So what is the level of calibration of this flat bar? Do you see where this is going. I work on product all day long on the right side of the decimal point. Every one would have to use a flat bar in tha same way and in the same spec to be trully effective.
I understand totally. Its like thumb pressure and a set of verniers
I can't, but if we could find someone who has rebuilt dozens of these and measured the heads of them all then he could say what they are. Who could that be?Originally Posted by allof6
It is one of the many huge problems with the rules.
You can't prove it, you have to rely on people's integrity and that doesn't seem to be working. It is a huge problem with the rules right now. Maybe this is just another of many problems in the rules and FB needs a rule to specifically allow people to machine heads down to max CR. I don't think that any organization has been able to make a rule like FB has work. Don't they have spec mc engines in Europe and not try to allow multiple manufacturers?
What does AMA do? I thought I understood that they had to let the competitors build their engines all to some level to maintain enforcability and equality.
The FSM is co-opted into the GCR. If another FSM allows machining the heads down, changing valve timing, machining valve seats, etc. then I think it would be legal. I should have been more specific in saying that machining the 07-08 GSXR down to max CR is not allowed in the GCR. I don't know about other makes and the 07-08 GSXR is the prevalant engine right now.
I think George and maybe a very few others may know just what kind of manufacturing tolerances exist on these motors. When I used to wrench on them for a living, I was always very impressed how consistent the Japanese manufacturing was back then. Just what are we seeing now days for production tolerances for combustion chamber volume?
If there not public than they don't exist!!
I could not agree more especially with Honda. After all Honda was the jap engine manufacture in NASCAR.
On the K7 Suzuki the valve seats have a range of .008" in acceptable width of the 45 degree cut. Going from one extreme to the other (within factory tolerances) on all 4 valves would net a CR increase/decrease of almost .2 points
Last edited by Daryl DeArman; 05.05.11 at 10:17 PM.
This is an extremely interesting discussion & I suspect that it will be very beneficial in the long run. Hopefully it will lead to a rules definition that makes sense and that can be enforced.
I think that many who were involved in the beginning of F1000 realized that there were some deficiencies in the rules & this is nothing new for a new class. Now the class is maturing and some further definition of the rules set is required.
Of course the F1K series could easily have their own nicely defined rules, however it would be advantageous that the F1K rules were the same as the Club rules. I am sure that F1K & the CRB could work together to fix this issue with some help from some knowlegable competitors.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
allof6Quote:
Originally Posted by Wren
I can't, but if we could find someone who has rebuilt dozens of these and measured the heads of them all then he could say what they are. Who could that be?
It is one of the many huge problems with the rules.
Thats not what my caliper says, I know what it is!If there not public than they don't exist!!
Daryl DeArman[quote]On the K7 Suzuki the valve seats have a range of .008" in acceptable width of the 45 degree cut. Going from one extreme to the other (within factory tolerances) on all 4 valves would net a CR increase/decrease of almost .2 points [quote]
Any time I have cut a valve seat it sinks the valve in to the head, lowering the CR very slightly. I havent yet figured out how to add material to the valve seat by machining it to make the valves sit more proud.
I am sure glad we decided against an open engine rule in the F1K Series because that would have made things far too easy to inspect.
George
Having an adapter made for the 10mm plug should not be a big deal as they already go down to the 12mm plug.
You wouldn't think finding a whistler with a 10mm plug would be difficult since they already have 12mm adapters, but the fact is after much research, the whistler tubes are just under 10 mm them selves which makes it impossible. I checked with AMA and even they have a problem checking CP rations of engines with 10mm plugs.
It's not a simple as making an addapter because of the extreme tolerances with the whistler machines, the volume has to be exact.
Where would you like one sent for testing and evaluation?
Send to:
F1K Series
Attn: Jon Lewis
1616-102 W. Cape Coral Pkwy, PMB-271
Cape Coral, FL 33914
We will get one made up and send it off...
