FV operational costs

[holmberg]

Over on the General Formula Car Discussion topic, I've been conducting a survey of operational costs for each class. Here I'm only interested in costs that differ significantly between the classes, and not, for example, entrance fees, hotel, food, etc.

Drivers from some classes have responded with data for their class, and the result is a spreadsheet in Google docs.

Here's what I have for this class. If you have changes, please reply below, and I will update the spreadsheet.

Class name: FV

Engine make: VW

Engine model: H4

Displacement: 1200

Power at crank, HP: 60

Torque at crank, ft-lbs: 70

Weight with driver, lbs: 1,025

Purchase new, $: 26,000

Tires set, $: 766

Tire competitive heat cycles: 10

Engine rebuild, $: 1,500

Engine competitive hours: 53

Fuel $/gallon: 3.50

Fuel gallons/hour: 6

Brake pads set, $: 500

Brake pads hours: 13

Gearbox hours: ?
Gearbox rebuild, $: ?
Other operational costs, $:

Thanks,

Greg Holmberg

[Chris Robson]

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the effort in putting something like this together. My only comment is that I think that the tire cost might need to be broken down by series entered, or type. We have more than enough threads debating tires and I am not looking to revisit that here. Rather, if you are looking for a true representation, I feel it is important to differentiate as to what type of tire provides how many competitive heat cycles, and at what cost.

Again not to start a new tire discussion, rather just looking to help you provide the best and most accurate info. Please feel free to contact me to discuss.

[Chris Elwell]

I think it's highly inaccurate to list the cost of a FV at $26k. No new person is going to build a brand new car. You can get a great used car for $7-10k. Hoosiers are closer to $900 a set I thought. Falkens for Challenge Cup are $400 and last 3 years. A lot of people use 110 octane from the track, so fuel cost is ~$8.50 a gallon.

[nhJohn]

Over on the General Formula Car Discussion topic, I've been conducting a survey of operational costs for each class. Here I'm only interested in costs that differ significantly between the classes, and not, for example, entrance fees, hotel, food, etc.

Drivers from some classes have responded with data for their class, and the result is a spreadsheet in Google docs.

Here's what I have for this class. If you have changes, please reply below, and I will update the spreadsheet.

Class name: FV

Engine make: VW

Engine model: H4

Displacement: 1200

Power at crank, HP: 60

Torque at crank, ft-lbs: 70

Weight with driver, lbs: 1,025

Purchase new, $: 26,000

Tires set, $: 766

Tire competitive heat cycles: 10

Engine rebuild, $: 1,500

Engine competitive hours: 53

Fuel $/gallon: 3.50

Fuel gallons/hour: 6

Brake pads set, $: 500

Brake pads hours: 13

Other operational costs, $:

Thanks,

Greg Holmberg

I would ADD a line item:
PURCHASE USED: $8,000 to $10,000

The reason, - very, very few cars are purchased new. You would be missing the point of doing real class comparisons because in the real world, 90% (my guess) of the FV's are used.

John

[crypt0zink]

VSCDA's Vintage Formula Vee is very popular series in the midwest, running the Monoposto's Vintage FV rules. We have 25+ car fields and only FV run groups.

https://www.vscda.org/

Class name: Vintage FV - Monoposto Rules
Engine make: VW
Engine model: standard VW 1200 powerplant
Displacement: 1192 cc engine dimensions
Power at crank, HP: 55 estimate with Fan & Generator.
Torque at crank, ft-lbs: 70??
Weight with driver, lbs: Minimum weight, as qualified or raced without driver, is 825pounds
Purchase used, $8000 to $15000
Tires set, $: Vintage Hoosiers and Dunlops run around $1000 for a set.
Tire competitive heat cycles: Vintage Hoosiers & Dunlops last more than 1 season and many driver's get multiple years of use.
Engine rebuild, $: 1,500
Engine competitive hours: Since we run Fans & Generator our motors don't turn more than 6000 rpm and last longer between rebuilds.
Fuel $/gallon: $8.00-$9.00 gal for 110
Fuel gallons/hour: 6
Brake pads set, $: I don't run Carbotech and can do all 4 corners for under $150.
Brake pads hours: 13
Other operational costs, $:

Monoposto Rules
http://www.monoposto.com/pdf%20Files...cification.pdf

Last weekends VSCDA race - 2017 VSCDA Vintage Grand Prix AuGrattan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz6wsI45q5g

[Daryl DeArman]

I believe 53 hours of TBO is extremely optimistic. Maybe I was an outlier. I also was paying a bit more than $1500 for a rebuild, and that was more than 10 years ago.

