The internet wasn't even around when I dropped out and to be clear it was only one of the many reasons. If there is a question of tires only active drivers should have a say. It's their wallet.....
The internet wasn't even around when I dropped out and to be clear it was only one of the many reasons. If there is a question of tires only active drivers should have a say. It's their wallet.....
1) I routinely raced FV in the rain on slicks when I was young because A) I could not afford rain tires that were seldom used and B) unlike slicks there were no takeoffs to help with tire cost. The Yoko is a great improvement over slicks...Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
2) Neither of us know the answer, but you may not realize that A) the tariff is imposed on the wholesale import price which is probably half the retail price and B) sellers often raise the price of current inventory to the current replacement level. In either case we are not taliking about a huge difference and the Yoko's are far, far less expensive than the Hoosier.
3) I'm sure Hoosier is fine, never thought anything different. I doubt the FV tire is a very large part of their business.
I don't recall suggesting Hoosier must start a new product line. It does seem they are interested in doing so however as I understand several people are testing new design tires...
"I do not think the size of the run has much to do with the cost..."
I cannot say what it means for Hoosier, but as an engineer involved with manufacturing I can say it is often very difficult to make small numbers, small runs, and do so profitably. We very often design special machinery so companies can make small runs and at least break even... YMMV
Tire survey was emailed out. It appears it was sent to all FV drivers, not just SCCA
I wonder how you get on that mailing list as I didn't receive an email...
Maybe because my license lapsed some time ago? I am in process of reviving it this year.
Hey, Brian.
When was this?
Glenn
Talking about stacking the deck....
SCCA's "survey"...Certainly an 'exhaustive query'? No?We the SCCA Club Racing Board want your opinion on Formula Vee Tires
2025 FV Tire Survey We're running a survey and would love your input. Please let us know what you think below. Thanks for participating! Is it your preference to race a slick or treaded radial tire?
Steve, FV80
Racing since '73 - FV since '77
Steve,
I fell prey to that. Once you answer the first question, the rest of the survey opens up. A lot of questions.
don’t know who formatted the survey, but it was not a good opening question.
I also hear some of the questions are not easy to put in ranked order. Maybe if you take a lot of surveys, but I specifically don’t take all the ones they send you after you buy something or visit a medical provider….
for anyone who has taken the survey, do they give a cutoff date? Can you start the survey and save but not send?
I am testing some radials this weekend and would like to wait until Monday before filling it out.
I also think people who are not current SCCA, but are considering it, should be included, with the ability to filter these people. Maybe some way to invite those active who either were left off the mailing, or people outside the set of current SCCA drivers.
Again, not having done it, it would have been nice if the email had some instructions.
ChrisZ
There are about 20 questions. It should be open to all fv drivers since you can answer "I have raced 0 scca races last year, and 5 drivers cup races last year". But it seems like they only sent it to people who have ran scca fv recently.
I would email roadracing@scca.com if you are thinking about running an fv in scca in the next 5 years and tires choice is stopping you from participating, maybe they will send it to you.
The way the email comes through it does appear to be a one question survey(It is NOT one question once you click an answer it opens the actual survey).
Is that just the way it happened or is it by design?
The answer to that question is unknown to me, although I can certainly see some people being confused as to the seeming simplicity. I can certainly see people deleting the email simply because of the one-question look.
There are 39 questions.
The "General Tire Considerations" in the preamble to the survey is full of anti-street radial bias.
I did not answer question 17, as the question is immaterial and improperly worded. I do believe the intent was what lap time increase is acceptable, not lap time reduction. The lap time differential of Yokos to Hoosier FVS varies from nil to maybe .5 seconds, depending on track and conditions. It is honestly within the margin of error and doesn't matter a whit. At LRP the fastest lap of the weekend was on 25 heat cycle Yokos. "Assuming" indeed.
And answering questions about how many races of which series might I attend or would I go to the runoffs is difficult at best. It is hard to predict the future of this guy on his 3rd season of racing starting at 59 years old.
But hey, I did the survey.
To answer ChrisZ, there is no indication of a deadline in the survey.
Last edited by DannyPip; 07.02.25 at 1:12 PM.
Yokos vs Hoosiers Performance
Even though I bleed purple I'm very interested in seeing more comments of the performance of the 2 tires before I submit my survey.
