Treaded to Slicks

[Jonathan Lee]

I was also in that Zoom meeting but I didn't get the same impression. Although a guy from a separate west coast series discussed his groups usage of non FF-spec tires, a tire change wasn't on the agenda and isn't a current point of discussion in the FF-USA group.
The main take-aways form his discussion for me was how his group grew through email contacts, FB and online posts. This drove potential member engagement. This is what the meeting is about to me - reaching out to FF racers, past and present, inviting them to the SCCA Majors and offering help and camaraderie at the event. I can say with certainty that I will go to my first Majors events in 2025 for the first time in many years! I appreciate Tony's enthusiasm and enjoy talking FF with like-minded racers.

Our weekly Thursday meetings have been fun! I want to work on supporting the future of the FF class.
Let's put our energy to good use, and work on things that are productive

[Larry H]

I was also in that Zoom meeting but I didn't get the same impression. Although a guy from a separate west coast series discussed his groups usage of non FF-spec tires, a tire change wasn't on the agenda and isn't a current point of discussion in the FF-USA group.
The main take-aways form his discussion for me was how his group grew through email contacts, FB and online posts. This drove potential member engagement. This is what the meeting is about to me - reaching out to FF racers, past and present, inviting them to the SCCA Majors and offering help and camaraderie at the event. I can say with certainty that I will go to my first Majors events in 2025 for the first time in many years! I appreciate Tony's enthusiasm and enjoy talking FF with like-minded racers.

Yes, how to grow the Majors was the topic of the call and of the utmost priority. I did feel that it was worthy of putting out what one series position on tires was. Eric Little from the Formula Ford The Series explained why they run the bias slick and why they don't run the radial or the VFF. Also from the SCCA side, maybe not as strongly, they liked the radial slick and were negative about treaded tires (VFF). I think the Vintage and Club crowd are just as vociferous about the VFF and have good reasons for supporting the VFF.

[E1pix]

This will not attract new people to our class, you know the type of people who watch F1 and want to get into racing because they've always wanted to do it, and want to race a Formula Car with racing slicks - just like the F1 car that they cheer on every weekend.

If what you’re suggesting is that expensive slicks should be *the* priority — compared to filling grids with people who otherwise couldn’t afford to be there at all — you’d be massively mistaken.

Anyone who wouldn’t race at all solely because of not running slicks, in the interest of pretending to be Max, already don’t understand the spirit of sport. At all.

[rockbeau25]

I don’t have a horse in this race, but why not consider using the bias ply like FC? It’s still a slick for the people that care about optics, but doesn’t require the extreme camber that the old cars aren’t capable of. It’s a great tire, and we still get some old Reynards and Van Diemens that come out to race and do well.

[Jonathan Lee]

If what you’re suggesting is that expensive slicks should be *the* priority — compared to filling grids with people who otherwise couldn’t afford to be there at all — you’d be massively mistaken.

Anyone who wouldn’t race at all solely because of not running slicks, in the interest of pretending to be Max, already don’t understand the spirit of sport. At all.

Hi E1pix,

The R60 radial is a great tire that will last 20 sessions with minimal drop off.

I can use this tire for 3 weekends that are 3 days each, and I might lose anywhere between .5 to 1 second after 16+ sessions of use.

Tire bills do not get much cheaper than this. Unfortunately, the truth of the matter is - people enjoy FF racing because the car has incredible handling. By switching the tire to something that is low grip, you compromise the handling of the car, and take away much of the attractiveness of the class.

And before anyone say's "oh they use threaded tires in england". The ACB10 is a soft tire, with grooves in it. Many English teams use 2 sets of tires per weekend, their tire bill isn't any cheaper. The historic cars in England also use threaded tires, but it is not the ACB10 model, it is something much harder.

One of the arguments I saw was that the lap times were closer in England between an old and new car. This is not a good comparison, the tracks in England turn a 50 second lap, many tracks in the U.S are between 90 seconds and 150 seconds, using lap time difference between old and new cars, threaded vs slicks, is invalid when comparing the American tracks to English tracks.

[Jonathan Lee]

I don’t have a horse in this race, but why not consider using the bias ply like FC? It’s still a slick for the people that care about optics, but doesn’t require the extreme camber that the old cars aren’t capable of. It’s a great tire, and we still get some old Reynards and Van Diemens that come out to race and do well.