Perhaps more folks currently racing a FV can chime in.

Tire cost would vary a great deal depending on how one defines "competitive heat cycles" and what series they run.
The vintage tires I ran (Dunlops) were almost $1000/set and I was getting 12 heat cycles (3 weekends). Switching to the American Racer didn't yield any additional competitive heat cycles but they were less than half the cost. Folks getting 2 weekends out of a set of Hoosiers are spending closer to $150/heat cycle on tires.

[crypt0zink]

Tire cost would vary a great deal depending on how one defines "competitive heat cycles" and what series they run.
The vintage tires I ran (Dunlops) were almost $1000/set and I was getting 12 heat cycles (3 weekends). Switching to the American Racer didn't yield any additional competitive heat cycles but they were less than half the cost. Folks getting 2 weekends out of a set of Hoosiers are spending closer to $150/heat cycle on tires.

This post has nothing to do with the FV tire debate, just my experience with Vintage FV operational costs.

I've been running the Hoosier Vintage TD (44405 & 44408) for the past 5 seasons with VSCDA.

Here's my current example of vintage tire life:

Last Saturday 8/19/17 - used set of Hoosier Vintage TD that had 5-6 race weekends (new Spring 2016). I qualified on the Pole with the best time for the Heat, Sprint 1&2 race, finished 2nd for all 3 races. This set of tire hasn't dropped off and I plan to use them next race at RA.

Purchased from Bob Woodman Tires, delivered to Gingerman Raceway 2016 - $1004 + mounting costs.

Most Vintage drivers have 2 sets of tires and rotate them during the weekend. A large group of Vintage FV drivers that use Dunlops and will change to Hoosier Vintage TD for rain. I only run Hoosiers and have 3 sets (fresh/scrubbed, 2016 tires & spares).

Thanks for putting this information out there, I hope this post clarifies the Vintage side of FV costs. I've got tons of observations of the difference between the Vintage Hoosiers & Dunlops, but that needs a new thread..

[holmberg]

I think it's highly inaccurate to list the cost of a FV at $26k. No new person is going to build a brand new car. You can get a great used car for $7-10k. Hoosiers are closer to $900 a set I thought. Falkens for Challenge Cup are $400 and last 3 years. A lot of people use 110 octane from the track, so fuel cost is ~$8.50 a gallon.

Yes, this is true for all the classes. Many people have requested I add a column for used purchase price, and I have done so.

I put your number of $10,000 in for FV.

For apples-to-apples comparison, I would still like a number to purchase an FV new. Do you have that number?

I found the Hooiser tires for $185 (43336) and $198 (43352) at http://competitionmotorsport.com That comes to $766 for a set. Not including mounting and balancing.

How many heat cycles are you getting from the Hoosiers?

Fuel: do you have to use the 110? What is the cheapest fuel option?

Can you confirm the other numbers I have above?

[jwickert3]

Yes, this is true for all the classes. Many people have requested I add a column for used purchase price, and I have done so.

I put your number of $10,000 in for FV.

For apples-to-apples comparison, I would still like a number to purchase an FV new. Do you have that number?

I found the Hooiser tires for $185 (43336) and $198 (43352) at http://competitionmotorsport.com That comes to $766 for a set. Not including mounting and balancing.

How many heat cycles are you getting from the Hoosiers?

Fuel: do you have to use the 110? What is the cheapest fuel option?

Can you confirm the other numbers I have above?

