The $3,000 Zetec Solution

[rickjohnson356]

Maybe if the car had been re-homologated as FS this broo-ha-ha would have been less vindictive.

It appears to me that Thos. was asking to see if others were interested in pursuing an alternative to reduce the cost of racing. As a tinkerer, this kind of stuff has some appeal to me in order to have the satisfaction of performing a successful conversion and being able to go faster with additional engine longevity as plusses to the effort.

I wouldn't have had an issue had the modified car ran in the correct class (NOT FC). Kinda nice to see someone innovate and check the results on the track.

Granted it was a mistake to enter the car in FC and should have been RFA'd by the Tech group. It is their responsibility and they have the authority to DQ a car or at least start the process. For Tech to blatantly allow a non-compliant car is a disservice to their office and reduces the repect others have of the Tech group. Especially if they are volunteers. If you aren't going to do the job correctly, then I don't need your 'donation' of time.

Can you imagine what would happen if a corner worker did not come to the aid of a driver/car in distress just because maybe it was too far to get to him and the driver 'looked ok'? Would that worker remain in service on the corners? Would you want him to continue to 'donate his time'? No, thank you. I want someone who will perform the job they volunteered to do in a professional and competent manner.

I have witnessed a couple of incidents when either a Chief Steward or other High-PooBah has had an arrogant attitude like that which was expressed to Douglas and really had to keep from lashing out for fear of retaliation. Not fair to anyone and diminishes the respect for the position.

Some years ago, a guy ran GY instead of spec Hoosier as required at Rd Atl in CF. A quiet mention of the issue to a tech guy was made and they took over from that point to correct the situation with no further action on my part. So not all Tech folks are like those left coasters. My experience is that (at least in SEDIV) they truly want to help keep drivers safe and have a level playing field for all entrants and do not have an axe to grind when they question the prep of a car.

[Chas Shaffer]

Bryan Cohn,

Please email me with details. I do not believe you are correct in your statments about Pocono. I was the person who went to the CS weeks in advance of the Pocono National asking if we could run a restricted Zetec in FC for no points in the hope of gaining practical experience with a restricted car. The CS finally ruled that the car must run as an FA because every FC competitor was asked and one would not agree to letting the car run in FC. As I recall and I hope Bob Wright jumps in when he gets back from Watkins Glen, to aid in our data gathering the CS moved FA into the group with FC and FF. The restricted zetecs ran as FA's and were not suppose to gain points. The results on the Tri Regions site reflect this, see link below. If an error was made in points keeping then I'm glad you straightened it out but don't come down on drivers or stewards who are actaully trying to help the class. Bob Wright sent a summary of the weekends events to SCCA in which he reiterates that the car was run as an FA and did not take points. Look at the letter for more information. If you do not have it anymore I have a copy which I'll be happy to forward.

Please keep in mind this was done in the open, was discussed in the drivers meetings, was paid for by SCCA competitors and was done in the interest of bettering the class. It was not intended to tarnish the club, class or any individual. Frankly I'm disappointed but not surprised that's the view the club took.

http://www.triregionracing.org/triregionresults.html

[El Guapo]

So far I've kept out of this converstaion in the interests of self-preservation. But I just have to pipe up now! Rick Johnson I just want you to know that I take exception (as well as umbrage) to your wise crack about "left-coasters". I am in the unique position of being a driver at some of the Pacific F2000 series events, and chief steward at those events I do not drive in. Now I'm not claiming to be perfect, Rick but I always do my level best. If you ask some of the Pacific F2000 guys, they will tell you that I am not shy about handing out penalties when they are approriate. I have done everything in my power to make sure that all of our cars are legal, including those of the team I drive for. It is very easy to make generalisations about any group of people. In future, though, you may want to put your brain in gear and do a little reflection before abusing a group of people because of the alleged actions of one or two. Now you can get back to your debate.

Sincerely,
El Guapo

[race95]

Rip and gouge, Guapo. Hell, it's Friday night. I did not get to go race because of work . I may not be the only one confronted with this situation, but will make the most of it by 2nding the Guapster with respect to being reasonable in the interpretation of rules given the situation.

[Sean Maisey]

This is the kind of crap that made me sell my car. So much misinformation and self serving BS. Shame on many of you and you know who you are - grow the F up.

