What Does FV need for the future?"

[Steve Davis]

Steve, thanks for the post as it help explains a lot.

Is there a way to allow the committee to have a strong say within the SCCA as it seems to be a group of FV peers?

I think the thing first to be decided is whether the (SCCA) FV Community would SUPPORT decisions made by the Committee. So far, I have not felt comfortable that the FV racer at large really CARES or believes that we are here and working for the class.

Although I have received numerous emails thanking us for the work we do, I have also received many that says we don't know what we are talking about and are not properly representing the "average racer". I have yet to receive the first one that says words to the effect "whatever you decide is best is OK with me". A true recognized Committee would need that kind of support for SCCA to recognize it .. and that's the way it SHOULD be IMHO.

The Committee has expended significant effort to determine just what the "average racer" really is ... and how many there are. I put together the FV Registry a number of years ago. At this point, we have more NON-SCCA registrants than we do SCCA members - after YEARS of trying to get everyone to sign up. We don't know if that's because there are NOT NEARLY AS MANY SCCA/FV) out there as we thought (we were guessing 400-500 across the US initially) or if the rest of them (beyond the 175 or so that we have in the registry .. many of which are not keeping up their email addresses as they change) just really don't CARE ... or if they haven't gotten "the word" - hard to believe after the last .. what, 6 or 7 years since the Registry was put on line. SCCA has accessible records (National Points Standings) for National drivers ... but NOTHING for regional only drivers. We have suggested that they need to track them as well, but .... I guess they don't have the man (or woman) power to do that. We have spent quite a few more hours trying to get help from the various divisions as to regional competitors that register for races ... but they are overworked volunteers too and don't have time to waste on this one class - so ONE out of the 8 divisions responded to my request for numbers. I have taken the RUNOFFS COMPETITORS List for the last 3 years and made attempts to reach the ones (some 25 or so) that are not in the registry. SCCA refused to provide any contact info (privacy and all that) so I have posted on the forums several times. We have picked up, maybe 3 or 4 members from that 25.

You have to wonder....

Steve, FV80

[FVRacer21]

What FV really needs is April to arrive so we have something to do besides post here.

I have asked a few times so I assume the data doesn't exist in a easily attainable format, but we have to consider is FV shrinking faster or slower than SCCA road racing as a whole? It would be interesting to understand if car shrinking counts is a FV or SCCA issue.

One data set that I believe has not been brought up - is there a list of weights at the run offs or nationals available anywhere? It would be interesting to see the car + driver weights of the fast guys.

Thanks,

Craig

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...tion-FINAL.pdf


http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...tion_FINAL.pdf

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...STER_FINAL.pdf

http://www.mvrscca.org/2008_National...STER_FINAL.pdf

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...ion_MASTER.pdf

Others can be found in SportsCar or Fastrack each year - March or April....does not seem to be stored on the net...

and I found this:

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...uide0609am.pdf

ChrisZ

[FVRacer21]

... I put together the FV Registry a number of years ago. At this point, we have more NON-SCCA registrants than we do SCCA members - after YEARS of trying to get everyone to sign up. We don't know if that's because there are NOT NEARLY AS MANY SCCA/FV) out there as we thought (we were guessing 400-500 across the US initially) or if the rest of them (beyond the 175 or so that we have in the registry .. many of which are not keeping up their email addresses as they change) just really don't CARE ... or if they haven't gotten "the word" - hard to believe after the last .. what, 6 or 7 years since the Registry was put on line. SCCA has accessible records (National Points Standings) for National drivers ... but NOTHING for regional only drivers. We have suggested that they need to track them as well, but .... I guess they don't have the man (or woman) power to do that. ....
Steve, FV80

I have asked many times that the SCCA collect information with membership. All they have to add is a field or two to your online membership.

Then you would maintain your profile -

You IT (not Improved Touring<grin>) guys out there will tell me it is not as easy as it sounds, but it would be a start and you could start collecting information. If you are an SCCA member, you should be demanding this function, so when the Comp Board asks for input - you are polled directly.

