What Does FV need for the future?"

[Steve Bamford]

All the FST talk is getting annoying, with the most annoying part being the notion that FST is so much cheaper.

All classes start out with the intent of being cheap. It's the competition that starts to raise the expense. Of course FST is cheaper now - there isn't much competiton. What do you think will happen when reputable engine builders start making FST engines? Or how about when there is a Runoffs field of 30? We'll be right back here again complaining about how expensive it is.

What I find ironic is those pushing the FST are doing so with a major selling point being the cost....yet the more they lure into the class, the more expensive it will become.

If that didn't piss some people off this part will...Racing isn't easy. Nor is it cheap. Simply put its not a sport for everybody. We should not be dumbing down the class with things like added weight so average joe can feel competitive. Why should those who go through the effort of staying in shape, lightening things as much as possible, ect., be penalized for those not wanting to work for something? It's like kids soccer games not keeping score so there is no winner or looser. We should be finding more competitive people willing to put effort into a racing program then trying to attract the "average joe". I would rather race with 10 seriously committed drivers then 30 average joes.

Michael,

You have done a gerat job with all of your racing to get to the level you are at & are commited to no end as are a few others. Most are not able to do this for one reason or another & I would personally not like to tell them to find some where else to race. I enjoy racing with the fast guys at the front in our region & have good friendships with the guys in the back as well. I have raced in the current status of Nationals in FV's & it is the same, some slow guys who are not seriously committed drivers along with fast guys. I can say both of them were "average Joes" including myself. I would personally like to invite more average Joe's out & save money on flipping & replacing tires. That is just me though & I understand your point as you have put more effort in then most. I still think with any changes you will be leading the pack regardless.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Michael,

You have done a gerat job with all of your racing to get to the level you are at & are commited to no end as are a few others. Most are not able to do this for one reason or another & I would personally not like to tell them to find some where else to race. I enjoy racing with the fast guys at the front in our region & have good friendships with the guys in the back as well. I have raced in the current status of Nationals in FV's & it is the same, some slow guys who are not seriously committed drivers along with fast guys. I can say both of them were "average Joes" including myself. I would personally like to invite more average Joe's out & save money on flipping & replacing tires. That is just me though & I understand your point as you have put more effort in then most. I still think with any changes you will be leading the pack regardless.

I totally understand, and I didn't mean my post as we shouldn't be inviting average joes to race. I welcome everyone and I know we need the average guy in our class....the point I was trying to make is so much effort and talk has been about finding ways to make it "easier". I just don't feel making it "easier" is the right approach. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who can come into our sport without having to attract them by making is easy. We just need to find them.

[Bill Bonow]

What do you think will happen when reputable engine builders start making FST engines?

Someone needs to tell Dave Carr/Autowerks that he better start building reputable engines.

Oh, wait, didn't Dave build the engines that won the Runoffs in FV the last two years?

[craigs]

I believe Michael is on target on the part about cost. Comparing the cost of a limited region regional only class to a well developed national class is comparing apples to oranges.

The second part of his post he can get away with because he has earned the respect to say it. I haven't yet, but I do agree.

I will say, again, we need to concentrate on what makes FV great and publicize that. Also, while keeping our rule set stable, implement planned cost reductions over the longterm that do not obsolete high dollar items. Obsoleting 1200 engines is a deal breaker in my mind. It would also be my fist step towards FF.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Someone needs to tell Dave Carr/Autowerks that he better start building reputable engines.

Oh, wait, didn't Dave build the engines that won the Runoffs in FV the last two years?

haha....yeah, I would consider Autoworks a reputable engine builder. My out is I said "builders". As in plural. When 1 or maybe 2 are doing it, there isn't much to drive the cost up....but you know that when Noble, Peak, Ron Chuck, Veetech, ect., all start building 1600 motors, the costs will be going up.