Hi Rockbeau,

That is a much better suggestion!

Any car post DB1 era should be fine with the required camber for radial tires, some may need to buy longer rod ends or get the surface of their upright machined. It is a relatively cheap and easy upgrade to transform DB1 or later car to be radial ready.

Look at Kotyk!

Remember non-radial tires require a lot more time on the scale pad! They are also troublesome due to inconsistency. I guess the grass is always greener on the other side...

[John LaRue]

Any changes have to be initiated through the letter system and FSRAC.

My personal observation (not speaking on behalf of the CRB) on the spec tire program is that if the Hoosier VFF tire was an option (not the sole spec tire) it might help to bring out the CFF cars that otherwise are not legal in FF. I would not advocate for elimination of the spec tire as it seems to me that has worked quite well.

The VFF tire is reportedly considerably slower than the spec radial so it wouldn't seem likely to create a situation where a competitor would be evaluating which tire they needed to use to be most competitive at a given track. In other words, if you want to win you will likely need to be running the spec radial. If you just want to race amongst other FF's or CFF's the VFF tire may be your ticket.

By allowing the Hoosier bias tire which is "comparable" to the Hoosier radial you would introduce a new variable that would likely increase costs or at least uncertainty neither of which is good. Which tire is best on a particular track or under specific conditions? What about the rain tire? Is the radial or bias the best choice? While the radial and bias may be very similar, they aren't the same so why not also allow the Goodyear bias tire as well? Can I run fronts on the rear if I run the bias tires? When we had an open tire rule in FF both Hoosier and Goodyear were very similar in performance, and either could win on any given day. To be fast you tested everything and every compound.

The question that we need to answer is will enough FF cars come out to race in 2025 and years beyond to keep the class afloat? Can FF hit the 5.0 average to earn a Runoffs invitation or is that of importance? Will the class or value of the FF cars suffer if they lose the Runoffs invitation?

Also, if the VFF tire is allowed will those CFF cars (an others who are advocating for the tire) actually show up at SCCA Majors races or jut find another excuse not to participate? If they can't compete for the overall win will that be a reason to stay home?

I am very impressed with all of the efforts being put forth in FF and FC and hope that it will produce the needed entries. Keep up the good work!

Remember non-radial tires require a lot more time on the scale pad! They are also troublesome due to inconsistency. I guess the grass is always greener on the other side...

Actually, the current Hoosier FC bias tires are very consistent and are as easy to swap in and out as the radial.

John

[teamwisconsin]

Some points, perhaps salient. The first 3 are factual, the 4th is my editorial:

1. The radial is not a “high grip” tire. It was brought in (with much grumbling by folks who argued the class would lose “relevance”) to be a hard compound, low grip, long life tire.

2. Formula F is by its very definition an outdated formula. A steel tube frame, stock block engine, h pattern gearbox with the gears behind the axle, steel brake rotors, etc. These are not cutting edge technologies. They are however, cost saving items, JUST like an all weather treaded tire is. The “modern” FF distinction is dubious and Kotyk himself proved that this past Runoffs. I do not say this in a derogatory way, but to think that our cars are relevant in today’s world is foolish. I love Formula F. But I love it BECAUSE it’s outdated. Drive a current F3 or F4 car and tell me you wouldn’t choose an “outdated” FF. Modern spec formula cars have all the flavor of a mayonnaise sandwich on white bread.

3. The lap time difference between the radial and the treaded tires is not that great. I have driven a Kent powered DB1 at Sonoma on VFF treads within .5 sec of the radial tire lap record. Admittedly Sonoma is just one track so this isn’t a universal statement, but it is by all admissions a “handling” track.

4. I have been hired to drive over 150 different racecars in the past few years. From smallbore sedans to TransAm, FF, FV, FC, FA, F1, LMP, DP, XYZ… cars with h pattern gearboxes, sequentials, paddle shift, non synchro prewar boxes, disc brake, drum brakes, flat bottoms, tunnels, sliding skirts, and so on. Lots of FF’s on bias slicks, radial slicks, bias treads. Personally, I‘d choose treads every time. The driving experience is so superior to the radials, this is the #1 reason why I have not come back to SCCA to race my own FF. I actually view the radials as a step down to the treads, not the other way around.