ChrisZ

[smsazzy]

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...tion-FINAL.pdf


http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...tion_FINAL.pdf

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...STER_FINAL.pdf

http://www.mvrscca.org/2008_National...STER_FINAL.pdf

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...ion_MASTER.pdf

Others can be found in SportsCar or Fastrack each year - March or April....does not seem to be stored on the net...

and I found this:

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...uide0609am.pdf

ChrisZ

We have the info for the national racers. What we're missing is the regional data. More specifically, names.

Also: FYI - Spec Tire Survey results posted: http://www.formulavee.org/interchang...forum.php?f=15

[Amon]

Chris,

Thanks for the numbers! National results only..:

Year Races # of racers Ave.
2007 71 585 8.23
2008 74 581 7.85
2009 71 515 7.25
2010 66 473 7.16
2011 72 467 6.48

** 118 less FV entrants in 2011 than 2007 with (1) additional race in 2011.


Mark

[hojof1]

The Committee has expended significant effort to determine just what the "average racer" really is ... and how many there are. I put together the FV Registry a number of years ago. At this point, we have more NON-SCCA registrants than we do SCCA members - after YEARS of trying to get everyone to sign up. We don't know if that's because there are NOT NEARLY AS MANY SCCA/FV) out there as we thought (we were guessing 400-500 across the US initially) or if the rest of them (beyond the 175 or so that we have in the registry .. many of which are not keeping up their email addresses as they change) just really don't CARE ... or if they haven't gotten "the word" - hard to believe after the last .. what, 6 or 7 years since the Registry was put on line. SCCA has accessible records (National Points Standings) for National drivers ... but NOTHING for regional only drivers. We have suggested that they need to track them as well, but .... I guess they don't have the man (or woman) power to do that. We have spent quite a few more hours trying to get help from the various divisions as to regional competitors that register for races ... but they are overworked volunteers too and don't have time to waste on this one class - so ONE out of the 8 divisions responded to my request for numbers. I have taken the RUNOFFS COMPETITORS List for the last 3 years and made attempts to reach the ones (some 25 or so) that are not in the registry. SCCA refused to provide any contact info (privacy and all that) so I have posted on the forums several times. We have picked up, maybe 3 or 4 members from that 25.

You have to wonder....

Steve, FV80

I'm sorry that it is that way, sounds similar to voter apathy when it comes to voting in national elections.

[rdfrancis]

I was thinking that fv-1 thru fv-3 could run in the same heat. Much better than running with FF or SRF and even the FV-3 drivers could have been FV drivers from the past.

[Tiago Santos]

I was a TV editor a few years back, so I *could* put a video together.. But it'll be tough to make it interesting, to be honest.. In-car video is great, but you really need lots of filler to make a "modern" looking promo Interviews, sound bites, paddock footage, track side footage..

It is quite an undertaking and would require a lot of time, that I don't necessarily have right now Still, I'd be happy to collect footage from people until I either have time to do it, or pass it around to someone that does. I'm not going anywhere, either. If I don't end up editing anything, at least the footage will be compiled and easily accessible to anyone that wants to take it on.

The way I envision something like this, it really needs to be action packed. Face it, in car footage in a vee, driving by itself, is not very exciting to watch. You might be setting an incredible track record and the average viewer will not be impressed in the slightest But if you have footage of crazy passes, crashes (sucks, but they get quite the attention..), tight pack racing, pace laps with big fields, etc. Then feel free to pass it on.

One idea I've had for a while is to build/rent/buy one of those fancy quadcopters that can fly themselves and hold altitude. These things can easily carry a camera.. Imagine the amazing footage you'd get from one of these flying over a pack of cars along a straight into a tight corner

[Bill Bonow]

Also: FYI - Spec Tire Survey results posted: http://www.formulavee.org/interchang...forum.php?f=15

Stephen,

Those results look very positive and from my personal perspective, not very surprizing.

