moment.
Steve, FV80

Good. Going down an aftermarket conversion path to rotors with LP beam etc. Would just require more testing and limited vendors, etc.

I would really allow cutting off the shock towers though. Aside from them being ugly, it is really a very simple job. Then just add a fabricated shock pick-up. (Available from us, but easy to do at home.) Probably 1/2 of the FST's are running this way with success. (The others are inboard shocks.) Considering the things you have to do to any beam. (remove steering mounts, sway bar, spring pack, ride height adj, etc. cutting off towers doesn't add much and drops the weight.

[Bill Bonow]

You may wish to reconsider that.

I don't think they should. The "moose antlers" will help shy people away from use. As Steve said, "to ALLOW them, but RECOMMEND against them". Not cutting them off will act as a BJ deturant. Sort of a "beating with the ugly stick".

[Steve Davis]

I don't think they should. The "moose antlers" will help shy people away from use. As Steve said, "to ALLOW them, but RECOMMEND against them". Not cutting them off will act as a BJ deturant. Sort of a "beating with the ugly stick".

My statement was for LP conversion kits - not the shock towers.
Steve, FV80

[SamF]

Sarcasm, most certainly.

Who me?

I forgot the back end of the car, so the buggy shop sells a rear disc brake kit for swing axle, thru 67. Without emergency brake. Kit includes rotors, calipers, pads, mount brackets, and hardware kit for $227.69 and free shipping to boot.

http://www.appletreeauto.com/DISC-BR...EAR-22-2862-0/

Jim if I do not have a core engine what does a “new” 1600 engine include, as far a new out of the box parts, and what would it cost?

[Bill Bonow]

Are you saying the torsion arms do not flex as much as the LP torsion arms?

Much thicker, less flex

[grapefarmeral]

All this just when I picked up an old Ammco brake shoe grinder.....

[Bill Bonow]

Steve,

Sorry about the error on the quote, but still think on FV the BJ towers should stay (initially).

[sracing]

Jim, I know the camber is adjustable and FST allows the replacement of the adjuster to dial in the negative camber. Are you saying the torsion arms do not flex as much as the LP torsion arms?

As Bill said, but a similar issue with the Link pins and shims. In a corner you lose lots of camber there (and they need periodic adjusting and replacing.) Ball joints don't have that problem and adjusting camber takes about 1 minute per wheel depending upon how close your cresent wrench is.

[sracing]

Jim if I do not have a core engine what does a “new” 1600 engine include, as far a new out of the box parts, and what would it cost?

There are a couple options (rod type stock, I-beam, H-beam, sand seal kits, elephant foot adjusters. etc.) No longevity or performance advantages since min weights are the same. But under ~$4200 and no more than $4600. (All new except for rocker arms ) With case prices it might go up another $100.

Stainless Steel Manley valves.
Chromoly retainers
Chromoly studs.
Counterbalanced Scat crank.
Dry sump pump.
12lb flywheel with 8 dowels.
Total Seal Gapless ring set.
Chromoly gland nut.
Intake
Prepped carb
Heads ported to current specs.
plus more..
Dynoed WITH dyno sheets.

While the above are better parts than most Vee stuff, they in fact cost less. For example SCAT rods are already balanced within about .2 gram when we get them. Same with cranks, etc.

Ready to drop in. I reserve the right to change this price at any time.
Next year they will be $12000.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Steve -

My dad and I have spent some time lately looking at what it would take to put disk brakes on FV's. We don't like any of the standard off the shelf kits that are on the market. We have been looking at other options, like using some Mazda hubs, ect. I don't have much to report on yet, but we are thinking about simple and effective ways of doing it.

We can talk at the runoffs about it in more detail, or even on the next committee meeting phone call. But I want to make sure we talk a bit before the momentum gets too strong in one direction or the other in choosing a plan for disc brakes.

Michael

[sracing]

A little off thread and I probably posted before... but..

