"Grasscrete" Added To The Kink at Road America
So, according to the final comments in the video, it will still be a hazard but not kick up as much dust.
Glenn
"Grasscrete"
When we were there for the June Sprints it was explained to us that it was put there for several reasons: less rutting, less dust, and less maintenance needed due to cars continually running off into that area. And compared to solid pavement, less traction due to the "egg-crate" surface, meaning drivers will be less tempted to intentionally use it as an extension of the racetrack than they would be if the track had just been widened.
Last edited by DaveW; 06.19.25 at 8:00 PM. Reason: Clarified my logic
Dave Weitzenhof
The original grass wasn't much of an extension either (as I painfully learned several years ago)...LMAO...Originally Posted by DaveW
Leave the turn alone!
This is motor racing.... old school. You do not do the turn correctly, you pay a price. Something greater than just a slow lap time.
Brian
According to Dave, that's part of what the change is meant to accomplish.
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You’re complaining because they made an improvement that has absolutely no bearing on those that do the turn correctly, but should make it safer for those that do get it wrong a prevent a situation where 3 drivers are cut out of their cars and airlifted like we saw last year? I seem to remember similarly callous posts from you the last time someone was killed there too.
Van Diemen RF99 FC
Correct. As I tried to say in my previous post, a slower lap time rather than a major incident.
Dave Weitzenhof
I would like to see this approach/solution taken at a few corners at some other tracks...
Chris Robson
R-Motorsports
Performance Coaching and Race Rentals
As I recall, the Nurburgring remained virtually unchanged as the cars/drivers were getting exponentially faster...until it was considered too dangerous and abandoned as a G.P. circuit. Perhaps gradual improvements would have kept it as the premiere track.
What's wrong with occasional improvements and maybe safer racing?
Even in a vintage F1 or Indy car, I'd prefer to have 3-layers of nomex & a Snell helmet over tee-shirts & tin hats.
Glenn
P.S. For me, "glory" and bragging rights come from my accomplishments (big or small) not my disasters or tragedies.
Note to Self:
Starve a cold, feed a fever.
Once we think we’ve mastered something, it’s over
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Has anyone run the motorcycle course where they add an interesting chicane around the kink?
For club racing, would that be a consideration and leave the kink to the professionals, such as IndyCar and IMSA? It will take away the allure, and maybe some medivac rides, but wondered if this was ever discussed and the responses.
The picture attached to the Milwaukee Sentinel article is from the accident at the Kink during the September 2022 VSCDA Formula Ford race. I was an unwilling participant in that accident and am on the opposite side of the cloud of smoke about to impact the blue car. In this case, someone spun and there was simply nowhere to go, taking out myself and several other cars.
While the track modifications being discussed might be helpful in certain situations, they wouldn't have improved the outcome of this incident.
This also doesn't do anything to improve the look-ahead inadequacy of that corner. Still plenty of opportunity to steam in there blind and full-tilt to an incident, before a dust cloud can give any warning.
I am firmly in the camp of thought that the inside wall needs to be knocked back further from the track to provide better visibility - without changing the racing surface.
...and IMO if you, as an amateur racer, go in there full-tits with a dust cloud looming... you still have something to learn about your own mortality.
That is a very logical, and, IMO, valid suggestion. I wonder why it hasn't already been done.
Answering my own question - likely because it would be a huge, time consuming, and extremely expensive project.
Last edited by DaveW; 06.21.25 at 12:22 PM.
Dave Weitzenhof
So what is it worth to improve the Kink's safety? Are you guys willing to increase entry fees... $200-$500 per event?
Are other competitors going to agree?
I doubt the pro organizations are going to buy in.
Brian
Already been happening for the past 20-or-so years and look at the entry fees over the same time period.
Now look at the "new and improved" paddock.
I don't believe cutting about 200 feet of hill back about 15 feet would be a budget-buster for this place.
Glenn
Ironically if you go to Google Maps, the street view runs the chicane.
Looks like some ledge on the inside - but looks like it could be done - even 10 feet could be seconds of warning.
There are some videos on YouTube with cars driving the Chicane.
I spoke so someone who raced bikes and he thought it might create another passing zone.
ChrisZ
I thought I might mention that a large facility like Road America should have a decent backhoe and hopefully a competent person who can operate it. So unless the area to be cut back is solid rock, which I don't think so, since if I remember most of the area is sand and gravel.