[Amon]

Mike,

I agree with you per the majority of your last post, especially about the FST's and
the direction each class should head in the future. However, FV as a class has
dropped to fourth (?) in the overall rankings, and as one long time driver told me
yesterday, that's the first time FV has been that low in 40+ years. The driver's whose
cars are just sitting in the garage's are telling us that the status quo isn't favorable
to their wallets currently and thus the decline in numbers. They've walked away from
the game and we need to get them back, not by ignoring them but by embracing their
concerns. I would rather race against 30 joe's who have as much passion for the sport
as anyone else, but maybe not the budget than just 10 hardcore racers. If we keep
heading in the same direction, those 10 hardcore racers will soon be 8, then 6 then 4
hardcore drivers because that's the current trend. I don't know what the magic cure
is per more numbers but we need to change the status quo and soon!

Mark

[craigs]

Mark:

I assume telling those guys they can come out as long as they buy an engine, new wheels, beam and brakes isn't the solution you have in mind?

Craig


On the engine note - I have no idea what the FV builders have in inventory of parts, but if we switch 100% over to 1600cc who eats their sunken cost into now worth pennies on the dollar inventory?

[Mark Filip]

All the FST talk is getting annoying, with the most annoying part being the notion that FST is so much cheaper.

All classes start out with the intent of being cheap. It's the competition that starts to raise the expense. Of course FST is cheaper now - there isn't much competiton. What do you think will happen when reputable engine builders start making FST engines? Or how about when there is a Runoffs field of 30? We'll be right back here again complaining about how expensive it is.

What I find ironic is those pushing the FST are doing so with a major selling point being the cost....yet the more they lure into the class, the more expensive it will become.

If that didn't piss some people off this part will...Racing isn't easy. Nor is it cheap. Simply put its not a sport for everybody. We should not be dumbing down the class with things like added weight so average joe can feel competitive. Why should those who go through the effort of staying in shape, lightening things as much as possible, ect., be penalized for those not wanting to work for something? It's like kids soccer games not keeping score so there is no winner or looser. We should be finding more competitive people willing to put effort into a racing program then trying to attract the "average joe". I would rather race with 10 seriously committed drivers then 30 average joes.

I agree 100%

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Mike,

I agree with you per the majority of your last post, especially about the FST's and
the direction each class should head in the future. However, FV as a class has
dropped to fourth (?) in the overall rankings, and as one long time driver told me
yesterday, that's the first time FV has been that low in 40+ years. The driver's whose
cars are just sitting in the garage's are telling us that the status quo isn't favorable
to their wallets currently and thus the decline in numbers. They've walked away from
the game and we need to get them back, not by ignoring them but by embracing their
concerns. I would rather race against 30 joe's who have as much passion for the sport
as anyone else, but maybe not the budget than just 10 hardcore racers. If we keep
heading in the same direction, those 10 hardcore racers will soon be 8, then 6 then 4
hardcore drivers because that's the current trend. I don't know what the magic cure
is per more numbers but we need to change the status quo and soon!

Mark

Yeah, I know we certainly have a problem. I'm just looking at it from a different view point. I feel part of the joy and thrill of racing is the reward of doing something that few dare to challange themselves to do. It's the ability to extract every last drop of performance out of yourself and the car that makes for the reward. Setting a new personal best time, best finish, ect....but it's the effort that makes it pay off. Don't most people feel their best after they found some minor little thing to do on the car that helped them finish 1 place higher in their next race? That feeling is from seeing their work pay off....simply providing an easier means for someone to drive around the track will not provide the long term thrill that will keep those with cars sitting in garages coming back for more then a couple of races.

I think the effort needs to be in simply finding new people. Show off FV's strong points. Use the strong points to help people buy those cars sitting in the garages, rather then trying to convince the current owners to come out and play.

Edit - I should add so people don't assume I'm just all hot air, I've been trying to find a way to build a few more cars to rent out to new comers. I've always thought that's part of what FV needs - a few more reputable shops willing to rent out cars. I'm hoping to do something in the next year or two if I can find a way. I would love to give people an opportunity to race a competitve FV and do my part to help strengthen the class.