Great thanks.
George, I was speaking to the "range" of acceptable tolerances in the FSM which would result in a range of CR's. The resulting partsbin blueprinting to find heads that don't have the valves set as deep would happen if one is not allowed to shave heads after valves cut to maintain max legal CR.
[quote=George Dean;295861]allof6Quote:
Originally Posted by Wren
I can't, but if we could find someone who has rebuilt dozens of these and measured the heads of them all then he could say what they are. Who could that be?
It is one of the many huge problems with the rules.
Thats not what my caliper says, I know what it is!
Daryl DeArman[quote]On the K7 Suzuki the valve seats have a range of .008" in acceptable width of the 45 degree cut. Going from one extreme to the other (within factory tolerances) on all 4 valves would net a CR increase/decrease of almost .2 pointsWhats your caliper got to say about the Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Aprillia or even a Ducati.Any time I have cut a valve seat it sinks the valve in to the head, lowering the CR very slightly. I havent yet figured out how to add material to the valve seat by machining it to make the valves sit more proud.
I am sure glad we decided against an open engine rule in the F1K Series because that would have made things far too easy to inspect.
George
I guess they can cross that bridge when they come to it.
The easiest solution would be to say 07-09 Suzukis for the first year since that is all that is out there running, at least legally. I doubt that is going to happen since some people seem to think there is some upside to multiple manufacturers. There isn't.
Mr Allof6, You must not know what I do for a living, I started working on motorcycles 35 years ago and now I work on motorcycle engines Every Day that get put in racecars. I work on all makes and models that are popular in the racecar world. When I do a rebuild on an engine I take notes! Because it is helpful for the next time I have an engine of the same kind up on my work bench for seeing what works or not, but if the engine has been modified or not.
You are right not all of the engine measurements are published, But you are wrong they do exist. I have disassembled hundreds of engines and measured many of the components that dont have published specs in the manuals. I have found that the stock components are very consistant, the reason for this is that these engines were built for street motorcycles and they have to all meet strict federal standards and laws, Thats why in the service manual it tells you to replace the head rather than machine it if its warped, It will change the emissions the engine is producing.
I will give you a list of the engines I have measured for the popular engines in the FB class from the head gasket surface to valve cover gasket surface, becaused you asked
Yamaha R1 99-01 02-03 04-07 09-10
Honda CBR1000 06-07 08-10
Kawasaki ZX10 04-05 06-07 (I havent taken apart the 2011 yet, but soon)
Suzuki GSXR1000 All of them
You got me on the Ducati, Aprillia, BMW, Harley Davidson, Victory, Moto Guzzi, I have yet to see where someone has put one in a car and successfully made it run competitvely, when they do I will do more home work
Must get back to work I have wasted too much time on this because I cant type
George
As an experienced professional MC engine builder you probably haven't had the need to read the Suzuki FSM in years.
In the case of the K7, it only says to replace if it is distorted beyond .2 mm.
What would you do as a respected professional engine builder if it was warped .006" (.15mm) ? Suzuki believes either a) it is acceptable to machine if it is less than .2mm or b) it is acceptable to bolt that distorted head right back on the block.
Let me chime in here. We have already stated that we are allowing up to .20mm to be machined from the head for cleanup (warpage). So your question has already been answered. However, in no case can your compression ratio exceed that listed by the manufacturer. So, if you machine your head, you run the risk of increasing the Compression ratio beyond the acceptible limit. That's your call, but if its out of the limit, you're illegal.
