Operational cost differences

[holmberg]

In a discussion on dsrforum, someone said that:

... there is almost no difference in operational and building costs for FB, FF, P2, F600, FC, etc.

In my opinion, there are obvious differences in costs between the classes.

So I set out to prove it by quantifying those costs. I ask for your help to estimate those costs for classes you are familiar with.

Here I'm only looking at the predictable costs that vary between the classes. Some costs are more or less the same between classes, such as towing, hotel, food, entry fee, and so on. I am ignoring those costs.

Some costs are personal choice, and not inherent in the class, such as how much you choose to spend on your tow vehicle or RV, or paying people to support you. I am ignoring those too.

Some costs, while having some correlation to the class, are unpredictable and so difficult to quantify, such as crash repairs or engine failures. I am ignoring those too.

That leaves me with:

• tires
• engine rebuild (by a professional)
• fuel
• brake pads
• other, depending on the class

"Other" could include, for example, gearbox replacement if your class has a weak gearbox.

I guess there are other smaller but predictable maintenance costs, such as oil changes, brake rotors, brake fluid, etc. If you think a particular class has above or below average expenses in these areas, let me know, and I will include them.

Did I miss any significant costs that differ between classes?

I took a stab at the costs. Some of these are just place-holders when I had no idea. So don't be afraid to correct me.

I've also included some other class comparisons, such as horsepower, torque, weight, ratio=(hp+torque)/weight, lap time (record at Thunderhill), and purchase price new. If a class no longer has new cars available for purchase, please send me the price when they were last available new and a year, and I will use an inflation calculator to get a new cost in today's dollars.

I have also made these assumptions:

• 25 minutes per session
• 10 sessions per weekend (including testing on Friday)
• 10 weekends per year

Here's what I came up with for many of the popular classes (sorted by lap time):

Car	Engine make	Engine model	Displacement	Power	Torque	Weight	Ratio	Lap time	Purchase new	Cost per weekend		Tires Set	Tire Cycles	tire cost Weekend	Engine rebuild	Engine hours	engine cost Weekend	fuel cost/gal	fuel gal/hour	fuel Weekend	brake pads Cost	brake pads Hours	brake pads Weekend	Other Weekend
P1	Suzuki	GSX R	1000	197	86	1,000	3.53	01:36.6	$90,000	$1,374		$1,006	20	$503	$5,000	42	$500	$10.00	8	$333	$188	21	$38
FA							#DIV/0!	01:38.5		#DIV/0!				#DIV/0!			#DIV/0!			$0			#DIV/0!
FB	Suzuki	GSX R	1000	180	86	1,000	3.76	01:40.0	$60,000	$879		$950	20	$475	$2,500	42	$250	$3.50	8	$117	$188	21	$38
P2	Suzuki	GSX R	1000	180	86	1,000	3.76	01:42.2	$80,000	$907		$1,006	20	$503	$2,500	42	$250	$3.50	8	$117	$188	21	$38
FC	Ford	Zetec	2000	160	150	1,200	3.87	01:45.0	$70,000	$904		$950	20	$475	$4,000	125	$133	$7.00	8	$233	$188	13	$63
FE	Mazda	MZR	2300	171	168	1,270	3.75	01:45.6	$60,000	$869		$720	20	$360	$6,350	125	$212	$7.00	8	$233	$322	21	$64
FM	Mazda	Rotary	1300	180	180	1,350	3.75	01:49.2		$972		$970	20	$485	$6,000	125	$200	$7.00	8	$233	$160	13	$53
S2	Ford	Pinto	2000	145	135	1,335	4.77	01:49.9	$60,000	$1,175		$950	20	$475	$4,000	42	$400	$7.00	8	$233	$200	13	$67
F600	Suzuki	GSX R	600	116	48	875	5.34	01:53.1	$25,000	$709		$730	20	$365	$2,000	42	$200	$3.50	8	$117	$110	17	$28
NP01	Mazda	MZR	2000	185	145	1,725	5.23	01:53.7	$86,000	$566		$907	40	$227	$5,000	125	$167	$3.50	8	$117	$278	21	$56
FF	Honda	Fit	1500	115	100	1,110	5.16	01:53.8	$60,000	$645		$764	20	$382	$2,500	125	$83	$3.50	8	$117	$188	13	$63
CFF	Ford	Kent	1600	115	100	1,110	5.16	01:54.8	$30,000	$876		$490	30	$163	$5,000	50	$417	$7.00	8	$233	$188	13	$63
SRF3	Ford	Sigma	1600	140	131	1,670	6.16	01:58.8	$45,000	$735		$760	20	$380	$5,000	125	$167	$3.50	8	$117	$286	17	$71
FV	VW	H4	1200	60	70	1,025	7.88	01:58.8	$26,000	$1,036		$766	10	$766	$1,700	42	$170	$3.50	6	$88	$50	17	$13
FST	VW	H4	1600	85	100	1,125	6.08	02:00.3	$26,000	$510		$490	20	$245	$1,700	42	$170	$3.50	6	$88	$60	33	$7
E46	BMW	I6	3000	253	246	2,850	5.71	02:00.4	$35,000	$956		$944	20	$472	$5,000	125	$167	$3.50	10	$146	$513	13	$171
SP911	Porsche	H6	3200	245	225	2,350	5.00	02:01.6	$80,000	$936		$905	20	$453	$6,000	125	$200	$3.50	10	$146	$413	13	$138
SPB	Porsche	H6	2500	225	202	2,650	6.20	02:03.9	$30,000	$1,069		$944	20	$472	$5,000	125	$167	$3.50	10	$146	$553	13	$184	$100	Gearbox
LTR	Yamaha	XJR	1250	122	86	1,500	7.21	02:04.0	$20,000	$615		$500	40	$125	$3,500	42	$350	$3.50	8	$117	$275	50	$23
SM	Mazda	I4	1800	126	122	2,400	9.68	02:06.3	$20,000	$1,123		$836	20	$418	$5,000	42	$500	$3.50	8	$117	$264	13	$88