I get a kick out of the "regional", "national", $3000 and above $7500 engines... (and their performance)

As you know we have a couple pretty good dynos here that collect more info than one would even bother to read through. Over the years many Vee guys have dyno'ed here (chassis and/or engine.) I have seen $3000 engines outperform $7000 dollar ones and vis versa. Brad Stout or Mike V, (just as an example) could sell a 52 HP engine for $7000 and Joe Schmuck has difficulty selling his 59HP engine for $2500.

When the Run-offs were are Mid-O, several people stopped here for a final chassis run and tune check. (Maybe you were one?) We saw lots of HP/Torque results that didn't really compare well with the price of the engine.

[Stan Clayton]

I vote for tires that are hard as a rock and will last for ever...

Spec Miatas run on a rock-hard spec 15" tire. And since it's 7" wide it would be less dorky looking than our bicycle tires...

[SamF]

Steve -

My dad and I have spent some time lately looking at what it would take to put disk brakes on FV's. We don't like any of the standard off the shelf kits that are on the market. We have been looking at other options, like using some Mazda hubs, ect. I don't have much to report on yet, but we are thinking about simple and effective ways of doing it.

We can talk at the runoffs about it in more detail, or even on the next committee meeting phone call. But I want to make sure we talk a bit before the momentum gets too strong in one direction or the other in choosing a plan for disc brakes.

Michael

Michael,

At Road America this weekend 12 FSTs will once again confirm that the very inexpensive off the shelf buggy brake kits work and work well. These brake kits are available for many suppliers and they work. Why complicate things where there are readily available and inexpensive bolt on parts available? Just thinking out loud.

[sracing]

We have been looking at other options, like using some Mazda hubs, ect. I don't have much to report on yet, but we are thinking about simple and effective ways of doing it.

Please Mike.. KISS. (Keep it simple). A tested, inexpensive package with plenty of availability exists NOW. IMO taking a Frankenstein path is completely wrong.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Michael,

At Road America this weekend 12 FSTs will once again confirm that the very inexpensive off the shelf buggy brake kits work and work well. These brake kits are available for many suppliers and they work. Why complicate things where there are readily available and inexpensive bolt on parts available? Just thinking out loud.

There are plenty of "off the shelf kits" that work well with a four bolt aftermarket wheel. A big part of the conversion cost of disc brakes is the wheels. I am trying to find a nice, neat, simple approach that doesn't require new wheels. There are no good disc brake kits that will still allow us to use the wheels we have.

As an example, we have been in touch with a local wheel manufacturer that will make new centers for or existing wheels. We could cut out the centers, and they will weld in new 4 bolt ones for about $50. Just one example, but we are looking at all the options right now.

[Stan Clayton]

There are no good disc brake kits that will still allow us to use the wheels we have.

What about these from JBug? They all appear to fit the wide-5 wheels. Or am I missing something?

[sracing]

As an example, we have been in touch with a local wheel manufacturer that will make new centers for or existing wheels. We could cut out the centers, and they will weld in new 4 bolt ones for about $50. Just one example, but we are looking at all the options right now.

Mike, I have had wheels custom made from 4 different manufactures. They will do most any bolt pattern, offset, etc in steel for $50 in quantity. (Note that shipping is a big piece of prices on wheels) I now stick with Bassett since they have been the fastest to ship. Wheels are the least of the problem with most any setup. The ONLY issue is stocking. In FST we haven't bent many wheels so I don't want to order and store several different vendors and colors of them. So I have about 12 or 16 in stock at any point in time, (in one color) Since FST allows the 4 bolt in 4" or 100mm, that is what we use. (I think EVERY FST is using the 4" pattern.)

[Daryl DeArman]

Re: disc brake conversion options

Is it worth considering the availability of aftermarket pad support for the chosen caliper?

Wouldn't it be desirable to select a caliper/rotor combination where the FMSI number of the pad has great aftermarket support?