About a year ago Fred Clark gave me an estimate of 12,000 for a chassis without VW components.

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[holmberg]

About a year ago Fred Clark gave me an estimate of 12,000 for a chassis without VW components.

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OK, but how much for a new, complete, professionally-built, turn-key race car?

[Hardingfv32]

1) I thought your price in the first post was very high but if you are starting with a $12K kit (a Vortech is in the same ballpark) then you can easily get to $25K if you have it built for you.

2) The engines work every well on unleaded regular gas.

3) The 'average' competitor gets 12 heat cycles on a set of Hoosiers.



Brian

[Chris Elwell]

Yes, this is true for all the classes. Many people have requested I add a column for used purchase price, and I have done so.

I put your number of $10,000 in for FV.

For apples-to-apples comparison, I would still like a number to purchase an FV new. Do you have that number?

I found the Hooiser tires for $185 (43336) and $198 (43352) at http://competitionmotorsport.com That comes to $766 for a set. Not including mounting and balancing.

How many heat cycles are you getting from the Hoosiers?

Fuel: do you have to use the 110? What is the cheapest fuel option?

Can you confirm the other numbers I have above?

I don't know what a new one would cost, but probably around $25k is a good estimate.
I was including mounting and balancing in the tire cost.
I haven't run Hoosiers in a few years until this year I started again, but 10-12 is a good estimate for heat cycles.
You don't have to use 110, but most people I know do. Av gas is also possible, around $3.50 a gallon last time I got it.

[veeracer98]

Who gets 12 heat cycles out of a set of Hoosiers? Four heat cycles on brand new Hoosiers at Mid Ohio were shot when I ran them at Gingerman. Hoosiers answer was "mid Ohio is hard on tires"

[Hardingfv32]

I did use the word 'average'.

'Average' probably does not include a Major event competition at MO. Any chance your car setup and/or driving style are hard on your tires? Do you rotate your tires on the rims after 3-4 heat cycles?

MO might have been a good track to use 3 front tires in rotation to maintain balance with the pair of rear tires. How about post curing the left front to make it more durable? This would be similar to a couple heat cycles but without the wear.

Brian

[jpetillo]

My experience...

Almost everyone I know uses Av Gas for FVs.

$1,500 is tops for a typical engine refresh.

10-12 heat cycles is average for the current Hoosiers for qualifying and being raced.

$10K is high for a typical used Vee. $6-9K is more typical.

Brakes - some pay $500 for a set, but the average racer doesn't, and most who run these run them front only. Maybe the Porterfields are a better average cost at $79 + 79 = $158 - from their web site. These should last two years would be my guess - mine did. Many folks run stock pads in the rear at about $20-25. I'd go with $158 for an average price, but suspect it's lower, and for 2 years.

[Jphoenix]

OK, but how much for a new, complete, professionally-built, turn-key race car?

i built a new chassis last year, re-used all of the parts from my Lynx, except the chassis. Cost was $1000 in steel and aluminum (belly pan) including welding wire and tri-mix. I fabricated a new aft body part as I changed the rear chassis significantly, so that's another $1000.

Figure 120 man hours total, multiply times whatever fabricator man hours are worth? Shop rate of $200/hr and there you have your $12 to 14k for a chassis, less VW parts.

[Jphoenix]

$1,500 is tops for a typical engine refresh.

10-12 heat cycles is average for the current Hoosiers for qualifying and being raced.

$10K is high for a typical used Vee. $6-9K is more typical.

a nationals level driver I know told me you're not going to buy a nationally competitive FV for less than $15k and likely more than that.

Not sure a rebuild on a runoffs motor will only be $1500, one of my regional friends here just paid $2400, not a national motor.

Don't know what national level manifolds are going for these days, but I recall hearing a number around $1600 from Noble a couple years ago. Maybe more for the magical monster manifold?

I'm not a runoffs level competitor, so my costs are much lower than a national level, American Racers are half the cost of Hoosiers and last many times longer. My regional motor rebuilds are $2k including shipping, brakes are not cheap but last a couple years. Rear drums from Rich Pare were $300, but again last years in my car, not sure how long the last in a runoffs car, Rich?