If you find this table difficult to read, here's a link to the spreadsheet in Google docs.

I didn't include all SCCA classes, just the purpose-built (formula and sports racers) and some of the other most popular ones. Non-SCCA classes are: NASA NP01, BMW Spec E46, Porsche Spec 911, Porsche Spec Boxster, Legends Thunder Roadster.

If you have corrections for a class, please reply with values for the following fields:

Displacement (cc)
Power at crank (horsepower)
Torque at crank (ft-lbs)
Weight with driver (lbs)
Purchase new ($) and year last available new
Tire, set ($)
Tire cycles (# heat cycles while remaining competitive)
Engine rebuild ($)
Engine hours (while remaining competitive)
Fuel ($ per gallon)
Fuel use (gallons per hour)
Brake pads ($)
Brake pad hours
Other costs ($, describe)

I will update the spreadsheet in Google docs as I get new numbers. I won't respond to each person (I think that would get old fast), but you can check the spreadsheet to see if your numbers made it in.


Thanks for your help,


Greg Holmberg

[phantomjock]

Thanks for the nice summary. I have a question:

Could you please share how you calculated the "Ratio" in Column 8?

It doesn't appear to be HP/pound, nor watts/kg, or another variant; #/Hp.

Also, as the GEN2 SRFs may be around for a bit (racing as a Regional Only Class), that might be a useful addition.

Cheers - Jim

[S Lathrop]

Your costs for FF, FB, and FC new cars is a bit optimistic.

In operating costs, you need to add in the cost of say one minor shunt per year. For a FC that might be 1/2 a front wing and the upper and lower control links. For full bodied cars, you might not damage as much suspension but you will beat a corner of the car up a bit.

The FC Zetec engine rebuild is on the high side. That cost might be for 2 or 3 years. The Honda FF rebuild costs are probably high as well.

All in all a good effort.

[lowside67]

I believe the cost of a new FF is around $70k, while the FC and FB are more like $80k. (All excluding dash).

Your power numbers also seem a bit off if intended to be at the crank. FB 11+ ZX10R more like 190hp. FC Zetec more like 170hp.

Great chart, I have been working on something similar and it's very helpful data.

cheers
Mark

[Rick Kirchner]

For Pinto stuff - tire cycles shown are twice as high as realistic. Fuel cost about twice as much if using AVGAS (12-16 gal/weekend), engine hours are more like 30 on the high side as opposed to 42.

[Jnovak]

With the current required restrictors the F600 Suzuki engine makes 105 HP.

[Jnovak]

Great post! Well done.

[ghickman]

Well I suppose I can speak with some authority on this since that track record at Thunderhill is held by me....driving a Phoenix chassis which I built. I might also add that lap record was done on 3 session old tires.

What I find is a plus with the FB is we don't mess with the gearbox. We seldom do even a sprocket change at the track. We lube the chain after every session.

I do an engine rebuild after every season which is a cost of about $3,500. I had 1 engine failure in 5 seasons of racing this same car.

We can sell you a brand new Phoenix with a Suzuki engine for $60k. We also have used cars for sale with spares.

The Phoenix FB will easily get 8 heat cycles out of a set of tires. At heat cycle 5 I see about a 1 second drop in lap times. These cars are so light and make so much D/F tires last longer than any Formula car I've ever driven.

For the money you simply can not go quicker than an FB and look cool doing it.

[Bob L.]

Sure seems the per weekend cost on FV is off. Something like 5th or 6th overall on list, more than FC, FB, ....? only 20% less than a P1? and 2x cost of Fst? See tire cost up due to frequency, with cheap rebuilds....but really?.... hard to imagine..

Something similar going on with FF Fit and CFF Ford..... Rebuilt freq. and higher cost? CFF harder/longer life tires? Yet, with half price on front costs? Nothing shown on current FF with Kent..

Think 10 weekends a year is high, today...

Also, would be nice if you lock the left and top scales when scanning across spreadsheet...found tough to keep up with what was what on my "narrow/old school" screen.

Bob L.

[holmberg]

Thanks for the nice summary. I have a question:

Could you please share how you calculated the "Ratio" in Column 8?