[Garey Guzman]

Lots of good points about the tire differences but they aren't really related to the Original Post of this thread. Changing the tire spec isn't something that would happen for the 2025 season anyway so I'm confused why this is being pressed so hard.

If someone is interested in making changes, John LaRue already mentioned how to initiate action. Beating the horse here hasn't really moved the needle.

[Jake King]

If bias ply slicks were brought back on the National level, I'd enter in my CF as an FF at the Jersey Majors and give it a go. I'd imagine many others around the country would consider running their local Majors if the bias ply slicks were made allowable again. The treaded bias plys would arguably be the best alternative to level the playing field for all. If the goal is to drive entries, that might be a pretty effective avenue to do so. Just my $0.02.

[mboian90]

Any changes have to be initiated through the letter system and FSRAC.

My personal observation (not speaking on behalf of the CRB) on the spec tire program is that if the Hoosier VFF tire was an option (not the sole spec tire) it might help to bring out the CFF cars that otherwise are not legal in FF. I would not advocate for elimination of the spec tire as it seems to me that has worked quite well.

The VFF tire is reportedly considerably slower than the spec radial so it wouldn't seem likely to create a situation where a competitor would be evaluating which tire they needed to use to be most competitive at a given track. In other words, if you want to win you will likely need to be running the spec radial. If you just want to race amongst other FF's or CFF's the VFF tire may be your ticket.

...

Also, if the VFF tire is allowed will those CFF cars (an others who are advocating for the tire) actually show up at SCCA Majors races or jut find another excuse not to participate? If they can't compete for the overall win will that be a reason to stay home?

I am very impressed with all of the efforts being put forth in FF and FC and hope that it will produce the needed entries. Keep up the good work!

John

John, I submitted letter #37557 asking for specifically the Hoosier tire from the Crossflow Cup to be added to the FF rules. I dont know anyone on the FSRAC to contact them directly but if they want or need more information I can get it. I have never run the tire but can track down people to pull data from.

Being new to CF, what adjustments do I need to make to the car to go from Vintage treaded tires to slicks?

Thanks

When I swapped on my 1996 Piper I reset the ride height and adjusted the camber. I run the front around -2.8* and the rear at around -2.3*. The biggest camber change was on the rear which used to be around -0.5*.

The front was all done with the inboard lower rod ends and the shims. On the rear, I remade the upper block to be 1/8" shorter. I could have easily machined the upright or the old block like Johnathan mentioned to accomplish the same thing. The Piper part is pretty simple, if others are similar I would gladly make one or do the machining modification for just material cost. I do it as a hobby though so if you are reading this in 2030 you missed your chance

Matt Boian

[APEowner]

For what little it's worth. Having to buy a set of tires for my CF that I can't run with the sanctioning bodies that I already run with for one or two SCCA events is a deterrent for me. Allowing the use of the Hoosier VFF tire would eliminate one of the factors that are currently making running with the SCCA not particularly enticing.

Just some more input from a member of one of the groups that you're trying to attract.

[mboian90]

For what little it's worth. Having to buy a set of tires for my CF that I can't run with the sanctioning bodies that I already run with for one or two SCCA events is a deterrent for me. Allowing the use of the Hoosier VFF tire would eliminate one of the factors that are currently making running with the SCCA not particularly enticing.

Just some more input from a member of one of the groups that you're trying to attract.

My proposal to the CRB was directly to support people in that position. The entire letter is below for full transparity. All are welcome to submit letters in support (edit: or disgust ).

-------
Hello,

I would like to request the addition of the current Hoosier treaded vintage tire to the existing FF rules. The intent is to allow for existing FF or CFF cars that dont have the adjustment range to use the current radial tire or drivers who currently race vintage to to race US Majors races with the entries counting towards the FF class.

The VFF tire is generally reported to be considerably slower than the spec radial so it wouldn't seem likely to create a situation where a competitor would be evaluating which tire they needed to use to be most competitive at a given track. In other words, if you want to win you will likely need to be running the spec radial. This maintains the intent of the spec tire rule but allows for more crossover and participation in the class.

While CFF already exists at the regional level and is allowed at some/most majors events, those entries of otherwise complaint FF cars does not count towards the FF participation tracking because of the tire choice. While not relevant to all races or areas of the country, not including these participation numbers does not reflect the full health of the FF community.

