Poll: FF SPEC TIRE

[Steve Bamford]

JRII makes several very good points. One of the things that I see from the response to date is that the majority are Regional competitors. Given that the Regions can adopt their own tire rules I am not certain this proposal will have much, if any, impact upon the Major's participation level.

• Are tires the only thing keeping people away from Major events?
• Are you lobbing your local SCCA Regions for spec tire rules?
• Have you lobbied for spec tires in the past?
• What is your local Region's response?
• Will suddenly Regional participants begin to travel to Major events in addition or in lieu of their Regional events?

The survey that went out was to people who were or are Major's competitors within the last two years which for some reason it seems many Major competitors did not receive. Thank you John for enabling me to complete mine.

There are many people on here who are Major competitors so not sure why you say the majority are regional only, I do see some as well but don't see it as a majority.

I am 99.9% sure this is not something that is only asked for by regional competitors. If I am wrong then I really missed the whole point of the many threads on here asking for a spec tire with multiple Major or National winners saying they agree to it.

[John LaRue]

If anyone did not receive a survey they can certainly email me and I will have one sent out. jlarueatjohnblaruedotcom

[Brian C in Az]

Steve,
it was a long time ago when I raced in CF. But my recollection was that for the first few seasons only used 1 or 2 sets per season, but after got to the front and was challenging for SARRC championship points became everything and new tires were definitely faster…...

My questions are these, by going to a less expensive tire how many cars will this get out of the garage? How many more races will current racers do?

why not have a spec tire for the "regional" races and open tires for the majors.

JRII

If you look at the thread calling for a Treaded Tire Kent only race, you will see about 20 of those cars sitting in the garage that have answered the call…

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66402


There is no reasong that the Regions can't create their own tire spec. That may be the quickest way to get this done.

At this point, over 50% of all votes cast have been for the Toyo tire; more than all other votes combined. The Toyo R888 works, is easy to adapt the car to and is easy for the driver to adapt.

As others have pointed out, the most vocal objectors have never even tried the Toyo tires. We race them in Az. When other cars show up on American Racers, the laps times are very close. I can not recall the last time that a FF on slicks took the checker out here. Of course, we are talking about club racing, no pros have ever run with us.

The Canadian racers have no complaints about racing on the Toyo R888's.

[John Robinson II]

If you look at the thread calling for a Treaded Tire Kent only race, you will see about 20 of those cars sitting in the garage that have answered the call…

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66402

Brian,
is registration for this race open? I have looked back through this and the other thread and can only find 2 cars that are not racing that have verbally committed, the originators.
I am not against the Toyos but am definitely for what ever it takes to get more cars at the track. Personally I don't think tires is the only reason people are not racing. excuses are like extremist leaders, get rid of one and the void is filled immediately.

john

[Steve Bamford]

John & John,

I appreciate you both looking at the possible negatives that can come out of this as they should be addressed however I, and many others, believe the positives out way the negatives greatly. You both bring up good points to consider.

To answer both of your questions, I don't think there is a way anyone can quantify that adding a spec tire will bring out the garage queens. There is no way to say there will be "x" number of additional racers or current racers will run more or even less races. Too many other variables as you have said.

Really the only thing that can be guaranteed is that tire expense will go down & that based on the poll results above an overwhelming number of racers are requesting this. That in itself should be more then enough to get a spec tire in place ASAP. If we try to decrease costs per weekend then we do have a better chance of increasing fields.

One thing I always paid attention to on the false grid was what tires my competitors were on. Were they stickers, scrubs, older tires...I always wondered if I had made the right choice & there were times I would run stickers just to eliminate my own questions if that was hurting my competitiveness. It becomes extremely costly to do this. In other series I have run that have tire rules I don't really have this worry as I know we are all on the same even playing field. Why wouldn't you want this for the SCCA as well? Not sure of anyone's argument against this.