It doesn't appear to be HP/pound, nor watts/kg, or another variant; #/Hp.

Yes, sorry, I should have specified. It's weight/(hp+torque). The SCCA P1/P2 committee uses weight/((hp+torque)/2) to attempt to equalize cars in those classes (since torque differs so much between automotive and motorcycle engines, one should take both into account), and I just removed the constant '2'.

[ghickman]

Of 5 seasons of racing my 2013 Phoenix FB I've replaced brake pads 3 times. Yes I said 3 times. I run super thin rotors also, .28" thick. I'm running at the pointy end all the time so it's not like I'm some duffer or dude with more money then talent.

These FB cars are so light and have so much D/F they are easy on brakes.

Like any race car hitting things or constantly going of course is hard on them.

I might also mention I get 10 miles to the gallon. In a typical Majors weekend I'll go through 15 gallons of fuel.

[phantomjock]

THANKS!

[grapefarmeral]

Formula Vee seems to be about right, except brakes. Currently competitive shoes are about $500 a set...

[Bob Wright]

Here are some basic costs gleaned from my receipts, and some specs that I've been told...always good to get a second opinion...

For FA:
A Swift 016 can be bought new today from Atlantic Creations- cost all up will approach $200K. Used they are ~$100K. Motor is a Mazda 2300 @ 300+ HP and lasts up to 2,500 miles if you're nice to it. Rebuilds are anywhere from $8K up to $15K depending. Fuel usage is 6mi/gal? A set of tires is about $1,500. Weight is 1420 lbs. In general, maintenance is quite high on these cars, from gear boxes, to motors, brakes, wheel bearings, rod ends, and more.

FC:
Zetec motor is restricted to 152 HP or less (QS dyno) for FRP, a touch lower for the SCCA club map. Fuel usage is about 8-9 mi/gal. PFC brake pads for LD20 are about $120/axle, Hawk a bit cheaper- I get no more than four weekends, usually three from a set of pads. A set of tires (Hoosier Bias) is ~$800? They don't last 20 heat cycles in my universe; more like 6 if you push them. The radial is a little more consistent and can go a couple more cycles. My normal routine is the set of tires from the previous race (2 qualifying, 2 races- all 30 min sessions) becomes the practice set for the next weekend (anywhere from two to four 30 min sessions). After that they are pretty much toast depending on the track. Maintenance: motor rebuild can be $4K-$6K but should be once every 2 years or more if you don't overheat the zetec. Crate motors are for the most part unobtainable. LD200 gearbox with a 13/36 is quite durable, the 10/31 not so much (I have a clean 13/36 which has been in the car for more than 3 years)

FC pricing- New prices are maybe a little irrelevant. You can buy a decent late model VD for $30,000. A new Citation or Spectrum will most likely be over $100K complete. The Radon priced out new around $106K (there are 3 frames in boxes if you're so inclined ).

Hope this helps.....

[holmberg]

Sure seems the per weekend cost on FV is off. Something like 5th or 6th overall on list, more than FC, FB, ....? only 20% less than a P1? and 2x cost of Fst? See tire cost up due to frequency, with cheap rebuilds....but really?.... hard to imagine..

Something similar going on with FF Fit and CFF Ford..... Rebuilt freq. and higher cost? CFF harder/longer life tires? Yet, with half price on front costs? Nothing shown on current FF with Kent..

Think 10 weekends a year is high, today...

Also, would be nice if you lock the left and top scales when scanning across spreadsheet...found tough to keep up with what was what on my "narrow/old school" screen.

Bob L.

Thanks for the feedback, Bob.

I've never owned an FV, so my numbers may be way off. I did some searching/reading on apexspeed to get some of these numbers. Somewhere I read that the FV tires only get 10 heat cycles, which in my scenario, is just one weekend. At $766 a set for the Hoosiers (43336 and 43352, compound R55A), that's most of the $1,036 cost per weekend for FV.

What's your experience been with the FV tires, Bob? How many heat cycles do you get with the Hoosiers while remaining competitive? Let me know, and I'll update the spreadsheet.

On the FF and CFF: yes, the CFF tires cost less and last longer. Kent engines are more expensive to rebuild and need it more often (125 vs 50 hours). The Kent uses pricey fuel (with lead), the Fit uses pump gas. But again, these are not from personal experience, so please correct me if you have personal experience.

Here's a link to the spreedsheet in Google docs to make it easier to read.

[holmberg]

Your costs for FF, FB, and FC new cars is a bit optimistic.

In operating costs, you need to add in the cost of say one minor shunt per year. For a FC that might be 1/2 a front wing and the upper and lower control links. For full bodied cars, you might not damage as much suspension but you will beat a corner of the car up a bit.

The FC Zetec engine rebuild is on the high side. That cost might be for 2 or 3 years. The Honda FF rebuild costs are probably high as well.

All in all a good effort.

Thanks, Steve.

I just don't have any idea how to estimate the cost of a shunt for each class. Also, to some degree, this depends on the driver.