To keep with the Hoosier commercial deal for FF tires, I would propose the added tires would only be the treaded Hoosier tire that is currently used in the Crossflow Cup series which are:

Front - Hoosier VFF 44165, 135/545-13
Rear - Hoosier VFF 44170, 165/580-13

Thank you for your consideration,

Matt Boian

[Jonathan Lee]

Wow, there seems to be much confusion here:

1. The thread seems to not agree on the speed difference between the radial and the VFF tire. Is it a lot slower (+5 seconds), a little slower 2 seconds, or exactly the same speed (couple of tenths). By the varying answers on this thread and other threads, there is no clear answer.

2. How long does the VFF tire last? Some people say 6 weekends, others say 1-2. weekends. Based on some of the replies, it leads me to think that the drop of is worse than the radials.


3. This is the one that many of the current SCCA FF drivers might have an issue with.

A) Does the vintage group want to make the VFF tire the new spec tire?

B) Does the vintage group want to make the VFF tire an additional option to the radial?

Many current SCCA drivers will be heavily upset with option A. I cannot imagine that option B will be a negative, and will probably be the best solution to keep and expand the "main core of major drivers" in addition to "vintage drivers" who don't mind attending their local major.

One thing that some of you might not realize- is that the radial tire is very similar if not the same to the SRF3 tire, which Hoosier will continue to buy and replace tire making equipment for. The demand for Bias construction tire is becoming less and less every year in the automotive world. The racing community needs to keep the radial tire involved in all classes to survive, there will be a time and place where a manufacture isn't selling enough of a certain tire, and when their equipment breaks - they will not want to replace it. That class who only allowed bias tires, will have to scramble to find a new available tire and change the rules for it; a period of time like this could literally kill a class...

[mboian90]

Hi Johnathan,

Though not a vintage guy, I was pursuing option B. I didnt see negative to the submission to the letter system. To me, the probable outcomes in order are:

1) We get told "no", nothing changes and we can go back to arguing

2) Vintage tire is allowed, is slow, and we get a few additional FF entries out of convenience

3) Vintage tire is allowed, is similar to the radial, and we have good racing.

Ethan's data point is interesting one. My assumption is that because most FF/CFF drivers (me included, obviously) dont have his skill level, the difference ends up being more pronounced. This would explain the other observations. If the FSRAC want to look at data, I would pull it together.

Matt Boian

[teamwisconsin]

Wow, there seems to be much confusion here:
1. The thread seems to not agree on the speed difference between the radial and the VFF tire. Is it a lot slower (+5 seconds), a little slower 2 seconds, or exactly the same speed (couple of tenths). By the varying answers on this thread and other threads, there is no clear answer.

It's because we are comparing apples to oranges. Most all of the folks running on the VFF are doing so in a pre-81 FF. The DB1 I was referring to, while not "current" is closer to being considered a modern FF than say a 1968 Merlyn. Even the best historic or club FF drivers in the country will be several seconds slower than a Mygale/Piper/Spectrum/Van Diemen/Swift/etc. This speaks more to the age of the car than the ultimate grip of the tire.

2. How long does the VFF tire last? Some people say 6 weekends, others say 1-2. weekends. Based on some of the replies, it leads me to think that the drop of is worse than the radials.

Much like the radials, this depends on who you ask. Locally here in Crossflow Cup, we have some drivers who will opt for a new set every few weekends, but our fastest guys are able to run the tire down to the cords with no appreciable drop off in laptime. If pushed for an answer, I would say the average is 2-3 sets per season. (A season being 6-8 race weekends with 2-3 test days)

Many current SCCA drivers will be heavily upset with option A. I cannot imagine that option B will be a negative, and will probably be the best solution to keep and expand the "main core of major drivers" in addition to "vintage drivers" who don't mind attending their local major.

I do not say this to mock or make light of the situation, but I think you are talking a much smaller pool of drivers for SCCA these days. That's why we are in this mess. The various Historic FF groups around the country are routinely getting 30+ car fields. I do not think is hyperbole to say that all 4 areas by themselves (Eastern, Central, Rockies and Western) wouldn't struggle to put 50 cars on a grid for a special event. I don't think I'm too far off to wager the Runoffs FF grid has averaged around 12 cars for the past 10 years. (I didn't do the math so this next stat should have an asterisk) Clearly you have more to gain than lose here.

