Spec Tires

[rgu]

After reading some of the stuff above I'm impressed with how fast and loose facts are presented. I’ll tolerate that because the spec tire concept seems to be getting some real support. My first introduction to spec tires was at Brands Hatch, in I think 1973. I was watching the Formula Ford race which had about 40 entries. The Fords were running (I think) a Firestone radial. As I watched them go through corners three abreast I was astounded by the slip angles. The Ford races I saw the states were between cars that were connected and didn’t slide around and I loved it as much as I hated the Brit sliders. After that I only cared about real race tires on real race cars. I wanted one of those Fords on race tires but graduate school demanded all my resources so I never got one. After many years of involvement in racing I’m left with these opinions.

1. Real race cars should not use street tires

2. Tire companies can and have produced spec tires that are durable yet can produce up to 1.8 g road holding and give you 20+ heat cycles.

3. I wonder how many street tire companies will show up at SCCA races if everyone was running street Toyos, Falkins Proxies, Advans … . Everybody better get to know the local tire dealers within 10 miles of their favorite tracks if they want any service. I really appreciate having the Hoosier or Goodyear Truck at the racetrack. I also appreciate their R&D and their general support and the fact that they can be counted on in an emergency.

4. Street tires weigh a lot more than a real race tire, suck in the rain when they are shaved for the dry and in general are totally inferior at producing race tire respectable grip levels. Even hard race tires are better. There are many other reasons spec tires should real race tire such as weight and QA.

Formula First has a great spec tire but it could be better with a larger demand. I know what I would ask for and I've told Hoosier. They said they would do it with enough demand. So in my opinion FST and Vee should be getting together and demanding a spec tire that can serve them well and for mutual benefit. The vee guys should recycle all their rare 5 lug slot style VW wheels and get ones that will accommodate the spec tire. The current Ford R60 front Hoosier is perfect. A brand new, non cantilever slightly taller and narrower rear could be the perfect setup. The spec should be open to anyone who would produce such a tire.

It would work!

[Bill Bonow]

Thanks Robert,

Better to bring it home. Not such a hostile enviroment (self created)

I can't express to people how pleased I am with this one facit of FST, our tires. Forget about all the other great things, the tires and Hoosier support has been beyond excellent.

I keep posting that photo with 22 hash marks and keep forgetting to mention that I ran the '09 ARRC on that tire after the photo was taken (finished second out of 11 cars).

I'd bet your 13" idea would work, but the likelyhood of getting cooperation is minimal.
Besides, no matter how much tire money it saves, nobody would be excited to go slower.

[lawyerbob]

Very good points Robert. It's not even racing season yet and already I think I miss the cooperation and camaradire of FST

and off topic - I apologize in advance for what our Packers will be doing to your Giants today.

[Bill Bonow]

We started FST using the Formula F (at the time Formula Ford) tires on the recomendation of Bruce Foss. He also recomended to use the hard R-60 compound. A few years ago, they restructured the rear tire carcase for less cantilever and slightly larger diameter. Perfect for us

A couple years ago at the ARRC, I tested some Hoosier Vintage TD tires for Formula Ford. They had significantly less cantilever and larger diameter. My lap times were slower (about 3 sec. per lap). But my back straight speed was up significantly.

A less cantilevered, taller tire carcase would be great. The trouble is a new mold will nee to be made and Hoosier will not do this without significant tire volume. If the FV guys would go for a spec 13" tire, the volume could be high enough to justify the new mold. Fat chance of that ever happening

[lawyerbob]

and off topic - I apologize in advance for what our Packers will be doing to your Giants today.

Well, I was going to order pizza for dinner but apparently CROW is on the menu. damit.

[rgu]

Never watch football but pizza with crow instead of pepperoni might be a good franchise opportunity.

[jpetillo]

Robert, Bill & Bob,

Robert, excellent post regarding a spec tire and what that could be. I agree with what you said - well done. Thanks for posting it.

I agree with the tall tails that we hear in the FV circles and how tiresome it is. (When I mentioned the same, I was accused by some of proliferating it myself - all my apologies if true). There are too many people and there is a lot of baggage from so very few, and that's dragging down the community.

Bob, excellent post in the "Future of FV thread." I'm waiting for it to settle down before commenting on yours to bring it back on track.

Bill, the FV community is what it is; a relatively large group with some very opinionated folks. With such a large group, such behavior is inevitable in many cases, and if that weren't the case it would not be representative of human kind. I say this in the kindest way when I say that it would be good if FST becomes like that, it would mean that it grew to a big level. Hopefully it can do so without the opinionated people!

Stepping into this thread, I feel like I was at a rowdy convention and have walked into a quiet room! Best of luck with FST.

Thanks for listening and thanks for your posts. I come as a friend. John

[Bill Bonow]

John,

Thank you and you are welcome to post any time over here. FV or FST (basically the same anyway ). This is year 32 around FV (or similar) for me. Pretty familiar with all the types we hang around. I gotta figure I'm goofy like that too in some way shape or form. In order to waste money on racing, you have to be.