[FONT=Calibri]I want to make one thing perfectly clear. We went to the stock engine rule because that's what everyone wanted. The open engine rule was soooo easy to enforce, but now we have the stock engine rule to contend with. So here are the bare facts. Run a stock engine, and I mean stock, all OEM, no machining of anything and you'll have nothing to worry about. Vary from that and you run the risk having your engine torn down, period. [/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]We will be using a variable of testing tools and procedures and they won't be the same every time. It's not our job to make it easy to cheat. It's our job to keep you guessing what and how we will check and catch you if you are cheating. George knows what falls within the manufacturers tolerances and what doesn't. We could use a whistler one weekend (if we can find one with a 10mm plug) or compression pressures the next. We could use a surprise mobile chassis dyno one weekend and bore scope the next, or a combination of these; you never know what we might use.[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]If your motor is stock you will pass through fine. If you've done work to the engine by, machining head or block, change internals, change the cam timing, modify the cam, port the heads, whatever, you will be caught. If we determine by our testing procedures that you are out of the tolerances or have modified the engine outside the rules, you will lose your qualifying or race position & points. It will then be up to you if you want to appeal it. You must appeal it within 30 minutes of our decision and before it leaves the tech inspection area. Then it will be determined by the Series Tech Director just how invasive of a procedure will be required to determine the legality in question. This could result in as little as a head being removed to a complete engine tear down. It will then be your decision whether to proceed with the teardown or accept the ruling of the Series. If you pass you will keep your position and points. If you fail you will lose and as with many professional series, any part found to be illegal will be confiscated by the Series.[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]Any/all teardowns will be done by the team under the tech canopy. Series officials will oversee but will not assist in the teardown procedure. The Series Tech Director will only inspect the various parts to determine their legality. Once the inspection process has ended and a determination has been given, only then will the car be released. Following any such procedure, it will be the team's responsibility to reassemble their engines at their own expense.[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]This is unfortunately the evil necessity when dealing with a stock engine rule, which was why we initially wanted the open engine rule. But let me again emphasize that we will be checking thoroughly and enforcing the rules. [/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]So keep this in mind. Run a stock engine and you won't have any problems. Monkey with it and you run the risk of an all out teardown.[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]This is professional racing not SCCA club racing. You're running for big bucks not trophies. The Series determines the rules and sets the measures in which to enforce them. This is all part of what running professionally is all about. After running teams in just about every major racing series in North America, I can honestly tell you, I've been through every kind of tech inspection possible. Sometimes it's not fun, but it helps to keep people honest.[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]A more defined set of engine rules will be published in the near future.[/FONT]
The term in the service manual (service limit) means up to that point that the part is useable. So if the head is warped .15mm Suzuki would say that is acceptable to use and would have you bolt it back on the engine,What would you do as a respected professional engine builder if it was warped .006" (.15mm) ? Suzuki believes either a) it is acceptable to machine if it is less than .2mm or b) it is acceptable to bolt that distorted head right back on the block
If I was working at a dealership and had somthing like that come up, I would probably talk to the customer and ask him how much power he wanted since the engine was apart, Machine it .5mm, put some adjustable cam sprockets in it, unplug the tail light and have the customer sign a release saying that the machine was for racing use only
Thats what I would do
George
I like it!
Thanks ... Jay Novak
This:
Awesome!
It's pretty clear from this thread and others that there are people out there machining their heads down and doing other things to their motor.
George is not the final authority in the SCCA, but he is the tech advisor for the class.
Anyone who gets protested or wins the runoffs and has a motor that has machined the head down is probably going to end up stating their case in front of the COA.
Wren, this thread is about the F1K Series, not SCCA club racing or the runoffs. George is the final authority in our series when it comes to tech. Period.
That's my final post on this thread.
When I was working at the dealership this is exactly the way we handled it. Go /No -Go type decission. Out of spec it gets replaced. In spec it goes back on the engine. The amount of permissible warpage is reflected by what the head gasket is capable of realiably sealing. I proved it to myself when I was building the FZR 1000 engines for our DSR car in the late 80's. If the head was still in spec it would rebuild fine. If the head was just over spec the head gasket would not hold up more than about two sessions on track.The term in the service manual (service limit) means up to that point that the part is useable. So if the head is warped .15mm Suzuki would say that is acceptable to use and would have you bolt it back on the engine,
Yes, I thought that was fairly obvious.