Bottom line is that there's a big difference in cost between an old regional guy (me) and a runoffs hot shoe. I think Holmberg is looking for runoffs level costs?

[holmberg]

Bottom line is that there's a big difference in cost between an old regional guy (me) and a runoffs hot shoe. I think Holmberg is looking for runoffs level costs?

Yes. Nationally competitive is the scenario.

[Chris Robson]

...If you are talking Nationally competitive, One set of Hoosiers a weekend, at a minimum. Also at that point the car and its parts become a commodity. I think that if you continue to gather data, you will see what the majority of competitors are willing to spend to race. I believe that is really what you are looking for, what is the average cost per class that current competitors are willing to spend.

Running at the front in any class is expensive and for those who truly want to win, they will spend whatever it takes....I feel that most people will spend what they can (barely)afford to run as close to the front as that amount of budget will allow because at this level we are all doing this because we love the sport.

Focus on that, take the averages of all the data, provide the results based upon on how many respond and continue to revise.

[jpetillo]

Yes. Nationally competitive is the scenario.

It's interesting how the prices vary so much from different peoples' experiences. Certainly there is a perspective difference.

With regard to "Nationally competitive", are we talking about no holds barred costs, the average Majors racer's cost, or what? I can see that we're all answering to different standards.

I haven't heard of a $1600 manifold in years. Maybe they are back up to $1000. But that is a one time cost and usually comes on the Nationally competitive car. I assume that Nationally competitive means that the car has all the components.

Also, for the price of a car are we talking about the car along with the trailer and 10 years of accumulated spares, a car with a reasonable number of spares, or just the complete car?

I think the numbers up top are not bad, except that (almost) no one buys new, so has limited relevance for someone considering costs and getting into FV. The additional of typically paid is better, or perhaps a range. I think the brake prices and hours combination is high as well.

[B Farnham]

a nationals level driver I know told me you're not going to buy a nationally competitive FV for less than $15k and likely more than that.

Not sure a rebuild on a runoffs motor will only be $1500, one of my regional friends here just paid $2400, not a national motor.

Don't know what national level manifolds are going for these days, but I recall hearing a number around $1600 from Noble a couple years ago. Maybe more for the magical monster manifold?

I'm not a runoffs level competitor, so my costs are much lower than a national level, American Racers are half the cost of Hoosiers and last many times longer. My regional motor rebuilds are $2k including shipping, brakes are not cheap but last a couple years. Rear drums from Rich Pare were $300, but again last years in my car, not sure how long the last in a runoffs car, Rich?

Bottom line is that there's a big difference in cost between an old regional guy (me) and a runoffs hot shoe. I think Holmberg is looking for runoffs level costs?

I bought the car that finished on the podium at the Runoffs last year for 12k with spares. Have won a few majors with it this year.

My engine rebuild was only a tad over $1500.

Between my father and I the best manifold we have we got a few years ago for around $1000.

Tires usually you need a new set every weekend and you use the set from the previous weekend for qualifying. That doesnt mean the tires are shot after two weekends, they can be sold to a regional racer or used for testing.

With brakes it depends on what pads you're running as far as drum abuse goes. Some guys are still running old german drums and have gotten many years out of them. Flipping the pads after each weekend really prolongs pad life as well.

There are some great deals out there for nationally competitive FVs. A good aero car with a great engine and skilled driver can run up front at any national.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

This is a survey for all SCCA class. The quote was for a new National competitive FV which reduces a lot of the variables. New cars are commonly available in other class. Todays average SCCA competitor does not like to start out with a inexpensive used car requiring rework/high maintaince. Now this might put FV in a bad light as the FV community likes to think of itself as a 'less' expensive do it yourself class.

Give the man what he wants and do not be so defensive. This thread is not going to change anyones opinion of SCCA FV.

Brian

[FVRacer21]

...If you are talking Nationally competitive, One set of Hoosiers a weekend, at a minimum. ......