To continue with your tire management topic, One thing to note with our tires, I don't think any of us do anything other than flip them on the rim once (maybe twice?) in the 20+ heat cycles. Not even break them in, just bolt'em up and go.

I know you NE guys have not seen much of us. I think you may see a few more this year including our series race at Watkins Glen in September (The Fun One?). Last time we came to the Glen we brought 11 cars. Should be great.

[jsteeb]

Apex has certainly provided some fun reading tonight...

I really do not understand why more SCCA classes do not adopt a spec tire rule. I am yet to wake up in the morning and think to myself, "I hope I can spend $600 per weekend on tires this summer!" Most of us are weekend warriors, and must pick and choose what we spend our racing budget on. Spec tires seem to be a logical way to spread the budget out to other areas. Entry fees for example....

The Hoosier tire used in our series is the #3 reason I left FV. Aesthetics and the 1600 being #1 and #2.

[jpetillo]

Bill, thanks. Yes, I can definitely see how the lack of a need to break the tires in is popular. I hope to make it to the Fun One. John

[FVRacer21]

[FONT=Verdana]A tire is a tire is a tire.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]I have run on street radials since my days with Skip Barber and the best race car I ever drove was a Crossle 35F on BFG T/A radials. The tires were not as sticky as slicks, but that gave the car the right balance between braking, handling and acceleration. A FV does not need 1.8g tires, 1.4 makes the car drivable without slowing it down too much. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]In fact I ran street radials on my FV in the 90’s just to see if they would work and you can ask 2/3rds of the FV field I beat if they were not fast enough.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Tire design and construction have come a long way. As far as the manufacturers, both Goodyear and Hooseir make street tires and other manufactures come to races to support the other classes. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Besides, do you have racing pistons in your FV? How about a racing diff? Front suspension? If you drive a street car on a race track that does not make it a race car. But if you prepare a street car to a set of rules and race it in competition, it is a race car. Everything is a matter of degree. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]I agree that the tire manufactures CAN make a hard compound tire, but they won’t as long as we think of FV as F1 in miniature. Leave that to FF2000 and keep FV as a driver’s class.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]ChrisZ[/FONT]

[Bill Bonow]

Chris,

It's cool. Your in a different land down here. Nothing to be tense about. We are happy and mellow

With as much success as we have had with the R60A's from Hoosier, we have been testing other Hoosier tires. One thing we are flexable about. If someone has an idea for improvement of the breed, we talk about it, test and share.

You didn't say how you liked sitting in my car the other night at Butch's. Will it fit you? Should we think about a weekend at Blackhawk? As you've read, most people that try it don't want to go back

[FVRacer21]

Bill,

The thing with getting old is that you can say whatever you want and people will either think you are wise or losing your marbles - so either way you can't lose by speaking your mind.

I wish you guys had gone the street tire mode but understand and have no problem with a hard compound slick. You still need to carry rains though. My first years of FV I carried two street tires as rains and took the other 2 off the Caldwell Vee trailer if needed! Talk about racing cheap.

I was very impressed with the look of the cars. They definitely have that substantial look - more like a FF. I was a little disappointed in the fit (of me in the car, not the alternate FF engine) as I use the Crossle 35F as the benchmark for comfortable cars. there is a little too much going on in the footwell of the Evolution, although to be fair - it was not set up for me. I didn't realize it was your car.

If my job works out an I am still here in the Spring, and I get my license renewed, I would want to rent a car and try it out.

FV is split in the NE - not FV vs FST but Lime Rock vs NHMS. so if you introduce FST then you divide the camps again. I would think that a FST would be a great rental car and told Butch that is the way you might get a foothold in the NE. That and since we are grouped with the Club Fords and F500, that the extra speed would help in the lapping department (as in not getting lapped so much). George's lap times in 2010 put him right with the Club Fords.

Now I have to complain about the fact that the FV party is on the one weekend I have to be back in CT! You might have to have another one so I can meet everyone.

If not, I told Butch I will have to spend more time in his garage.

ChrisZ

[smsazzy]

FYI - The R60 and the R55 are identical compounds. It is the same rubber. The R60 is not a harder tire, simply wider.

[Bill Bonow]

Stephen,

Not sure that it's really all that important as we only allow one tire (more commonly known a "spec"), but from what I know and what Hoosier lists, the compound number designates the hardness, The higher the number, the harder the compound. Please reference the chart from Hoosier that clearly shows the compound number/hardness relationship. I'm sure the durometer readings are close, but if they are the same, why the different compound designation?

Quite honestly, if Hoosier offered a R70, R80 or R90 compound, the FFDA would look into using them. All I know is that FST as a class/group is very happy with the tire choice we made and with the fantastic support that we receive from Hoosier.