Thank you for posting the link.

[smsazzy]

Please keep discussions on the other thread for consolidation.

Thank you!

[Amon]

Bill,

The survey showed 77% voting in favor of a "spec-tire", which is much higher
than what a certain Nostradamus from California predicted this past week.

Mark

[smsazzy]

Or not..... :-)

[Amon]

SMSazzy:

??????????

252 Respondents

Yes 195 / 77%

No 55 / 22%

2 Blank / 1%



Mark

[smsazzy]

Please keep discussions on the other thread for consolidation.

Thank you!

Sorry, I was referring to this.....

[Amon]

Thanks!

[hojof1]

I think it would be a good idea that this thread be closed so that discussion could move forward pertaining to the results of the survey. there's relevant data there that can be interpreted and built upon rather than continuing the banter here.

the one solid action that came from this thread (or the other long thread on apex) was the survey. JMHO

all the best

[Speed Sport Engineering]

I would like to see this thread removed, actually. It's served its purpose and if it shows up while anyone new is searching for info on FV's, it does not paint a pretty picture.

[Amon]

Mike,

Good point!

[Daryl DeArman]

In my opinion the picture may not be pretty but it's an accurate portrayl. In a nutshell you are not likely to find a group more willing to help each other out; lending a hand, sharing parts and info. A group who seem to really want the fields to grow but just so happen to disagree on how to do that.

If you want the perception to change, you've got to change that reality.

[problemchild]

Hiding the truth does no good. This discussion, and resulting polls and surveys, got the apathetic middle group to speak up and not be bullied by the vocal elite or lowly trouble-makers Progress!

We want people to come to our sport first ..... we want them to find the best class for them, for the right reasons ..... and we want them to stick around for a long time and become obsessed racers, risking spouses, jobs, family, etc to be involved. For many that will be FV. Based on this discussion, and the resulting directions being pursued, I am much more comfortable advising people that FV may be for them.

[Rolling Stone]

Ive been looking for a class to drive in..after reading these posts Im gonna join you guys!!!screw the ***** Formula Ford guys,the elite Formula first rich guys who get all the girls in their paddock!!!what a tough bunch of people you all are...real men!!!you take a 400 year old VW engine and build your own cars...and do magic things with manifolds etc,etc.You slag each other but take it and suck it up,so refreshing after my F1 days with LOTUS back in 1953.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........JUST KIDDING!!!!!!

[Rolling Stone]

GOOD LUCK to ALL you USA FV racers in the upcoming season from this F1200 Canadian racer hope all goes well.

[Bill Bonow]

I would like to see this thread removed, actually. It's served its purpose and if it shows up while anyone new is searching for info on FV's, it does not paint a pretty picture.

Mike,

This thread, although heated at times, did not break any of the "personal attack" rules here at Apex. We don't remove any threads/posts, other than spam. I think your looking at the thread in the wrong light. There is plenty of very good informative posts in the 600 some odd post thread.

All,

The trick is, as your writing your posts, remember that Apex is "the" mecca of open wheel forums. Just look around in the different areas and you'll see that Apex is where all the serious players can be found. What ever one posts will be read over and over by not only your pears, but by member of other open wheel classes, closed wheel classes, BOD member, CRB members and a ton of potential newbies. There are thousands of active members and hundreds of them are on line at any given time. There are also just as many guests at any given time. I know many are new to Apex (vs. the Interchange) and we welcome all. Please remember that you have a seriously larger audience over here

My point is, always think before you post.

With all that said, thanks to everyone that posted. Very well behaved and excellent points made by all sides and viewpoints.

[Steve Bamford]

Please keep discussions on the other thread for consolidation.

Thank you!

Too bad things have gotten quiet here after this post & seems a few but not as many have spoken out on the other site.

Sounds like there is a lot to do if people want to take the data from the survey & make a spec tire happen.