There is no perfect solution. No answer to this problem that won't alienate SOMEONE. That's the problem with governing a group of strong minded individuals who all have a lot tied up in their "investments" (a dubious term for any racecar!). I think opening the grid up to the Monoposto rules of treaded tires would bring us more in line with the rest of the world, could open up lots of potential new racers with SCCA, and maybe in time the handful of guys left in SCCA would see the beauty in changing over to the treads. This topic could be then be revisited in a season or two. In any case, allowing the treads as an optional tire would only help the SCCA situation.

One thing that some of you might not realize- is that the radial tire is very similar if not the same to the SRF3 tire, which Hoosier will continue to buy and replace tire making equipment for. The demand for Bias construction tire is becoming less and less every year in the automotive world. The racing community needs to keep the radial tire involved in all classes to survive...

One thing you might not realize Jonathan, is that vintage/historic racing is thriving (especially compared to anything non-Miata based in SCCA). Call up Dave Handy at Sasco or call up Brandon Kraus at Roger Kraus Racing tire. Ask them how many radials vs bias tires they sell in a year. Tire companies will make whatever they can sell. If there continues to be demand, real demand, for bias tires then Hoosier/Goodyear/Avon/whoever will keep making bias ply tires indefinitely. Fear-mongering doesn't do anything positive here.

[Jonathan Lee]

Thanks for your reply TeamWisconsin, the information was helpful.

I do not see why you accused me of fear-mongering. I have brought up very realistic issues and future problems that are likely to happen with drastic rule changes.

I'm getting the feeling that many of you do not appreciate my inputs. As someone who is probably more invested than most in this class, I think I have very valid points.

My interest is only in the best intention of helping the class that I love, the class that I've grew up with, and the class that I see as potentially being once again- one of the most popular formula car classes for club racing (if we play our cards right).

Since many people on this website seem to be so locked in- on what they believe in, and won't listen to input that is more than level-headed; I think I will just walk away from most of Apexspeed.

[stonebridge20]

Thanks for your reply TeamWisconsin, the information was helpful.

I do not see why you accused me of fear-mongering. I have brought up very realistic issues and future problems that are likely to happen with drastic rule changes.

I'm getting the feeling that many of you do not appreciate my inputs. As someone who is probably more invested than most in this class, I think I have very valid points.

My interest is only in the best intention of helping the class that I love, the class that I've grew up with, and the class that I see as potentially being once again- one of the most popular formula car classes for club racing (if we play our cards right).

Since many people on this website seem to be so locked in- on what they believe in, and won't listen to input that is more than level-headed; I think I will just walk away from most of Apexspeed.

Unfortunately the status quo in SCCA FF isn't working obviously.

Drastic changes are needed.

I think that the SCCA/FRP crowd seriously needs to look at the VFF tire which is just an R60 with treads.

The VFF is a heck of a lot more fun on a FF than slicks.

If SVRA seems to have no problems with Vintage, Club and modern FF's all running the VFF's then why would SCCA/FRP ?

[CGOffroad]

What is the cost of a set of the slick radial? What is the cost of a set of the vintage tires?

[stonebridge20]

What is the cost of a set of the slick radial? What is the cost of a set of the vintage tires?

If I remember correctly, the VFF tires are $1070 a set.
I haven't bought a set in two years because I'm not down to the cords yet on the set I have now.

All my Vintage FF customers get atleast a year out of a set of VFF's which is typically 7-9 sessions an event times 5 events.

[scott fairchild]

Mike,

I'm going through the VFF faster than most (the 2016 versions lasted longer). The last 3 sets have lasted me 4 weekends (5-6 sessions per weekend) before falling off more than 0.5- 1.0 second/ lap. So that's about 20 heat cycles of upfront punishment. With more empathy, 6 weekends is very reasonable. IMO, they're not at peak grip until at least the 3rd heat cycle.

FWIW, there were 25+ Formula FORDS at RRR this past weekend. Most were really quick, a couple were in the 1:15.xxx range in almost 50 year old equipment. SE region SCCA can only dream of those numbers. The VFF (and Monoposto) tire rule is the most significant equalizer.

People are worried about the $ they've put into developing the slick setups. They made a bet on a losing option for the class (many saw it at the time). Now they can't understand when to cut bait. Double or nothing

[Jake King]

The difference between the bias play slicks and treads in pace is a window of 1-2 seconds depending on conditions and session length. I have no experience on the radial in an FF so I can't compare. I do however have experience on the radial in multiple SRF3 races. Tires play a huge factor in pace and wear rather quickly when you're running at the front.