Chas, you are 100% correct on the Pocono thing, and Bryan you are quite misinformed. I was one of the cars that came to compare restricted Zetecs to FC. The CS rightly had second thoughts and asked both of us to reclassify as FA we agreed and no one lost any points. Simple as that. We ran our FA legal cars detuned at a disadvantage. No one was harmed except us, period. I generally respect your opionins, so I look forward to you eating humble pie on this issue - you had the facts wrong.

As for the NORPAC situation, it is unfortunate. I am interested in seeing how a carb'ed Zetec measures up. We evaluated that as an option while we worked on getting the Zetec in as a FC option. We felt that it would create too much contention, and it now appears we were right. I would like to see it as an option for the pre 1998 cars myself, but agree it should be tested fair and square as a FS.

Sean

I would like to remind everyone that open wheel racing is on life support. We need to work together and not try to divide. The SCCA may well become the Mazda Owners Club of America otherwise. Let's try to limit the negativity it is killing our base support.

[rkeen]

I would like to apolgize for any damage to the sport, SCCA, or competitors tht I caused. I did discuss running the car with some people in the SCCA and competitors at the end of last years SCCA meeting. It was presented to me as a rather mundane and not too uncommon thing as long it was done staight up without any deception. I figured sharing pit space and parking the cars 20 feet apart was pretty sraight up., No mention was made of any harm or illegality. It is certainly my fault for not doing more investigation. It is the only SCCA race at Pacific raceways, and to run FA you have to be in prospec trim and there is no regional there. If there would have been a regional it would have been run as FS as I always do. I have no use for NORPAC points so running someway without points would have been fine. Most of the people I race with in regionals anyhow so it is not important enough to me to ever do again. I just wanted to race and give the local region the entry fee. Again my apologies, sorry to not have seen all of the problems involved. I am especially worried about any problems for the SCCA, I believe that they were just trying to get people racing and I know how difficult it is here for them to survive. Most of them put out a lot of effort
to make it possible for those of us who drive.
Randy Keen

[JHandley]

Hello, All.
I would like to pose a newbie question.
I am purchasing a 1984 Reynard SF84 roller. I am trying to put together, in my thoughts, a competitive, cost effective engine, gearbox package that I can install in the car. Is the Zetec solution available for this car, and at what price can I expect ? I have seen the Zetec motors on ebay for as little as $350 but cannot find the pinto motor very readily. I do know that I cannot just buy a stock motor and stick it in, but I would like to try to way the pro's and con's of either engine, hopefully utilizing someones experience. Any thought's or advice would be most greatly appreciated.
Jeff Handley
cainesgrandad@yahoo.com

[RussMcB]

Hello, All.
I would like to pose a newbie question.
I am purchasing a 1984 Reynard SF84 roller. I am trying to put together, in my thoughts, a competitive, cost effective engine, gearbox package that I can install in the car. Is the Zetec solution available for this car, and at what price can I expect ? I have seen the Zetec motors on ebay for as little as $350 but cannot find the pinto motor very readily. I do know that I cannot just buy a stock motor and stick it in, but I would like to try to way the pro's and con's of either engine, hopefully utilizing someones experience. Any thought's or advice would be most greatly appreciated.
Jeff Handley
cainesgrandad@yahoo.com

Jeff, my opinion: I would be inclined to keep it somewhat original, since there's a chance it may appreciate in value as it becomes more desirable amoungst the vintage racers. Hard to tell about it's future value, but it was a popular chassis for some famous drivers. Might be a good vintage car some day.

[Charles Warner]

I did discuss running the car with some people in the SCCA and competitors at the end of last years SCCA meeting. It was presented to me as a rather mundane and not too uncommon thing as long it was done staight up without any deception. . . . It is the only SCCA race at Pacific raceways, and to run FA you have to be in prospec trim and there is no regional there.

Randy,

I believe the difference in what occurred here and the preceeding instances revolves around the "why" the car was raced, even though you were forthright in allowing that the car was not legal. When Chas and Sean ran the Zetec cars before they were official in FC it was to determine their innate abilities compare to other FC cars in a competition environment. This was a fact finding mission. Same thing when others have run a configuration not to the rules but to get some useful data. Always the powers-that-be were aware of the issues and intent, and points were not a consideration. Chas and Sean were made to run in FA. Other instances have occurred where the "illegal" car was withdrawn so no points, or contingiencies, were allowed. (There can also be some issues regarding contingiencies as sometimers they are awarded based on how many competitors are in the class. If a contingiency were given based on a(some) illegal car(s) filling out a class the sponsor would be most irate, and with good reason.)