[Tiago Santos]

I'm not sure if there are lots of people who post here that do not have accounts at the FV interchange.. I visit apexspeed precisely because it's the mecca of open wheel forums, but I still consider the interchange the "official" FV forum..

I have a feeling the conversation on the other side is just starting to warm up.. Everyone needed a bit of a breather to let the results sink in and figure out what to do next.

[problemchild]

Those that wanted the discussion to quiet down were successful by burying it over there

[Steve Bamford]

I just don't feel that it is right to have so much discussion about a topic on Apexspeed then have someone say we should discuss it on another site. Based on the number of posts it seems there is much more interest from Apexspeed users.

Not sure that if I was running a website that I would appreciate moving the discussions to another website but I could be wrong.

[Bill Bonow]

There are a lot more eyes over here at Apex.

At this moment:

FV site: (4) veiwers

Apex: FV section veiwer total (29)

I think that the shear amount of veiws and posts may have frightened some

[Steve Davis]

FWIW,
The reason the results were posted on the Interchange is that the Committee felt it was more appropriate considering that we elected the Interchange some years ago for our "official" conference call minutes postings. Since this is Committee related we felt it more appropriate to post there rather than here.

You guys imply that we HID the results somewhere else, but as far as I can tell, pretty much EXACTLY the same people who raised all the ruckus over here are the SAME people that do most of the posting over there. There are likely a good many more people over here from other classes that drop by the FV forum to see what the heck we're doing NOW, but I don't really think there are more FV people here than there.

I could be wrong, but ... if they're here, they don't POST.

Steve, FV80

[Bill Bonow]

Steve,

Completely agree on the posting of the results at the Howden site, as that's where the poll took place.

I don't think there are necessarily more FV people here at ApexSpeed, but there are without a doubt, many many more eyes reading about FV. This thread has almost 13,000 views where on the FV site, the tire poll results thread (gotts figure that pretty hot at the moment) have just over 500 views. Big difference. Just as posted above, these veiwers contain potential future FV'ers.

Not trying to imply that one forum site has any more importance that the other, as it really will not effect the veiwing habbits of a large number of FV'ers. It was suggested in post # 610 and # 614 to "Please keep discussions on the other thread for consolidation". Many seem to read this as asking to redirect a very active thread that can help the class in a location where are very large number of people can read it. To me, that would look worse than anything contained within the 628 posts.

FV needs promotion and ApexSpeed is jammed with more potential racers than you will find just about anywhere. Use it to FV's advantage. Think positive and wonderful things will result.

BTW, You are correct....they don't all post, but they do read.

[Steve Bamford]

Steve,

Completely agree on the posting of the results at the Howden site, as that's where the poll took place.

I don't think there are necessarily more FV people here at ApexSpeed, but there are without a doubt, many many more eyes reading about FV. This thread has almost 13,000 views where on the FV site, the tire poll results thread (gotts figure that pretty hot at the moment) have just over 500 views. Big difference. Just as posted above, these veiwers contain potential future FV'ers.

Not trying to say here or there is better, I really don't care. Just don't try to c-block a very active thread that can help the class. To me, that would look worse than anything contained within the 628 posts.

FV needs promotion, this place is jammed with more potential racers than you will find just about anywhere. Use it to FV's advantage. Think positive and wonderful things will result.

BTW, You are correct....they don't all post, but they do read.

I think it still makes sense to continue the conversation on Apexspeed. What are the suggested next steps?

As for the committee that was created I think that is a great idea overall however with that said I believe to get total support from the FV community this needs to be an elected committee. If that can be done then I am hopefully more can be accomplished by our peers.

I am unaware of most of the committee members so please forgive me for speaking out of turn but it should have people from all levels of FV included. Engine & chassis builders along with top National competitors such as Michale V as well as regional racers. To be truely representative all levels need to be covered....maybe they are already, I am not aware so please forgive if I am wrong.

