F1K Series Open Engine Rule

[F1000champ]

[FONT=Calibri]Formula 1000 Championship Series goes with Stock Engine Rule.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri]Cape Coral, FL (May 2, 2011) - After much consideration, talks with all the car manufacturers and input from various drivers, the Formula 1000 Championship Series has postponed its Open Engine rule for the 2012 season. [/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri]“We’ve had on-going talks with numerous manufacturers and drivers regarding our open engine rule and the overwhelming consensus is that everyone is in favor of a stock engine rule,” stated F1K Series manger Jon Lewis. “The enforcement of a stock engine rule was our primary concern when we initially opted for the open engine rule. However, our Technical Director George Dean has insured me that it can be enforced and that we will enforce it. This Championship depends on its team partners for its success and therefore we have to go with the overwhelming majority.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri]The open engine rule is not out of the question for future seasons, however in at least the first year the engine formula will remain as in the SCCA FB class. “We put our initial rules package out early to test the waters with the open engine rule so that we could properly formulate the rules for 2012. After much feedback it has become evident that the current stock engine is the rule of choice. We recognize that in today’s economy that costs are a significant factor and the stock engine rule enables us to be more attractive to teams and drivers around the world,” Lewis continued. “A driver can run his car in SCCA club racing one weekend and race in the F1K Series the next without having the added expense of an engine change. There might be a time in the future where the Championship will evolve into an open engine rule, but not in 2012.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri]With the stock engine rule there will be only one class. The split class structure was not well received. Every driver wants to win the Big Prize and now every driver has an equal opportunity to win the $50,000 and the Lotus-Renault GP i-race Award[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri]For more information about the Formula 1000 Championship Series visit: [/FONT][FONT=Calibri]www.F1Kseries.com[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri]###[/FONT]

[Northwind]

Another benefit- the prize money isn't diluted between two classes. More attractive yet.

[Brandon Dixon]

Good call.

In a series where it's not going to be easy getting enough competitiors, it is better to not dilute the racing with two classes. It's also important to not force people to choose between SCCA FB and this series.

[R. Pare]

My 2 cents -

20+ years ago we advised the then-owners of the F2000 series to keep the cars the same as the Club, with maybe the exception of going to a single tire supplier. They did that, and the series was very successful.

That is, until the later owner went away from the Club spec on the cars - it died shortly thereafter.


Now, the series is back to basicly Club spec, and doing very well.

Basicly, the majority of your entrants will be guys cherry picking the races close to them, with a smaller core of guys who can afford to do the whole series. The more you separate yourself from the existing cars, the fewer entrants you will get.

[F1000champ]

This is the one reason why we chose to postpone the Open Engine rule for 2012 and go with the stock engine rule as in SCCA FB. We want to make the Series accessible to as many participants as possible.

[Wren]

Will there be any guidance on what actually constitutes "stock?" There are still a lot of questions from the "rules" in the GCR.

I know that George has stated before that he does not think it is legal to machine down heads to the maximum compression ratio.

[dwornik]

[FONT=Calibri]"We recognize that in today’s economy that costs are a significant factor and the stock engine rule enables us to be more attractive to teams and drivers around the world,” Lewis continued. [/FONT]

When was it that the costs have not been a significant factor?
[FONT=Calibri]
Since I first got involved in F1000 2 years ago, I have been asking that the rules are enforced, and that they are structured to keep the costs down......meaning limit the number and type of tires, and limit the engine spec.
My background in motor racing for the last 38 years had been in F Atlantis, Indy Lights, ALMS, Champ Car and Indy Car, so believe me when I say that I know how to spend a lot of money to go racing. And if one person does it, then others will follow. And then very soon you will be looking at $3K to $4K for a season of FB. And as mentioned above, it will die very quickly.
The 3 major costs in racing are Travel, Personnel and Tires. You can't limit the number of personnel or their wages, but you can limit the tires, and you can help the travel costs by having a travel fund.....ie if Joe travels 100 miles, he gets $X. If Bob travels 300 miles, he gets 3 times $X.
This FB class is fantastic right now just .......keep it like it is but restrict the tires and enforce the rules and it will stay fantastic.
[/FONT]

[Stan Clayton]

That's good, but I hope you keep an "old man" class.