[SEComposites]

Brian,
is registration for this race open? I have looked back through this and the other thread and can only find 2 cars that are not racing that have verbally committed, the originators.
I am not against the Toyos but am definitely for what ever it takes to get more cars at the track. Personally I don't think tires is the only reason people are not racing. excuses are like extremist leaders, get rid of one and the void is filled immediately.

john

Ok, for clarification purposes our race at the 2015 ARRC is for Kent powered cars running on Toyo tires. From the word go both Lee and I have said this is what we plan to do. If it's just us tooling around having fun then so be it. We offered up our idea to the community to see if there was anyone else who wanted to joint in for a bit of fun. We have had a very healthy response, but this remains a fun race to round out the year. We don't want to be involved in this discussion as a points scoring excuse for either side of this debate! Lee and I will be there on Toyo's. Anyone else who wants to join in without having to worry about Hondas or gum ball tires is welcome. This was and is meant to be a fun race!

[John Robinson II]

Ok, for clarification purposes our race at the 2015 ARRC is for Kent powered cars running on Toyo tires. From the word go both Lee and I have said this is what we plan to do. If it's just us tooling around having fun then so be it. We offered up our idea to the community to see if there was anyone else who wanted to joint in for a bit of fun. We have had a very healthy response, but this remains a fun race to round out the year. We don't want to be involved in this discussion as a points scoring excuse for either side of this debate! Lee and I will be there on Toyo's. Anyone else who wants to join in without having to worry about Hondas or gum ball tires is welcome. This was and is meant to be a fun race!

I am not trying to use the ARRC as an example. It is no different than when we ran FFX several years ago. it is my intention to be there as well.
I also agree with Steve that there is no way to quantify the number of participants a spec tire will entice or shun.
I am going to get a set of the toyos and find out for myself. biggest problem I see is that I am not really interested, at this time, to test the longevity. 15 to 20 heat cycles is about 3 race weekends with test days and the schedule probably wont allow that. And to put it bluntly, there are very few people involved with this thread who's testing I trust. I have communicated with some I do trust and the response was not negative.

John

[problemchild]

As has been pointed out here repeatedly, and likely ignored again, the two non-SCCA Toyo Series have experienced incredible growth in the past few years. They have successfully attracted the garage queens, and turned the part-timers into regulars. While there are certainly other contributing factors, the overwhelming common denominator is the tires. It is not the brand, although the attached advertising dollars help, but the characteristics of the tires. The brand could easily be Yoko, BFG, Goodyear, or Hoosier.

The few people who are opposed to racing in 25 car fields, at the cost of going 3 seconds a lap slower, while saving $1000s of dollars ...... will surely find another SCCA class to race in. FFs in Canada have been racing on radial street tires for 25 years now! There is no need to invent "FF on radial street tires" here. It has been done!

I personally don't care whether the new spec tire is street radials or suitable racing tires, but constantly find myself having to defend the Toyos. There has been so much misinformation presented here. Those of you that still fear the Toyos, please read through these two active threads and read the input from those that have raced on them. You will read overwhelming positive commentary.

[SEComposites]

I am not trying to use the ARRC as an example. It is no different than when we ran FFX several years ago. it is my intention to be there as well.
I also agree with Steve that there is no way to quantify the number of participants a spec tire will entice or shun.
I am going to get a set of the toyos and find out for myself. biggest problem I see is that I am not really interested, at this time, to test the longevity. 15 to 20 heat cycles is about 3 race weekends with test days and the schedule probably wont allow that. And to put it bluntly, there are very few people involved with this thread who's testing I trust. I have communicated with some I do trust and the response was not negative.

John

Hi John,
I hope you can make it down, you can always keep the Toyo's for the Kentledge Cup part deux in 2016!

[John Robinson II]

Hi John,
I hope you can make it down, you can always keep the Toyo's for the Kentledge Cup part deux in 2016!

my plan was to test on them to get ready for the famed "Kentledge Cup". from all indications, I will not need to buy another set for that race.

John
PS, I just checked and Appalachian Race tire carries these and there is a tire rack warehouse in Ga. that has them in stock...

[problemchild]

Its time to pull this together guys.
It certainly appears there is overwhelming support for a spec tire in FF.

Regarding this poll. Rand, through some bizarre logic, voted for an open tire because he did not like the options. I never voted because I did not like the options. There must be others that just want a spec tire and don't care whether its Toyo or Hoosier.