Given your constructor's background, perhaps you could suggest some costs for shunts in the classes you know?

If you know how much it costs to rebuild a Zetec or Fit engine, please let me know. Also hours between rebuilds.

[holmberg]

I believe the cost of a new FF is around $70k, while the FC and FB are more like $80k. (All excluding dash).

Your power numbers also seem a bit off if intended to be at the crank. FB 11+ ZX10R more like 190hp. FC Zetec more like 170hp.

Great chart, I have been working on something similar and it's very helpful data.

Thanks, Mark.

Do you have a torque number on the ZX10R? Or rebuild costs and competitive hours?

Above, Bob Wright says that the Zetec in FC is restricted to 152 HP. Which one of you is right?

[S Lathrop]

Thanks, Steve.

I just don't have any idea how to estimate the cost of a shunt for each class. Also, to some degree, this depends on the driver.

Given your constructor's background, perhaps you could suggest some costs for shunts in the classes you know?

If you know how much it costs to rebuild a Zetec or Fit engine, please let me know. Also hours between rebuilds.

Engine rebuilds, you need to talk to QS and Steve Knapp.

Control arms: about $500 for a front or rear lower and $350 for a front or rear upper. I often repair control arms if the outer end is not damages. That is about $150 per leg. Push rods are $100 to $150 to replace. Front wings should be just under $500 a side to replace but often you can re-skin an aluminum wing for half that. A front corner might run $1,000 with a few rod ends thrown in. Get into the rack, the nose box or any frame damage and all bets are off. $2000 would be a hopeful target. I would consider what can be fixed at the track and base my costs on that. The rear end will increase in cost because you might need a new CV joint $75 or Tri-pod $250.

[holmberg]

For Pinto stuff - tire cycles shown are twice as high as realistic. Fuel cost about twice as much if using AVGAS (12-16 gal/weekend), engine hours are more like 30 on the high side as opposed to 42.

Thanks, Rick.

By "Pinto stuff" do you mean FC or S2?

I didn't include a Pinto FC, just Zetec FC. But they use the same tires and, I would guess, get the same number of heat cycles (FC cars weigh about the same?). S2 weighs 135 lbs more.

So you're talking about the Hoosier 43163 and 43287 ($950 per set)? Which compound--R25B, R35B, or R45B? How many heat cycles go you get? 10?

How much does avgas cost?

I changed the Pinto hours to 30. Is $4,000 about what it costs to rebuild a Pinto?

[NorthAmF1000]

In a discussion on dsrforum, someone said that:

In my opinion, there are obvious differences in costs between the classes.




Here's what I came up with for many of the popular classes (sorted by lap time):