[SamF]

. In FST we haven't bent many wheels so I don't want to order and store several different vendors and colors of them. So I have about 12 or 16 in stock at any point in time, (in one color)

Jim is there any correlation with the Hoosier Spec tire that last a full season and the lack of bent wheels??
I guess not, but the economical spec tire does fit very well on low-priced wheel, and then just to make life even easer they bolt directly to the low-cost bolt on buggy disk break kits. Or am I again missing the point again of saving money by having 1 set of tires that last for the season and $15 dollar brake pads that last several seasons? This is about keeping cost down so I can afford as many ACVW race weekend as possible with a very limited budget isn’t it?

[Tiago Santos]

Would using the "stock" 4.5" wide steelies (with the vw 4 bolt pattern) be a problem?

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails....-111-601-025-G

[jim murphy]

That $25k is a brand new car. A converted F5 is much less. Probably not much different than the total cost of a FST conversion (including what you sell off). And then you have $900 drivetrains well into the future.

And it has many advantages (my previous post) over the FV along with a better/safer (per Stan above) chassis. For a F600 conversion = one F500 roller (minus all 2 stroke stuff) about $3k, conversion cost about $5K, used MC drivetrain about $1K (little high). We are now at $9K. Then you think about options of data logger, etc, let's guess this one to be $3k. We arrive at a total of $12K, less than 1/2 the cost of a new F600. All new technology for this price - a big no brainer!!

KEEP IGNORING THE WRITING ON THE WALL AND YOU BECOME IRRELEVENT.

Jim

[Tiago Santos]

Jim - while I agree that the F600s look bad ass and I'm sure it'll be a tempting class for many, let's not get ahead of ourselves. There are plenty of other classes that are awesome on paper and didn't really take off as expected. Things change pretty fast, and good intentions go to hell in a flash.

While I think $25k is a great deal for such a car, I don't have 25 grand to buy a car with. I also don't have the time or the space to do a conversion, so that's that for me. Many people getting into racing will also not want to spend that much money for an "entry level" class or have the skills or patience to convert an F500. If I had $25k to buy a car, would I buy a brand new car from a class that's unproven, or a very competitive FF or FC?

All that said, best of luck to you guys, but I hope we can keep the F600s out of the rest of this discussion. If you feel like discussing anything I said, please PM me

[rgu]

The last Pocono NE national I went to (goes back a bit!!) there were about 15 vees and 5 500’s. I stood where the cars came onto the tri oval from the infield. There was a goodly bump there. As the race progressed the vees all stayed pretty consistent. They were disturbed by the bump but it was about the same each lap because their shocks and suspension were working. The 500’s kept getting worse with air under the wheels often. One by one each 500 either broke something or lost control and ended up against the wall. None were running at the end.

I think this reflects the bias those posting here.

[jim murphy]

Just wait until you have 40 F600's all competing for a runoffs win. Those $900 engines will no longer get the job done. A lot of what you are paying for in FV engine is the years of knowledge and tweaking that has gone into squeezing every bit of HP out of them. That's the nature of development. Which is also the driver of costs in racing. Your $900 engines will soon become $2000 engines when someone spends a season playing on the dyno and figures out how to get another 3-4HP. Then the following season, someone will figure something else out, and the new hot trick will be worth an extra $500....and so it goes. The circle of life. Or what happens when guys start buying 5 of them to sort them on the dyno?

All classes start out with the intention of being cheap. No one sits down and says, hey, I'm going to make this class and make it using expensive parts. It's the competition and development that makes it expensive. Rules can be written to try and limit it, but in the end, there is no stopping price creep in any competitive series. It just eventually reaches a point where a reset is in order.

Some comments that will change somewhat you are saying:

1. There are millions of these drivetrains (remember that the transmission is built-in)
sold every year - this ALONE will keep the prices down.
2. These are used in MC racing and the bike makers are already maxing them out;
two different MC engine builders have said that it is a waste of time to eke out 1 or 2 HP because it will take forever and will not show up on the track as they have already tried all the tricks.
3. Every two years the MC makers upgrade the drivetrains - a tweak here, a tweak there. You just spent a ton of money on maxing out your motor and within two years a stronger (slightly) motor will be made - and sold for a lot less than what you just spent.
4. Has the latest technology (or close to it) for the lowest dollar - no other engine in all of road racing can come close to this price model.