I find these comments very surprising!
"The lap time differential of Yokos to Hoosier FVS varies from nil to maybe .5 seconds, depending on track and conditions.
And
At LRP the fastest lap of the weekend was on 25 heat cycle Yokos."
I like the FVS tire because it has made some easy flat out sections on 55's less than flat out and therefor more challenging.
For those who have completed the survey, does it automatically submit with the last question or do you have to press a "submit" button?
ChrisZ
Somebody post up the rest of the survey for those of us that did not get it. I'd like to see what is in it.
Thanks!
I sent an email, we'll see if they return a survey
There are far too many variables in the situation described above. The draft itself can amount to 1-2 seconds per lap.
General rule of thumb is the radial is 2-7+ seconds per lap slower depending on the track. (This is lap record vs lap record of slick vs radials)
The radial is a great tire and has a lot of advantages but its not as fast as a slick. No one is showing up to a competitive major and winning over slick cars.
Brian
There is a "DONE" button at the very bottom to submit your answers.
Survey pdf
I uploaded the pdf of the survey I saved. Cheers.
Thanks Danny!
It appears to be a good survey in spite of the apparent misleading way it first appears in your inbox. I find that content creators often cannot see the forest for the tree's - and I am also guilty of that.
I'll just wait and see if SCCA responds to me, but they may be keeping it exclusive to current licensed drivers. If so since there is no current time frame I will send a response in when I receive my license.
Barry
At LRP, which is a very fast track, the extra drag from the wider Yokos causing a loss of track time was not apparent. The FVS and Yokos were equal for the fastest competitors.
Yokos are a DOT street radial. Hoosier is testing a racing radial. Same size as Yokos but non-DOT with race tire construction and compound. It will be fast than the FVS at all tracks except maybe Road America.
The essence of this possible spec tire change is: Do competitors want use a wider tire that has equal or better performance and has much better longevity, 2-4 X the heat cycles. There is no requirement for a DOT tire. So for Hoosier at least, any combination of performance and longevity is possible.
BUT all these gains that come from a wider tire, require the purchase of a $600-$800 set of aluminum wheels.
I have a set of the Hoosiers to test on the West coast. Check PM if you are interested.
Brian
To ALL:
Here is how you can get the survey, note from SCCA
<snip>
"John - While I can't provide a link to the survey, folks are welcome to email roadracing@scca.com with their FV participation connection and we will send them a survey. The survey is linked to the email we send it to.."
John Ferreira
FV 15
You can pay $600-800 dollars a set, but I found these new for $75/per and they meet all the requirements
I usually keep quiet during these discussions.
Brian, Couple questions, as I would like the opinion from someone at the pointy end of this Class. Not sure if you want the radial or not. But,
"Why does it matter?"
We could all be running rocks as tires and as long as were all on the same rocks, why does it matter the tire. Were running 60hp VW's, lets be honest it will never be the fastest thing, the guys at the pointy end will always be there and competitive, but if we can save money, keep the racing just as fun & competitive (against equal rocks) and have more places to run, more people to run with (no matter where you are in the stack) why not?
My point is, WHY would we not want the same tire for all FV's in the country? And to that end, if Yoko or Hoosier makes the most cost effective tire for fun competition, why are we not running to adopt this tire.. I do think that doing this every few years should be avoided, but the advantages of the yoko radial over the slick in cost and lifespan is undeniable.
We have been trying to get more cars out of the garages and on track. If someone can buy 1 set of tires and use them for three years, even if its only one or two races a year, that is still better than the car sitting.
I ran at Lime Rock the other weekend against the radial. I was on slicks. IMO that tire will be just as competitive, fun, save us all money and keep everyone on the same tire. I guess I'm not seeing the downside.
Regards,
Robert Detrick
My car finished 2nd at the '25 June Sprints, does that qualify for the pointy end of the field?
1) Farnham's main goal I believe was to allow Yokos at SCCA Major events so as to increase class head count. I would say the survey goes way beyond that.
2) In the past when the FVS tire was settled on as the spec tire for FV, ON STOCK WHEELS, the competitors chose performance over longevity. This survey is trying to determine if that preference has changed and to what extent.
Now, if we are going to be buying wheels, then there are all kinds of possibilities. With a racing radial you can have any number of performance vs longevity combinations. Could use FF tires like FST. The DOT radials will generally provide the compromise you have with the current Yokos.
