FB operational costs

[holmberg]

Over on the General Formula Car Discussion topic, I've been conducting a survey of operational costs for each class. Here I'm only interested in costs that differ significantly between the classes, and not, for example, entrance fees, hotel, food, etc.

Drivers from some classes have responded with data for their class, and the result is a spreadsheet in Google docs.

Here's what I have for this class. If you have changes, please reply below, and I will update the spreadsheet.

Class name: FB

Engine make: Suzuki

Engine model: GSX R

Displacement: 1000

Power at crank, HP: 180

Torque at crank, ft-lbs: 80
Weight with driver, lbs: 1,000

Purchase new, $: 70,000

Tires set, $: 750

Tire competitive heat cycles: 8

Engine rebuild, $: 3,500

Engine competitive hours: 27

Fuel $/gallon: 10

Fuel gallons/hour: 10

Brake pads set, $: 188

Brake pads hours: 27

Other operational costs, $:

Thanks,

Greg Holmberg

[NorthAmF1000]

Engines - Suzuki,, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Aprilla, Honda, BMW
Car Purchase new $55 - $70 (9 different manufacturers)

[holmberg]

Anyone else care to share what they spend on tires, engines, gearbox, fuel, brake pads, etc?

If you respond, please provide values for the data fields I've listed above.

Here I'm only looking at the predictable costs that vary between the classes.

Some costs are more or less the same between classes, such as towing, hotel, food, entry fee, and so on. I am ignoring those costs.

Some costs are personal choice, and not inherent in the class, such as how much you choose to spend on your tow vehicle or RV, or paying people to support you. I am ignoring those too.

Some costs, while having some correlation to the class, are unpredictable and so difficult to quantify, such as crash repairs or engine failures. I am ignoring those too.

Regarding the engine, here's the scenario: You have a fresh engine producing power that is competitive in a Majors race or the Run-offs. It produces this power for some amount of time, and then starts to fall off, and at some point is no longer competitive. You send the engine back to the builder, who does whatever is necessary for that particular engine (some classes more, some less) to make it competitive again. How much does the builder charge for this? And how many hours did the engine operate competitively before becoming non-competitive?

Also would like to know what is competitive horsepower and torque?

Thanks,


Greg

[ghickman]

Regarding the engine, here's the scenario: You have a fresh engine producing power that is competitive in a Majors race or the Run-offs. It produces this power for some amount of time, and then starts to fall off, and at some point is no longer competitive. You send the engine back to the builder, who does whatever is necessary for that particular engine (some classes more, some less) to make it competitive again. How much does the builder charge for this? And how many hours did the engine operate competitively before becoming non-competitive?

Also would like to know what is competitive horsepower and torque?

Thanks,


Greg

Greg
Without getting into the weeds on this.

I don't find that the Motorcycle engines gradually begin loosing power. What I find most important is to not run them to that point. Oil pressure is key for the bike engines.

Much of this is dependent on where you set your shift point. Stretch the revs out an extra 300-500 rpm and well it simply won't last as long.

Trick is to not let them begin falling off, it won't be long before it lets go in a big way. This is why I use strictly time on the engine even if it's still making good power and O/P.

[holmberg]

Trick is to not let them begin falling off, it won't be long before it lets go in a big way. This is why I use strictly time on the engine even if it's still making good power and O/P.

OK, good. So how much time?

And then what does it cost to get it refreshed?

And what horsepower and torque does it make?

[ghickman]

OK, good. So how much time?

And then what does it cost to get it refreshed?

And what horsepower and torque does it make?

18 hours MAX or if O/P ever goes below 40 PSI at WOT. I ignor anything that isn't wide open throttle.

Typical major O/H with dyno tune is $3,500. I recommend always doing a thorough dyno test, if it blows up on the dyno it's the engine builders problem.

07/08 Suzuki
Max HP I've seen is 174
Max Torque I've seen is 79.5 ft/lbs

[jaltaman]

What Gary said.