I was told Roger S won 5 or 6 races this year on the same set of tires. Then he will probably use them at Indy for practice. Some items like pistons, are in the car for every minute of running - but I think ALL competitors manage tires so you CAN run a new set every weekend, but the 12 heat cycle is probably a fair number - hopefully even better once we get a spec tires.

New cars at $26K on paper only, the depreciation is great but then they settle in and hold value as long as they are maintained.

53 hours between bottom end rebuilds may be optimistic, most engines are rebuilt to incorporate improvements, rules changes, or damage (run low on oil or potential crash damage) before they need to from wearing out.

But $1500 is not unusual, but shipping costs can affect your price...

Knowing what you are buying is important - I started working on a buyer's guide to FV - with a checklist of what you get and what it costs to get to a top level. The more you get up front, the less you spend later on.....

Chris Z

[holmberg]

It's interesting how the prices vary so much from different peoples' experiences. Certainly there is a perspective difference.

With regard to "Nationally competitive", are we talking about no holds barred costs, the average Majors racer's cost, or what? I can see that we're all answering to different standards.

Yes, good point. I should have defined my scenario better. This has created some confusion.

It's true that in all classes you can go crazy spending money. Also, in some classes there is a wide range of car preparation. For example, Spec Miata runs from $5,000 back-markers that are on the verge of breaking down to $50,000 pro-shop-built beauties with 100% new parts and a $15,000 engine. At the other end of the spectrum is something like FE where the cars are identical and every one is capable of winning the Run-offs.

There has to be a way to level the definition of preparation so we can have an apple-to-apples comparison. I would propose that we compare classes based on cars that prepared well enough to win a Majors race or be in the top 5 of the Run-offs (other than the driver, of course). But not a no-holds-barred car. In some classes such a car may be beyond the norm for the class, with many drivers just having fun running mid-field in regional races (that's where I used to be in my Club FF), while in other classes it may be common to be so well prepared.

But I think this is the only way to make a fair comparison between the classes.

Thoughts?

[holmberg]

Now this might put FV in a bad light as the FV community likes to think of itself as a 'less' expensive do it yourself class.

FV is doing pretty well on operational costs in the spreadsheet. Currently at $694 per weekend. Only two other classes are coming out cheaper--FST ($446) and FF ($593). Maybe Thunder Roadster, but the data there is from a website and not the TR community, and so hasn't been verified.

And, that's for a nationally competitive FV. I'm sure you can have a lot of fun at the regional level for even less.

Just be glad you're not driving a Spec Miata and spending $1,425 per weekend! Plus food, towing, hotel, entry fee, etc. Of course, many of them drive around mid-pack at regionals for lot less than that.

[Daryl DeArman]

Tire cost would vary a great deal depending on how one defines "competitive heat cycles" and what series they run.

There has to be a way to level the definition of preparation so we can have an apple-to-apples comparison. I would propose that we compare classes based on cars that prepared well enough to win a Majors race or be in the top 5 of the Run-offs (other than the driver, of course). But not a no-holds-barred car.

Prepared well enough to be top 5 in the Run-Offs in most classes means you don't get to make too many/any concessions.

Engine rebuilds for less than $1500? What are they getting for that where they still consider it a rebuild?

[jpetillo]

Prepared well enough to be top 5 in the Run-Offs in most classes means you don't get to make too many/any concessions.

Engine rebuilds for less than $1500? What are they getting for that where they still consider it a rebuild?

Yes & Yes. I think we are talking about a refresh, no new pistons & cylinders for that.

[Hardingfv32]

Just be glad you're not driving a Spec Miata and spending $1,425 per weekend!

Operational costs per weekend … without the amortization cost of original purchase…. have to be equal between a FV and SCCA SM. Your cost estimates for engine rebuilds are very problematic with too many variables undefined. There is no reason that a rebuild of equal detail/complexity would be any different between a FV and SM.

Frankly there are many classes where the initial purchase cost …. and also resale value… are again very problematic with too many variables undefined.