My only point is that people should realize that George has an important position in the club as well. It would be nice if there were fewer cheater motors out there in the racing that actually exists right now.
Whos going to tech Georges motors? Oh and isn't he a sponsor of the series to?
Now you're questioning the integrity of my staff? I guess you don't know George.
George is nothing if not honest. He will build his motors to the specifications allowed by the Series, and he will inspect ALL motors to make sure they are within the allowed tolerances.
As far as being a sponsor of the Series? No, he is not. GDRE is the official engine specialist of the Series and its services are technical inspection of ALL competitors.
I am not questioning anybody integrity only stating a fact. An engine builder cannot be a tech inspector in a class that they have customers in with being accused of favoritism at some point. Any competitor that is not the customer of the that person can refuse to have there motor inspected by them due to a conflict of interest.
You can beat around it all you want but fact is fact. I am not picking on anyone just stating the obvious.
Thank you
I don't think anyone questions GD's honesty or integrity but allof6 brings up a good point: what if I have GD do a standard rebuild and turn around and send it to another engine builder to build a cheater motor out of it? Is no one going to inspect that engine because it is thought to be a GD motor?
It shouldn't matter who the engine builder is. Just like you say JP, once the motor leaves George's shop there no longer is any control over it's build. All motors no matter who the builder need to be inspected the same. If people are worried that something may slip thru the system, you set up a check list for inspection and have another series official there as a witness. Two signatures required for all recorded measurments. After all this is a Big Bucks series.
This is more of an issue of the car owners integrity.
John Paul, You are correct in that a team could send out an engine to another builder and have some illegal work performed. It doesn't matter who built the engine, ALL, let me repeat that....ALL engines of the top 3 and one at random will be inspected thoughly. George wants this Series to succeed as much as anyone and he understands that the only way it can is due to everyone being legal. And I mean EVERYONE.
I hope that answers your questions.
I guess you must be confusing this series with a club. When you run in the F1K Series you acknowledge and agree that your engine can and will be inspected and you already understand that George is the Technical Director. Sure, you can refuse to have your motor inspected, but that only means that you will lose your position and points for that event. If you're running a stock legal motor I don't think checking compression ratios and pressures is going to give away any "double super secret engine work" If it does, there's something fishy in Denmark with that engine.
All of 6, I'm curious, could you please share with all of us what your relationship to F1000 or FB is? Are you an owner, driver, engineer of a team, etc? I'd just like to know who I'm conversing with. Thank you.
Jon,
Welcome to the wonderful world of racing message boads. From my experience on these things, they are a great place to spread info but a lousy place to have a debate. If 5 % of the posters relative to the new Trans Am Series would spend half as much time prepping race cars, or $ proposals as they do posting their "concern for the series" we would be turning cars away. So, just keep doing what you are doing, I think a properly run series for these cars will be very successful. Just don't get dragged down by the 'clubbie' style poster. In my experience they won't show up no matter what you do.
BTW, before everyone roast me, I am a Club racer at times too, in the same way Paul Newman, Jerry Hansen, etc. were. Just because it doesn't pay money doesn't mean it's not difficult. The 'clubbie' reference I mnake here is relative to those who think their membership dues entitles them to weigh in on every subject brought up, regardless of their intention to compete.
Tony
Yes
Allof6, care to elaborate? Yes is kind of an open answer.
I believe they are doing a one-off, homebuilt conversion of a Mygale. I do not think they have ever entered a race with it.
Jon,
I am involved on many levels. This was never directed to be bashing on "your" series. These are issues that exist with F1000 as a whole. You as a proposed "true series" can set the tone for the future of the class but it is going to take more that a big purse.
Take and draw from some of these conversations and assemble your rules properly and remember this is a "multi" engine format.
Good luck!
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