[2BWise]

If that didn't piss some people off this part will...Racing isn't easy. Nor is it cheap. Simply put its not a sport for everybody. We should not be dumbing down the class with things like added weight so average joe can feel competitive. Why should those who go through the effort of staying in shape, lightening things as much as possible, ect., be penalized for those not wanting to work for something? It's like kids soccer games not keeping score so there is no winner or looser. We should be finding more competitive people willing to put effort into a racing program then trying to attract the "average joe". I would rather race with 10 seriously committed drivers then 30 average joes.

Completely agree. Put in the time, effort, and money that you can. If you're not able to put in as much as the next guy then too bad. That's his advantage.

The title of this thread reads "What does FV need for the future". I know my intent in mentioning FST is that it solved a lot of the reasons I got out of FV. I really don't have a dog in this fight anymore, I no longer own a FV and I've only run an FST for a weekend. I'm content running my FC at the moment.

Lots of people seem happy to sit with the status quo. The club in general seems content to do that. But how do you bring in new drivers if they don't want to join you. Yes, FV is still standing strong at 4th in participation, but I'd love to see the numbers on average age of entrant. What happens when in ten or twenty years when the current crop of drivers start getting out? You're not pulling in veefan's kids and you're not likely to pull in many other in that age bracket. Or at least that has been been experience.

[Bill Bonow]

..but you know that when Noble, Peak, Ron Chuck, Veetech, ect., all start building 1600 motors, the costs will be going up.

Actually Mike, the common rule in marketing (and quite often pointed out here at Apex) is that competition will keep cost under control (think spec tire posts, Hoosier/Goodyear). If this is true, once Noble, Peak, Chuck and Veetech start building, Autowerks will need to lower his price.

Or am I off on that one as well?

[Amon]

Mike,

I think we need to do both.....bring out the garage queens and bring
new blood to the class. I don't believe we should turn our backs on
those who have stepped away from the sport, but rather address
their concerns.

Mark

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Actually Mike, the common rule in marketing (and quite often pointed out here at Apex) is that competition will keep cost under control (think spec tire posts, Hoosier/Goodyear). If this is true, once Noble, Peak, Chuck and Veetech start building, Autowerks will need to lower his price.

Or am I off on that one as well?

Awwww, come on Bill. We all know standard laws of economics don't apply to racing!

Alright...back to work.

[craigs]

Bill:

I believe there are two things that make this not a typical marketing example. Each engine builder has a sunken cost of 1200 parts and would have to build an inventory of 1600 parts if we all switched over. That up front investment in parts would not be 100% funded by the reserves of the builders, but would be passed on to the consumer so the builder could recover both the cost of lost 1200 inventory and the scale up of 1600 inventory.

The other, and I believe larger longterm factor is that as the population of 1600 buyers increase there will be naturally a shift to both ends of the exspense spectrum (broadening the curve). Typical business the mean may not move. But in racing as soon as someone comes in and starts paying for more powerful engines the demand for more power from the field will increase. As the engines become more powerful and parts become more specialized and lifespan becomes shorter the costs start to escalate until the consumer reaches a max $:Hp level.

(EDIT: I left out the cost of the builder's time too. As the consumer group grows there will be more and more people who will be willing to pay for more and more development time further pushing the cost curve one direction. I would love to see a study someday on engine cost breakdown time vs. parts)

We have reached close to that level in FV. That level in FST has not been reached.

Craig

[Amon]

Craig,

I think the FST gang has tried to prevent runaway engine costs by requiring
a restrictor plate, but I get your point on intial costs etc.....


Mark

[Bill Bonow]

Craig,

Please read my post # 229
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...&postcount=229
I'm not for or against "it" in this area of Apex. I am reasonably aware of the class and how life in the FV world fuctions, more so than you may realize. My goal in posting is purely to attempt to keep things factual.

My main reason for following this thread is to moderate for Doug Carter. This topic tends to be very volatile (has been for a decade).

[Amon]

We've got a new sheriff in town and name is :..........Bill Bonow!

[craigs]

Bill:

I appreciate your experienece and your involvement in a class that has allowed me to get into road racing. Moderating a bees nest like this deserves just as much respect.

But I believe it is falicy that costs will stay the same as current FST if or when FV and FST are merged to 1600 engines. Costs will go up because the consumer group will support it and even drive it. Using "common marketing rules" to race engine demand and cost doesn't apply here.