I will say it is not a mundane or common thing to see and usually there are sound reasons, other than the driver simply wants a place to race his bastard car. And, the logic that the region/division needs the entry fee is not sound, IMO.

I can see no reason you should have run the car as it did not fit any class (other than FS) and you were not involved in any fact finding that would lead the Club to a better decision making posture. It was not an instance of the Club approving the inclusion of the car for "Club-oriented" reasons. It appears the reasons to run the car were personally motivated. That, Sir, is not enough.

I appreciate the apology and understand you were not aware of the ramifications such an action could cause. Probably the stink raised was escalated by other factors in the methodology used to present the exercise.

[FC63F]

If you are running in the midwest -- keep the car original and run in the Great Lakes FC/CFC Challenge powered by e-formula news.com" and run against cars built prior to 1990 and where a 84 is relatively competitive and you will not have to deal with the issue of becoming obsolete - our rules will remains table. We had our first race week end at Grattan which was drew about 10 cars for CFC and I believe 5 for FC. Join the fun. We had several Reynard 87-90 SF, a Crossle 63F, a Crossle 68F and a Swift. Come out and play. If you have not yet pruchased the Reynard -- give me a call and pick up a ready to race Crossle 63F with a fresh motor. I can be reached at 248-797-7636 or mikeep63@yahoo.com

David Keep

Crossle 63F-1
Reynard 90SF

[dawrayme]

Jeff: I think I would explore the possibilities of fitting a Z-tec if you could get the technical support to adapt it to the car. Also consider the options you have for finding a place to run with the Z-tec engine. I recently purchased a 88 VD FC/CFC and have NO intentions of ever running it in SCCA. I run it once per month at Hallett OK 2 days 10 fifteeen minute sessions for $230/ weekend. When I look at the cost of parts for the Pinto engine I hope nothing breaks. As far as resale goes there is more to life than appreciation. I have a modified FV sitting in the shop that I have spent about $5K on in the past couple of years. If it sells for $4K I will be lucky but I had a lot of fun with that car and would like to see somone else join the race experience and buy it for a starter car. Having fun costs money wether its a $20K bass boat, a race car or membership in the local country club. Besides having a Z-tec engine in your car would assure you of immediate introductions to everyone where ever you raced !! Whatever you decide just have fun racing.
Dave

[rickjohnson356]

El: (since we don't know your real name....)

Sorry that you took personal exception to the comment. I should have narrowed it down more to the Tech group who allowed the car to participate and the Chief Steward who gave the extremely arrogant and uncalled-for vitreous response to a member' s letter.

My comment should not have appeared to be such a generalization.

I can assure you that we have a couple of arrogant Poo-bahs on the right coast too. Some are not even Poo-bahs.

It just really irritates me when those folks get so power-hungry in this venture, which is a hobby after all. Perhaps the reason they remain in the amateur side of officialdom is because their attitudes and actions show such disrespect for the sport that the wouldn't last 5 minutes in a professional organization.

People should be treated with respect on each side, both entrant and official, whether at a DS, Regional or National. After all, what will be the importance of any of this be in 10 or even 5 years? We are not making world history here are we?

If we need to discuss this issue further, it might be better to do so thru email rather than do so on Apexspeed. My email address is rickjohnson@mindspring.com

[Bob Wright]

Just back from WGI...

Bryan- Chas has it as correct as I can remember. We met all the rules when the car(s) went on track. The fact was, the Chief Steward worked with us to make sure we met those rules and still were able to gather data. The cars were driven by Sean, Al Guibord, and me, entered at our own expenses with no expectation of points, trophies or anything other than to gather data for something we believe in. It was done completely in the open with the knowledge of all competitors.

There was, and continues to be, a lot of effort and money being put into adapting a Zetec MOTOR package to the FC class by a number of people. This thread has brought out some really absurd statements and some very intelligent replies by people who know a whole lot about these things.

There are two professional race series operating right now producing parity data from which club SCCA will benefit. I believe we can get it right and strengthen the FC class in the future. Throwing out red herrings like the start of this thread in public forum does nothing to help achieve that end.