[SIZE=1]Car[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Engine make[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Engine model[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Displacement[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Power[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Torque[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Weight[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Ratio[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Lap time[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Purchase new[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Cost per weekend[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Tires Set[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Tire Cycles[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]tire cost Weekend[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Engine rebuild[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Engine hours[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]engine cost Weekend[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]fuel cost/gal[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]fuel gal/hour[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]fuel Weekend[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]brake pads Cost[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]brake pads Hours[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]brake pads Weekend[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Other Weekend[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]P1[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Suzuki[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]GSX R[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]197[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]86[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]3.53[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]01:36.6[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$90,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$1,374[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$1,006[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]20[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$503[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$5,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]42[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$500[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$10.00[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]8[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$333[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$188[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]21[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$38[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]FA[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]#DIV/0![/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]01:38.5[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]#DIV/0![/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]#DIV/0![/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]#DIV/0![/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$0[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]#DIV/0![/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]FB[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Suzuki[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]GSX R[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]180[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]86[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]3.76[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]01:40.0[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$60,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$879[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$950[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]20[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$475[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$2,500[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]42[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$250[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$3.50[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]8[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$117[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$188[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]21[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$38[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]P2[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Suzuki[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]GSX R[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]180[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]86[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]3.76[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]01:42.2[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$80,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$907[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$1,006[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]20[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$503[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$2,500[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]42[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$250[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$3.50[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]8[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$117[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$188[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]21[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$38[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]FC[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Ford[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Zetec[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]2000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]160[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]150[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1,200[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]3.87[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]01:45.0[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$70,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$904[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$950[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]20[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$475[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$4,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]125[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$133[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$7.00[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]8[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$233[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$188[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]13[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$63[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]FE[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Mazda[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]MZR[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]2300[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]171[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]168[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1,270[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]3.75[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]01:45.6[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$60,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$869[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$720[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]20[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$360[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$6,350[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]125[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$212[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$7.00[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]8[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$233[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$322[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]21[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$64[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]FM[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Mazda[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Rotary[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1300[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]180[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]180[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1,350[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]3.75[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]01:49.2[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$972[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$970[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]20[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$485[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$6,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]125[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$200[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$7.00[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]8[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$233[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$160[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]13[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$53[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]S2[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Ford[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Pinto[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]2000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]145[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]135[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1,335[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]4.77[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]01:49.9[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$60,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$1,175[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$950[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]20[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$475[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$4,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]42[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$400[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$7.00[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]8[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$233[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$200[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]13[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$67[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]F600[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Suzuki[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]GSX R[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]600[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]116[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]48[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]875[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]5.34[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]01:53.1[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$25,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$709[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$730[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]20[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$365[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$2,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]42[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$200[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$3.50[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]8[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$117[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$110[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]17[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$28[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]NP01[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Mazda[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]MZR[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]2000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]185[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]145[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1,725[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]5.23[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]01:53.7[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$86,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$566[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$907[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]40[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$227[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$5,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]125[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$167[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$3.50[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]8[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$117[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$278[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]21[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$56[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]FF[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Honda[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Fit[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1500[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]115[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]100[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1,110[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]5.16[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]01:53.8[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$60,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$645[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$764[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]20[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$382[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$2,500[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]125[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$83[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$3.50[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]8[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$117[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$188[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]13[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$63[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]CFF[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Ford[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Kent[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1600[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]115[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]100[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1,110[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]5.16[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]01:54.8[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$30,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$876[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$490[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]30[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$163[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$5,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]50[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$417[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$7.00[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]8[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$233[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$188[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]13[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$63[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]SRF3[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Ford[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Sigma[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1600[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]140[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]131[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1,670[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]6.16[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]01:58.8[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$45,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$735[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$760[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]20[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$380[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$5,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]125[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$167[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$3.50[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]8[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$117[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$286[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]17[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$71[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]FV[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]VW[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]H4[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1200[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]60[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]70[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1,025[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]7.88[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]01:58.8[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$26,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$1,036[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$766[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]10[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$766[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$1,700[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]42[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$170[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$3.50[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]6[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$88[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$50[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]17[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$13[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]FST[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]VW[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]H4[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1600[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]85[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]100[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1,125[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]6.08[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]02:00.3[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$26,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$510[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$490[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]20[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$245[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$1,700[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]42[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$170[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$3.50[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]6[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$88[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$60[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]33[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$7[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]E46[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]BMW[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]I6[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]3000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]253[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]246[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]2,850[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]5.71[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]02:00.4[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$35,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$956[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$944[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]20[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$472[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$5,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]125[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$167[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$3.50[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]10[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$146[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$513[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]13[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$171[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]SP911[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Porsche[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]H6[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]3200[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]245[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]225[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]2,350[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]5.00[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]02:01.6[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$80,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$936[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$905[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]20[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$453[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$6,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]125[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$200[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$3.50[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]10[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$146[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$413[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]13[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$138[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]SPB[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Porsche[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]H6[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]2500[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]225[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]202[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]2,650[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]6.20[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]02:03.9[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$30,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$1,069[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$944[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]20[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$472[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$5,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]125[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$167[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$3.50[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]10[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$146[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$553[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]13[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$184[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$100[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Gearbox[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]LTR[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Yamaha[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]XJR[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1250[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]122[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]86[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1,500[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]7.21[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]02:04.0[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$20,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$615[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$500[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]40[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$125[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$3,500[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]42[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$350[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$3.50[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]8[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$117[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$275[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]50[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$23[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]SM[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Mazda[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]I4[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]1800[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]126[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]122[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]2,400[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]9.68[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]02:06.3[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$20,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$1,123[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$836[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]20[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$418[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$5,000[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]42[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$500[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$3.50[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]8[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$117[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$264[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]13[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]$88[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1] [/SIZE]

Tires for FB (F1000) are $950 from one supplier. However, from American Racer Tire they are closer to $750. When buying one or two sets per weekend, this can add up quickly.

[holmberg]

I do an engine rebuild after every season which is a cost of about $3,500. I had 1 engine failure in 5 seasons of racing this same car.

We can sell you a brand new Phoenix with a Suzuki engine for $60k. We also have used cars for sale with spares.

The Phoenix FB will easily get 8 heat cycles out of a set of tires. At heat cycle 5 I see about a 1 second drop in lap times. These cars are so light and make so much D/F tires last longer than any Formula car I've ever driven.

For the money you simply can not go quicker than an FB and look cool doing it.

Thanks, Gary. I updated the spreadsheet.

I have 190 HP and 86 ft-lbs for FB--does that sound right?

Fuel--pump gas at $3.50/gal? 8 gal/hour?

Brake pads--$188? Last 10 weekends?

[holmberg]

Tires for FB (F1000) are $950 from one supplier. However, from American Racer Tire they are closer to $750. When buying one or two sets per weekend, this can add up quickly.

Thanks, Dustin.

Yes, the $950 is for the Hoosier 43163 (20.5x7) and 43287 (22x8) bias-ply.

How many heat cycles do you get from the AR tires?

[holmberg]

Formula Vee seems to be about right, except brakes. Currently competitive shoes are about $500 a set...

Thanks, Al.

I did see some FV folks (volks?) say that, and others said they were happy with some cheap $50 no-name pad. So I wasn't sure. I'll change it to $500.