(Damn it I should be working!)

Let's say there is the great merger of 2012 to the 1600 cc engine...The people who do merge from the FV world will be the higher spenders NOT the guys with vees in their garages/barns sitting. It will be the people with the money/time to do the conversion and the money to buy new 1600 cc engines. It won't be the people teetering on the edge of racing. The people who convert will drive an immediate average cost increase in 1600 engines. These same people are probably the ones driving the levels of competition/cost up in FV (you know them - the ones who do all the practice days, have the red shocks, multiple wheel and tire sets, new rains every year, etc...). When they come into FST they are going to do the same thing - pushing the envelope - and engines are where they are going to start.

I do not believe typical market model of more builders means reduced cost in this case. A more accurate statement unfortunately may be more consumers means additional costs.

Craig

[Daryl DeArman]

On the engine note - I have no idea what the FV builders have in inventory of parts, but if we switch 100% over to 1600cc who eats their sunken cost into now worth pennies on the dollar inventory?

They do and that's why it won't happen. They've collectively went out on a limb, secured enough bits and pieces to help ensure that those who race FV will still have something to race over the next several years. Now as the well begins to run dry we want to stick them with what's left? Merge the two classes, the 1600 package will grow in popularity while the 1200 package continues to have a place to race. Don't obsolete the 1200 stuff over night.

[Bill Bonow]

Craig,

I'm going to make this one point. Not so much as an "it" promoter, but in the interest of keeping things factual (costs we have monitored over the past decade).

Racing cost money. Every year the cost goes up. 100% agreed. The difference (pointed out a multitude of times) is that the basic cost of the 1600 engine componenets is much less than the basic cost of 1200 engine components. Will cost go up? (have you ever seen them go down?) The point being that at the same time as 1600 cost go up, 1200 continues to climb as well. When a 1600 costs $6000 to build (new mind you), a 1200 (mostly used parts) will cost $10k plus.

As for the pushing of the envelope, read the "it" rules. 100+ years of FV experience wrote those rules to limit that as much as possible.

Over time, the 1600 component parts will always cost less.

1200 stuff will always have value. Vintage FV is a booming class

Enough said, fight this out between yourselves. Just keep it civil

[Steve Bamford]

I know much less then most on this topic but I don't believe you cant do anything to match the engines even with restrictor plates as they have different power & torque curves.

Having mixed run groups with FV & FST can only help both classes though IMO. People can then see benifits of both classes & choose the one that makes sense for them.

The way to improve FV is to build strong regional groups as there are a few already. Need people to market what is a good racing option to those around them.

[blackhole]

Kevin, you had to do this because here in Ontario Canada we don't have any FST series to run in. You could have bought many FV's that are available for sale so I don't really understand your post. If you wanted to race the car as is you could have run Formula Libre in the Formula alphabet class.

If we were to decide to change the F1200 series here in Canada I believe we would lose drivers/cars & the class would fall apart.

There still is lots of room for FV to continue on & people will always be moving from one class to another. I moved to FF to race because I wanted to go faster however I find the racing in our F1200 series much closer & cars more equilized so I am fortunate enough to race both. That being said if I wasnt able to race in two classes on the same weekends I would have choosen FF over FV. Reasons vary for this but I have the ability to race both classes & love that.

Many people move on from FV & many people come back to FV. There is great racing & it is a great class with a lower budget then any other road racing class I know of.

I bought this car because at the time i thought we got a good deal. However that was not the case. I don't want to "drive around in libre" I picked 1200 for the close racing. i would just like to see some gradual updates over a period of some years. i would like to be able to buy "brand new" barrels and pistons, rings, crankshafts, connecting rods. Yes the barrels and pistons we can get from the states but i dont want to order from the states because of the extra cost.

I completly agree with you if we would update everything at once the class would crumble. We do one thing at a time and give people a couple of years to get ready for it. Overall I think we do have a great class in Canada, don't get me wrong. The title of this forum is "what does fv need for the future" so I just throwing some ideas of what we can do.