[JHandley]

Dave,
I have been exploring the possibiltiy because of the availability of the zetec. It seems to me that it would take much less to get a Zetec race ready than it would to get a pinto motor race ready. From what i read in the GCR, the Zetec is a legal motor to run. Am I missing something?
Jeff

[Thomas Copeland]

Red herring? Bob, the engine costs 3 grand. It was a carb Zetec. That is fact. Nothing you or anybody else can say can change that. Accept reality.

Also, Randy, you don't have to apologize to any of these bums! What you did was fully out in the open for everyone to see. None of them were even there at Kent so anything they have to say comes straight outta their as#!

It wouldn't have made any difference how I presented the carb Zetec proposal because any way it was presented would have set certain people off.

[mark defer]

ONCE AGAIN THOMAS. yes, it costs $3k ... IF you can get all the same deals and freebies and have the same expertise as the guy that did it. other wise it is not reality. on 2nd thought, nevermind. it is obvious you just can't grasp what everyone is trying to tell you.

mark d

[Thomas Copeland]

I can grasp just fine. Just don't want to drag anyone else into this. Time to stop kicking this dead horse. On this issue, I'm never going to agreed with you and you're never going to agreed with me. Let's just end this now for everyone's sake. Hope everyone can see it's time.

[greg pizzo]

If any one is interested in a real world zetec conversion from a pinto powered car .......... I have first hand CARNAL KNOWLAGE of this process ....... we JUST finished the process ....we started from a RF98 VD .. and even that was a process (As some of you know) ... As many of you know we tried to save any $$ we could so I'm pretty confident it cant be done realisticly for less ....AND probably it would cost more as a turn key upgrade ....... even selling off pinto stuff etc .....which we did as well as much as we could
In PRO spec ........either COOPER or PACIFIC ........ can't be done CHEAP .........and no where near $3K ..........Im afraid to add it all up really..........but THAT being said it is a really nice upgrade and we are extremely glad we did !! and to all those who helped THANK YOU !!!.. you all know who you are !! and there were many !!

(the carb version might save some $$ but still its not CHEAP...but still well worth it)


now back to our regularly scheduled debate ......... if any would like to know what it took ..... feel free to email me ........eventually we will have a pretty complete document describing with pix and verbiage the entire process ... also in the proces we "LEARNED ALOT" that will be described as well

[Mark H]

Don't stop now!! What am I going to do tomorrow??
I look foward to coming home, kicking back, cracking open a cold one, putting on my farorit slippers and reading the next page of this "debate" .

Not wanting to call anyone out or corner anyone but when the former VD importer to the USA put up the prices, not that he had to, and the guy that built it ,both said that it will cost from 8K-12K to do this there is no way that the 3K # can be defended?

But it is a free country and we all can have our own ideas, even all the folke on the left coast!

[Dave Belz]

Dave,
I have been exploring the possibiltiy because of the availability of the zetec. It seems to me that it would take much less to get a Zetec race ready than it would to get a pinto motor race ready. From what i read in the GCR, the Zetec is a legal motor to run. Am I missing something?
Jeff

What you'd be missing would be the time, effort and cash that would go into converting the 84 roller, which would never be competitive vs. newer cars. An 84 Reynard would fit very well into the Great Lakes series, which is run right in your neighborhood by a GREAT group of people. Invite yourself to an event at Waterford, Mid Ohio, IRP, or Gingerman ASAP, I'm sure somebody in the area has an extra crew pass or two available. Every person I ever met racing back there was always more than willing to help me with information for both preperation and driving. Spend the conversion dollar$$$$ on the track, not in the garage (the grins are bigger on the track for most of us !)

Ditch this thread, and start following the newer one on Zeetech Solutions...

Dave

[JHandley]

thanks, dave
I did jump to the other thread and also have decided to keep the car as close to original as possible. This being my first car, I want to put it together RIGHT and gain experience. I may move up to a newer car in the future, say maybe a year or 2, but for now I want to learn as much as possible about the reyanard. I'm sure anything that I learn along the way can be applied elsewhere. I'll just keep looking for the right parts to keep this one original.
The pinto motors are not in great abundance from what I have seen, but weighing it all out it is the best way to go for me. Anyone out there that can share resources would be a welcome contact indeed.
Thanks
Jeff

[Greg Mercurio]

So...does anybody know what heads will bolt up to a Pinto bottom end? Seems like UN-restricting the Pinto has a LOT MORE potential applications than do conversions of older chassis to Zetec power.