We need to make this two issues.
#1. The FF community wants and needs a spec tire.
#2. The debate on which spec tire to choose.

It is important that we put pressure on every SCCA person with any influence to make #1 happen. Beware of similar movements that were ignored by SCCA. In recent times, the FV adhoc committee conducted a poll that had 70% of the respondents favor a spec tire. Like our poll, the 70% was split almost equally between a radial street tire and a harder Hoosier racing tire. The SCCA people interpreted the poll as evidence that the FV community had insufficient support for a spec tire. This could absolutely happen here if we let it. We need to make sure the 50-50 split on choice does not overide the 40-1 ratio of those who want spec tires to those that don't.

We need to stress #1 as we write our letters and contact our local SCCA leaders.
Lets get this done!

[RobLav]

The problem here seems to be the poll itself. It ought to be two separate questions because the positive spec tire votes are diluted amongst the options.

Since I'm now working in VA, this series seems a good place to run. But now I need another car. Does anyone know this one?:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65991

It seems a good FF candidate - no?

[Parker]

Greg, I think your urgency is right on.

I also think that your suggestion of splitting this debate into 2 issues is an invitation for inaction on the decision makers part. Put another way, it's an excuse for continuing to do nothing.

I don't think that in a debate with 3 or more outcomes it will get any clearer than it is right now. One option has more than twice the support of any single other option.

Maybe after this poll has been given a full opportunity to receive input, another poll should be created which has only the top two options from this poll. This could consolidate votes and show a clear winner or not. Of course, people may be tired of voting by then and just give up because they feel they're not being heard.

[SEComposites]

Maybe its done in two stages -
Firstly decide either
1.All weather semi slick
2.Slick and wets.

Then figure out the best tire based on these results.
Regardless it would seem $600 ish for a set and 20 heat cycles is the target.

[problemchild]

Polls can be interpreted in different ways.

With no personal agenda, I interpret it as a 50-50 split for tire choice, after a landside choice for spec tires, and the wish there had been an option for "any of the spec tire choices".

If I had a Toyo agenda, it would be a clear mandate for Toyos, after a landside choice for spec tires.

If I had a Hoosier agenda, it would be a 50-50 split for tire choice, after a landside choice for spec tires.

If I had a Not Toyo agenda, it would be a 50-50 split for tire choice, after a landside choice for spec tires.

If I wanted no change. it would be "thank God these clowns are not organized and are splitting their vote, virtually assuring it will drag out for several years".

Perhaps, if I am a SCCA BOD member, I am thankful I'm let off the hook from making a great decision that might see a traditional class actually have some growth.

The common theme is the landslide choice for a spec tire.

I think that separating the issue allows #1 to get done ..... with the details to be determined. Hopefully, it will also wake up some folks to the big picture goal, and put their personal preferences secondary.

[Roux]

I voted for the Pro tire but will GALDLY change to Toyo if it makes a difference.

How about a straight up vote driven from SCCA. Toyo tire as spec national tire as of March 1, 2015 and the only choice is 'For' or 'Against'. We would get all of the Toyo votes and then some of the other >50 in favor of a spec tire but liking the Hoosier options in the initial pole will have to go Toyo or 'against'. I will go for Toyo for sure and I suspect a chunk of others will too. I think it is worth a try. And then the option flips the other way. If regional guys somewhere want to run a regional tire they just have to do the campaigning locally and they can have whatever they like locally.

Steve

[jgrooms]

I voted for Hoosier but I am changing my vote to Toyo. The rears are the same diameter as the Hoosier so I am confident they will bolt on to a DB-1 without difficulty.

John

[David Clubine]

The Canadian racers have no complaints about racing on the Toyo R888's.

Are you sure that there have been no complaints about racing on the Toyos in Canada?

[Parker]

Mr. Clubine, what are your impressions of the Toyo R888 tires?

What have you "heard" about them from teams racing them in Canada?