The lack definition in your requested info might make the whole effort pointless. A good survey does not originate just from a good idea… it takes a well prepared plan.

Brian

[holmberg]

Operational costs per weekend … without the amortization cost of original purchase…. have to be equal between a FV and SCCA SM. Your cost estimates for engine rebuilds are very problematic with too many variables undefined. There is no reason that a rebuild of equal detail/complexity would be any different between a FV and SM.

Frankly there are many classes where the initial purchase cost …. and also resale value… are again very problematic with too many variables undefined.

The lack definition in your requested info might make the whole effort pointless. A good survey does not originate just from a good idea… it takes a well prepared plan.

Brian

I'm not sure why "they have to be equal" between FV and SM--they're very different engines, whose parts have different costs, life-spans, and levels of stress in these applications.

As it stands in the spreadsheet at the moment, FV engine costs are $94/weekend for FV and $208/weekend for SM. Sum of the measured items for FV are currently $694/weekend for FV and $1,287/weekend for SM. There are clearly differences across the classes in the five operational costs being measured here (tires, engine, gearbox, fuel, brake pads).

A lot of people have intuitions about their class that turn out to be incorrect--I'm trying to get the intuitions out of the discussion and move it to something more reliable: measurements. Yes, I agree, a good survey must be well-defined to be meaningful, otherwise each person is giving a number with different assumptions.

In discussions where it's clear there have been different understandings of what is being measured (tends to happen in classes with a wide range of preparation, such as SM), I have jumped into the discussion to clear things up, as I did over at mazdaracers.com.

Let me try it here. Imagine you have a pro-built engine producing power that is competitive in a Majors race or the Run-offs. It produces this power for some amount of time, and then starts to fall off, and at some point is no longer competitive. You take that engine back to the pro builder, who does whatever is necessary for that particular engine (some classes more, some less) to make it competitive again. How much does that "rebuild", for lack of a better word, cost? And how many hours did the engine operate competitively since the last rebuild? I think that's pretty good functional definition that works across classes and that people can easily understand.

As for car depreciation (purchase cost minus resale value), yes, I did not take that into consideration. It's complicated and difficult to calculate, and in most cases the data is not out there, since you don't really know the market until you sell the car. It's an important part of a car's total cost of ownership, but it's more than I can handle, so buyers of a particular class will have to explore that on their own. I did at least add a "purchase, used" column to the table.

Overall, I am not trying to calculate the total cost of ownership. I was upfront about that--I'm only looking for weekend costs that vary significantly between classes. I think this, as incomplete as it is, is still useful to many prospective buyers.

If you have concrete and specific suggestions for improving the survey, let me know, and I will do my best to incorporate them.


Greg

[problemchild]

In any class, but specifically those without spec engines, it is usually the upgrades and updates that cost the money, rather than the "rebuild". A top-5 Runoff FV engine with good pistons & bores, and with good valves & guides, and the latest tweeked heads, intake, and carb, may be rebuilt, complete with dyno-tuning, for under $1500. A half-ass regional engine with scuzzy crank, worn out pistons, bores, rings, valves, guides, etc, may cost 3X as much to "rebuild", even before you upgrade the heads, intake, or carb. While charting costs in a comparative study, is a great idea, it certainly is dependent on what you start with. Sometimes, buying a $5K FV is the best bargain in the world ...... sometimes not so much.
About the only constant in the comparable chart for FVs, will be amortized tire costs if running the Challenge Cup series.

[Daryl DeArman]

In any class, but specifically those without spec engines, it is usually the upgrades and updates that cost the money, rather than the "rebuild". A top-5 Runoff FV engine with good pistons & bores, and with good valves & guides, and the latest tweeked heads, intake, and carb, may be rebuilt, complete with dyno-tuning, for under $1500.

Agreed, good points.

A lot of it boils down to personal preference as well. In my case, I had parts (heads, manifold and carb) as good as anybody I was racing against, so none of my engine costs included such upgrades.