I've found that the treaded tire is just as durable, if not more durable, than the bias ply slick. You can stay competitive with a tire that has 6 heat cycles vs. a tire that is brand new from my observations. Could be a viable solution if guys with modern FF's are willing to at least try the VFF at a regional or a test session. We need data from guys currently running at the National level if we want to make any headway towards to universal tire for all eras of FF.

Change to VFF would create better racing and be easier on the pockets since you don't need new shoes every race to fight for a win. After all, this is our hobby. I respect everyone running at a high level in FF, but we need to realize we're doing this for fun and want to sustain the class. Cheaper budget for tires and closer racing seems like a pretty strong selling point to me. FF is a stronghold in the history of the Club and deserves to remain. Depends on us, the competitors, to steer the Club in the right direction. Let's keep an open mind and consider it.

[Larry H]

The difference between the bias play slicks and treads in pace is a window of 1-2 seconds depending on conditions and session length. I have no experience on the radial in an FF so I can't compare. I do however have experience on the radial in multiple SRF3 races. Tires play a huge factor in pace and wear rather quickly when you're running Speaking with an experienced local racer local racerWe've found that the treaded tire is just as durable, if not more durable, than the bias ply slick. You can stay competitive with a tire that has 6 heat cycles vs. a tire that is brand new from my observations. Could be a viable solution if guys with modern FF's are willing to at least try the VFF at a regional or a test session. We need data from guys currently running at the National level if we want to make any headway towards to universal tire for all eras of FF.

Change to VFF would create better racing and be easier on the pockets since you don't need new shoes every race to fight for a win. After all, this is our hobby. I respect everyone running at a high level in FF, but we need to realize we're doing this for fun and want to sustain the class. Cheaper budget for tires and closer racing seems like a pretty strong selling point to me. FF is a stronghold in the history of the Club and deserves to remain. Depends on us, the competitors, to steer the Club in the right direction. Let's keep an open mind and consider it.

This information is from an experienced local racer and lap time data. We see similar differences in time but more like 2 to 2.5 seconds on fast tracks and 3.5 sec on tracks that have more turns. The VFF tire last twice as long as the bias ply slick, two weekends on the VFF one weekend with slicks, 12 and 6 heat cycles, respectively. We also suspect that the drop off is less with the VFF tire.

[Steve Davis]

This is not a change with all positives. Sure you might gain a few vintage people because of the tire - let's say 20 for the year.

The question is how many current active "Major Racers" are going to stop showing up because of the tire. It seems we are very split on this topic. It almost seems like more than 70% of the modern FF racers do not want anything to do with treaded vintage tires.

Imagine if we lose 50% of our current active FF drivers at majors, because of this change....

I can't imagine why ANY MAJORS FF driver would object to allowing cars that are .. say 4 seconds slower into their class/group. It would boost group counts and should not "bother" (much) cars that are on the FASTER tires. Considering all that is going on these days with COSTS, anyone that doesn't thing that is a good idea must be OUT OF TOUCH with today's realities. You don't need to have "anything to DO with treaded tires" to allow them to run in your group/class. If you can't "pass them at will", .. well.. I won't go further with that....

Steve, FV80

[RideMore]

Steve, I believe your right in that 99% of the current FF drivers on the radials wouldn't mind if the tire rule included the treaded vintage Hoosier (all change is hard for some). More the merrier and it really fun to see a bigger variety of chassis on track.

Jonathan and I have talked on the phone on this topic. On the phone he has not objection to drivers running those tire in the FF group. At least as long as the radials are also still allowed. But as a young competive guy who's very focused on winning, he doesn't see why anyone would bother showing up with them. Some day, he'll buy in once the first hair fall out or gray one shows up and thinks "you know, it's just fun to be on a fun track with a fun car. Especially if someone around my speed also shows up".

Two things:
1. I've found the Jonathan listens and is willing to change his mind on all maters of importance when presented the evidence (us engineers can do that. Some of us, sometimes).
2. I sincerely hope that the Vintage treaded hoosier is allowed on FF, and right now. And I hope that does move the needle on entries since it would make every race more fun.

[Larry H]

???