Thank you,

[problemchild]

Where there is racing, there are complaints. Brian's comment was just plain wrong. The only two people I ever heard complain about the tires were David and one of his crew. Keeping in mind that David is the Canadian Dunlop distributor, I think context is important.
I am sure there are others who would prefer the advantage that buying tires more often provides, or the way the car feels, but I personally never heard any other complaints.

[KevinFirlein]

After years against it , I came out in favor of a spec treaded tire on Apexspeed a couple of years ago now. I would never vote , that's for my driver to do I can offer so input here. I am sorry if this has been already hashed out but I am late to the game having just finished my last seasons commitments and I haven't read all the posts.

We are all competitors so while wanting what's best for the class we also want what's best for ourselves. I saw a post saying with the treaded tires you would only need to carry 6 wheels since they would also be the rain tires. So you would have your main set plus a spare front and a spare rear. I would still carry the same 4 sets of wheel for my client we run now. A new scrubbed in set for the rain, a set shaved down to 2-3/32" for quals and race , a set at maybe 4/32" for intermediates when the track has some water but no puddling and heat build up would be a problem midway thru the session as it dried if I ran the wets, and then a test day set just to pound around and get driver seat time and hopefully some chassis work done.

Not trying to be a jerk just being honest. I am all for it but as I said the last time it only works is if its nationwide. Nationals and Regionals with all the various iteration of club ford being included. Would be nice to have pro onboard but that ship has sailed with their new contract for Hoosier radials. Trackside service is a must, not everyone has access to people who are qualified to break down and remount lightweight racing wheels away from the track. I am lucky where I live the same guys who does the tires for my dually and transporter is an ex-super vee mechanic and can do all my wheels. But you ask about lightweight wheels and they all say " sure look at these polished aluminum road wheels we do" then you hand them a 3 piece Kodiak and they fold it up like a pretzel.

[David Clubine]

Where there is racing, there are complaints. Brian's comment was just plain wrong. The only two people I ever heard complain about the tires were David and one of his crew. Keeping in mind that David is the Canadian Dunlop distributor, I think context is important.
I am sure there are others who would prefer the advantage that buying tires more often provides, or the way the car feels, but I personally never heard any other complaints.

If we are keeping it in context, you might as well add that I have sold probably 60-70% of the Toyos used in the Canadian series, and Dunlop no longer have a knife in this fight.

My post was not meant to be anything but, does someone 2500 miles away have evidence to support a comment like that?


Please let me take this time to wish everyone, regardless of what chassis, engine or tire you use in f1600 a Happy and Successful New Year.

[swiftdrivr]

As I had no way of knowing if the 1600Pro tire was Hoosier's last word on the subject, I decided it would make sense to ask Hoosier themselves if they were interested in making a club spec FF tire. I sent an e-mail concerning this issue to Hoosier. Unfortunately, the road racing division won't be back in the office till Jan 5th. Hopefully I will get a reply, and post it here. Someone might want to send a follow up, maybe on the 6th or so, to indicate level of interest and help spur a real response beyond a polite, corporate "we will consider our options."

[Bob Wright]

Bruce Foss is very, very committed to Club racing as well as our Series. I think it is his hope that the radial tire Hoosier developed could be used both in Club and our Pro series to create some real economies of scale to everyone's benefit without sacrificing performance.

I find it a little disconcerting that this thread has basically dismissed the tire as a choice before it has ever had a chance to prove itself under race situations. We really don't know how long it will last except for what we learned at a two day test on a very abrasive track (which was pretty good by all accounts).

[Steve Bamford]

Bruce Foss is very, very committed to Club racing as well as our Series. I think it is his hope that the radial tire Hoosier developed could be used both in Club and our Pro series to create some real economies of scale to everyone's benefit without sacrificing performance.

I find it a little disconcerting that this thread has basically dismissed the tire as a choice before it has ever had a chance to prove itself under race situations. We really don't know how long it will last except for what we learned at a two day test on a very abrasive track (which was pretty good by all accounts).

Bob obviously nothing has been done yet with SCCA powers that be but sounds like they are working on things in the back ground. One issue people may currently see with the Hoosier radial is the PRICE. That being said perhaps they can have a club version of the same tire & sell for the $600.00 price that most are asking for. Without sponsorship dollars perhaps this will happen.