[F1000champ]

Thank you for your comments. Yes, the rules will be strickly enforced and we do have a travel (tow) fund (see our website www.F1Kseries,com ) as well as another post on ApexSpeed http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45683. We are doing eveything possible to keep costs down (within our control). That is one other reason why we are keeping our events on the eastern half of the country in 2012. Tires are limited (6 per event) and now with the stock engine rule, the motor costs are also kept to a minimum.

Stan, yes we still have the "old man" prize at the end of the season....LOL

[F1000champ]

George, maybe you can answer Wren's question better than I.

[F1000champ]

Wren, I spoke with George on your question and once he's done with an engine he needs to get out, he'll post a clarification for you. Thank you.

[JohnPaul]

Good luck enforcing a stock engine rule. I know engine builders so good that you couldn't tell even if the engine was wide open. I'm pretty sure GD can attest to that. Was does it cost to seal these engines? How do you definetively enforce it?

[Wren]

Good luck enforcing a stock engine rule. I know engine builders so good that you couldn't tell even if the engine was wide open. I'm pretty sure GD can attest to that. Was does it cost to seal these engines? How do you definetively enforce it?

You have George inspect the engine of every winner or pre-inspect the engines during tech. He is going to be at every one of these races as I understand it.

I was there for George checking Brandon's engine after the runoffs. He checked a lot of stuff.

The engine rule is just unenforcable at the club level.

[R. Pare]

"And then very soon you will be looking at $3K to $4K for a season of FB.

If only it were THAT inexpensive!

[F1000champ]

The top 3 and one at random will be scrutineered after each qualifying and race session. Initial scrutineering for all participants will happen during pre-tech.

Things will be checked and rules will be enforced.

I will let George inform you as to what is legal and what is not on his post.

[dwornik]

This is sounding better.
Everyone has plans to pack up or to be somewhere after the race, but if they know going in that they have to allow 2-3 hours after the event for tech, and that this tech may mean a strip down of their motor, then they will accept that it is the necessary evil that will allow good policing and hopefully some level of equality.
One idea I liked in the past for tech was to have a bag with 5 balls in it, Each with a number on them. As the driver got to tech, he would pull a ball and this would relate to everything from a full strip of the motor to something as simple as compression check. This tends to keep people honest.

[Stan Clayton]

Stan, yes we still have the "old man" prize at the end of the season....LOL

Sweet...thanks!

[allof6]

The top 3 and one at random will be scrutineered after each qualifying and race session. Initial scrutineering for all participants will happen during pre-tech.

Things will be checked and rules will be enforced.

I will let George inform you as to what is legal and what is not on his post.

Are you saying that you are going to open the motors after qualifying?

[Nicholas Belling]

This is sounding better.
Everyone has plans to pack up or to be somewhere after the race, but if they know going in that they have to allow 2-3 hours after the event for tech, and that this tech may mean a strip down of their motor, then they will accept that it is the necessary evil that will allow good policing and hopefully some level of equality.
One idea I liked in the past for tech was to have a bag with 5 balls in it, Each with a number on them. As the driver got to tech, he would pull a ball and this would relate to everything from a full strip of the motor to something as simple as compression check. This tends to keep people honest.

This I a great idea.defineltly implement something like this

[George Dean]

Jon has asked me to chime in on this one,
The tech inspection of the engines will be done on the top 3 finishers + one. I will be following the stock engine rule as described in the SCCA GCR. This means all engine components must be OEM. I believe that no metal should be removed from either the cylinder head or cylinder block, But we are going to allow up to .20mm to be machined from the head for clean up. No metal can be removed from the block surface. Cam shaft timing can not be changed from its original settings. If the service manual has a maximum compression pressure published that pressure will be the maximum that the engine can pump at the time of inspection, If the service manual does not have a maximum compression pressure published 250 psi will be the maximum. The compression tool will be the property of the F1KSeries and will be the only one used at the events.

