Super Vee engine management system
I’m at wits end trying to make my Anson run properly. 3 different ignitions, 2 different Racetronic EFI boxes, 2 different sets of injectors and wiring looms. A new master switch and various fuel pressures. So I’m looking for suggestions on some sort of affordable (not 10k) engine management system to install on it. It was suggested to go to a mechanical injection system but even if I could find all the pieces it would be cost prohibitive. What say you?
Go see Ethan Shippert up at Sonoma. He runs Super Vees out of his shop and he can probably figure out what's going on.
Ethan has offered advice where he could. He suggested a modern system when I first started this project.
Originally Posted by Lastminuteracin
If you were closer. I am bored just had a lung biopsy.
But the first thing would be bench test the lot and look at wave forms when it was at at rpm, I have a lot of not being used test equipment.
But on need to replace there are a few projects being built on the Ardunio platform, I am hanging out there trying to learn C++ and use some of the hardware in garden.
Under a grand https://wtmtronics.com/product-category/sbems/
Then find some college kid in a SAE program and think your set.
I've been extremely happy with Microsquirt; I'm now on my second conversion from cars that were originally K-jet from the factory. Massive upgrade; both are 924's, so basically watercooled VWs, one Turbo for the street and one NA H Prod car.
That said, it may be more DIY than you prefer; this one seems to be the choice for a bit more professional install, and still quite inexpensive, almost as cheap as the Microsquirt with the MaxxECU Mini at around $700:
https://www.maxxecu.com/
Quick feature comparison:
https://www.maxxecu.com/ecu_compare
Which Microsquirt did you use? I called them earlier and was extremely pleased with the tech support guy.
Actually Rick, we have managed to send all the SV's down the road. Having fought this fight a couple times with these engines, the best success I had was with the green RT5 that is now owned by Scott Vreeland. We sent the engine to Quicksilver and had them fit a Life ECU setup to it. It started and ran like a street car after that. If a customer ever brings me one of these things again, that will be step one. "Here you go Erik, make it run please."
As I see it, the biggest issue with running SuperVees is the engines. Parts availability for things like blocks and heads are not great, and at the end of the day the perceived value of running them over an Atlantic is really a mirage. Sure the buy-in price is cheap, but the running costs aren't that much different than a Cosworth powered Atlantic. And forget ever having parity with other SuperVees on any given weekend. From wheel size, to tire size, to brake caliper and rotor choice, carbs/mechanical injection/EFI, then don't even get me started on engine displacement... it's like playing whack-a-mole. The cars have just run in too many different configurations to ever have two of the same thing ever on the grid at the same time.
Quicksilver
I agree 100%, best system going hands down.
Scott
I have the MS2, looks like - slightly older than the current/latest.
One thing I would've done differently for the racecar would be to have gotten one with built-in data logging; as it sits, I need to run the laptop in the car on track, which can be a pain, in order to live tune or log data... whereas if I could just have had the ECU capture all that on a built-in card like the MS3Pro has, it would be a bit easier to capture data and iterate on the tune.
Of course, that puts it at about the same price as the MaxxECU Mini, which has onboard logging built in... without, it's half the price for the MS3...
Oh, and I've networked it in to the AIM dash to log much of the ECU signals as we run, for when the laptop's not in the car (or not working, because technology and stuff). Yeah, so I have a 1979 racecar with a modern CAN bus retrofitted... LOL
That's just the bane if vintage isn't it? 30 years down the road when all the specialty suppliers have dried up you just have a nice chassis and a question of what to do with it. And when someone decides to supply parts, $$$$. I've seen some smart guys in the 2L sports racer community and with RT4 Atlantics ditching the BDA and its sports racer cousin for a slightly hopped up YAC and seem to be content. I think the SR is the one in Jagermeister livery.
A friend of mine has an RT5 and he says the problem is getting to be blocks - evidently they can't be re-sleeved. He has a half-dozen boat anchors sitting outside his barn. The motor he just bought is from someone other than Bertils, so all the accessory stuff is considerably different. There may be some other issues that prevents him from just swapping his old stuff over.
Had another friend with an RT3 with the Olds Pro engine in it - and he had to keep a Windows 3.1 laptop alive to keep it running.
I figure in FC and S2 we're at the point where FF was 15 years ago. Rings aren't available, too many blocks crack (still think that's a 98 and up car design problem). I doubt if Ford will swoop in and save us with any new castings. There is of course the Burton AL block at $6K to start.
Ugly stuff, that - but I think we're now at a point where aftermarket ECUs are becoming so readily available and good/easy to tune that converting over to modern EFI systems for these and plenty of other older cars is now not merely an adequate way forward to keep the cars alive and circulating, but as mentioned above they actually get far better and nicer to run and drive...
Of course, making the jump from carbs to EFI is a lot more work - maybe someone needs to come up with an easy Weber TBI unit to simplify the bolt-on operation? But if you already have injectors (even CIS, though it's more work, BTDT twice now) in an intake, then it's just installing/swapping sensors, some wiring, and then some programming and calibration...
Hmmm, maybe I need to hang out a shingle for that, it's starting to become a habit... LOL
carb to efi
We have a set of Jenvey injection Weber dcoe look throttle bodies going on a Lotus Elan. Also a Borla SU conversion going on a Late 50's Morgan.