The MC is the choice of many oval track classes and our own FB and DSR classes.

Please keep in mind that the YOUNGER GENERATION IS THE DECISION MAKER AS TO WHETHER YOUR CLASS WILL SURVIVE OR FLOURISH. They are very sensitive to using the latest technology and are outright disdainful of anyone who does not use
the latest and greatest. One youngster told me to my face that "anyone who spends thousands of dollars on 50 year old technology must be out of their f------ minds and I don't want any part of it". This is your market that you are trying to appeal to.

Start writing your letters to the CRB or you don't count.

Jim

[jim murphy]

Jim - while I agree that the F600s look bad ass and I'm sure it'll be a tempting class for many, let's not get ahead of ourselves. There are plenty of other classes that are awesome on paper and didn't really take off as expected. Things change pretty fast, and good intentions go to hell in a flash.

While I think $25k is a great deal for such a car, I don't have 25 grand to buy a car with. I also don't have the time or the space to do a conversion, so that's that for me. Many people getting into racing will also not want to spend that much money for an "entry level" class or have the skills or patience to convert an F500. If I had $25k to buy a car, would I buy a brand new car from a class that's unproven, or a very competitive FF or FC?

All that said, best of luck to you guys, but I hope we can keep the F600s out of the rest of this discussion. If you feel like discussing anything I said, please PM me

What I am trying to say (using F600 as an example) - UPGRADE OR DIE

Enough said - I am out of here.

Jim

[Mark Filip]

Aside from the weight issue (BJ heavier with the shock towers). There is an advantage. They hold camber in a turn. . Disc brakes work great. but whether they are a performance advantage (on a Vee) or not is arguable. $15 vs. $150 for brakes is an advantage

How long do the brake pads last Jim?


This is my thought

Keep 2 classes and work together to promote both.

FV1200 and FV1600

FV1600 is current FST and leave it alone these people will not move to change current car unless its for the better and I don't think they should have to change.

FV1200 in current FV with a 2-5 year transition to allow same BJ beam, disc brakes, steering rack and run a newer 4 bolt VW steel wheel. Tire option can be left alone or run a spec tire. raise weight to 1050lbs if you use the BJ beam, disc brakes and keep at 1025 if your using drums and LP beam until the transition is over the ever FV1200 goes to 1050.

Then if you choose to move up to FV1600 Buy a engine and wheels if FV1200 is stronger in your region you can run a 1200 with steel wheels.

The names should be something like this to make it clear we are 1 group of FV and we work together.

Vintage people will want FV wide five wheels and our beams so they won't be worthless and our engines will remain valuable as there still is a 1200 class. If we were forced to move to FST our 1200 engines would not be valuable.

There is no need to put disc brakes on a LP beam it makes more sense to use a VW beam with VW brakes that is already used by FST this way making a jump up or down is easier.

[Bill Bonow]

How long do the brake pads last Jim?

Hope Jim won't mind if I jump in on this. Most guys change them out after 3 years which equates to (15) double regional weekends or about (30) hours of track time.

I'm hooked on OEM stock Varga pads I got from CB Performance. I think they were actually $17.00 per axle set.

We tried various brands and compounds, but with 11" rotors, we always end up right back with stock pads.

Mark,

Stan's CRB letter aside, I think that your analysis is about how it is going to work out. When the time starts and stops, who knows. We called the class FST because a tech guy at Mid-Ohio suggested it when we ran FS and called the cars Formula First. It seemed like a good fit. FV 1600 fits as well

[Amon]

Bill:

I like FV1600 because it groups us together and gives the appearance of unity
when dealing with the issue's at hand.

Mark

[sracing]

Jim is there any correlation with the Hoosier Spec tire that last a full season and the lack of bent wheels??