[holmberg]

For FA:
A Swift 016 can be bought new today from Atlantic Creations- cost all up will approach $200K. Used they are ~$100K. Motor is a Mazda 2300 @ 300+ HP and lasts up to 2,500 miles if you're nice to it. Rebuilds are anywhere from $8K up to $15K depending. Fuel usage is 6mi/gal? A set of tires is about $1,500. Weight is 1420 lbs. In general, maintenance is quite high on these cars, from gear boxes, to motors, brakes, wheel bearings, rod ends, and more.

Thanks, Bob.

300 HP. How much torque?

How many heat cycles on those tires?

2500 miles. How many hours would that be?

What does fuel cost? How many gallons per hour?

Brake pads? How many hours?

[ghickman]

Thanks, Gary. I updated the spreadsheet.

I have 190 HP and 86 ft-lbs for FB--does that sound right?

Fuel--pump gas at $3.50/gal? 8 gal/hour?

Brake pads--$188? Last 10 weekends?

Real HP numbers and torque are 180 @77 ft/lbs

Race pump gas runs $9-10 per gallon. I always try to run the pump gas at the track. I'm constantly getting pulled off to side having fuel samples taken so track gas helps your case of you are out of spec.

Brake pads will easily go 10 weekends and then some.

ENGINE REBUILD COSTS:
Some of your rebuild costs look over optimistic. Is it possible to professional rebuild a FV for less then $4k?

[holmberg]

FC:
Zetec motor is restricted to 152 HP or less (QS dyno) for FRP, a touch lower for the SCCA club map. Fuel usage is about 8-9 mi/gal. PFC brake pads for LD20 are about $120/axle, Hawk a bit cheaper- I get no more than four weekends, usually three from a set of pads. A set of tires (Hoosier Bias) is ~$800? They don't last 20 heat cycles in my universe; more like 6 if you push them. The radial is a little more consistent and can go a couple more cycles. My normal routine is the set of tires from the previous race (2 qualifying, 2 races- all 30 min sessions) becomes the practice set for the next weekend (anywhere from two to four 30 min sessions). After that they are pretty much toast depending on the track. Maintenance: motor rebuild can be $4K-$6K but should be once every 2 years or more if you don't overheat the zetec. Crate motors are for the most part unobtainable. LD200 gearbox with a 13/36 is quite durable, the 10/31 not so much (I have a clean 13/36 which has been in the car for more than 3 years)

FC pricing- New prices are maybe a little irrelevant. You can buy a decent late model VD for $30,000. A new Citation or Spectrum will most likely be over $100K complete. The Radon priced out new around $106K (there are 3 frames in boxes if you're so inclined ).

How much torque for the Zetec?

Tires: I priced the Hoosier bias-ply 43163 (20.5x7) and 43287 (22x8) at $950.

Engine: so, let's say a $5,000 rebuild after 20 weekends (two years, 10 weekends per year).

Fuel: pump gas a $3.50/gal? 10 gal/hour?

Brake pads: $240 a set, last 30 sessions?

[FVRacer21]

Thanks for the feedback, Bob.

What's your experience been with the FV tires, Bob? How many heat cycles do you get with the Hoosiers while remaining competitive? Let me know, and I'll update the spreadsheet.

.

How many heat cycles do you get on a FV tire is like asking how many licks to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop - no one really knows. The Majors guys usually stop running competitively around 4 or 5 heat cycles, but the tires then get regulated to practice and qualifying or sold to Regional drivers (I have gone to 12). So the cost of a mounted set (which is over $800, here in the NE) might be spread over 1/2 season, not 1 race. The Runnoffs are different. Most regional drivers milk a new set of tires, saving just for races that count, for 6 races. The Majors guys will have to chime in, but I have heard Roger S gets buy will less than 2 new sets per season, 3 when you had to run 6 races to qualify for the Runoffs. So I would cut your tire cost per race to either 2 races per set for Majors or 4 races per set for regional. (and we may get a spec tire soon that hopefully will go 20 heat cycles!)

Looking at your other costs they seem pretty high but the question is are they consistent with the other classes. I cannot think of anyone who would BUY a new FV. FV's were only sold as kits only to to start with. Throwing in numbers that I think are reasonable I get down to $625 running costs per race weekend which fits in with my amount of $1000 (SCCA Regionals) including registration and other incidentals.

ChrisZ

[lowside67]

Thanks, Mark.

Above, Bob Wright says that the Zetec in FC is restricted to 152 HP. Which one of you is right?

Bob knows better, but I suspect that he gave you a rwhp figure where I gave you at the crank which is what your chart states. I may be wrong though.

-Mark

[holmberg]

How many heat cycles do you get on a FV tire is like asking how many licks to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop - no one really knows. The Majors guys usually stop running competitively around 4 or 5 heat cycles, but the tires then get regulated to practice and qualifying or sold to Regional drivers (I have gone to 12). So the cost of a mounted set (which is over $800, here in the NE) might be spread over 1/2 season, not 1 race. The Runnoffs are different. Most regional drivers milk a new set of tires, saving just for races that count, for 6 races. The Majors guys will have to chime in, but I have heard Roger S gets buy will less than 2 new sets per season, 3 when you had to run 6 races to qualify for the Runoffs. So I would cut your tire cost per race to either 2 races per set for Majors or 4 races per set for regional. (and we may get a spec tire soon that hopefully will go 20 heat cycles!)