Are you saying that you are going to open the motors after qualifying?

There will be pre race inspections of the cars and any competitor that changes an engine after qualifying will start at the rear of the field. This will eliminate the need to take engines apart and inspect them before the race.

Good luck enforcing a stock engine rule. I know engine builders so good that you couldn't tell even if the engine was wide open. I'm pretty sure GD can attest to that.

This I will have to see. An engine that makes more power than a stock one but you cant tell that its been modified in any way.
My brain is full now I must get rest

George

[F1000champ]

Thank you George.

[allof6]

No wonder everyone runs the Suzuki. The Manual is so loosely written the motor fall into the 250 number which is well above the stock advertised CR. I have had conversation with SCCA about this rule and way of measuring and they point blank told me that if the CR is above the advertised CR then the motor is illegal. You can machine the head to achieve the advertised CR but cant exceed it. (George we can talk privatly on who I spoke to and such if you wish)

If you want multiple engines on an even playing field than the rule need to be something like

"Compression ratio: The maximum compression ratio is 13:1. This can be achieved by gasket replacement or machining the head. Maximum machining is .020mm. Combustion chamber must remain untouched. The engine must use OEM piston and Bore and the stroke must remain as advertised. Aftermarket gaskets permitted"

By allowing something like this there is no need for SIRs, you don't have to worry about the next latest and great bike to hit the market and it give the guy running the older motors the ability to stay current with a simple rebuild. And the class not get out of hand. Policing the situation becomes easier.

[Jnovak]

No wonder everyone runs the Suzuki. The Manual is so loosely written the motor fall into the 250 number which is well above the stock advertised CR. I have had conversation with SCCA about this rule and way of measuring and they point blank told me that if the CR is above the advertised CR then the motor is illegal. You can machine the head to achieve the advertised CR but cant exceed it. (George we can talk privatly on who I spoke to and such if you wish)

If you want multiple engines on an even playing field than the rule need to be something like

"Compression ratio: The maximum compression ratio is 13:1. This can be achieved by gasket replacement or machining the head. Maximum machining is .020mm. Combustion chamber must remain untouched. The engine must use OEM piston and Bore and the stroke must remain as advertised. Aftermarket gaskets permitted"

By allowing something like this there is no need for SIRs, you don't have to worry about the next latest and great bike to hit the market and it give the guy running the older motors the ability to stay current with a simple rebuild. And the class not get out of hand. Policing the situation becomes easier.

I agree, There are also ways of actually measuring the true mechanical compression ratio without removing the cylinder head. NASCAR does it all the time. The technology is low cost too.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[glenn cooper]

[FONT=Calibri]"We recognize that in today’s economy that costs are a significant factor and the stock engine rule enables us to be more attractive to teams and drivers around the world,” Lewis continued. [/FONT]

When was it that the costs have not been a significant factor?

[FONT=Calibri]Since I first got involved in F1000 2 years ago, I have been asking that the rules are enforced, and that they are structured to keep the costs down......meaning limit the number and type of tires, and limit the engine spec.[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]My background in motor racing for the last 38 years had been in F Atlantis, Indy Lights, ALMS, Champ Car and Indy Car, so believe me when I say that I know how to spend a lot of money to go racing. And if one person does it, then others will follow. And then very soon you will be looking at $3K to $4K for a season of FB. And as mentioned above, it will die very quickly. [/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]The 3 major costs in racing are Travel, Personnel and Tires. You can't limit the number of personnel or their wages, but you can limit the tires, and you can help the travel costs by having a travel fund.....ie if Joe travels 100 miles, he gets $X. If Bob travels 300 miles, he gets 3 times $X.[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]This FB class is fantastic right now just .......keep it like it is but restrict the tires and enforce the rules and it will stay fantastic. [/FONT]

Can you describe them? Were they roundish, or more ovally?