[Craig Henry]

Cosworth YB. S2’s used this engine configuration in the ARCL series years back. I think Ford sold about 20,000+ in various street cars. Seems to be a popular kit car motor in Europe. Only the aux. shaft needs to be changed (or modified) to accept a different gear (if I remember correctly.)

[FC63F]

Feel free to give me a call or an e-mail - I am local to Detroit and race both the Waterford Hills Series (6 week ends a year) and the Great Lakes Challenge. It is a real good group of people and we do help each other out. In the short term, if you want to come out -- my team partner and I are racing at Waterford on the 24th and Mid Ohio on the 1st and 2nd of July. On the 24th, going to have to decide weather to bring the Crossle or the Reynard but At Mid Ohio I will bring the Reynard out assuming I get it finished. I can be reached at 248-797-7636 or at mikeep63@yahoo.com. I would be happy to add you to the crew list for either event

David Keep

[Thomas Copeland]

Mark, even us CRAZY PEOPLE gotta take a vacation sometime! You guys actually worn me out. Didn't think it could be done myself. Call me luney, but I still say a $3K carb Zetec conversion is possible! Okay, it MIGHT actually cost $4k.... (also, I think he was referring to buying a "complete package" of approved parts from the engine builders when he said it would cost 8K or more). I guess if I wanted to run FS I could build a (cheap) carb Zetec (I did have a year of machine shop in high school). Anyway, time out!

[Greg Mercurio]

Thomas: My mom used to have a saying for times like this: "When the dirt's hittin' ya in the head, stop diggin'.

Have you bothered to price a pair of Webers or the manifold? 2/3'rds of the $3K is already gone.

Jeez, I admire your tenacity, but ya gotta give it up!

Craig: Thanks for the YB information, I thought the picture in the Burton Power catalog looked like it was on a 2L block.

[Thomas Copeland]

I was only posting to Mark (and it was meant as a joke)...maybe I should have done it offline you I knew you were going to...Anyway..didn't I give up? Didn't I write let's stop kicking this dead horse? -the other thread on Zetec solutions looks interesting....Jon's post really made me rethink things.

[Mark H]

Thomas I love ya brotha! Actualy My engine guy had recomended putting on the duel webbers and a cossie cyl head to run FS. So I can see the savings in running a whole Zetec engine with carbs VS buying a cossie cyl head whatever the cost?

PS that engine that YOU let run is a cool set up. Now get out there and clean up the rest of the cheatin on the left coast!.......But don't sell that car it is way cool. Race IT!

[Shep]

Just because we shouldn't let a good thread die...

Is this the manifold you'd need?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...%3ASS%3AUS%3A1

[Larry]

Your 84 Reynard uses a Mk 9 Hewland. The Zetecs bolt up to an LD-200 Hewland. The Mk 9 provides some suspension pick-up points for your car. The LD would change these, so you would need to redesign the suspension. But that's OK, because you'd probably have to redesign the engine bay, too, since the Zetec is a different size than the Pinto.

If your objective is to get racing for a reasonable amount of money, your best bet BY FAR is to go for the original equipment used on the Reynard. If, however, you want to prove your talent as an engineer by totally modifying a 20+ year old car, and you are willing to put in hundreds of hours to design and fabricate new components and do it in the hopes that the result will be a car that handles and performs reasonably well, then go for the Zetec.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Chas Shaffer]

In answer to your question, that is not the manifold currently legal in SCCA.

Larry, why wouldn't the Zetec engine bolt up to the oil tank on a Reynard? It has the same bolt pattern as the Pinto. Although the late model VD's use an LD200 the gear box is separate from the oil tank/bell housing. If the zetec bolts straight up to the VD bell housing it should bolt up to the reynard. I would think that would be a cool project especially with a Ryenard. I'd bet a lot of the VD conversion parts would be the same (header, all engine parts, ecu, harnesses, alternator, fuel pump, air intake) you'd have to make oil line, water lines, front engine mount, starter brackets and some other bits but nothing compared to say an F1000 conversion. I'd love to have an 87 or newer Reynard with an engine that'll got 8000 - 10,000 miles, what a great club car!!

[Purple Frog]

Chas,

A 87 or newer Reynard... maybe

A 84 Reynard... not.