PBIR is a track that eats fronts, I have experienced that before. I am sure the Radial will be considered & Hoosier can also produce a treaded tire similar to the Toyo so they should not be ruled out. Really out of this thread & others, in my view at least, people are asking for a cheaper overall tire that lasts longer then the current slicks. Can also be used as a rain tire as well so less tires needed. Have everyone on one tire so there is no need to be playing tire of the week.

[SEComposites]

The other way to look at the significant number of votes for the Toyo is an interest in an all weather semi slick tire. I don't think that should be ignored. I wonder if there are any 'anti' Toyo voters who would be interested in a Hoosier racing treaded tire should that ever be on the table?

[Raceworks]

Bruce Foss is very, very committed to Club racing as well as our Series. I think it is his hope that the radial tire Hoosier developed could be used both in Club and our Pro series to create some real economies of scale to everyone's benefit without sacrificing performance.

I find it a little disconcerting that this thread has basically dismissed the tire as a choice before it has ever had a chance to prove itself under race situations. We really don't know how long it will last except for what we learned at a two day test on a very abrasive track (which was pretty good by all accounts).

It hasn't been "dismissed" it's just the least popular option right now. In large part because it's an unknown quantity.

The other options listed have been around for years, and particularly in the case of the Toyo have a lot of data points across a wide variety of chassis types. We know that either the R888 or the Hoosier Club Ford tire will require minimal setup changes (especially on the older cars). It also helps that both of those options are currently $300-$400 a set cheaper than the new pro tire.

By contrast, we only have one test, on one chassis type prepared by one team for the new pro tire. Even when we have a bunch of data at the end of the year club members are going to be prejudiced against it. The vast majority of cars in the Pro series are less than 10 years old: primarily Spectrums & Mygales. In club racing, the opposite is true. Over 3/4 the cars entered for the two Florida Majors weekends are 1993 or older (I really wish I sold Swift parts!).

[Garey Guzman]

Ben,
I work for an international company based in Japan. Despite the huge US market, it is very common for us to deal with differences in "Customer Expectation". Changes are made that make sense to the Japan designers but no sense to us in the actual market!

Because of this, I would be much happier with a Hoosier version of the tire you describe because I believe Hoosier is committed to US racing, Club racing and the general happiness of their customers, i.e. product/company loyalty. I don't know why Toyo changed from R1A to R888 and I don't know when/why they'd change from R888 to something else.

I'd really be interested in seeing what Hoosier can do for us regarding the overwhelming desire for a durable, consistent spec tire. BTW, if a tire will stay consistent and durable for 20 cycles, a price point a bit above $600 would be ok with me!

Garey

[problemchild]

I find it a little disconcerting that this thread has basically dismissed the tire as a choice before it has ever had a chance to prove itself under race situations. We really don't know how long it will last except for what we learned at a two day test on a very abrasive track (which was pretty good by all accounts).

Bruce had the opportunity to build all-weather tires for $625/set. He chose the dry/wet option for $2100 (1 dry/1 wet set). That is a 336% cost difference. There are plenty of classes for people that want to go 5 seconds a lap faster. I'll give Hoosier a chance to prove themselves but they chose to go in the direction they did.

[Garey Guzman]

Bruce had the opportunity to build all-weather tires for $625/set. He chose the dry/wet option for $2100 (1 dry/1 wet set). That is a 336% cost difference. There are plenty of classes for people that want to go 5 seconds a lap faster. I'll give Hoosier a chance to prove themselves but they chose to go in the direction they did.

Greg,
I think they went the direction they did due to the Pro series requests. If the Pro series is going to become a true step in the development ladder, a tire similar to the higher steps is necessary. I think it has been stated earlier that the Pro tire was developed SPECIFICALLY for the Pro series, not taking Club into account at all.

That said, I think Hoosier can do the same for Club, which will be a bigger market!