[Wren]

I have had conversation with SCCA about this rule and way of measuring and they point blank told me that if the CR is above the advertised CR then the motor is illegal. You can machine the head to achieve the advertised CR but cant exceed it. (George we can talk privatly on who I spoke to and such if you wish).

Talking to "someone" at the SCCA is not binding and there are some people involved with the SCCA who have a history of giving really bad advice to people trying to figure out legality. Unless you have a paid for ruling for 2011 from the COA, it means less than nothing.

Other restricted classes have specific allowances that let them machine parts down to maximum compression ratio. FB doesn't, so you can't. George has a lot of history with the Suzuki engine and can measure the head from the outside to determine if the head has had material removed.

[billwald]

Good decision Jon! And having George Dean on staff should take care of everyone's engine concerns. We have worked with George since 2007 and his honesty, dedication, and knowledge is much appreciated. We have called him Sunday mornings, Saturday nights, etc, and he is always willing to help. George Dean is the Man!

[F1000champ]

Thank you Bill. I agree 100%

[George Dean]

I have had conversation with SCCA about this rule and way of measuring and they point blank told me that if the CR is above the advertised CR then the motor is illegal. You can machine the head to achieve the advertised CR but cant exceed it.

Who was this?? and how can I get in touch with them!!

George

[Wren]

Who was this?? and how can I get in touch with them!!

George

It's important to remember that there is no single person inside of the SCCA that has the authority to say that something like that is legal. It would take a specific rule in the GCR to allow it or a ruling from the COA.

The scca is having a problem with a person or two speaking way out of turn on the legality of things. There has even been a situation where someone told a competitor that their stuff should be legal then campaiging to have it ruled illegal when it was protested.

Ultimately whatever allof6 was told is meaningless and is just another person's opinion, regardless of who said it.

[Nicholas Belling]

It's important to remember that there is no single person inside of the SCCA that has the authority to say that something like that is legal. It would take a specific rule in the GCR to allow it or a ruling from the COA.

The scca is having a problem with a person or two speaking way out of turn on the legality of things. There has even been a situation where someone told a competitor that their stuff should be legal then campaiging to have it ruled illegal when it was protested.

Ultimately whatever allof6 was told is meaningless and is just another person's opinion, regardless of who said it.

Until money is put forward and a official protest occurs.. you wont know the answer.

[George Dean]

Last year I was asked to be the tech advisor at the Runnoffs and my interpretation of the head machining rule was alot different than that, If what this person at SCCA is the truth this will change the way I will inspect engines and more importantly the way I build them for my customers.
You can machine the head to achieve the advertised CR but cant exceed it.
Who told allof6 that??
I still feel stock is stock No metal should be removed from the head or block!

George

[Wren]

If what this person at SCCA is the truth this will change the way I will inspect engines and more importantly the way I build them for my customers.

It is not true. No one from the president of the SCCA down to any CRB member or anyone else has the authority to say it is legal.

[Daryl DeArman]

Lets say the stock CR of a given motor is listed at 12.8:1. If the CR does not equal 12.8 on every single motor off the assembly line then there is some manfuacturing tolerances with one or more variables that will affect the CR. So, if my motor is delivered with an actual CR of 12.7 and I machine something to arrive at (not exceed) the 12.8 ratio and all parts are within factory tollerances why would we want that to be illegal? If it is, don't you end up with parts bin blueprinting ($$$) to arrive at the best combination rather than just being able to machine this or that to get where you need to be?

If all parts are within factory tollerances how is to be determined that something has been done? IF, the tolerances are so precise on every part coming from the mfg then there wouldn't be any variance in the stock CR and anything that deviates from it would be illegal.

[Jnovak]

I checked on the Whistlers that are used in NASCAR & the SCCA to measure the displacement & the compression ratio & they will not currently fit in 10mm spark plug holes.

Sounds like a top quality compression tester will be good for deciding if things need to be looked into in greater depth so stock compression ratios may be the best solution.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[allof6]

Question
Good morning! Question regarding the FB engine rules. When going thru a motor we found that the head was warped and needs to be cut. The service manual says .07 limit, if we service the head .07 to bring with in spec, is this legal?