18 Hours is about right on the engine, and the rebuild cost is also spot-on, but can be up to $4.5k if you replace all the valves and some gears. Note that the gearbox is also taken care of at the same time as it's a motorcycle engine.

Sprockets and chains are a wear item. Call it a new chain every 4-6 race weekends, and those are about $120. Sprockets last pretty long if you take care of the chain, maybe 2-3 of those per season at $85 each for the rears, and 1 front at $25.

Tires, it depends. Hoosiers are $992 (plus tax & shipping). The ARs are $750, I believe.

Brakes - very light wear, call it a set of pads every 1.5 seasons. $93 per axle.

Fuel is 100 octane race gas at the track. Out west we paid $9.50 - $10/gal, except at COTA where it was only $8.50/gal. Fuel economy is about 9-9.5 mpg. Depending upon number of sessions driven and duration, fuel was anywhere from $150 - $230 for a weekend.

[JerryH]

Having six cars currently running in majors since 2013.....having a car podium in every runoff since winning in 2013,. I have a pretty good database relative to F1000.

Engines are very reliable and long lasting (by race engine standards)... IF you keep enough oil and water in them...cooling systems are adequate.....and revs are kept to their design limits. Ignore problems in these areas and the life span will be short.

After doing engine overhauls at 20 hours many times I have found the lower end rarely needs anything at that point (ring seal even stays good).... but the cylinder head sometimes need attention.

Leak down test after every weekend and oil pressure at wot will tell you when the engine needs attention. Check temp and pressure data after each session. Always use new valve springs when freshing a cylinder head

The engine that Loshak won the runoffs with in 2013 had 4 very hard weekends on it...and several test days. it was not down on power.

A low milage (less than 10000) used engine off a bike is good if the leak down is good. Over 10000 and I would have the head redone with new valve springs......even if leak down is good. The bottom ends off a street bike are good as is. Run them 20 hrs keeping an eye on oil presdure and then consider a rebuild with first cylinder head refresh. Good used engines can stil be found for about $3500. rebuilds are about $3500 as well. Cylinder head rebuild about $1500.

Therefore an engine budget of $3500 per season (8 to 10 weekends) is a reasonable estimate.

Dyno every engine before installing in the car......used or rebuilt. Find problems there if one exist.

08 Suzuki Hp is 180 to 185 at engine......170 to 175 at the wheels. Some builders use chassis dyno....some engine dyno.

We usually get 2 weekends on a set of brake pads at $90 per axle. Wilwood power lite caliper/PFC disc.

Chain will go 6 weekends (we have gone longer) if aligned properly. If not it and the sprocket will wear quickly. $150 for chain. $80 for sprocket

Very competitive used cars are available for 30 to 40 thou. 55 will buy a new one.

Like most classes. To run up front at a majors, you need two sets of tires per weekend. Soft compound is faster but don't last as long .....and even hard compounds get slower each heat cycle.
American Racer tires are $750 per set. They are now competitive with Hoosier 35. Hoosiers are $980 per set.

There is no gearbox maintenance or overhaul cost. This can be substantial in other classes. I paid S4500 for an LD200 rebuild in an FC several years ago.

Sunoco 260 Gt is our fuel of choice. It is $10 per gallon. We use about 20 gallons per weekend. We order it and take it with us. It is worth a few hp over 93 octane pump gas.....but they run fine on 93. Track gas is betwee $ 7 and $9...but is inconsistant from track to track..

F1000 is a very exciting car to drive...and to watch race. You can't go as fast for anything near the same cost. Absolutely the most bang for the buck.
Drive one and you will be hooked!

Feel free to contact me for more details if you like.

Jerry Hodges
JDR Race Cars
636-399-7060

[holmberg]

Fantastic information, Jerry! Thank you.

Do you know peak torque at the engine?