Garey

[swiftdrivr]

Just got an e-mail from Bruce Foss. Hoosier is very interested, not apparently opposed to building a tire for club as opposed to pro, and he said a 7 inch front R60 would be no problem at all. He is planning on looking at the discussion here, but his main problem is that we have not decided what we want from them. Perhaps a new poll that simply asked 'slick vs tread' and 'radial vs bias ply' would be useful, as those appear to be the real issues. [We all want magically fast, magically long lasting, nearly free tires.]

[Steve Bamford]

Greg does bring up a good point on the cost of rain tires as well when calculating total tire costs. The "treaded tire" discussed will never wear out when used as a rain, the same can not be said for a real rain tire. Last year at the Pittsburgh pro races in F2000 (yes I know we are discussing 1600) we ran rains in qualifying as did everyone else and after 10 mins or approx 10 laps the tires were done and lap times started to fall off for everyone. Pole times were set in the first 6 laps I believe. Those rains can never be used competitively again. That is a waste of dollars in my opinion.

[steve zemke]

Any response to Kevin Firlen's post that he will continue to carry multiple sets of tires for each track condition. That is why I am concerned about a treaded tire. Back in the 70's we ran a treaded tire class at Waterford Hills. Petered out when BFG left. I am all for a spec tire and a rule that says you have to race on the rubber you qualified on.

[Steve Bamford]

Any response to Kevin Firlen's post that he will continue to carry multiple sets of tires for each track condition. That is why I am concerned about a treaded tire. Back in the 70's we ran a treaded tire class at Waterford Hills. Petered out when BFG left. I am all for a spec tire and a rule that says you have to race on the rubber you qualified on.

it has been said on here more then once that in Canada there has been little to no value in tire shaving so really him wanting to have that many sets of tires is only a personal choice but not needed.

[Matt King]

Any response to Kevin Firlen's post that he will continue to carry multiple sets of tires for each track condition. That is why I am concerned about a treaded tire. Back in the 70's we ran a treaded tire class at Waterford Hills. Petered out when BFG left. I am all for a spec tire and a rule that says you have to race on the rubber you qualified on.

You can't stop people from frivolously overspending, but you can try to limit the advantages of doing so by specing the right tire. For example, there doesn't seem to be a large advantage to shaving the Toyos on light formula cars (as compared to heavy tintops), so if someone wants to spend the money to carry multiple sets in 1/32 increments, let them do it. It's still a much better situation than trying to compete against guys running stickers in every session.

[Jnovak]

Everyone really owes it to Hoosier to give them a chance to respond to the needs of the Club racer. I am sure they can do the job.

Also remember that while the 2015 season has not started it is difficult to make a massive change in the rules, like spec tires, in the time available. I suspect that a major rules change like this will require some serious lead time.

Just my opinion.

[old 59]

Any response to Kevin Firlen's post that he will continue to carry multiple sets of tires for each track condition.

From our experience, which is 2-3 years on the Toyo's, I think Kevin's client would soon feel he was wasting his money on 4 sets of tires. Ask me how I know.

[Garey Guzman]

Everyone really owes it to Hoosier to give them a chance to respond to the needs of the Club racer. I am sure they can do the job.

Absolutely! And while this thread is entertaining (and hopefully contains some useful info), I think we need SCCA to take point on this, since I'm assuming they are compiling data from letters and the survey they sent out.

I think that the (apparent) overwhelming desire for a spec tire, along with Hoosiers' desire to provide quality product to us, should lead to a quality tire we'd be happy with. And if they decide they can't, there are the Toyos.

[stonebridge20]

Seems like the majority are on the same page in what they "want" in a FF tire. $600 price point, 20 heat cycles minium, treaded (dry/wet), minimal geometry mods (bias), track support.

Now go ask Hoosier to build it.

[John Robinson II]

Steve and Greg,
Since you guys are pushing so hard for the toyos, would you be willing to do more testing for the good of the group? run them this year at all non pro races you attend and publish the results of lap time drop off, wear and feel. Also, run a shaved set to prove/disprove there is no advantage. If this works out in favor of the toyos you will have a whole season of testing up on everyone else.
I have stated before that I am going to get a set and test on them, probably at Atlanta, in preparation for the Kentledge Cup. but have absolutely no desire to run them for the entire season.

John