I know many of the vintage guys are against running with the SCCA and prefer other vintage clubs like SVRA.

So how would forcing modern FF to use vintage tires help anything? If the SCCA and FRP said tommorow - no more radials, instead we are running VFF tires, how would that help the entries within the SCCA and FRP?

People with vintage cars want to race against other vintage cars. Why would someone in a 50 year old car want to race against kids in modern equipment?

The Vintage crowd and the SCCA/FRP crowd are completely different. Mixing the two would be like serving Tyson Chicken Nuggets at a Fancy Restaurant, it just doesn't make sense. Both are tasty, but each have their own time and place..

It just doesn't make sense that a tire change to VFF would help car count at the Majors and FRP.

The current challenge is to boost the the SCCA Majors numbers, these numbers will not change because the pool of cars is only 64. That is a tiny tiny number and will not grow significantly in the next few years. The only other pool for quickly boosting Majors numbers is to draw from the local driver pool, which in general run bias ply tires, predominately VFF and to make more cars equal. Who knows, if the tire bill can held down, some of these local drivers may end up eventually racing at the Run-Offs. We need to get the numbers up not just for SCCA sake but to grow FF market for all.

On another note; The notion that the local VFF drivers are so enamored with SCCA, they would be happy tooling around on uncompetitive VFFs while others are on blasting around on slicks is ridiculous. This thinking sort of says something.

[AlanVDW]

I entered my Club Ford at a National event at Pocono way back. That was a mistake. To quote a fellow racer, "I got my ass handed to me".
Another downside for my regional level Club Ford is the need to purchase the now required Flagtronic system. I really didn't want to have to purchase the FIA rain light. Save money on tires, but spend it on more equipment and a bigger entry fee to drive around at the back of the field? I could enter a Major to boost the numbers. The car is capable, but I don't think I'm fast enough.

[stonebridge20]

I entered my Club Ford at a National event at Pocono way back. That was a mistake. To quote a fellow racer, "I got my ass handed to me".
Another downside for my regional level Club Ford is the need to purchase the now required Flagtronic system. I really didn't want to have to purchase the FIA rain light. Save money on tires, but spend it on more equipment and a bigger entry fee to drive around at the back of the field? I could enter a Major to boost the numbers. The car is capable, but I don't think I'm fast enough.

Treadway finished 10th in the 2004 Runoffs at Mid Ohio in your car on equal tires to the 35+ other "modern" FF's

Pocono being the most full throttle track I've ever run, probably is a bad comparison of CF and FF times.
At tracks like Summit Point or Thompson, the times would be MUCH closer on equal tires.

CF's and Vintage FF's regularly beat quite a few "modern" FF's on the VFF tire in SVRA and other vintage Org's that mandate the VFF tire on all cars.

[Larry H]

I thought that since this thread had a lot of good discussion about FF tires that this should be reposted here.

This is a repost from Tony Stefanelli: Formula F/1600 Racing USA

We are finalizing the idea and hopefully the wording of a FF tire rule change in the ZOOM call tomorrow night. We really hope to capture the wishes of this team. Please participate if you care about this topic. The ZOOM Address is now in the about section, but also here:


https://us05web.zoom.us/j/8201314112...E2YweV8a3HBw.1

Meeting ID: 820 1314 1123

Passcode: G5G7wm

If you are having trouble with the above link go the "Formula F/1600 Racing USA" Facebook page. The link is also there.

Larry

[RideMore]

CFF drivers, we are inviting you to the FF weekly ZOOM meeting tomorrow, Thursday the 23rd at 9:00 EST.

Topic: Tire rules for FF and CFF.

We have been working close with the SCCA and the most active members of the Formula F USA group. We have exciting news to share and a couple important decisions to make. They are calling or emailing me daily asking what we want - we need to decide as a team and let them know. If you want to make a difference and progress as a member of the team, this is the place and time. We want to keep it to an hour, so we need to be courteous and focused.

Sorry for the late notice - new news has arrived today and we need to act now or loose the window. Not really new news - a new realization that the landscape has changed, but the window to capitalize is short.

All the opinions from this thread and others have been collated into a proposal that we will review. I suspect you will deem it good enough and a big improvement over the current rules package. But we won't know until the ZOOM.