I believe this is something FV needs for the future & is relevant. Brian has mentioned that most here don't have the first clue on how the politics work to get something changed & as much as I dislike to agree with him, I must say he is probably right without some major changes nothing will happen.

[Amon]

Steven,

You're part of the Committee, so what are the immediate plans of the group in regards to the results of the survey? I assume there's a short term (90-180 days)
and long term plan in place (+ 6 mos.) to address the survey results and move
forward with the implementation of the "spec-tire"? If not, why and when does the
committee plan on meeting to discuss the results?

Thanks!

Mark

92' Protoform P-2/05'

[SOseth]

Steven,

You're part of the Committee, so what are the immediate plans of the group in regards to the results of the survey? I assume there's a short term (90-180 days)
and long term plan in place (+ 6 mos.) to address the survey results and move
forward with the implementation of the "spec-tire"? If not, why and when does the
committee plan on meeting to discuss the results?

Thanks!

Mark

92' Protoform P-2/05'

The Committee meets on the 4th Wednesday of every month. Spec Tire will be discussed this week at which time we will put together a plan of action. The minutes of the meeting will be posted as they have from the beginning. Some members have already initciated contact with a couple of the tire manufacturers. Most of us have real jobs so please let's be patient with the process.

SteveO

[Amon]

SteveO,

Thanks for getting back to us and letting us know the Committee's schedule!

Much appreciated!


Mark

[tsiembieda]

What I'd like to see from the National office is more support for the regional only drivers why not a Majors program for those drivers? Not everyone wants to compete at the national level.

I myself have no interest in racing at the National level or the Runoffs. I just want to run a 2 - 3 races a year and have some fun and not go broke doing it.

For what is worth I think SCCA needs to make it easier to get people out on track not harder, which seems to be the current path the club is on. I do understand the costs associated with putting on a drives school and that for the most part they either break even or loose money. But when a division only holds one double drivers school a year it really limits anyone who wants to come out a race. Miss the school and your opportunities to get on track that year become really limited. I missed my first school and had three choices; traveling out of division, spending thousands of dollars at a pro school or sit out and wait for next years school. I waited and now I'm on my second novice permit.

If you want to grow the class and club racing make it easier to get the new drivers on track. Having a spec tire is not going to get me racing more. A reasonable/affordable entry fee, and the rules that don't limit when and where I can race will do more to get me out on track and help the class and club racing as a whole.

[budawe]

SCCA has initiated an alternative driving school for those who have missed the usual annual school. Some of the details are being worked out and it may mean that you have to have prior experience, but if you can contact your divisional license administrator or watch for a formal announcement on the web site there will be a new path to a license.

Today's economic conditions pretty much define all spending nowadays. It would be nice if SCCA could control those economic conditions but it can't. SCCA is well aware of the hurdles facing new and existing competitors but at the same time, can't reduce the safety standards, change what tracks charge, or control the cost of fuel. For me personally, travel is the big wallet buster.

[BLS]

Brian, could you post any details? Nothing I can find on the website. I have my medical scheduled for thursday morning, then will apply for the novice permit. Schools are tough becuse there are so few. Races are easy, lots of those.

[Steve Davis]

Barry,
As a former license holder, feel free to reach out to your divisional licensing steward and ASK for a waiver. A LOT of people do not realize that you CAN do that. If you have multiple years (with more than 1 event per year) under your belt, it should be a slam dunk to waiver you to compete on a novice permit for a regional or 2 to get to your legit "no waiver required" license.

It never hurts to ask...
Steve, FV80

[Amon]

Bls,

There's a Double School at Beaverun the 3rd weekend of April if there's none closer
to your home..

Mark

[BLS]

Steve, no I did not realize that. As you say, can't hurt to ask and I will do that. Thanks very much for the tip! Even if I could eliminate one school that would allow make it much easier.

Amon, there are schools scheduled, the timing just never seems to work with my travel schedule. There are enough races just few schools.