Got me . Admittedly we haven't had to many mishaps out there so only a few have been bent. Maybe the real culprit for bending wheels is the mounting guys? The less you change tires the less the wheels get bent?

How long do the brake pads last Jim?

Don't know, never changed one. No, actually we change them after a season (12+ races) and the fronts are about 1/2 gone and the rears less than 1/3 gone. At the price and ease of replacement it isn't worth stretching their life. A couple people have tried an "exotic" pad, but they all game back with no positive recommendation on them.

Keep 2 classes and work together to promote both.

Sounds like a plan to me.

FV1200 in current FV with a 2-5 year transition to allow same BJ beam, disc brakes, steering rack and run a newer 4 bolt VW steel wheel..........

Well, I guess there are a lot of ways to do it, but I think the simplest is just a 4 or 5 year in total deal. In the middle of slow growth transitions it would be a mess.

[Mark Filip]

Hope Jim won't mind if I jump in on this. Most guys change them out after 3 years which equates to (15) double regional weekends or about (30) hours of track time.

I'm hooked on OEM stock Varga pads I got from CB Performance. I think they were actually $17.00 per axle set.

We tried various brands and compounds, but with 11" rotors, we always end up right back with stock pads.

Mark,

Stan's CRB letter aside, I think that your analysis is about how it is going to work out. When the time starts and stops, who knows. We called the class FST because a tech guy at Mid-Ohio suggested it when we ran FS and called the cars Formula First. It seemed like a good fit. FV 1600 fits as well

Thanks for the info on the brakes Bill

I just think it's only hurting both classes unless we come up with a way to work together and if we had 20+ cars in ea. class at a event we would get our own run group for sure.

[sracing]

if we had 20+ cars in ea. class at a event we would get our own run group for sure.

If we had 20 cars in each class, we wouldn't need the SCCA, We could run our own events.. I have been to events recently where there weren't much more than 40 cars..

[Bill Bonow]

Thanks for the info on the brakes Bill

Your welcome

I just think it's only hurting both classes unless we come up with a way to work together and if we had 20+ cars in ea. class at a event we would get our own run group for sure.

I 100% agree that the two need to work together. I know you have not ran with an FST yet, but FV and FST really do play nice together. We can disagree on who is hurting who, but the simple fact remains that we need to work together or nobody is going to win in the long run.

[Bill Bonow]

Jim's post reminded me:

I think one thing to point out about the SCCA FST entry numbers, just like F1600/f2000, we don't use SCCA exclusively. Others are out there and are looking to sanction our events and we've done it more than once in the FST series.

Get 20 FV and FST cars together and we can go have all the events we want, SCCA or not.

[Mark Filip]

Your welcome



I 100% agree that the two need to work together. I know you have not ran with an FST yet, but FV and FST really do play nice together. We can disagree on who is hurting who, but the simple fact remains that we need to work together or nobody is going to win in the long run.

I was at the Glen when Dennis Richardson made his first run so I was able to check out his car.

[sracing]

I just think it's only hurting both classes unless we come up with a way to work together

I really don't think that is true. Most all of the FST guys are NOT deserters of the FV class, they are new entries. We already play well with FV cars on the track. We have done several events where there we only 2-4 FV's. Our entries (10-12 cars) insured that we (FV and FST) had our own race group. Otherwise the Vees would have had to play somewhere else. Isn't that a positive? So that helped the Vees. For the same reasons FV hasn't hurt FST in any way that I know of.

I say leave everything alone re: FV and FST. If you are worried about parts shortages in FV, then look to a 5 year plan to go to an FST package. If you are not worried, just keep running FV. However PROMOTION of either/both is in the best interests of us all.

We (SR) promote and support both classes (including vintage). When we get calls from Podunk, we advise them that FST might not be the best option in their case. If their from a hot FST area, we give them both options. Either path and they will end up racing in the same group.

[Daryl DeArman]

Some comments that will change somewhat you are saying:

1. There are millions of these drivetrains (remember that the transmission is built-in)
sold every year - this ALONE will keep the prices down.