Looking at your other costs they seem pretty high but the question is are they consistent with the other classes. I cannot think of anyone who would BUY a new FV. FV's were only sold as kits only to to start with. Throwing in numbers that I think are reasonable I get down to $625 running costs per race weekend which fits in with my amount of $1000 (SCCA Regionals) including registration and other incidentals.

Thanks, Chris.

How many heat cycles are there in a weekend of racing, in your scenario?

I was thinking 10 sessions in a weekend, including Friday practice. Friday: 4 HC (practice); Saturday: 3 HC (practice, qualify, race); Sunday: 3 HC (practice, race, race) = 10 HC. Maybe your region does it differently.

You said you have gone to 12 HC's. Or four regional weekends. Are you thinking 12/4 = 3 HC's per weekend?

How about I put FV down for 10 HC's?

In my scenario, that's only one weekend, but if you don't come for Friday practice, that's 6 HC's in a weekend, and you may be able to stretch a set of tires to two weekends (12 HC's).

I'm not sure how to get to four weekends on 12 HC's.

[Bob L.]

Thanks for the feedback, Bob.

I never owned an FV, so my numbers may be way off. I did some searching/reading on apexspeed to get some of these numbers. Somewhere I read that the FV tires only get 10 heat cycles, which in my scenario, is just one weekend. At $766 a set for the Hoosiers (43336 and 43352, compound R55A), that's most of the $1,036 cost per weekend for FV.

What's your experience been with the FV tires, Bob? How many heat cycles do you get with the Hoosiers while remaining competitive? Let me know, and I'll update the spreadsheet.

On the FF and CFF: yes, the CFF tires cost less and last longer. Kent engines are more expensive to rebuild and need it more often (125 vs 50 hours). The Kent uses pricey fuel (with lead), the Fit uses pump gas. But again, these are not from personal experience, so please correct me if you have personal experience.

Here's a link to the spreedsheet in Google docs to make it easier to read.

Well, I started writing and then saw 3 replies before I posted...so, edit, edit, edit... think recent Vee guy has it right on tires...

Like you, I've never owned/raced a Vee (well, do have an 80 March SV), high cost/weekend struck me as odd. Noticed the cost was tire and time driven. Guess we must defer to others, for real data. Hopefully you'll get something.

Think assumed parameters at start are giving too skewed of a look. Most racers don't run 10 weekends, with 10 sessions in those lower classes. Someone doing that probably needs a hired crew, and has higher operating expenses. (More track time, more offs, worned out bits?)

10 weekends a year is high. Also, 10 sessions on track in a "race" weekend is too great. Most of the majors I've run in last few years, have had a max. of 6 session, including 2 races. Perhaps, 8-9 sessions, if you bought optional test day (more cost for that, too). Believe, as a "rule" most club racers, wouldn't run "race/new rubber" for the test/practice, and even first qualifying on the weekend. No need with small entries now seen. Besides, one just wear stuff out running, and running, and running....most serious folks, make the fast flyer, then save it for the "race"... less stress or risk. One of the reasons few fast folks, ran regionals when held with nationals....nothing new....

Greatest costs: travel, safety upgrades, tires, fuel, entry fees......few buy new cars, more likely used...

Thanks for source to view data....worksheet.....ashame viewing tools not available with this forum..... more clicking around...

You did good, pulling this together and sharing....interested to see how it goes...

Bob L.

[Bob Wright]

FC HP numbers are dyno. Also, these cars use 93 pump gas. As far as fuel consumption- we use About 5 gal for a 30 min session, which is about all these cars are good for. With a 40'min session ( we sometimes schedule them), if you don't stop you will likely run out of fuel.

At a Sebring majors race a couple of years ago, someone thought the "feature race" should be longer- at least 3 FC's ran out of gas on the track during the race- oops.

To translate from number of miles to number of hours for engine life, a quick and dirty method would be to assume the average lap speed is 100 mph ( if you look at a wide assortment of tracks, that number holds true more than you might think for FF and FC. FA is a little higher), therefore 2500 miles translates to about 25 hrs. Alternately, for instance FRP gives nominally 3 hrs per weekend of track time, but I suspect very few cars actually clock the 3 hrs on the motor. 2.5 is probably more likely for most. Majors races are generally 2+ hrs of track time and regionals substantially less.

[NorthAmF1000]

Thanks, Dustin.

Yes, the $950 is for the Hoosier 43163 (20.5x7) and 43287 (22x8) bias-ply.

How many heat cycles do you get from the AR tires?

Comparable life expectancy.

As with all tires, after the first two cycles, a hundredth or tenth is lost. I am not sure to what you are referring when you say tires are lasting 20 heat cycles. The AR will run beyond 20 cycles and be within a couple seconds, but I'm not familiar with any non-spec hard-as-a-rock tire which will not drop off somewhat after the initial run. As with all racing, to be fast you need new rubber.

