Super vee engine questions

[Scirocco14gp]

Hi,

I recently purchased a used water cooled Super Vee engine that was sitting in a garage for quite some time. It has "JZ 010" stamped on the block where the engine number normally is. It has a fuel injection manifold with trumpets, a Brabham valve cover, a drysump pump and pan, Mallory electronic ignition box that mounted to the front of the block, and a matching Mallory distributor, and other Super Vee bits and pieces.

I am planning on using the short block for my G-prod Scirocco, but was curious if anyone could tell me anything about the engine based on the serial number stamped on it? I was told it was built by Judd/Brabham but I don't always believe everything I'm told! It definitely was used in a Super Vee chassis, based on the dry sump pan, engine plate, etc.

Thanks for any info,

Mark

[Steve Demeter]

It might have been built by John Zeitler (JZ) who built quite a few air and water cooled SV engines.

[Scirocco14gp]

It might have been built by John Zeitler (JZ) who built quite a few air and water cooled SV engines.

Thanks, is there any place I can find out more about John Zeitler?

Mark

[RobLav]

I doubt Zeitler would have put a Brabham valve cover on his engine, since he had his own made up. My old Tui had a Zeitler engine. If this engine has all the original mechanical fuel injection components, it's too bad it won't go back in a SuperVee. Is this the long stroke or short stroke crank?

[Scirocco14gp]

I doubt Zeitler would have put a Brabham valve cover on his engine, since he had his own made up. My old Tui had a Zeitler engine. If this engine has all the original mechanical fuel injection components, it's too bad it won't go back in a SuperVee. Is this the long stroke or short stroke crank?

Thanks, Rob! It is a 1.6 short block, 80 mm stroke x 80 mm bore. When I get the motor apart, maybe I can tell something about the pistons from the underside (mfr).

Interesting about the Brabham valve cover, not sure if this engine was cobbled from various sources? We didn't get the injection pump or injectors (we bought it on eBay), but did get the intake manifold, complete with butterflies and linkage, and threaded bosses for injectors in the manifold. The trumpets/air horn assembly has a provision (mounting plate/flange) for an airbox, but we didn't get that either.

I don't know if the cylinder head has any unusual markings/stampings on it, I didn't look at it close enough before I left. My dad has the cylinder head/intake manifold parts and I have the short block and dry sump parts. There is a cam in the cylinder head, but again I haven't looked at it closely.


Do you think there would be interest in the engine from vintage Super Vee racers? I'd hate to separate the engine if there was any historical value to it. I plan on putting in a set of Carillos that I have (136mm) and using it for my G-prod motor at the Runoffs this year. I wish I could run the big valve head that came with it, but I have to use the small valves in G-prod.

Thanks to everyone for their replies!

MC

[Scirocco14gp]

Well, if I had turned the motor OVER, I might have had a better clue. The dry sump pan has ZEITLER cast into it! I took the pan off, and the pistons say "Cosworth" on the underside. Stock rods, but lightened and polished.

So I guess maybe it came from Zeitler originally?

Thanks everyone for their help, at least I have some idea where the motor originated.

Mark

[RobLav]

Great - nice to know that. So much for my comment about Zeitler putting a Brabham valve cover on...

[Scirocco14gp]

Anyone have an idea of what the cylinder head would be worth, including valves and cam? The valves are racing valves, not OEM valves. Stock buckets/shim setup came with it. Don't know about the cam, I could degree it to get an idea of it's profile.

I can't use the cylinder head in GProduction, so it might help someone w/ a Super Vee.

MC

[RussMcB]

Mark, they really aren't worth very much.

Um, it's not too obvious that I'm a potential buyer, is it? :-).

In an ideal situation, I'd have my engine builder inspect it and tell me what he'd charge to get it ready for use. Then I'd use that information and combine it with: 1) How badly do I need a head? and 2) How much money do I have? With those three pieces of information, then I'd know how much I'd be willing to pay.

From your P.O.V., you need to find someone who desparately needs a head now and has lots of money. Hard to say what the market is like. Hopefully, I'm the only one who is willing to give you a plug nickle for the piece of junk. :-).

[Scirocco14gp]

Mark, they really aren't worth very much.

Um, it's not too obvious that I'm a potential buyer, is it? :-).

In an ideal situation, I'd have my engine builder inspect it and tell me what he'd charge to get it ready for use. Then I'd use that information and combine it with: 1) How badly do I need a head? and 2) How much money do I have? With those three pieces of information, then I'd know how much I'd be willing to pay.

From your P.O.V., you need to find someone who desparately needs a head now and has lots of money. Hard to say what the market is like. Hopefully, I'm the only one who is willing to give you a plug nickle for the piece of junk. :-).

As I've learned in life, something is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay! I just have no idea of what Super Vee stuff is worth, as opposed to "regular" VW stuff. The cylinder head is legal to use in GT4/GTL but the VW racers in that class are almost non-existant.

On Bertils' site, he charges $1600 for a blank head that has been ported, seats installed and guides. The porting work is exquisite, so someone knew what they were doing. That is the the state of the cylinder head, except that I also have the valves for it. I figured I'd look at Bertils' site just for comparison purposes, of course!

MC

[RobLav]

The less valuable heads are the ones that have not had the shim conversion. The stock configuration tended to spit the shims out at high rpm - with the associated mess.

[Scirocco14gp]

The less valuable heads are the ones that have not had the shim conversion. The stock configuration tended to spit the shims out at high rpm - with the associated mess.

I agree, and I'm having a cylinder head built for my G-Prod car that has the shim conversion.

MC

[formulasuper]

Also, even though the porting work my look great, it could have been done in someones garage and never matched from cylinder to cylinder or flow checked on a bench. The stock buckets & shims are worthless for high RPM engines & the "shim caps under buckets" style are very expensive. Also, since it has not been bored for the 37mm buckets that allow the use of the large diameter max performance valve springs, (see Bertilsengines.com), it most likely can not accept a very high lift cam. A good complete SuperVee head set up for max performance will run over $5000.00 and may only last a few minutes! Guess how I know.

[Ken Glasser]

I don't know too much about the SV so maybe someone can help me sort out the rumors from the truth.

I knew there were 1.6 L's and 1.8 L's
I have heard that some/most were handgrenades
I have heard that the 1.8's have two different heads that were available
I have now idea how many heads were available for 1.6 L's
I have know idea how to tell one head from the other

my last experience with a Zeitler was an old FV and its a completely different animal.

[formulasuper]

Get a copy of "Water-Cooled Volkswagen Performance Handbook" by Greg Raven, MBI Publishing Company, 1999. Classic Motorbooks, 1.800.826.6600 or www.motorbooks.com
Tells everything you ever wanted to know & were not afraid to ask about watercooled VWs.

[Riaanc]

I have to agree with formulasupers advice on the Greg Raven book.

We race VW engined cars in Soiuth Africa- although the 1.8L bored to 2l with Polo racing pistons etc etc.

The book is worth it's weight in gold.

Regards
Riaan