Im seeing some posts of people saying they are getting sick of hearing about fst and what can we do to improve FV. But I hope we can all agree that the 1200 is dead they haven't made parts for these for I dont even know how long. Isn't our only option a 1600. I surely hope we can all agree on this? If not please tell me how we can make brand new 1200 parts available again. Than I will be all for it!

As far as getting people into our class. We need to lower costs. Alot of people in Ontario that come from karting will choose to go oval racing over road course because of the cost of entry fees. Over the past few years we have been promoting F1200 at the local kart track. As soon as we say it costs over $300 to enter and $250 to practice there mouth drops. They say to us why would I pay that much if I can buy an oval car and get paid to come and race. I know this problem is out of our hands but this is a big problem.

[Matt King]

As far as getting people into our class. We need to lower costs. Alot of people in Ontario that come from karting will choose to go oval racing over road course because of the cost of entry fees. Over the past few years we have been promoting F1200 at the local kart track. As soon as we say it costs over $300 to enter and $250 to practice there mouth drops. They say to us why would I pay that much if I can buy an oval car and get paid to come and race. I know this problem is out of our hands but this is a big problem.

Unfortunately, I don't see lower entry fees for road racing on the horizon. That cost is primarily driven by the tracks themselves and is market-driven by the demand for use of those facilities. Club racing is not the only game in town. Many tracks make more of their overall revenue by renting to car clubs and private testing than they do to the SCCA and other racing groups, and there are people waiting in line to pick up available dates.

Circle track racing is a completely different beast. Those tracks operate on a promoter model. They make their money on gate receipts, and the racers are bringing the entertainment that sells tickets. Amateur road racing has proven to not be a product that promoters can sell to a large spectator audience. so it's unlikely the business model will change.

[sracing]

Matt and Greg, Both right on re: the changes to FV. Obviously some things could be changed (spec tires, etc.) But a slow path conversion to a FST via incremental changes is not really technically or fiancially sound. You end up with all kinds of discrepancies and throw-away expenses. As Greg knows, we considered some of these things in FST. We could just never come up with anything that made sense competitvely and cost wise.

The proper answer for FV is EITHER a conversion similar to FST, or stay as is (with a possible spec tire.) But I don't think any real concensus will be reached in the US to make any change at a National level.

All classes start out with the intent of being cheap. It's the competition that starts to raise the expense. Of course FST is cheaper now - there isn't much competiton. What do you think will happen when reputable engine builders start making FST engines? Or how about when there is a Runoffs field of 30? We'll be right back here again complaining about how expensive it is.

What I find ironic is those pushing the FST are doing so with a major selling point being the cost....yet the more they lure into the class, the more expensive it will become.

First, after building dozens of FV motors from scratch and hundreds of rebuilds (plus dozens of FST motors) and them winning Nationals and doing very well in the run-offs, I consider us to be "REPUTABLE" engine builders. I have no doubt that some bulders will claim their new Phase 2 heads, or Special Carb, etc. etc will be needed and some suckers will buy them. (We went through this in FV with heads, spark plug wires, etc. etc.) They are making the same HP now that they did 15-20 years ago. (brake HP , inertial HP, torque curves etc.) (with the certain exceptions of when the rules were opened at times. (weights, rocker arms, etc.) Track records are pretty stable with those exceptions.

Obviously in the event of a nationalization of FST, more money will be thrown at it.
That's racing. But the rules currently stipulate a BJ beam, (1/2 the price and available new), cranks and rods, etc. all lasting longer with lower pricing and off the shelf availabilty from many vendors. and I won't even go into all of the other reasons your post is incorrect. If it becomes National and the rules do what happend in FV then yes some degree of escallation will happen. But due to the massive availabilty and vendors of later beetle parts this is a great exageration.

BTW, demand (if FST takes off) will have little effect on most prices. There are tens of thousands of VW's, using the same parts that FST uses. If there were 100 FST's built tomororow there would be no real impact on demand. No one is making FV parts (for all practical purposes). So you would be hard pressed to even build 20 cars without demand pressures.