(https://us05web.zoom.us/j/82013141123...))
Meeting ID: 820 1314 1123
Passcode: G5G7wm

[Joefisherff]

Jonathan,

Please continue to add your 2 cents, you are respected member of the community and your input is valued. The beauty of Apexspeed is that it always has spirited debate with respect and we all passionate about our sport and only want the best for it.

Thanks for your reply TeamWisconsin, the information was helpful.

I do not see why you accused me of fear-mongering. I have brought up very realistic issues and future problems that are likely to happen with drastic rule changes.

I'm getting the feeling that many of you do not appreciate my inputs. As someone who is probably more invested than most in this class, I think I have very valid points.

My interest is only in the best intention of helping the class that I love, the class that I've grew up with, and the class that I see as potentially being once again- one of the most popular formula car classes for club racing (if we play our cards right).

Since many people on this website seem to be so locked in- on what they believe in, and won't listen to input that is more than level-headed; I think I will just walk away from most of Apexspeed.

[Larry H]

Although this thread has veered off course, this is probably the best place to put this.

Last weekend I ran with VARA at Willow Spring, CA on the Hoosier VFF tire for the first time. We had 14 FF, spread across 3 classes, I ran with the Modern FF class. The car was setup with much softer rear springs, maybe too soft. The driving feedback was much better than Toyos and a bit better than the Hoosier R60 bias slicks. Maybe characterizing the VFF as more forgiving of all the tires being used today is a better characterization, which is a good attribute for amateur racing.

A really interesting data point is the winner of both Sat and Sun Main, ran 29 heat cycle tires on Sat and new on Sunday and the lap times were comparative. The wind at Willow is crazy and impacts lap time, so "comparative" is only possible.

VARA FF rules dictate Hoosier VFF tires and Avon. Most everyone runs Hoosier VFF except for one.

[stonebridge20]

Although this thread has veered off course, this is probably the best place to put this.

Last weekend I ran with VARA at Willow Spring, CA on the Hoosier VFF tire for the first time. We had 14 FF, spread across 3 classes, I ran with the Modern FF class. The car was setup with much softer rear springs, maybe too soft. The driving feedback was much better than Toyos and a bit better than the Hoosier R60 bias slicks. Maybe characterizing the VFF as more forgiving of all the tires being used today is a better characterization, which is a good attribute for amateur racing.

A really interesting data point is the winner of both Sat and Sun Main, ran 29 heat cycle tires on Sat and new on Sunday and the lap times were comparative. The wind at Willow is crazy and impacts lap time, so "comparative" is only possible.

The winner was on which 29 heat cycle tires?
VFF's
R60's?

[Larry H]

The winner was on which 29 heat cycle tires?
VFF's
R60's?

The VARA FF rules dictate essentially VFF but there is a grandfather clause for Avons. The winner was on Hoosier VFF.

[old 59]

That’s A LOT of heat cycles!

[tstrong]

So i am the guy being talked about at willow and yes the tires i won on sat had 28 heat cycles on them and were purchased in august of last year. The times were about .7s slower than my fastest ever lap on vff’s at willow and definitely had more to do with the windy conditions than the tire grip. The only reason i didn't use those same tires sun is that they only had 3 of the 5 treads visible. I have found that the dropoff due to cycles is minimal and it is just how fast you wear them down to minimal/ n o tread. BTW that fastest ever lap i have run at willow on the vff’s was on tires that had around 15 heat cycles (dont recall exact cycles but definitely a bunch). Todd

[Roland V. Johnson]

I will never understand why so many people do not undestand that the Hoosier VFF tires are the best thing going for Formula Ford. Saving money while staying competetive will bring entries, and you do not need rain tires either.

[scott fairchild]

I will never understand why so many people do not undestand that the Hoosier VFF tires are the best thing going for Formula Ford. Saving money while staying competetive will bring entries, and you do not need rain tires either.

Spot on Roland! "You can lead a horse to water..."

[Messenger Racing]

And they are now legal in SCCA majors - so everyone that loves FF and loves the VFF or the Bias R60 - We heard you!

Formula F USA pushed to make the tire legal. SCCA strongly supported our push to legalize the VFF and the Bias R60. Now we all need to show up on our preferred tire. It is up to FF drivers to follow through by actually showing up.

I for one am looking at adding a mid 80's car to the stable for a little variety.

A new era of "all inclusive FF" is here. RaceDog is pulling for FF Festival events welcoming all comers.