Brian
Robert,
I'm of the opinion that I dont care what tire i race on as long as everyone is on equal footing. My original post was to correct the misinformation of the radials being equal or only half a second slower which simply isn't true.
What has been said behind the scenes is that there is a group of competitors who like racing on slick tires and dont want to run a radial. Some have gone as far to say they'll stop racing if the slicks go away. We're in a great period of time with fierce competition at the national level, I dont want to see that go away with a tire change.
The radial is more forgiving than a slick and the slick is more difficult to drive on the edge. That all has to do with slip angle of the tire and such. Also the draft is more powerful with the wider radials, we already had 10 cars in the lead pack with the slicks. With the radials will we have 15-20 at Road America?
What my big concern is there is a group of regional racers that want to force the national racers to go to a radial tire. My question is why? You can currently go run radials in the North East, Challenege cup and DriverZ cup. Why try to take away others choice to run a slick tire?
The whole point of my letter to allow radial tires at the national level was to encourage some cross over. If someone wanted to do the runoffs then they could run 3 majors on radials and save some money. FF allowing the two types of tires has worked out very well.
I'm not going to name names but there are a select few pushing the radial deal on everyone and it needs to stop. For the good of the class allow everyone to have an option and everyone is happy. Force something they dont want and watch the numbers decline at a national level.
Brian
Last edited by B Farnham; 07.03.25 at 9:54 PM.
I agree with your first sentence, Brian.
If you are insinuating that the guys in the Northeast(John, myself, and a few others) that are "pushing" the radials are advocating for a complete changeover, you would be incorrect. If that is not what you are saying, I apologize. I would like to know the group that is advocating for that change.
We have asked for a nationally recognized(SCCA Topeka) regional-only class so that we can run the Yoko A052 anywhere in the country. That's it. We've ALWAYS stated that we aren't trying to ruin the class, split the group, or require anyone to change if they don't want to.
We are about fun, saving money, and well, fun. And getting garaged racers OUT to the track. More cars on track, racing together, regionally has always been our goal. Maintaining and growing the class is very important to us, as it should be to every FV driver.
We've proven, at least in the Northeast, that the Yokos can be run together with slicks in the same run group SAFELY and COMPETITIVELY.
We don't want a tire war, a class war, or anything of that nature. We don't want to force anyone to change from the FVS slicks if that's what they want to run. We NEVER wanted to test tires and come up with a better mousetrap(Hoosier radial) that some(one or two guys, in a position of SCCA influence) are actually "pushing".
P.S.: It was a pleasure meeting you and your Dad at Mid-Ohio.
Cheers,
Danny
1) There is an aspect of this where it should be recognized that the FVS Major competitors do not want radial competitor upsetting their race. This is very similar to FC and FE2, where one car is faster on the straights and the other in the turns.
2) We are making an exception for a very few radial competitors who are not seriously competing at the Majors level. We have Regional racing with all its exceptions for a reason.
Brian
Honestly, what is your deal? I've tried to simply ignore your incorrect posts.
1) We're totally OK with Major competitors doing their thing. I don't think regional radial guys even want to run majors. " Messing up their race", who the heck do you think you are? It's just club racing...the joy of FV for me is the friendly paddock.
2) You've got it all turned around and backwards. Radial entries for FV outnumber slick entries in the world, as well as the US.
P.S.
I ordered another set of rims last night, as I'm building another car.
I paid $113.05 each shipped, no tax. Not expensive at all, IMHO.
They will be straight, not leak, and not rust.
1) I think this is a bad comparison. The difference in a FV on the two different tires does not in any way compare with the difference in FC and FE2. How do FVS Major competitors feel about being banished from HST Majors? How do FVS Major competitors feel about running with FF and F6 cars (far worse than your FC/FE2 comparison)? Perhaps if the FV class entry count goes up substantially that would change.
2) Would more radial competitors participate in majors if radials are allowed? I have no answer to that. Much of the success of the radial clubs are the single class racing that comes from lowering tire costs for the group. If 20 cars on radials show up to majors races, how will that effect the run group? I only see a positive in that aspect.