And actually other than tires, I don't consider costs the MAJOR selling point of FST. Entry fees, travel costs, etc. are the bulk of most expenses. It is much more of availabilty, longevity and ease of maintainance. (and of course potential weight and size advantages.) IMO even if FST reached the prices of FV it would still have those advantages.

Since there are costs to convert to FST,. The ONLY answer for FV is to keep FV as it is.

FST is a separate class and will live or die on it's own.

[Rolling Stone]

I totally understand, and I didn't mean my post as we shouldn't be inviting average joes to race. I welcome everyone and I know we need the average guy in our class....the point I was trying to make is so much effort and talk has been about finding ways to make it "easier". I just don't feel making it "easier" is the right approach. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who can come into our sport without having to attract them by making is easy. We just need to find them.

WE are in Canada having racing fun!me at the back,Iamundi at the front every race w/e for the 6 meetings,thin guys,fat guys,Radials,skinny manifolds that dont cost $1000 ...so come on up to Mosport like MR. Spadine Junior does and get a Masters trophy and some decent Beer,heck!if you come for the first race in May you may experience racing in the snow

[lawyerbob]

Since there are costs to convert to FST,. The ONLY answer for FV is to keep FV as it is.

FST is a separate class and will live or die on it's own.

That certainly seems to be the general opinion on this thread. I wonder though if the title is wrong - too broad. Overall there seems to be concensus that what FV NEEDS is to retain drivers and attract new blood. To that end, I suggest that the topic be rephrased to "What does FV need to retain driver/owners and attract new driver/owners in the future" That may focus the discussion. (and yes, I think that's a different, very narrow question which may then shape the discussion - ie does it need marketing, evolution, "perception management", ??? and how do we go about that)

I'd also point out that (if you haven't seen it) there is a final F600 Rules proposal to make F600 a national GCR "regional class" Assuming the BOD adopts this (I understand it comes up in the next couple months) I think BOTH FV and FST better be looking over their shoulders - 100% speculation, but I think that's a platform that a LOT of young drivers will find tempting - and the ability to convert an existing F500 car will make it doable on budgets similar to FV or FST. Just my opinion.

So - what does FV need to do to keep/attract drivers?

[sracing]

Skip this if you don't like to hear anything about FST.

I am sorry, but I HAVE to add more to this, since some posts have made incorrect claims.

We have NEVER broken a rotor in FST, be have never broken a spindle/axle in FST, we have never bent a backing plate. We don't have to grind off 100+gr from a already less than optimum rod. We don't need $85 offset bushings to achieve best camber, we have dry sumped engines running for as long as 3 years (30+ races) that dyno EXACTLY as they did after their first race and the bearings look like new.

In a corner we maintain Camber, we adjust camber (and caster) in 5 minutes. We adjust brakes in 0 seconds, we change brakes in 10 minutes (once a year if that)

And all the above are less expensive and available new.

These are NOT exagerations. I could cover several other items, but I know some of you don't like to hear them.

Staying FV is fine, but trying to negate certain FST advantages is not possible.

Yes. Promotion of the Class, (FV or otherwse) is the only thing that is going to grow FV. I don't see many rules changes that will bring in a bunch of drivers that have never heard of us.

[Steve Bamford]

I believe this thread has pretty well run its course now. People have made their suggestions & others have countered them with some objections. People have brought merrits of other classes for good or bad depending on your own personal view.

As someone pointed out earlier there are many people missing who are in the community that need to be reached out to.

Hopefully after all this discussion something good will come out of this. It has shown there are many people who care deeply about FV & want it to coninue on for many years.

[problemchild]

We should be finding more competitive people willing to put effort into a racing program then trying to attract the "average joe". I would rather race with 10 seriously committed drivers then 30 average joes.

Maybe FV needs to define itself. To me, FV is supposed to be about average joes. The seriously committed drivers can go race F1, or atleast, F2000.

Are there more than ten seriously committed drivers racing FV now. I can think of two. Michael and Stephen ....who else. Roger certainly is not.

[Mark Filip]

Maybe FV needs to define itself. To me, FV is supposed to be about average joes. The seriously committed drivers can go race F1, or atleast, F2000.