To be fair, this is really only a problem with cars that were EFI to begin with. We can still get all the parts for the Lucas mechanical injection and Weber parts are readily available from a zillion sources. But the budget appeal for the potential SuperVee owner goes out the window if you factor in having to reimagine the EFI setup at some point in your ownership. Then if you factor in the relative lack of availability of blocks and heads for the engines, it makes the SV a tough sell.
the VW buggy community has a variety of weber-appearing throttle bodies with injectors stuck in them, but Redline makes a complete line as well, and there's the Retroject that replaces a 38/38:
http://www.redlineweber.com/SEMA2002...ottle_body.htm
https://www.webcon.co.uk/products/15...-throttle-body
My only argument against EFI is that you take a relatively simple carb system (made even simpler by race applications not needing a lot of low throttle response or cold weather starting and running) that needs only a handful of cheap parts (float, jets, some linkage and accel pump things here and there) to keep running, and replace it with a system that requires a laptop and every piece is literally a single point failure - TPS, MPS, CPS, temp sensors, fuel pressure sensor, ECU, it just goes on and on. The "spare" for EFI is essentially a complete EFI system plus pins, pin tools, crimpers......
The troubleshooting process for a carb car not starting is "do I have fuel? Do I have spark?" whereas for EFI its a complex flowchart troubleshooting tree with multiple meters and a scope or throwing parts at the thing in hopes that something will fix it.
I can see where fuel injection made sense and came out of classes and series with few restrictive engine rules. But for the club racer, it really makes little sense from a cost or performance standpoint.
I think you're grossly oversimplifying the carb'ed situation while exaggerating the EFI to prove your point - I see a spare carb missing from your list of spares, for one - and of course BOTH systems are equally susceptible to poor build quality of wiring and plumbing. Do it right the first time, or be a hack and spend your racetrack time in the paddock/pits instead of turning laps.
There's a right, efficient and professional way to do either system... and few are willing to take the time to understand what they're doing on either side of the bench, setting a bad example either way.
But once you've had a decent engine management system, and you see how amazingly consistent and accurate they are, you'll never go back to the antiquated stuff again if you have a choice...
Spare carb? Just what kind of failure requires a spare carb? I've raced my car for 23 years and never needed anything more than a float. No wiring for a carb. EFI wiring easily doubles the wiring complexity of the car. I will admit I'm not one of those guys putting in jets every weekend to grab that last HP, but the biggest "consistency" problem I've run into - cold weather drivability - is solved by taping off the carb cooling duct and properly warming the car before the first session in February.
As an electronics and systems engineer who has done wiring on weapons, stores, and aircraft I don't believe I'm exaggerating anything.
getting back to the OP...
Why not just get a reliable crank fire ignition and get some 45DCOEs? If you're not trying to yank the last 2HP out of the donk in vintage anyway? Why stress old unobtanium components unnecessarily?
To Rick's point the poet suggested "Simplify, simplify." (and that was redundant!)
Lola: When four springs just aren't enough.
I considered carbs. It would require the carbs, a different intake manifold, linkages, fuel regulator etc. yes they are probably easier to maintain but cost wise would exceed the cost of an updated ecu system.
I do agree with Ethan that SV has become a bastardized class. I however just want to run the car to the best of my ability and keep it out there for people to see. Max HP is not required. Reliability and fun is.
Last edited by Lastminuteracin; 04.17.25 at 10:05 AM.
Maxxecu
After lots of research , phone calls and discussion Maxxecu it is. The biggest selling point is the availability of local support right here in town. The install itself will take time but I’m good with that. I had to pretty much rewire the car to get it going in the first place. I really wanted to keep it period correct but that ship has sailed. The biggest fabrication issue will be to add a throttle switch. I believe I will be doing it like Quicksilver did on Scott’s car. A linear potentiometer added to the throttle linkage.
Feel free to hit me up with a pic of your throttle body... never say never...
Somewhat along the lines with responding to Rich's earlier point - which I didn't want to use to take the thread further off-point - with these systems you usually get to choose what sensors you use. In some parts, you can be limited by the existing architecture/hardware of the engine as-is; in some, you can get just a little creative with adapter bracket/mounts or fittings, if you have a little fab capability - which most who play with formula cars for sure have - and pick much more common, cheap, and readily available sensors.
Thus, while I have a somewhat unusual coolant temp sensor on my 924s, because as a BMW part it's a bolt-in for the stock unneeded thermo-time switch, I have a bone-generic GM intake temp sensor and MAP sensor that can be sourced from any local parts store.
Likewise my ignition coil is now a VW 4-tower coil as found on most modern VWs.
Don't need to carry spares when your parts are ubiquitous.
For the TPS, I've used the same Bosch TPS... but rather than an expensive and rare Porsche 944 part, which was an option, I made an adapter plate to mount a much cheaper and more common Volvo part.
Oh, of course added bonus production Bosch Delphi etc sensors tend to be more robust than unusual and pricey racecar parts, if you have the option to specify...
I would wonder if some similar TPS could be fitted to the Supervee, but I don't have a good mental picture of the relevant throttle body...
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