Regarding brake pads, above John LaBrie (jaltaman) said he gets 1.5 years on his $93/axle pads (doesn't mention the brand) on his Phoenix F1K09. I'm figuring a full season is 8 weekends, so I translate his 1.5 years to 12 weekends.

You're getting 2 weekends on your $90/axle PFC pads.

How can one person get 12 weekends, and another get 2 weekends on their pads? There's a hidden variable in there somewhere.

But very helpful. Thanks so much.

Greg

[JerryH]

Not sure how many weekends John runs in a season.

I am speaking of double race majors
weekends with a Thursday test day. Quite lot of miles.

Some of my guys have gone 3 weekends. Beyond that they are less than half thickness and the performance and balance changes....so we change them. You could go longer.

A harder pad is available that would wear longer.....but it wouldn't stop as quick. We tested harder and softer.

Jerry

[holmberg]

Not sure how many weekends John runs in a season.

I am speaking of double race majors
weekends with a Thursday test day. Quite lot of miles.

Some of my guys have gone 3 weekends. Beyond that they are less than half thickness and the performance and balance changes....so we change them. You could go longer.

A harder pad is available that would wear longer.....but it wouldn't stop as quick. We tested harder and softer.

Jerry

How many hours would you say your guys are on track during a double race major, including test days?

I was using this scenario for a typical weekend and season: sessions are 25 minutes, 8 sessions in a weekend including a practice day, 8 weekends in a season. So this comes out to 3.33 hours per weekend, and 26.7 hours per year.

Also, any idea on torque at the engine?

[Daryl DeArman]

How many hours would you say your guys are on track during a double race major, including test days?

I was using this scenario for a typical weekend and season: sessions are 25 minutes, 8 sessions in a weekend including a practice day, 8 weekends in a season. So this comes out to 3.33 hours per weekend, and 26.7 hours per year.

Take a look here: https://www.scca.com/pages/majors-points

I don't think you'll find many folks doing more than 3 weekends a season in most classes (more than half do ONE). Looking at Majors results and schedules looks like the usual is no more than 45 minutes a day.

[JerryH]

We rarely get 3 hrs. Yes some weekends are 8 sessions including Thursday test day......but some are 20min.....and one is usually 15 min. Then sessions are often cut short by on track incidents.
The average is probably 2.5 hrs for the 4 day weekend.
For weekends where the test day is Friday, it is 2 hrs or less including test day sessions.

I don't recall torque numbers at the moment. After we got the exhaust and intake developed.....and found the flash we liked, I quit worrying about it.

Jerry

[JakeL]

Regarding brake pad life.

I believe that John's Phoenix had 4-piston Wilwood calipers front and rear, which have substantially larger pad area than the PFC ZR55 2-piston caliper. I have noticed substantially less pad life with the PFC calipers on my Stohr than I had with previous cars that used the 4-pot Wilwoods.

2 weekends seems quite low based on my experience, but it's certainly at least once per season if not twice with the smaller PFC pads.

-Jake

[jaltaman]

Sorry for the confusion on the pad wear. Jake's correct, Wilwood calipers and pads.

I should have qualified the wear information. These were Majors race weekends - for the last 2 seasons I only did 3 race weekends plus the runoffs. Looking at my bigger years (7+), we definitely used more than one set of pads. I also had fewer test days the last 2 years as well.

So that means I got about 5-6 race weekends per set of pads.

Jerry's a straight-up guy, I have a lot of respect for him. If he says they got 2 weekends out of a set of pads, then that's what they got.

And let's be honest - I'm not as good under braking as I should be, so there's that to consider.

[jaltaman]

Sorry Jake, my comment could be misunderstood

You're also a stand up guy, and your word is golden in my book.

[JakeL]

Thanks John. Bag of flaming dog poo to your door canceled.

-J

[jaltaman]

LOL.

[holmberg]

OK, it appears that all the discussions in all the communities have died out, so you can find the results in the spreadsheet.