Are there more than ten seriously committed drivers racing FV now. I can think of two. Michael and Stephen ....who else. Roger certainly is not.

Average Joes stay home and watch racing. Racers go and race. I think I'm a pretty committed driver, Just because I'm not running Nationals or going to the run offs makes me not committed? Michael, Stephen and Roger are the only Committed drivers?

[Matt King]

Average Joes stay home and watch racing. Racers go and race. I think I'm a pretty committed driver, Just because I'm not running Nationals or going to the run offs makes me not committed? Michael, Stephen and Roger are the only Committed drivers?

+1. This idea that we are going to make FV racing as simple as picking up a set of golf clubs or going fishing is ridiculous. It is a sport that requires a huge level of commitment, if for no other reason than every time you enter a hot race track, you are literally putting your own life and the lives of others at risk. That is not something any of us should lose sight of in an attempt to make the class more accessible.

[Mark Filip]

I can't speak for everyone but I know there is not a day that goes by and I do not think about Racing, how to make myself faster how to make the car faster. I check craigslist and other sites for parts I bet twice a day. I can't sleep at night sometimes because my brain is still thinking about how I can make my car lighter because I like food to much and you have never heard me say anything ever about you guys should raise the weight to help me out and hopefully that will motivate me to loose some weight. I think most of us are pretty committed.

[Steve Bamford]

+1. This idea that we are going to make FV racing as simple as picking up a set of golf clubs or going fishing is ridiculous. It is a sport that requires a huge level of commitment, if for no other reason than every time you enter a hot race track, you are literally putting your own life and the lives of others at risk. That is not something any of us should lose sight of in an attempt to make the class more accessible.

Guys, no matter how you wish to look at it in some sense we are all average Joe's. No one said to make the sport as simple as picking up a set of golf clubs or a fishing rod & off you go. You need a hell of a lot more then just a car to enter a race.

Everyone's interpretation of the word commitment is different as well. Michaels & a few others level of commitment are at the highest level, I can only guess people that are as committed as him make up less then 5% of the class & I would bet more like 1%. If my numbers are even close to accurate that leaves a huge amount of drivers 'less committed' & perhaps looking for ways to improve things for the class & their own track experience.

I also don't believe any of the suggestions will jeopardize safety, most will only help to improve it.

[Matt King]

Everyone's interpretation of the word commitment is different as well. Michaels & a few others level of commitment are at the highest level, I can only guess people that are as committed as him make up less then 5% of the class & I would bet more like 1%.

Yes, it does depend on how you define commitment. If you want to talk about commitment, I think a lot of us who are in our 40s and 50s, married, with young children, jobs and mortages can talk about what it means to be committed to racing. Spending a lot of time and money prepping your race car does not even come close to that level of commitment when you consider some of the consequences of racing, IMO.

[FVRacer21]

I agree! Excellent idea!

Dosn't NER or Mohud have a club FV class? "z" bar and all?

Just to fill everyone in - Club Vee was tried in the NE in the early late 1990's.

It was a regional class and we tried tire, shock and other restrictions in order to keep the cost down. The fields started out good (6+) but stopped growing immediatley and the class was abandoned 2 years later.

It is not the age of the cars that keeps people off the track. It is the economy and economics.

By that I mean it is mostly working class people who run FV. If they are out of a job, or working 60 hours+ per week (and many FV people own their own business) they do not have the time to race.

Constant safety updates and the increased cost in entry fees and consumables (gas tires, travel) also hurt the pocketbook.

Throw in the general SCCA hassles and mixed classes and you can see why many people are going spec Maita.

The way to bring back people to FV is to make it fun again. That is easier done on a track by track basis. See how succesful NER is with FV at Nre Hampshire. Look at the F1200 series in Canada and the FST series in the Midwest. These are the models for Regional Racing. National Racing is another kettle of fish.

ChrisZ

[jhenn4716]

It is not the age of the cars that keeps people off the track. It is the economy and economics.

By that I mean it is mostly working class people who run FV. If they are out of a job, or working 60 hours+ per week (and many FV people own their own business) they do not have the time to race.

Constant safety updates and the increased cost in entry fees and consumables (gas tires, travel) also hurt the pocketbook.