[Daryl DeArman]

Thanks for the nice summary. I have a question:

Could you please share how you calculated the "Ratio" in Column 8?

I know you already had the question answered. However, for future such questions with Excel; if you click on a cell in column 8, such as L4 you will see the formula in the upper left. Just to the right of the "fx="

[FVRacer21]

Thanks, Chris.

How many heat cycles are there in a weekend of racing, in your scenario?

I was thinking 10 sessions in a weekend, including Friday practice. Friday: 4 HC (practice); Saturday: 3 HC (practice, qualify, race); Sunday: 3 HC (practice, race, race) = 10 HC. Maybe your region does it differently.

You said you have gone to 12 HC's. Or four regional weekends. Are you thinking 12/4 = 3 HC's per weekend?

How about I put FV down for 10 HC's?

In my scenario, that's only one weekend, but if you don't come for Friday practice, that's 6 HC's in a weekend, and you may be able to stretch a set of tires to two weekends (12 HC's).

I'm not sure how to get to four weekends on 12 HC's.

Most regionals are 4 sessions - majors can be 5 or max 6.

in the NE very few test days as Lime Rock and Thompson are Friday/Saturday due to Blue Laws. If you do test - it is usually on old tires since new are expensive. Many have 3 sets of new, older and oldest - I really want to put a colored stripe on them
- hard, super hard and ultra hard

i think 10 hc is fair when considering the ultimate use of a FV tire.

Chris Z

ps for another thread - not trying to be a socialist - but FV costs have stayed very stable over the last ten years - costs like entry fees, travel expenses etc. impact our budget more than someone running a FC car for example. We have to keep entry level classes affordable. At the last regional in the NE, the FV class by itself was 20% of all entries for the weekend. This spreadsheet helps understand why some classes have disappeared from regional racing.

[DanW]

Greg,

I think your numbers for a Club Ford weekend are pretty accurate. The aquisition cost of a CF (non are new) is between 10K and 18K for a ready to race car.

[holmberg]

I think your numbers for a Club Ford weekend are pretty accurate. The aquisition cost of a CF (non are new) is between 10K and 18K for a ready to race car.

Hi Dan--

I got $30,000 by starting with $6,000 in 1974 and using an inflation calculator.

I wasn't sure about getting 30 heat cycles from a set of American Racer 133 tires.

Engine rebuild: $5,000 after 50 hours (two years)?

$7/gal fuel, 4 gal. per session?

Brake pads $188, lasts three weekends?

[bhayes]

Having recently got back in to FF after being away for a few years, I can say that the running costs of a modern FF are really very low. The Honda engines are nearly bulletproof, and the Hoosier spec tires are competitive for many many heat cycles.

Compared to 10 years ago where frequent Kent engine rebuilds, and open tire rules drive up running costs, I think the current state of FF is really great. And because of this, we have been seeing decent sized fields at all of the west coast races. And there is a great field of 40+ cars signed up for this year's runoffs. I know that a lot of the other classes also have a lot to offer, but I think the bang for the buck with a modern Honda powered FF is hard to beat.

[holmberg]

Having recently got back in to FF after being away for a few years, I can say that the running costs of a modern FF are really very low. The Honda engines are nearly bulletproof, and the Hoosier spec tires are competitive for many many heat cycles.

Brad--

Yes, FF currently has the lowest operating cost on the spreadsheet!

Can you confirm:

Tires: 20 competitive heat cycles for the Hoosier spec radial, R60A hard compound?

Engine rebuild: $2,500 after 80 hours (three years)? Just replace the Fit core with an HPD crate engine?

Fuel: $3.50/gal, 4 gal in a 30-minute session?

Brake pads: $188, lasts three weekends?

[problemchild]

Brad--

Yes, FF currently has the lowest operating cost on the spreadsheet!

Can you confirm:

Tires: 20 competitive heat cycles for the Hoosier spec radial, R60A hard compound?

Engine rebuild: $2,500 after 80 hours (three years)? Just replace the Fit core with an HPD crate engine?

Fuel: $3.50/gal, 4 gal in a 30-minute session?

Brake pads: $188, lasts three weekends?

All those numbers are realistic for FF. We have a FIT engine that is into it's 5th year and approaching 200 hours, and only getting better.

While some tracks do create some tire wear, most don't, and the tires can be reused for extended periods if not concerned about the last few tenths of pace.

Some classes will have a huge disparity in costs between top-ten Runoff contenders and average regional competition. Others not so much. This chart cannot capture that variable. Also, being a buyer's market currently, buying the right car, perhaps paying only several thousand more, may result in savings of operating costs, many times over. As always, prospective racers should select options, and visit events to meet people in those classes and see the different levels of commitment and cost. Some classes are great choices in some areas, and very poor in others.

[problemchild]

While some tracks do create some tire wear, most don't, and the tires can be reused for extended periods if not concerned about the last few tenths of pace.

Here is a tire from my FF. Each stamp indicates it was my declared tire for an FRP event. This tire was used to finish 2nd at a Majors event. That was atleast the 6th event for this tire.