When I chose to have my engine rebuilt/freshened I had zero interest in putting any questionable/marginal parts back in it. Even when it resulted in a "discussion" with my engine builder about what was/wasn't necessary The things that move inside that engine are cheap. When so much is invested (time/money) in a race weekend, trying to save a buck by reusing wear items isn't prudent in my opinion.

I have the motor out, I am bringing/shipping it to my builder, I have to put it back in. Do I want a DNF because I chose to have a $1300 rebuild instead of a $1800 rebuild? Buying 2 sets of rings so that I can run a different brand compression ring than the rest of the pack adds a bit to the cost. Making sure that after valves are re-lapped that rocker arms and pushrods are optimized to get max lift takes time/labor. How much time engine builder spends to get the spring seat pressure and installed heights where they want them takes time/labor too.

[Hardingfv32]

… It produces this power for some amount of time, and then starts to fall off, and at some point is no longer competitive...

Here is a clear case of how you have added an 'undefined' variable even as you attempt to clarify the engine rebuild criteria. I would state that in 'almost' all cases engine performance falls because of the ring package and/or valve/valve seat condition. There are other possibilities but they would be considered abnormal. I would propose that all engine rebuilds be specified as re-ringing. valve job and bearing replacement. That this be done at 40 hrs so as to remove the time between rebuild variable.

Under these conditions SM would be less expensive than FV for an engine rebuild. FV's rings are more expensive as they are not a stock configuration like SM. In general FV operate under higher temps and stress than the 30 year newer SM engine. FV also operate at +50% above the stock redline which is not the case with SM. There is no way SM is more expensive to operate than FV.

Brian

[Daryl DeArman]

There is no way SM is more expensive to operate than FV.

Ba ha ha ha.

Rebuilds for a SM are in the $4K range. . and why many on the grid will just replace with a j/y motor as opposed to a pro rebuild. You are still looking at north of $1500 if labor to R&R is free by the time you add fluids.

. . . further you can't just specify all classes get 40 TBO and includes rings, valve job, and bearings. I'm betting the FE and SRF guys go a whole lot longer than that. I'm also betting that the FM guys don't replace rings or get a valve job either.

[holmberg]

I added gearbox cost to the spreadsheet late in the game.

Any thoughts on how long the FV gearbox lasts and how much to rebuild it?

[Daryl DeArman]

I added gearbox cost to the spreadsheet late in the game.

Any thoughts on how long the FV gearbox lasts and how much to rebuild it?

Forever. All that torque and 4 gear changes a lap aren't too hard on bits and pieces.

[problemchild]

One of the negatives of FV is that you change gear ratios by changing transmissions. So a top travelling guy may have several different transmissions. Someone who just runs at their local track may have one. Without crash damage, they should last many years. So, again a variable for the chart ...... some racers will have zero transmission costs in a decade ..... others will have 4X the investment in transmissions, and spend many hours of labor swapping them in and out.

[Daryl DeArman]

One of the negatives of FV is that you change gear ratios by changing transmissions. So a top travelling guy may have several different transmissions. Someone who just runs at their local track may have one. Without crash damage, they should last many years. So, again a variable for the chart ...... some racers will have zero transmission costs in a decade ..... others will have 4X the investment in transmissions, and spend many hours of labor swapping them in and out.

What Greg said, with the caveat that there are entire divisions where all the tracks require the same box.

[jwickert3]

I added gearbox cost to the spreadsheet late in the game.

Any thoughts on how long the FV gearbox lasts and how much to rebuild it?

I recently had a short box rebuilt. You can expect about 800-900.

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[FVRacer21]

While the last posts point out how different the classes have evolved - some have engines that last forever, others transmissions, etc., it is a great exercise in that it makes people really think about the costs associated with the class.

Re transmissions, Formula First has a single spec ratio transmission, FV probably could follow now that we have engines that tolerate revs better. A few hundred less revs over the course of a season might stretch the engine life too.

ChrisZ

[Matt Clark]

A few hundred less revs over the course of a season might stretch the engine life too.

this is a valid point... we have found engine life increases in Challenge Cup due to the slightly larger tire diameter & also means no need for a long box anywhere.