I did the excavation for my building with a small compact backhoe over two months of working on the weekends and my largest depth was 5'. My area is shale below 6" down but I do have a lot of experience operating backhoes. So if you already own the equipment then do it yourself. No need to contract it out. Just remember a full time employee really doesn't cost anything additional since it is a constant fixed cost of operating the track.
Ed
My take (not that you asked for it...)
At the June Sprints, the "grasscrete" did what it was installed for: to eliminate the obscuring dust that gets kicked up when someone overdrives the corner (no one does that intentionally) and to further disincentivize overdriving the corner (not too many went out there, and those that did, did not kick up a lot of dust...probably had to change undies, tho...)
SCCA/Chicago Region also implemented a "new" flagging procedure whereas any obscuring of downstream visibility would immediately result in a waving yellow.* This was discussed in the driver's meetings.
IMO, cutting back that hill area without reshaping the track radius would have no effect on the safety that corner. Given the same radius and the same outside wall the actual risk is the same; being able to see around the corner would increase confidence so more drivers would be incentivized into going into it balls out ("risk compensation").
And, after all, that's what our corner workers are for; are we suggesting that we completely eliminate all blind corners and all race tracks all around the country simply because a corner is considered "dangerous"?
I am assuredly not in the "suck it up Buttercup" camp where someone wants to believe we're still wearing scarves streaming in the breeze, but in trying to eliminate risk in this manner, by making a corner "feel" safer without actually making it safer, comes with its own problems. And in this case, it does not actually change the danger of that corner.
As an aside, I heard that the moto chicane was discussed (in fact, a little birdie told me that they saw "powers that be" looking it over later in the week at the '24 Runoffs) but that option was declined, for whatever reasons.
If you want to see what the grasscrete looks like without having to walk out there, they installed a section of it at the entrance to the track. Pull over next time you go in a check it out.
GA
*When I was F&C in the 80s, it seemed like it was SOP to toss a waving if you could not see the downstream station, such as with fog. I don't know why (if?) that changed but Race Director Steve Pence did point out at the driver's meeting that, paraphrased, "I'm concerned that if we use the waving yellow in that scenario and you go through to find nothing there, that you may think there's nothing there next time you see a waving yellow. Ask Jim Drago [on site that weekend] what decision he would make".
With all due respect, I think it would help, at least in the case of my accident. The corner workers can only react so fast and we FF's take that corner pretty much balls out as it is. Having a couple extra seconds to see the incident as well as having a possible escape path on the right between the track edge and the concrete barrier might, I repeat, might have saved me an expensive rebuild and a trip to the hospital.
But to Dave's point, it no doubt would be an expensive and likely disruptive project for the facility.
I am restarting my volunteering as a corner worker on Tuesday - there were some changes to the corner stations at Lime Rock for the safety of the corner workers and maybe faster cars, but the placement means taking your eyes off the corner. Especially if you were a Roos student, your eyes would be on the apex and not on a station off driver's left in a RH turn.
Luckily, most of the turns have a reasonable sightline, so with the exception of the uphill, you have some time to react.
On the other hand, grasscrete could be very helpful at Lime Rock in many places and New Hampshire also where ruts open up during a race weekend. I have also seen some tracks using rumble aprons rather that curbing to the same effect.
Chris
TBH I can't take credit for the idea of pushing back the inside wall; that was floated here last year I think by sharper minds.
If flagging was still to the standard I learned when I started into racing, as a flagger - yes, I'd agree that would be enough. But that was 25 years ago, it isn't, and as also pointed out repeatedly the flag station has been moved to a position of near insignificance.
I don't think we were actually trying to de-risk the corner, per se; otherwise yeah we'd all just run the chicane. We're trying to give a better chance of being able to look ahead and react in a timely manner to an incident.
God knows taking that corner "balls out" is not really a challenge anyway at least in my car and similar, with a surfeit of grip.
But I've definitely run afoul of areas of poor visibility on that track combined with bad flagging, as Greg well knows.
Is it really too much to ask to want to not pile into a track-blocking wreck in a blind spot with no advance warning? Just too far common at that track, in my experience. There absolutely are ways to deal with/prevent this, with good heads in control... but excuses are easier than meeting the challenge head-on.
I do appreciate hearing that Steve P. was smart enough to be aware that default waving yellows are just as dangerous/useless as waving yellows for incidents off-track, and proximity blues... too bad that is the exception, rather than the rule, when it comes to officiating. Too many officials far too removed from the cockpit/track surface...
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