Throw in the general SCCA hassles and mixed classes and you can see why many people are going spec Maita.

The way to bring back people to FV is to make it fun again. That is easier done on a track by track basis. See how succesful NER is with FV at Nre Hampshire. Look at the F1200 series in Canada and the FST series in the Midwest. These are the models for Regional Racing. National Racing is another kettle of fish.

ChrisZ

I think Chris has really identified one of the major issues we're facing. FV has always been known as the inexpensive road to racing (yes we all know racing isn't cheap). But a person with a limited budget could buy a car and race with a huge payoff in having a good time at the track. That same person is hit hardest by a down economy. That's why the car sits in the garage. I know of at least 5 people who would have been racing this past season if it weren't for the economy.

The second issue we aren't really talking about is age. Look at the number of people who say they have 20+ years of experience in FV. The class as a whole is getting older. As you get older you realize you don't bounce back like you used to when you were younger. I would say that some of the drivers who have parked their cars are doing it in part because of age. Coupled with a weak economy, that's less of a drive to get back on the track.

We need to promote racing and racing in FV. We all can agree that FV can be a great stepping stone in terms of learning racing. So lets promote that. An increased web presence is mandatory. That is where people now do all their searching. Just as Mike mentioned, have some cars that are rentable. Perhaps talk to the guys who have cars parked in the garage, see if they will prep them enough that they could be rented. We could build an arrive and drive program.

The last thing will be the hardest, that is keep the costs down as much as possible. Perhaps have central stockpiles of gear that people can resource. For all those who are hoarding parts, stop hoarding and make parts available. If the class were abandoned next year (hypothetically speaking), or better yet if the apocolypse comes later this year, do you really want to have all that wasted stock sitting on a shelf?

In reading the posts, I don't believe anyone is discussing the eventual slow transformation to FST. Could that eventually happen? Maybe but I doubt it in the next 5 years. Our problem is not the cars, it's the people. Bring back the people and all this squabble disappears.

[veefan]

Might sould like a silly question... but were are all the race fans??? Go to a regional race at Limerock, NHMS, etc ... no ones watching! That would be a prime source of NEW people intrested in going racing!

SCCA should be promoting regional and national races... Fans = more new drivers = lower costs... and maybe lower entry fees??? silly idea.

[lawyerbob]

SCCA should be promoting regional and national races... Fans = more new drivers = lower costs... and maybe lower entry fees??? silly idea.

Not a silly idea at all - I think that's exactly what should be happening. probably a topic for another thread though

[Rolling Stone]

Guys, no matter how you wish to look at it in some sense we are all average Joe's. No one said to make the sport as simple as picking up a set of golf clubs or a fishing rod & off you go. You need a hell of a lot more then just a car to enter a race.

Everyone's interpretation of the word commitment is different as well. Michaels & a few others level of commitment are at the highest level, I can only guess people that are as committed as him make up less then 5% of the class & I would bet more like 1%. If my numbers are even close to accurate that leaves a huge amount of drivers 'less committed' & perhaps looking for ways to improve things for the class & their own track experience.

I also don't believe any of the suggestions will jeopardize safety, most will only help to improve it.

Well said!

[sracing]

SCCA should be promoting regional and national races... Fans = more new drivers = lower costs... and maybe lower entry fees??? silly idea.

Not a silly idea, but a few problems. Normally the track gets the gate receipts. In return they provide security and take the risks, provide seating, sell hotdogs , etc. They also participate with the sanctioning body in promoting the event to get people to come.

If the tracks thought they could cover all their expenses and make money they would love to entertain spectator events. If SCCA racing got popular enough (like F1 ), the SCCA could even ask the track to pay THEM to put the event on. But I think we are a long way from that.

That is why the roundy tracks have much lower entry fees. The fees are usually only to cover the purse. The gate receipts pay for the track.

Ovals are cheaper to rent and maintain and spectators prefer an oval. So road course racing has a big set of problems.

Even with getting TV coverage. 3 to 4 cameras and a couple announcers and you can do a small oval. Probably 4- 5 times that with a road course.