Embellish too much and you'll lose even those that love the concept. When you are wearing your promotional hat and embellish that much about something I know is obviously misleading, I wonder what things I don't know about are being embellished.

There probably aren't even 40,000 600cc bikes sold every year in NA.

http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcyc...statistics.htm

[Mark Filip]

I really don't think that is true. Most all of the FST guys are NOT deserters of the FV class, they are new entries. We already play well with FV cars on the track. We have done several events where there we only 2-4 FV's. Our entries (10-12 cars) insured that we (FV and FST) had our own race group. Otherwise the Vees would have had to play somewhere else. Isn't that a positive? So that helped the Vees. For the same reasons FV hasn't hurt FST in any way that I know of.

I say leave everything alone re: FV and FST. If you are worried about parts shortages in FV, then look to a 5 year plan to go to an FST package. If you are not worried, just keep running FV. However PROMOTION of either/both is in the best interests of us all.

We (SR) promote and support both classes (including vintage). When we get calls from Podunk, we advise them that FST might not be the best option in their case. If their from a hot FST area, we give them both options. Either path and they will end up racing in the same group.

Jim I appreciate the fact that you love to disagree with everyone

They absolutely hurt each other and this is why.

I like FST but I will never make a change because of the amount of cars running FST. I know there is a list of all kinds of car that have been converted, converted back and in process of being built (which I don't see why someone of these cars take forever to complete conversions) but I'm only concerned with the current cars racing and let's face it there are not many, not bad in 1 little area of the country but that will not make me change. So FV is keeping me from FST, which is hurting the growth of FST whould you agree? I'm sure you won't. I'm also sure that I'm not the only one who would make this choice.

I know you say most FST people are new and FST does not take form FV but this is false. Yes most may be new but not all. I can name a few local racers that decided to give FST a try and I wish them the best, but this did take away from FV would you agree? I'm sure you won't.

What I suggested totally leaves FST alone, but what it does do is allow the FV racer to have more of a choice and may lead them closer to FST.

We both agree they play nice together so what's wrong with FV1200 and FV1600 this way there still is a choice for people if there are no 1600s to race with or the other way around. Some regions may stay strong with 1200s some may change and 1600s will become strong is areas where there are none now.

You also have this all or nothing idea and that won't work. If we just said ok everyone.... All your extra beams, spare engines, intakes, carburetors, gearboxes just throw those out because you need this now... Everyone will resist and no change just like its been.

And I know people keep talking about young guns in the class and no young racer wants to race a FV. Who cares? Really I think FV is more of a real persons race car not a place for some young kid with daddy's money to come and race. Yes I think it's great that we have some younger guys that do it but they are not the spoiled kid. That's what made me leave karting I was sick of the young conceded prick winning races because daddy spend 5k on his 125cc shifter engine. I'm a real person with a real job, I work on my own car, I don't have a huge crew of monkeys doing everything for me and my car gets to the track when I get there. The whole reason I was so thrilled to race FV is because everyone around me is like me and we need to promote the classes as that "real people, real jobs, real racing"

We need to work together to show people they can buy a car that's been sitting around for years for next to nothing and take that car and have the possibility of running in not 1 but 2 classes.

[jim murphy]

Embellish too much and you'll lose even those that love the concept. When you are wearing your promotional hat and embellish that much about something I know is obviously misleading, I wonder what things I don't know about are being embellished.

There probably aren't even 40,000 600cc bikes sold every year in NA.

http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcyc...statistics.htm

Sorry, picked off the wrong statistic which was for worldwide sales of all MC's.
In the US, the Motorcycle Industry Council (MIC) reports retail sales of 452,386 motorcycles for 2012. I hope that this makes it more clear.
The point that I was trying to make is that MC's have huge numbers, whatever they may be, while FV race parts are far, far lower in number. Thus, high volume keeps the price down. AND, there are no more FV parts being made by VW.

Jim