IMO, the problem here is unstated - the Yoko tires are close enough in speed and the cost is so much less that if allowed it threatens the FVS market. If the rules allow both, the Yoko's will crowd out the FVS to the point of Hoosier possibly dropping the production. This is a problem for Hoosier and the SCCA that wishes to maintain the Hoosier contract. The solution, IMO, is for Hoosier to produce a tire with much greater longevity to reduce cost for a cost conscious class.
FV has already been removed from HST Majors - why would you be surprised if they were removed from all majors? What is the only solution to that? Increase the FV car counts at majors races.
I am Brian Harding, FV32, car & engine builder, and maker of 'Monster Manies'. A guy who traveled 6-7000 miles to race at the LRP race. Think I have earned the right to a place at the table.
The main focus for most Major competitors is winning the race, not the paddock social.
Brian
It is a perfect comparison! FV radials are slower on the straights and faster in the turns. FC are slower on the straights and faster in the turns. What am I getting wrong?
The main focus of SCCA is competitors for the Runoffs through the Majors program. Regional competitors on radials have no relevance to the approach.
Brian
The Geographic Component
I am not an FV competitor. Never have been. Just a semi retired Steward who once upon a time raced FF (and Prod and CSR.) What I bring to this conversation is observations from having raced in two different SCCA Divisions and been a working steward at races in all but SCCA's two west coast divisions. I speak for no one but myself.
One of the so far missing components in this discussion is the substantial differences in numbers across the country. While there may be a division between Majors and Regional competitors in the larger divisions, things are far less so to the point where, in SCCA's smallest Division, Rocky Mountain, the entry for a majors is indistinguishable from a Regional.
Numbers matter, but the Club also has a responsibility to not disenfranchise anyone. It seems to me, this issue is akin to trying to balance something on the head of a pin. Crafting a rule that satisfies everyone, at least from the discussion here, is going to be a herculean task. I would suggest everyone recognize the difficulty facing the Club on this issue and not turn this into another in a long line of the Clubs rancorous situations.
Peter Olivola
(polivola@gmail.com)
Dude, you are missing the point. Nothing new here.
I would love to win a race. I'm not there yet. Maybe I never will be. But then again, I might. Give me some time.
My reference to the paddock is that FV has always been a friendly environment from my perspective. Competitive, YES. But still people and community oriented. It's club racing, not professional.
I've heard from others that other race groups aren't so friendly. Maybe that's how it is at the Runoffs, I've never been.
Also, I agree with Barry. The speed differential of an FV on two different tires is NOT even close to the disparity of FC and FE2.
Brian F and Peter have asked for the BS to stop. So, Mister Harding, stop. I will if you will.
About 20 years ago Bob Lybarger told me there were two types of Formula Vee drivers. Those that raced to have fun with good competition and those that wanted to stand on the podium at the Runoffs. I don’t believe anything has changed and that’s alright.
I do see some irony in SCCA dropping Formula Vee from HOOSIER Super Tour events and Hoosier being talked to about a radial for Formula Vee. My opinion is that racing Super Tour/Majors is expensive. so competitors do the minimum to qualify and save the cash for the Runoffs. There have been Majors/ Super Tour fields of Vees in the past few years that you could count the entrants on one hand, but the field at the Runoffs was very well subscribed. From a business, cash, drivers standpoint it makes perfect sense.
Personally, I don’t want a Hoosier radial to be the spec, as we become a captive audience at the mercy of Hoosier. No offense. I want a high-volume tire that is reasonably priced from a company that doesn’t have “a dog in the hunt”. If Majors/Super Tour drivers want to spend $5K on a set of slick tires that lasts one weekend, more/less, that’s fine with me. I’m not sure formula /purpose-built race cars fit into SCCA’s business model, but as history tells us, SCCA might not know their own business model.
I’d suggest each group work hard keeping their own sector alive, common ground may not exist.
"Those that raced to have fun with good competition and those that wanted to stand on the podium at the Runoffs."
Probably true to some extent, but I can think of quite a few that want and achieve both. I'm sure you can as well.
This is what sent you off today on your BS claims. Please demonstrate where I have made a false statement?
1) The statement comparing FC/FE2 to a possible FVS/Radial situation makes no reference to the level of difference, just that there the possibility of interference. What is so upsetting about this?
2) No clue about what is false about this statement.
I will continue to post, as I don't see this conversation going much farther than a few people on Apex. At a minimum it is entertaining.
Brian
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