Answer

Machining the head within the specs of the service manual is permitted, but that does not allow you to exceed the maximum compression ratio or any other spec in the service manual.

Question

Thanks for the response, so basically what your saying is no because any cutting on the head would change the CR. So the CR is being used to spec / tec the engine.

Answer
Not necessarily. The Club Racing Board has gone through this exact scenario in the Touring class. They found that when you buy a crate engine from the dealer/factory, the actual compression ratio varies quite significantly. When you buy an engine from GM for the Corvette, the actual compression ratio was 10.2-10.8 even though the service manual states 10.5. You have to figure in the inconsistencies of mass produced engines.

If you start with a Corvette engine that has 10.2 and have to machine the head (within the service manual specs) to get it flat, and you bring the compression ratio up to 10.4, it is okay to run because it is under the 10.5 service manual spec. If you start with an engine that has 10.4 and machine the head to the max and bring the compression up to 10.7, then it won’t be compliant to run.

The Club Racing Board decided on an “all specs must be within the tolerances of the service manual” policy. I hope my explanation and examples are easy to understand. Let me know if that helps.

Question
What method is being used to check the engines? Cylinder pressure reading and using the specs in the manual, are they pumping the motors etc.
If using the cylinder pressure are they following the procedure in each manual or do you have your own method. If so what is it.

If using the cylinders spec in the manual and the manual states 180 to 220 how does that work? If the said motor has a advertised CR of say 12:5 to 1 than a pressure reading in the 210-220 range should take it out of that spec.


Answer

We never use the cylinder pressure for tech, there are too many variables. Compression ratio is a better method. The most common method you will find to calculate compression in the field is the whistler. The whistler is a tool that measures compression ratio through the spark plug hole, and with other various inputs.

The other method we use is the old fashion way of cc’ing the cylinder head, piston, etc.

[Wren]

Question
Good morning! Question regarding the FB engine rules. When going thru a motor we found that the head was warped and needs to be cut. The service manual says .07 limit, if we service the head .07 to bring with in spec, is this legal?

You left out an important part of the service manual. The service manual says to replace the head if it is warped, not machine it back flat. There is still no part of the GCR that specifically allows you to machine on the head.

It looks like someone needs to remind the CRB that they are not the rules interpreters and they don't set policy.

[allof6]

George has a lot of history with the Suzuki engine and can measure the head from the outside to determine if the head has had material removed.

Please provide these dimensions and the page in the manual where they are stated.

[Daryl DeArman]

The service manual says to replace the head if it is warped, not machine it back flat. There is still no part of the GCR that specifically allows you to machine on the head.

No, it doesn't. The Suzuki FSM (page 3-34) says to replace it IF it is out more than .20mm. It further refers to this as a "service limit". Meaning that if it is within that measurement it is acceptable to service. Not that they expect you to leave it alone and re-install a head that is out .007"

Also just because Suzuki lists that spec in their FSM doesn't mean other makes/models won't say something different.

More importantly if the head is within factory spec how does one prove that it has been machined by somebody other than OEM? Or the block decked? Or the crank stroked within factory tolerances, or the valves/seats cut to sit the valve more proud? (one the GSXR there are tolerances listed (page 3-38) addressing valve seat and valve cutting tolerances, clearly one could make the valve sit in the head a few thou proud if a) it flowed better that way and b) it would result in a smaller cc. and c) they felt it was worth their effort.

I'm not trying to be argumentive. Just illustrating that the rules of a stock motor are not enforceable if you want "stock" to mean untouched vs. where "stock" as in everything is within factory tolerances would be enforceable.

[Northwind]

How do you define "warped"?

Where is the form or profile control of the surface?

[allof6]

How do you define "warped"?

Where is the form or profile control of the surface?

It is usually checked with a flat bar and feeler gauges side to side or with a surface plate jig built specifically for measuring heads.